3rd Generation Toyota Tundra (2022+) Master Thread

[mikeavelli]

Bring back the TRD S/C option with 500hp

 

[spwolf]

Good points. I think updating the iForce 5.7L V8 with direct injection, D4S and a 10AT might be enough to make the truck diehards happy. For the guys who really have to have a V8, there is your engine.

The other option would be a new smaller displacement turbo V8 on the new Dynamic Force architecture. Whether that is twin turbo or single turbo, I'm not sure. It's getting harder to see the use case for these big V8 engines now - LS F, LC F and Tundra would be really low volume. Even if they added it as an option to Land Cruiser and LX in select markets, as well as Sequoia, that would still be a tough sell, IMO. Also, the trucks don't need 640hp like LS F and LC F so at a minimum, there has to be different tunes of this engine.

3.5L TT V6 is probably enough engine for 90% of buyers, but there will be that group who has to have their V8, as you note.

Possible options seem to be:

• 3.5L TT V6
• 3.5L TT V6 + Hybrid
• Reworked and updated 5.7L iForce V8
• New Dynamic Force turbo V8

it depends on their cost. I think 3.5k tt is going to be more expensive than NA V8, so if we see new V8, it could possibly be NA V8 for cost reasons.
Something has to start at 30k and it wont be twin turbo engine that is for sure.

 

[Gecko]

it depends on their cost. I think 3.5k tt is going to be more expensive than NA V8, so if we see new V8, it could possibly be NA V8 for cost reasons.
Something has to start at 30k and it wont be twin turbo engine that is for sure.

Agree, but I guess we are all trying to figure out the use case for a new "workhorse" V8 engine and it seems hard to justify. We have rumors of a new 4.0L TT V8 coming for Lexus F cars, but ~640 horsepower is not happening in a Tundra.

Updating the 5.7L V8 with D4S and direct injection would be an option, but that would be very close to the same power output of the V35A-FTS. I can't see Toyota updating that V8 just to keep it as an economy option. I also have to wonder if V35A-FTS is as expensive as we are making it out to be. If Toyota has built a use case for that engine in LS, LX, Land Cruiser, Tundra, Sequoia, LQ, and other Lexus products, they might be able to make the cost work for Tundra. GR V6 wouldn't be an awful base engine, and then there are rumors of the new 2.4/2.5L turbo 4 cyl also.

The top-end full size trucks haven't moved much from the 390-420hp they were pushing in 2007-2009. So looking at the numbers, the V35A-FTS matches up very well against Ford's Ecoboost engines, GM's 6.2L V8 and Ram's Hemi V8. V35A it is torquey would be very fitting for a truck, so I think we can assume that fills the space of a ~400hp power plant. In full size trucks, there's really not much above that unless you start going into diesels. The Ecoboost in the Raptor makes 450hp and 510lb-ft which is only a slight tune away from where the V35A is at (416hp/442lb-ft). Not a big difference.

I've heard solid rumors of V35A-FTS + hybrid for Tundra, so if someone has a need for more than 415hp/442lb-ft, there is your answer. Could the next gen Tundra be V8-less?

If Lexus had the balls to build a ~500hp V8 LS and LC, I would say you can easily make a case for a "sub-F" V8 in those applications as well as Land Cruiser, LX, Tundra and Sequoia. But LS sales don't justify it, everything indicates that the V35A-FTS is our "new V8" and it's hard to see a further use case for such an engine aside from maybe IS F and RC F if it lives to see a second generation.

 

[ssun30]

^^Ford offers the 5.0 V8 which is close to the capabilities of the base (non-Raptor) Ecoboost 3.5. So it is possible the Tundra will keep a V8 with similar capabilities to the V35A, just because a V8 in a full-size truck seems a must in USA.

An updated 3UR would be a dream though. People will trust the durability of this legendary motor than an unproven turbo V6. 8% more power/torque (that's how much D-4S offers over port injection on average) and much improved MPG from a 10 speed will be a well-received combination. But I hope they don't make the mistake with Taco/Prado where they changed to a non-utility engine (i.e. dropping in a detuned 2UR)

Nissan even bothered updating the Patrol/QX56's 5.6 with direct injection even though they are not selling even close to LC200/LX numbers. And the improved fuel economy is well-received in China.

 

[Gecko]

^Agree, an updated UR would be awesome. Old and inefficient as it might be, it's still wonderful... and a hypothetical 411hp and 433lb-ft of torque mated to a more modern transmission would be great.

 

[MOBLIN]

^^Ford offers the 5.0 V8 which is close to the capabilities of the base (non-Raptor) Ecoboost 3.5. So it is possible the Tundra will keep a V8 with similar capabilities to the V35A, just because a V8 in a full-size truck seems a must in USA.

An updated 3UR would be a dream though. People will trust the durability of this legendary motor than an unproven turbo V6. 8% more power/torque (that's how much D-4S offers over port injection on average) and much improved MPG from a 10 speed will be a well-received combination. But I hope they don't make the mistake with Taco/Prado where they changed to a non-utility engine (i.e. dropping in a detuned 2UR)

Nissan even bothered updating the Patrol/QX56's 5.6 with direct injection even though they are not selling even close to LC200/LX numbers. And the improved fuel economy is well-received in China.

My thoughts exactly. However, even with the addition of D-4S, they could still update the motor to include the widened angle of the intake and exhaust valves, making it a Dynamic Force engine. This would add even more power, torque and efficiency, right? That would give them a pretty competitive V8 with proven durability and reliability. That and a V35A option, and even a hybrid option, would be dreams come true for me... And likely many others.

On a side note, I truly and thoroughly enjoy this forum!

 

[MKIVCrybaby]

I believe it was toyota's initiative to have 50% of their vehicles electric or hybrids by 2020.
Then all have options of electric/hybrid by 2025.

They gotta speed it up a bit now.

 

[spwolf]

I believe it was toyota's initiative to have 50% of their vehicles electric or hybrids by 2020.
Then all have options of electric/hybrid by 2025.

They gotta speed it up a bit now.

all that means is that they will have hybrid option... that is all that "electrified" means, and at least with Toyota it is actually full hybrids... with Germans, it is some useless 48v mild hybrid system, aka glorified start/stop

 

[MOBLIN]

^^Ford offers the 5.0 V8 which is close to the capabilities of the base (non-Raptor) Ecoboost 3.5. So it is possible the Tundra will keep a V8 with similar capabilities to the V35A, just because a V8 in a full-size truck seems a must in USA.

An updated 3UR would be a dream though. People will trust the durability of this legendary motor than an unproven turbo V6. 8% more power/torque (that's how much D-4S offers over port injection on average) and much improved MPG from a 10 speed will be a well-received combination. But I hope they don't make the mistake with Taco/Prado where they changed to a non-utility engine (i.e. dropping in a detuned 2UR)

Nissan even bothered updating the Patrol/QX56's 5.6 with direct injection even though they are not selling even close to LC200/LX numbers. And the improved fuel economy is well-received in China.

On average, how much power/torque does adding making an engine Dynamic Force add? Based on a quick calculation,I am getting about an 11.5% increase, but I could totally be wrong. I got 14% for hp and 9% for torque.

 

[spwolf]

On average, how much power/torque does adding making an engine Dynamic Force add? Based on a quick calculation,I am getting about an 11.5% increase, but I could totally be wrong. I got 14% for hp and 9% for torque.

it is completely new engine, so cant calculate it like that... in some cases it is due to the addition of tech like D4S.

 

[ssun30]

On average, how much power/torque does adding making an engine Dynamic Force add? Based on a quick calculation,I am getting about an 11.5% increase, but I could totally be wrong. I got 14% for hp and 9% for torque.

You cannot directly compare a Dynamic Force with "xR generation" (ZR/AR/GR/UR) engines since they were designed with different philosophies and engineering trades.

In terms of specific power DF engines are not superior to the "xR generation" with D-4S. On average the architecture allows 60kW or 80hp/L on regular fuel, although OVtune estimates there is room to get 100hp/L when premium fuel is used and some efficiency sacrifices are made.

 

[MKIVCrybaby]

With the release of the next tundra coming soon, hasnt toyota always released the Landcruiser before the revised tundra?

Should we be expecting Geneva to release more information on LC? Or Paris?

But then tundra is debuted in 2020 "supposedly."
Timing is all off.
It will only be aligned if LC 300 series is to make a public appearance during geneva to build hype for the tundra 2020 release.

Im conflicted.

 

[Gecko]

I feel like the Tundra will launch first, since we've seen mules of it testing. It seems like we should have seen a Land Cruiser mule somewhere by now.

Highlander has been on the road in production form and drops at the end of 2019, so the other two must be a bit further out.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

With the release of the next Tundra coming soon, hasn't Toyota always released the Land Cruiser before the revised Tundra?

Traditionally, yes.

The last time Lexus Enthusiast forums member Carmaker1 addressed 3rd-gen Tundra timing, however, he said it might precede Land Cruiser 300 in launching the TNGA-F body-on-frame architecture.

Should we be expecting Geneva to release more information on LC? Or Paris?

A cursory glance at the 2019 Geneva Motor Show press conference schedule reveals that both Lexus and Toyota will be taking the "digital on-demand press conference, at any time" route, as opposed to a formal, physical 15-minute press conference. This is an approach Lexus has taken in the past to disguise the lack of significant world debuts at European motor shows, and now it seems Toyota is aping its luxury brand.

A Toyota Europe Newsroom release ahead of the 2019 Geneva show only mentions new Aygo x-Style and x-cite variants, and the Lexus Europe Newsroom only mentions Continental debuts of what Lexus unveiled in Detroit (LC Convertible Concept and RC F Track Edition).

Paris? Nope. That's only held on even-numbered years. 2019 being odd-numbered, there is a trio of major fall motor shows: Frankfurt (press days Tuesday 10 and Wednesday 11 September), Tokyo (press days Wednesday 23 and Thursday 24 October) and Los Angeles (likely press days Wednesday 20 and Thursday 21 November). One of those could see a TNGA-F model debut, but I think that calendar year 2020 is far likelier.

But then Tundra is debuted in 2020 "supposedly."
Timing is all off.
It will only be aligned if LC 300 series is to make a public appearance during Geneva to build hype for the Tundra 2020 release.

I'm conflicted.

You're not the only one. We all are. Even Carmaker1's most recent post was in the Land Cruiser 300 thread figuratively throwing his arms up in frustration and ending by saying:

I'm not predicting anything anymore, as everything is too all over the place to know anything solid regarding the TNGA-F flagships.

Prior to that, his predictions were roughly as follows:

300-Series LAND CRUISER: This Lexus LX twin may launch the TNGA-F BOF architecture. Launches within 2020 calendar year (2021 MY).

4th-gen Lexus LX: 220X program code. Enters production in July (or August/September) 2020 as MY 2021.

3rd-gen TUNDRA: Program code 954A. Enters production on August 3, 2020, for the 2021 model year. It may launch earlier, however, and may be first TNGA-F product instead of Land Cruiser 300/Lexus LX.

 

[MOBLIN]

Just out of curiosity, isn't this the 4th gen Tundra, by TMC's definition? I thought they called the 2014 MY a redesign and claimed it to be gen 3?

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Just out of curiosity, isn't this the 4th gen Tundra, by TMC's definition? I thought they called the 2014 MY a redesign and claimed it to be gen 3?

Toyota might want you to believe that, but the 2014 was a major facelift to the 2nd-gen that launched in 2006 (2007 model year) and NOT a new generation. In that regard, it's much like the 4th-gen Lexus LS, which received a major facelift for the 2013 model year but was still considered part of the 4th generation.

 

[MOBLIN]

Toyota might want you to believe that, but the 2014 was a major facelift to the 2nd-gen that launched in 2006 (2007 model year) and NOT a new generation. In that regard, it's much like the 4th-gen Lexus LS, which received a major facelift for the 2013 model year but was still considered part of the 4th generation.

Right, but when the next Tundra is revealed, they are probably going to call it the "All New 4th Generation Tundra" because Toyota calls the 2014 MY update a redesign... Even though it was just a refresh.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Right, but when the next Tundra is revealed, they are probably going to call it the "All New 4th Generation Tundra" because Toyota calls the 2014 MY update a redesign... Even though it was just a refresh.

I have to admit that's a possibility, even though both you and I (and many others) know it's not accurate.

 

[ssun30]

I also have to wonder if V35A-FTS is as expensive as we are making it out to be.

I never buy that argument. Of course the V35A is expensive today because they literally only make a few hundred of those per month. But it's a completely different matter when they scale it to hundreds of thousands a year.

If the Ecoboost works for Ford I don't see why it couldn't work for Toyota. And it's very clear the entry level engine for their future utility vehicle will not be the V35A.

 

[MOBLIN]

I never buy that argument. Of course the V35A is expensive today because they literally only make a few hundred of those per month. But it's a completely different matter when they scale it to hundreds of thousands a year.

If the Ecoboost works for Ford I don't see why it couldn't work for Toyota. And it's very clear the entry level engine for their future utility vehicle will not be the V35A.

True, but Ford sells a lot more F-150 pickups than Toyota sells of Tundra pickups... If Toyota had the pickup market share that Ford has it would be much more feasible. Who knows, maybe the redesigned Tundra will help gain more market share.