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I'm not holding my breath for Lexus to be doing a lot of work on F in the near future to be honest.

Bring the hybrid and up the power of the GX by the mid-life refresh and this car will remain competitive. The GX is an excellent product.
 

mikeavelli

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No one is screaming about it like Supra/BMW but they are using the BMW V-8. Wonderful motor.
 

Flagship1

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I understand that. But like it’s rarely even mentioned by the media.
JLR being a small outfit, understandable they might outsource their engines.
Toyota being the worlds largest outfit deciding their legacy nameplate is better off with a BMW engine was wild. Clever program direction but still wild.

"From the makers of hits like the 2JZ, 1LR, 1UZ, comes the next generation of Japanese Performance from the roundel in Munich?"
 

Gor134

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JLR has phased out the 5.0 Supercharged in almost everything for the BMW V8 unfortunately. Even the new-gen RR Sport and RR use the BMW V8, it was about time that the Defender loses the 5.0 Supercharged as well. And ofc the F Type R and F Pace SVR end production this year. RIP to an amazing sounding engine.
 
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JLR being a small outfit, understandable they might outsource their engines.
Toyota being the worlds largest outfit deciding their legacy nameplate is better off with a BMW engine was wild. Clever program direction but still wild.

"From the makers of hits like the 2JZ, 1LR, 1UZ, comes the next generation of Japanese Performance from the roundel in Munich?"
To be fair Toyota did a lot of work in terms of giving engineering feedback to BMW and Toyota ended up making their own tweaks to the engine. The end product was quite significant in terms of how special the engine was. As for the GR Supra itself, well, it doesn't drive all that similar to the Z4 in a lot of ways.

Also, everyone in this forum knows I'm a sucker for the B58, I'm so happy it's in a Toyota-branded car to be honest. BMW is being like Toyota of the 90's. But do y'all remember when the JZ engines were in the Supra, Soarer, Aristo/GS, Altezza/IS, Mark II/Chaser/Cresta, and much more? Now the B58 is in the 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/X3/X4/X5/X6/X7/Z4/GR Supra/Grenadier. We'll have B58 engine swaps in the A90 for life. If the A100 continues the BMW partnership it will be even sweeter.

I am still waiting for Papadakis Racing to slap the B58 in an A80 Supra to break the internet. He said he was going to do it.
 

Flagship1

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To be fair Toyota did a lot of work in terms of giving engineering feedback to BMW and Toyota ended up making their own tweaks to the engine. The end product was quite significant in terms of how special the engine was. As for the GR Supra itself, well, it doesn't drive all that similar to the Z4 in a lot of ways.

Also, everyone in this forum knows I'm a sucker for the B58, I'm so happy it's in a Toyota-branded car to be honest. BMW is being like Toyota of the 90's. But do y'all remember when the JZ engines were in the Supra, Soarer, Aristo/GS, Altezza/IS, Mark II/Chaser/Cresta, and much more? Now the B58 is in the 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/X3/X4/X5/X6/X7/Z4/GR Supra/Grenadier. We'll have B58 engine swaps in the A90 for life. If the A100 continues the BMW partnership it will be even sweeter.

I am still waiting for Papadakis Racing to slap the B58 in an A80 Supra to break the internet. He said he was going to do it.
I always wondered what performance improvements had Toyota implemented into the b58 from it original launch version?

From my understanding B58 vs B58TU were primarily emission mods (cylinder head mods, split cooling, particulate filter, one piece timing chain, and some fueling mods).
 

Gecko

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I always wondered what performance improvements had Toyota implemented into the b58 from it original launch version?

From my understanding B58 vs B58TU were primarily emission mods (cylinder head mods, split cooling, particulate filter, one piece timing chain, and some fueling mods).

I've spoken directly to the Supra product managers about this and asked the pointed question: What input or co-development did Toyota contribute on the B58, especially the version that came to the Supra 3.0?

The answer from every one of them: Aside from QDR testing of BMW's engine to be sure it met Toyota standards, none.

I think the bit about "Toyota having input on the B58" is pure fallacy to make Toyota folks feel better about the Supra's development. The B58 should be as good as it is because BMW has been using and perfecting it for so long. Toyota didn't -- and didn't need to -- provide any changes to it.

And for the record, the people who I've asked that question are people who would know, and would have told me if there was any level of Toyota input on it's development.
 

Flagship1

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I've spoken directly to the Supra product managers about this and asked the pointed question: What input or co-development did Toyota contribute on the B58, especially the version that came to the Supra 3.0?

The answer from every one of them: Aside from QDR testing of BMW's engine to be sure it met Toyota standards, none.

I think the bit about "Toyota having input on the B58" is pure fallacy to make Toyota folks feel better about the Supra's development. The B58 should be as good as it is because BMW has been using and perfecting it for so long. Toyota didn't -- and didn't need to -- provide any changes to it.

And for the record, the people who I've asked that question are people who would know, and would have told me if there was any level of Toyota input on it's development.
Thanks. I did hear that BMW's B48 was the engine that was benchmarked and alot of its fundamentals for implemented in the dynamic force 2.4T.
 

Ali Manai

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Thanks. I did hear that BMW's B48 was the engine that was benchmarked and alot of its fundamentals for implemented in the dynamic force 2.4T.
But that engine still sucks just look at all the cars that have replaced the v6 with this engine not counting hybrid versions, it's slower, less engaging, not any more fuel efficient and lacks smoothness
 

Flagship1

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But that engine still sucks just look at all the cars that have replaced the v6 with this engine not counting hybrid versions, it's slower, less engaging, not any more fuel efficient and lacks smoothness
i guess they got more to learn, and benchmark?

The 2GR is a smooth and refined engine but it severely lacked in raw performance when compared to whats out there. Its kind of the same thing with the UR family. That being said the purpose of these motors probably was never to be the top dog on performance for 3 decades, but rather be the heir on reliability (nee the leaky nature of the motor).
 
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JustADude

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But that engine still sucks just look at all the cars that have replaced the v6 with this engine not counting hybrid versions, it's slower, less engaging, not any more fuel efficient and lacks smoothness
Would anyone have a guess as to why? Maybe since it's in FWD products perhaps? Or maybe emissions? I wonder how this engine would be tuned if it were in an IS350 for example (more hp, better response, maybe quieter?)
 
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I've spoken directly to the Supra product managers about this and asked the pointed question: What input or co-development did Toyota contribute on the B58, especially the version that came to the Supra 3.0?

The answer from every one of them: Aside from QDR testing of BMW's engine to be sure it met Toyota standards, none.
Hm... given how we had a handful of engineers/insiders from Japan/Europe saying otherwise, I wonder who these individuals were that said this?
I think the bit about "Toyota having input on the B58" is pure fallacy to make Toyota folks feel better about the Supra's development. The B58 should be as good as it is because BMW has been using and perfecting it for so long. Toyota didn't -- and didn't need to -- provide any changes to it.
I mean at this point the car is out for a couple of years, people who are butt-hurt about it will still remain butt-hurt about the B58.

In terms of perfecting it, that's true, but even the N55 had it's fair share of problems, and while BMW offered to develop the GR Supra with the N55, Toyota refused and was more interested in their new engine that they were developing at the time, the B58 (circa 2012).
And for the record, the people who I've asked that question are people who would know, and would have told me if there was any level of Toyota input on it's development.
That's odd because European and Japanese engineers (like Tada-san) made comments about the certain design decisions of the engine. For example, the move behind putting the timing chain to the firewall and encouraging BMW to move to a mechanical water pump was suggested by Toyota engineers, not BMWs.

Toyota's North American engineers had much less input in the GR Supra so I'm not surprised that they lack insight to the car. It was only CALTY that had input and that was so they can wrap the FT-1 design onto the GR Supra's hard-points.

Now I don't want this to get into an argument of "he said, she said", but clearly even at Toyota there is a lot of disparity in terms of information, and I'm inclined to listen to the people that actually developed the car. Just my two cents though.
 

Gor134

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I've spoken directly to the Supra product managers about this and asked the pointed question: What input or co-development did Toyota contribute on the B58, especially the version that came to the Supra 3.0?

The answer from every one of them: Aside from QDR testing of BMW's engine to be sure it met Toyota standards, none.

I think the bit about "Toyota having input on the B58" is pure fallacy to make Toyota folks feel better about the Supra's development. The B58 should be as good as it is because BMW has been using and perfecting it for so long. Toyota didn't -- and didn't need to -- provide any changes to it.

And for the record, the people who I've asked that question are people who would know, and would have told me if there was any level of Toyota input on it's development.
I agree with this 100%

The revised version of the B58 in Supras '21+ was already featured in BMWs at the time and BMW regularly does improvements to their engines every 3 years anyways. The B58 is due for it's next round of improvements in the next year or so.

But of course, that also aligns with all the other false rumours of the Supra development such as the one about Toyota Engineers not talking to BMW since 2014 or whatnot, that was the biggest BS headline I had read haha.

Not saying this to say the Supra isn't an amazing product, but I definitely agree with you that Toyota was misleading people regards to how much input they had during development like you said to make people feel better about it.
 
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But of course, that also aligns with all the other false rumours of the Supra development such as the one about Toyota Engineers not talking to BMW since 2014 or whatnot, that was the biggest BS headline I had read haha.
For sure, that was definitely a stretch. Toyota paid BMW to test the GR Supra on the roads with other BMW models (as well as Minis and Rolls Royces) and for BMW to send data back to Japan. Toyota would then ask BMW to make changes to the car while they were cold and stress testing the cars. So there was definitely some communication happening.