2nd Generation Toyota 86 and Subaru BRZ Thread (3cyl GR 86 Coming?)

[Tragic Bronson]

The Toyota GR86 And Subaru BRZ Are Dead In Europe. Here's Why

In e-mails sent to Motor1, Toyota and Subaru have confirmed the GR86 and BRZ will be discontinued in 2024 in Europe due to new safety regulations.

www.motor1.com

It’s usually stricter emissions regulations that force automakers to discontinue their fun cars in Europe. However, the Toyota GR86 and Subaru BRZ will be discontinued due to upcoming safety legislation. It's called the General Safety Regulations 2 (GSR2) and is sadly going to put the final nail in the Toyobaru's coffin this year.

In e-mails to Motor1, both automakers have confirmed the rear-wheel-drive coupes are not going to be available on the Old Continent for much longer. Patrick Scheelen, Senior Manager, Lexus and Toyota Gazoo Racing Communications, told us the original plan to sell the GR86 for only two years in Europe remains in place. He went on to mention the company has no intention of modifying the affordable sports car to meet the requirements of GSR2.

 

[mediumhot]

Don't know how start this discussion without generating heat here but most of the sports cars in Europe are getting wounded because of emissions taxes but this car straight out died because of outdated underpinnings and outdated engine. This car has whopping €60,000 emissions tax compared to Supra's €4,500 for the four cylinder in France. Even GR Yaris has emissions tax penalty of "only" €46,000 which brings the total price close to €100,000 and yet Toyota still expects tot sell 300 of them at that price in France. That's how hot GR Yaris is at the moment but GR86 is a dead dud, and always has been. Toyota knew the car wouldn't be able to clear advanced safety package standards that were going to take place only two years after GR86 entered the EU market.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

I want a 2-door shooting brake.

 

[Levi]

Could it be the new ICEV IS?

 

[NomadDan]

I think it almost makes more sense for that to be the Celica, not the 86. Personally, I think the 86 should remain a small coupe, but the Celica might be kinda neat as a 4 door coupe or sport wagon. Historically, the Celica has always been a step above the 86 too. I dig it.

 

[Gecko]

I realize I'm going to get stoned to death and thrown out of this thread for saying this, but the GR 86 was my least favorite car back when I was getting press cars. It's the car I drove least and was excited to see go back.

Glad some folks love it, and I'm happy it exists regardless.

I'd love to see one with a Toyota engine as I think that would solve a lot of my gripes.

 

[Levi]

I realize I'm going to get stoned to death and thrown out of this thread for saying this, but the GR 86 was my least favorite car back when I was getting press cars. It's the car I drove least and was excited to see go back.

Glad some folks love it, and I'm happy it exists regardless.

I'd love to see one with a Toyota engine as I think that would solve a lot of my gripes.

With G16E, it would be perfect. But I maybe even more prefer the S-FR with G16E. It that car replaced the GT86 instead of the GR86, I don’t think it would have bothered many buyers.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

I realize I'm going to get stoned to death and thrown out of this thread for saying this, but the GR 86 was my least favorite car back when I was getting press cars. It's the car I drove least and was excited to see go back.

Glad some folks love it, and I'm happy it exists regardless.

I'd love to see one with a Toyota engine as I think that would solve a lot of my gripes.

*gathers stones*

grrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[Gecko]

I think the Toyobaru cars are at their best on a track, but in day-to-day commuting life, it is a pretty punishing car to live with.

I think my Honda lawn mower is smoother than that 2.4L boxer engine -- that powerplant is so rough all the time. The interior is loud and buzzy (made worse by the loud engine), and I know it's all in the name of saving weight, but it does take a toll on you in every day ownership. Also highway MPG sucks pretty bad for how small and light the car is... I don't think I ever got over 26 with a light foot in the right lane.

Plus side: it has more interior room than the Supra, and is more comfortable 😁

G16E would definitely make this car more appealing to me (and probably many others). GRMN 86...?

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

I think the Toyobaru cars are at their best on a track, but in day-to-day commuting life, it is a pretty punishing car to live with.

I think my Honda lawn mower is smoother than that 2.4L boxer engine -- that powerplant is so rough all the time. The interior is loud and buzzy (made worse by the loud engine), and I know it's all in the name of saving weight, but it does take a toll on you in every day ownership. Also highway MPG sucks pretty bad for how small and light the car is... I don't think I ever got over 26 with a light foot in the right lane.

Plus side: it has more interior room than the Supra, and is more comfortable 😁

G16E would definitely make this car more appealing to me (and probably many others). GRMN 86...?

Okay yeah, so most (if not all) of your problems are concerning the engine. Mind you, the FA24 is a huge improvement over the FA20 in every single subjective and objective metric and in the view of most car enthusiasts, the car is pretty much perfect, but alas it still has its flaws, and your objections are fair.

The ONLY reservation I have with the new GR86 being equipped with the G16E-GTS is that having turbo lag in a car that is supposed to deliver a raw, and immediate driving feel is NOT a good idea. I hope for little to no lag and for a linear power band, with a high redline. The fun part about the GR86 is that you have to rev it out to get power, but if the de-stroked G16E-GTS retains the rev-happy nature with the additional torque then I'd be happy.

 

[Motor]

 

[Motor]

Toyota Targets Wider Audience With 4-Door GR86

An all-new four-door GR86, packing a turbocharged 350hp gasoline-hybrid, is in the pipeline, slated for a 2026 launch.

www.forbes.com

Speaking of ‘more exciting,’ the new 4-door GR86 will be powered by one of Toyota’s best engines — the 300 horsepower, 3-cylinder 1.6-liter turbocharged gasoline engine powering the GR Corolla. But in the 4-door GR86, Best Car tells us that this 1.6-liter powerplant will also get an electric motor, making it a hybrid — and this modification will shoot the new 4-door GR86’s output up to a healthy 350 hp, but still channeled through the rear wheels.

 

[qtb007]

No way. He has his lines crossed somehow. The G16 + 47hp 1M hybrid + 8AT is certainly possible for the powertrain, but what platform? It won't be the current 86 platform. It won't be the current IS platform. I can't imagine them making a new platform from scratch that is focused on light weight when so many other RWD Toyotas need attention.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

No way. He has his lines crossed somehow. The G16 + 47hp 1M hybrid + 8AT is certainly possible for the powertrain, but what platform? It won't be the current 86 platform. It won't be the current IS platform. I can't imagine them making a new platform from scratch that is focused on light weight when so many other RWD Toyotas need attention.

When I hear all of this, I am of greater belief that the possibility of Toyota developing a brand-new RWD platform for all of their cars makes economic sense. Just like how modular the other TNGA platforms are (bar TNGA-L), something tells me that Toyota may want to do a do-over and build a really good and modular RWD TNGA platform succeeding the TNGA-L platform.

Imagine all of the cars that could use this new RWD platform.
- Crown Sedan (the real one)
- GR Supra (although some sources are alluding to the possibility that BMW may want another round of the Z4/GR Supra sisters, more on this below)
- GR86
- Lexus IS
- Lexus RC
- Lexus ES
- Lexus LS
- Lexus LC

- Toyota GR GT (that's if Toyota wants to homologate the GR GT for the roads and not have it be just a Toyota-version of the LFA, could be on it's own bespoke platform, I've heard of the TNGA-A platform being rumored)
- Lexus LFA (probably will be significantly more bespoke than all the other cars here, and would use very little of the parts shared with the other cars, bar the GR Supra assuming if Toyota develops the A100 on their own or if Toyota comes out with the GR GT TNGA-A platform and it's not just a racecar version of the LFA, which should be separate from the GR Supra)

Now imagine if Lexus were to bring back cars like the GS, and if they chose to build RWD-based SUVs (NX, RX, TX and LF-1).

Note that I didn't mention the future MR2 because last time I heard it would just use the GR Yaris platform but switched 180º in rear-drive form, but hey, imagine the MR2 being on a modified version of this platform too.

Bar the MR2, GR GT, and LFA, that's 13 different cars that Toyota can come out with the new RWD TNGA platform. It would make a ton of economic sense, especially since the entire globe is walking back on the extremist EV-only push, and they could release a whole new family of powerful, reliable, smooth, and efficient 3/4/6/8-cylinder engines coupled with their legendary hybrid systems that can be shared across most of these cars.

With all of these cars migrating to the new RWD platform, that still leaves a ton of cars on the TNGA-K and TNGA-C platform. Not only will there be better differentiation between the Toyota and Lexus lineups leaving out the possibility of each marque cannibalizing the sales of the other, but also the TNGA-K and TNGA-C platforms already underpin so many cars that they wouldn't be hurting in terms of amortization of costs across all platforms.

 

[ssun30]

There is no new RWD "platform". The Crown Sedan being based on the same GA-L platform is a sign it doesn't exist.

All RWD sports cars they build in the future will be custom chassis optimized for one product only. That's objectively the better way to build sports cars. Porsche doesn't come up with some common platform for the 718 and 911. There is no reason the Supra be built on the same platform as the 86 or LFR. These cars are drastically different in cost and power level.

With the new GR factory Toyota has invented a separate production system optimized for small scale production. Sharing the same parts bin? Sure. Needing a common platform? No.

 

[Gor134]

Porsche's 992 and 718 are on the MMB platform. They share a modular platform toolkit, so certain build points are able to be shared to lower costs, while other aspects of the cars are bespoke.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

There is no new RWD "platform". The Crown Sedan being based on the same GA-L platform is a sign it doesn't exist.

With the exception of TNGA-A for the new LFA, I never said Toyota has come out with a new RWD platform. Rather, I said it makes economic sense, i.e. they should come out with a new one.

All RWD sports cars they build in the future will be custom chassis optimized for one product only.

... Aaaaaand that's exactly why the A80 and LFA failed, and the antithesis of that is exactly why the A90 and 86/GR86 are selling extremely well and makes economic sense for Toyota.

That's objectively the better way to build sports cars. Porsche doesn't come up with some common platform for the 718 and 911.

LOL yes they do.

Volkswagen Group MMB platform - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There is no reason the Supra be built on the same platform as the 86 or LFR. These cars are drastically different in cost and power level.

Sure, that's why the 160k USD Century SUV is on the same platform as a 30k USD Camry...

A modular platform that can be scaled up or scaled down for different purposes is something that Toyota is MORE than capable of doing, and it makes perfect sense if you were to consider the number of cars that this platform can underpin.

With the new GR factory Toyota has invented a separate production system optimized for small scale production. Sharing the same parts bin? Sure. Needing a common platform? No.

I literally said this, but you further solidified why a new platform would make sense. The new BRZ and GR86, while they are on a bespoke platform, they still use parts from the NEW Subaru SGP platform.

 

[NomadDan]

I hope the 86 isn’t going to turn into a $45k+ car. It’s always been a fun, entry level car, and I think it needs to stay that way. Toyota should just drop the S20 engine it, offer a manual, and call it a day. No hybrid, no AWD…keep it cheap and simple. All this talk of it being a G16E+ hybrid just seems like it’s going to drive the price up.

Id like to see this rumored car sold under the Celica nameplate. Two models:
Base model: S20 engine (good for 250ish hp), hybrid, RWD, manual option
All-Trac / GT-Four (or they could call it GR-Four): G16E, AWD, hybrid, manual option.

I would actually prefer not to see a hybrid in any of this, but it seems Toyota wants to put hybrids in everything.

 

[qtb007]

When I hear all of this, I am of greater belief that the possibility of Toyota developing a brand-new RWD platform for all of their cars makes economic sense. Just like how modular the other TNGA platforms are (bar TNGA-L), something tells me that Toyota may want to do a do-over and build a really good and modular RWD TNGA platform succeeding the TNGA-L platform.

Imagine all of the cars that could use this new RWD platform.
- Crown Sedan (the real one)
- GR Supra (although some sources are alluding to the possibility that BMW may want another round of the Z4/GR Supra sisters, more on this below)
- GR86
- Lexus IS
- Lexus RC
- Lexus ES
- Lexus LS
- Lexus LC

- Toyota GR GT (that's if Toyota wants to homologate the GR GT for the roads and not have it be just a Toyota-version of the LFA, could be on it's own bespoke platform, I've heard of the TNGA-A platform being rumored)
- Lexus LFA (probably will be significantly more bespoke than all the other cars here, and would use very little of the parts shared with the other cars, bar the GR Supra assuming if Toyota develops the A100 on their own or if Toyota comes out with the GR GT TNGA-A platform and it's not just a racecar version of the LFA, which should be separate from the GR Supra)

Now imagine if Lexus were to bring back cars like the GS, and if they chose to build RWD-based SUVs (NX, RX, TX and LF-1).

Note that I didn't mention the future MR2 because last time I heard it would just use the GR Yaris platform but switched 180º in rear-drive form, but hey, imagine the MR2 being on a modified version of this platform too.

Bar the MR2, GR GT, and LFA, that's 13 different cars that Toyota can come out with the new RWD TNGA platform. It would make a ton of economic sense, especially since the entire globe is walking back on the extremist EV-only push, and they could release a whole new family of powerful, reliable, smooth, and efficient 3/4/6/8-cylinder engines coupled with their legendary hybrid systems that can be shared across most of these cars.

With all of these cars migrating to the new RWD platform, that still leaves a ton of cars on the TNGA-K and TNGA-C platform. Not only will there be better differentiation between the Toyota and Lexus lineups leaving out the possibility of each marque cannibalizing the sales of the other, but also the TNGA-K and TNGA-C platforms already underpin so many cars that they wouldn't be hurting in terms of amortization of costs across all platforms.

I think you are getting your hopes up. FWD platforms are far more readily adapted to electric motor power than RWD platforms because the motors run parallel to the drive axis just like transverse drivetrains. This is especially important as the BEV transition seems to be on an unclear timeline.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

I think you are getting your hopes up. FWD platforms are far more readily adapted to electric motor power than RWD platforms because the motors run parallel to the drive axis just like transverse drivetrains. This is especially important as the BEV transition seems to be on an unclear timeline.

In the case of most Chinese EVs like BYD (except the Seal), yes, that's what they've been doing, and they're great for packaging reasons too. But the vast majority of manufacturers have been building RWD-biased EVs, and there's a reason for that.

FWD-based EVs suffer from the same issue that FWD-based ICE cars have, and that is they aren't the best in terms of dynamics, and Toyota is an OEM that is attempting to be a jack of all trades with their newest cars. I was only saying that given that Toyota is beginning to develop a lot of these enthusiast models on their own, it would make a lot of sense to also lump a bunch of other RWD cars in Toyota and Lexus' lineup in order to amortize development and production costs.