Alfa Romeo Sets Lexus As Quality Benchmark

[Levi]

Light commercial vehicles seem to be an important category in Europe with all brands offering them in their lineups. Yet, LCVs do not seem to be lucrative enough, as there are few automakers producing the full lineup of small, medium and large LCVs. Ford produces a full lineup, as does Renault and now Stellantis.

But, surprisingly, VW no longer produces a full lineup, selling a re-badged MB Sprinter as its large van. Also, MB does not produce a small van, selling a re-badged Renault Kangoo as its small van.

The Europeans seem to be LCV experts, especially of the large vans; in North America, GM is the lone holdout without a European-designed unibody large van.

In light of this, I guess it is not surprising that Toyota has extended its agreement with PSA Group (Peugeot & Citroën) -- and now Stellantis -- to sell re-badged LCVs (Toyota ProAce City (small) in ICE and EV versions, Toyota ProAce (medium) in ICE and EV versions, and (I assume) re-badged Fiat Ducato (large) in EV version). It must be so much easier for Toyota to cooperate with a European automaker for LCVs (read cheaper and so more profitable) than to try to export something from Japan.

Even mid sized pickup trucks are getting dwindling. Next Nissan will be the same a Mitsubishi, Renault and Mercedes stopped their rebadged version, and VW Amarok will now be a rebodied Ford Ranger. With Isuzu D-Max (now not built in cooperation with GM), there will be only 4 makers in Europe: Isuzu, Nissan/Mitsubishi, Ford/VW and Toyota.

 

[maiaramdan]

Yes, like what GM did with those bad ignition switches. In order to save a few cents on each one, GM bought substandard ones from suppliers.

Still remembering those days, and Ford with Bridgestone tires

 

[mikeavelli]

It's not hard to build Toyota quality cars - you just dial up the rejection threshold. The hard part is doing it economically. I actually expect Alfa Romeo to achieve Lexus quality, and then go bankrupt and axed by FCA in a year or two. Toyota quality does not just happen in the plant. It's built into the entire supply chain.

It is hard. Because brands hire ex Toyota and Lexus employees to improve their quality. Let’s not forget Porsche got help from Toyota in the 1990s.

 

[CRSKTN]

It's not hard to build Toyota quality cars -

You should know better.

 

[ssun30]

You should know better.

Quoting one sentence and ignoring the context.

In the very next sentence I said it's impossible to do it at scale economically.

 

[Sulu]

It's not hard to build Toyota quality cars - you just dial up the rejection threshold. The hard part is doing it economically. I actually expect Alfa Romeo to achieve Lexus quality, and then go bankrupt and axed by FCA in a year or two. Toyota quality does not just happen in the plant. It's built into the entire supply chain.

I agree but would like to add that before dialing up the rejection threshold, the automaker and its suppliers must learn to design and build (yes, a multi-step process) high quality product, otherwise they will be rejecting large numbers of components, leading eventually to bankruptcy.

"Quality cannot be inspected and tested into a product, it must be built into the product."

 

[Sulu]

Still remembering those days, and Ford with Bridgestone tires

As I understand it, the problem with the exploding Firestone tires on Ford Explorers was not because of poor quality tires, but because Ford had specified tire pressures that were too low. Underinflated tires led to overheating which led to tire treads peeling off tires.

If Ford had specified proper, higher tire pressures, the problem would not have occurred.

 

[IS-SV]

As I understand it, the problem with the exploding Firestone tires on Ford Explorers was not because of poor quality tires, but because Ford had specified tire pressures that were too low. Underinflated tires led to overheating which led to tire treads peeling off tires.

If Ford had specified proper, higher tire pressures, the problem would not have occurred.

As I understand it, Ford underspec-ed lightweight tires as a cheap and easy way to achieve fuel economy goals. Then they set an unusually low load capacity limit that most owners were not aware, so these vehicles were often run by families in "overloaded" state.

If Ford engineering had actually done their job properly and ethically, the problem would not have occurred.

 

[Smychavo]

I'd love to see Alfa and Maser to improve their reliability to be as solid as Toyota. I've heard here and there that the recent Maser engines have been pretty sound, and early Grecale, and the latest MC20 reviews seemed to have gone without a hitch. Can't attest to the Alfas as much though, and ofc there were the nasty electronic issues that plagued early QVs, but I also hear that they've improved in the 2019+ model years. I hope Tonale ends up being a good indicator to how they approach overall quality. They're adamant that it is, so here's hoping for the best!

 

[Levi]

I'd love to see Alfa and Maser to improve their reliability to be as solid as Toyota. I've heard here and there that the recent Maser engines have been pretty sound, and early Grecale, and the latest MC20 reviews seemed to have gone without a hitch. Can't attest to the Alfas as much though, and ofc there were the nasty electronic issues that plagued early QVs, but I also hear that they've improved in the 2019+ model years. I hope Tonale ends up being a good indicator to how they approach overall quality. They're adamant that it is, so here's hoping for the best!

The Tonal is not an Alfa but a Peugeot/Citroen, the later not being anything that can be considered reliable by Toyota standards.

 

[Smychavo]

The Tonal is not an Alfa but a Peugeot/Citroen, the later not being anything that can be considered reliable by Toyota standards.

If you intend to equate their reputation for reliability of Alfa Romeo, then yes, you're right. It has been spotty at best and mediocre at worst.

 

[spwolf]

Is their a reason Toyota does not want to bring in their own HiAce to these markets?

we used to have Hiace, it had old design, old interior, lacked some features. Didnt sell well, you had to be big Toyota fan to buy it.
Plus Toyota didnt have big fleet discounts, so LCV vehicles were super hard sell.

 

[NXracer]

Apparently Alfa Romeos new reason for low sales is that lack of appeal to normies, and too much focus on the enthusiast.

Now I do agree that focusing on the whims and wants of the performance enthusiast is bad business for select brands, but is it really the only issue with AR?

 

[Smychavo]

Apparently Alfa Romeos new reason for low sales is that lack of appeal to normies, and too much focus on the enthusiast.

Now I do agree that focusing on the whims and wants of the performance enthusiast is bad business for select brands, but is it really the only issue with AR?

They're hardly marketed to the same extent we see every other vehicle. Those that'll casually research it will be aware that they don't have the highest regard for dependability even against other Euro makes, and lastly, the average consumer will probably see their excellence in sports cars and think that they're prolly too much even if there's legitimately nothing *that* sporty about their regular vehicles unless one opts to purchase the Quadrifoglios. It's their perception that requires the most work to resolve. That, along with their long term build quality are what need the most work now if they intend to change course. Formula 1 liveries and online presentations are clearly not enough.

 

[Levi]

we used to have Hiace, it had old design, old interior, lacked some features. Didnt sell well, you had to be big Toyota fan to buy it.
Plus Toyota didnt have big fleet discounts, so LCV vehicles were super hard sell.

We had a fleet of Hiaces (the Grannvia, not forward cab). They were RWD, but understeered as hell, drifted as soon as rear grip was lost, and were so slow, engine (diesel) ran out of breath so early.

 

[Kelvin2020]

2022

2023

Learned from the master of quality

 

[Flagship1]

i eat my words. Now bring that level of quality to all of stellantis.

 

[Sulu]

2022
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2023
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Learned from the master of quality

Is this the initial quality study or the longer term dependability study?

Initial quality is (much) less difficult than longer-term dependability -- just ensure that each car is well and tightly screwed together before it is driven off the assembly line. Long-term quality, however, is dependent upon so many different factors, from the quality of materials, quality of product from suppliers, how the whole car is designed, how the whole car is screwed together, to the culture of the company and its workers (do they care about the company and the cars they are building)...

Improvements in initial quality may be seen from one year to the next and in the same model line, but improvement in longer-term quality and dependability takes years and due to all the factors involved, it may not be possible to improve quality in a model line without a major model change.

If Alfa Romeo announced in 2022 that it is benchmarking Lexus, don't expect a drastic change in 2023.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

2022
View attachment 9491
2023
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Learned from the master of quality

Probably a case of initial quality, but very interesting.

 

[dbthompson]

Ahh, the days of driving my Alfa, hitting a bump and having my lights go out, and then I'd have to look for another bump to get them back on again But it was a pretty car!