2021 Toyota Venza (Global Harrier)

[spwolf]

If this Harrier comes as the Venza, is a bit longer with more room in the 2nd row, more cargo room and more premium features, then I see the case. But just a sleek alternative to the RAV4? No. Americans like our SUVs to be tough and butch looking, which is why 4Runner sells so well after 10 years with few changes, why the new RAV4 is setting sales records and nobody here wants a C-HR. Plus, in the US, we still have a mentality that bigger = more expensive, and smaller = cheaper.

C-HR is too small to sell great in the US, while it is just right sized in rest of the world.

I agree with you that Rav4 is sweet spot in the US, BUT, I dont think they are planning outsell Rav4 with it.

I would guess that with Rav4 Hybrid starting at 28k and Highlander Hybrid starting at 38k, there is quite huge gap there that can be filled with another, more premium/sporty/sleek SUV that will still be $5k off NX Hybrid?

Pricing wise that looks good to me, and they might just want 10k/mo sales out of it. Get 10k/mo in the US, 15k/mo in the China, 5k/mo in Japan and SEA, and you are already at 350k sales per year, which is pretty darn big.

Maybe they will add some further distinction vs Rav4 - for instance Harrier in Japan had 2.0t from NX, however as much as I know this and Sienna are supposed to be all-hybrid? Otherwise, taking a look at doors and 5th door, it looks like cargo space has to be less than Rav4.

 

[spwolf]

When I think about it, we can look at NX as inspiration of why this will sell.

You can easily make an argument that Rav4 is a lot cheaper while having more little bit more space and SUV look, and that Highlander is little bit cheaper while being a lot larger vehicle.

And yet, NX has been a record breaking vehicle for Lexus.

 

[Gecko]

When I think about it, we can look at NX as inspiration of why this will sell.

You can easily make an argument that Rav4 is a lot cheaper while having more little bit more space and SUV look, and that Highlander is little bit cheaper while being a lot larger vehicle.

And yet, NX has been a record breaking vehicle for Lexus.

NX was also the cheapest Lexus before the UX came along, so I think that changes the situation. RAV4 has gone from being "basic transportation" in the 90s and 2000s, to now being a fairly premium, class-leading offering that can fetch prices in the mid 40k range. It's also more expensive than the Camry, Corolla, Yaris, Corolla Hatch, Yaris Hatch, C-HR and Prius.

Many people buy NX because it is/was the cheapest/second cheapest Lexus. Nobody is buying the RAV4 because it is the cheapest Toyota.

 

[ssun30]

The fact that such a small, impractical, and overpriced vehicle like C-HR became an instant hit in China always baffles me. Competitors are 20-30% cheaper yet not selling nearly as many...

The C-HR to me is the most incomprehensible success story from Toyota I've seen in many years.

 

[Levi]

It is based on new platform RAV4?


What if like GS which got cancelled and replaced by Mirai, NX gets cancelled and replaced by Harrier?

 

[Tragic Bronson]

The fact that such a small, impractical, and overpriced vehicle like C-HR became an instant hit in China always baffles me. Competitors are 20-30% cheaper yet not selling nearly as many...

The C-HR to me is the most incomprehensible success story from Toyota I've seen in many years.

Is the C-HR buyer base in China younger buyers? To me, it almost looks like a Pokemon...

 

[spwolf]

NX was also the cheapest Lexus before the UX came along, so I think that changes the situation. RAV4 has gone from being "basic transportation" in the 90s and 2000s, to now being a fairly premium, class-leading offering that can fetch prices in the mid 40k range. It's also more expensive than the Camry, Corolla, Yaris, Corolla Hatch, Yaris Hatch, C-HR and Prius.

Many people buy NX because it is/was the cheapest/second cheapest Lexus. Nobody is buying the RAV4 because it is the cheapest Toyota.

Well, UX has come and it is a big seller for Lexus, yet NX sales did not go down significantly in most markets, despite its old age.

So I dont think it was because it is cheapest Lexus, but rather that the vehicle has hit the customer sweet spot when it comes to size and value.

It is all about expanding sales, not outselling other models. I am sure they will be super happy with variation of Rav4 doing 300k sales per year, without actually outselling the Rav4 anywhere.

 

[spwolf]

The fact that such a small, impractical, and overpriced vehicle like C-HR became an instant hit in China always baffles me. Competitors are 20-30% cheaper yet not selling nearly as many...

The C-HR to me is the most incomprehensible success story from Toyota I've seen in many years.

It is same in Europe as well... crazy big hit for Toyota.
Same for Corolla Hatchback - very expensive, low on space, yet selling like crazy in Europe.

C-HR is just more stylish, unique and that sells.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

It is same in Europe as well... crazy big hit for Toyota.
Same for Corolla Hatchback - very expensive, low on space, yet selling like crazy in Europe.

C-HR is just more stylish, unique and that sells.

The C-HR fits Europe and most of Asia pretty well. Not too big and can be parked in most of Europe's tight spots, so it hits the mark as a city car (Is it better than the Aygo?). And I'm not surprised that it hasn't been as big a success here in the US. But a huge difference is that the C-HR is all hybrid, whereas we're only given a gas model. My friend has one on lease, and I refuse to ever ride in the rear of it. It does handle well, but it is slower than a Corolla.

Do they sell the Corolla HB with a stick in Europe?

 

[spwolf]

The C-HR fits Europe and most of Asia pretty well. Not too big and can be parked in most of Europe's tight spots, so it hits the mark as a city car (Is it better than the Aygo?). And I'm not surprised that it hasn't been as big a success here in the US. But a huge difference is that the C-HR is all hybrid, whereas we're only given a gas model. My friend has one on lease, and I refuse to ever ride in the rear of it. It does handle well, but it is slower than a Corolla.

Do they sell the Corolla HB with a stick in Europe?

Aygo is 3 sizes smaller than C-HR and cheap econobox that tries to look cool. C-HR is a lot bigger and more luxurious. Aygo is roughly half of a price of C-HR.

1.2t has a stick shift but they are phasing it out in most of EU, this includes both CHR and Corolla HB models.

I mean you are not losing a lot by not having C-HR 1.8 HSD... it is not a fast vehicle, it is ok enough for Europe, with great MPG. Added price would kill it in US.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

Aygo is 3 sizes smaller than C-HR and cheap econobox that tries to look cool. C-HR is a lot bigger and more luxurious. Aygo is roughly half of a price of C-HR.

1.2t has a stick shift but they are phasing it out in most of EU, this includes both CHR and Corolla HB models.

I mean you are not losing a lot by not having C-HR 1.8 HSD... it is not a fast vehicle, it is ok enough for Europe, with great MPG. Added price would kill it in US.

IDK, the Aygo seemed pretty cool (Better for the market than the iQ) and IMO, should've been a Scion product if they continued the brand. I wonder if it will live to see third generation since it is built with Peugeot and Citroen. Looks like it would be fun to hoon.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

I wonder if it will live to see third generation since it is built with Peugeot and Citroen. Looks like it would be fun to hoon.

According to an Automotive News Europe late 2018 report, the Toyota Peugeot Citroen Automobile (TPCA) plant in Kolin, Czech Republic will be solely owned by Toyota as of January 2021. Shortly thereafter, production of the Peugeot 108 and Citroen C1 will cease with no direct successor planned. Probably the 2022 model year will see new A-segment Toyota product built there. I strongly suspect it'll be jointly designed with Daihatsu on the DNGA architecture used primarily on JDM kei microcars but stretchable to A-segment (Aygo) size. Whether it'll be a direct 3rd-gen Aygo hatchback replacement or an A-segment crossover (possibly the Toyota Raize derived from the A200 Daihatsu Rocky) or both is an open question at this point.

 

[ssun30]

Is the C-HR buyer base in China younger buyers? To me, it almost looks like a Pokemon...

Yes. In general Toyota buyers have the lowest average age which is opposite to the case in USA. Older people prefer more established brands like VW Buick and Honda. C-HR buyers are the youngest among an already young customer base. The ad campaign aims directly at people 25-30 years old. They even went as far as making the C-HR the official touring car racer to promote it as a sporty stylish vehicle.

 

[spwolf]

IDK, the Aygo seemed pretty cool (Better for the market than the iQ) and IMO, should've been a Scion product if they continued the brand. I wonder if it will live to see third generation since it is built with Peugeot and Citroen. Looks like it would be fun to hoon.

Hah, i think you misunderstand how small Aygo is .

iQ is also so much better car than Aygo, it is basically like a Lexus compared to Aygo. Of course, it was also 50% more expensive than Aygo.

 

[spwolf]

According to an Automotive News Europe late 2018 report, the Toyota Peugeot Citroen Automobile (TPCA) plant in Kolin, Czech Republic will be solely owned by Toyota as of January 2021. Shortly thereafter, production of the Peugeot 108 and Citroen C1 will cease with no direct successor planned. Probably the 2022 model year will see new A-segment Toyota product built there. I strongly suspect it'll be jointly designed with Daihatsu on the DNGA architecture used primarily on JDM kei microcars but stretchable to A-segment (Aygo) size. Whether it'll be a direct 3rd-gen Aygo hatchback replacement or an A-segment crossover (possibly the Toyota Raize derived from the A200 Daihatsu Rocky) or both is an open question at this point.

it was also repeated very recently that they will continue doing Aygo on their own in Europe, because of the very low average buyer age and first time Toyota owners.

Why Daihatsu though and not Suzuki? Aygo is sold in Europe only, and I doubt kei cars can be stretched like that and still satisfy tough european safety regulations (i might be wrong).

Suzuki has had a lot of success with their recent small cars in Europe (while Daihatsu was a failure), so I can see that happening. Toyota Raize is the same size as new Yaris CUV.

In any case, I dont see Toyota doing Aygo on their own,, they do not know how to build a good cheap car.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

Hah, i think you misunderstand how small Aygo is .

iQ is also so much better car than Aygo, it is basically like a Lexus compared to Aygo. Of course, it was also 50% more expensive than Aygo.

I've sat in an iQ before, they're pretty tiny. But I figure the Aygo was a better investment for TME because of the shared engineering with Le French. I guess that's probably the iQ was not given a second generation. Sucks for it because I really liked the concept, but the whole microcar scene here didn't work here in North America.

 

[spwolf]

I've sat in an iQ before, they're pretty tiny. But I figure the Aygo was a better investment for TME because of the shared engineering with Le French. I guess that's probably the iQ was not given a second generation. Sucks for it because I really liked the concept, but the whole microcar scene here didn't work here in North America.

iQ did not work well anywhere, because it was premium micro car with Toyota badge released at the time when people didnt want tiny cars anymore, let alone premium ones.

So it never sold well like Aygo, which sells well and whose factory works at 100%.

Toyota had a huge plan for iQ and its platform, it was supposed to lead to new Yaris. It has special, space efficient front suspension and axle that was unique for it, that let 3 people ride in relative comfort for its 3m size... Aygo is much bigger at 3.6m but does not have much more space.

However Aygo looks fun (and cheap inside) and it is cheap to buy and own, hence it can sell 100k-110k per year in europe, and almost 300k all together with PSA.

So yes, Toyota does not know how to build cheap cars, they will have to partner with someone to use that 300k/yr factory like they did with PSA.

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

Why Daihatsu though and not Suzuki? Suzuki has had a lot of success with their recent small cars in Europe (while Daihatsu was a failure), so I can see that happening.

I have to admit that possibility didn't cross my mind. I thought of Daihatsu first because it is a fully-owned affiliate of Toyota specializing in small cars (Toyota's stake in Suzuki at present is just 4.9%). But Suzuki and Toyota are definitely sharing and rebadging vehicles in India, so doing the same in the Czech Republic Aygo plant could make sense. It might, in fact, be perverse revenge by Suzuki on Volkswagen for the way that the alliance between the two fell apart.

...I doubt kei cars can be stretched like that and still satisfy tough European safety regulations (i might be wrong).

Although I can't find the source, I do recall reading that DNGA, though primarily for kei cars, is "scalable" for the 1-liter subcompact segment, and the Toyota Raize / Daihatsu Rocky twins are proof. It's true, though, that all of those are JDM models, and you might be right about DNGA not really being set up for tougher European safety regulations. Perhaps we will see a separate Toyota TNGA-A related to DNGA but differentiating itself by its ability to meet tougher crash standards than DNGA.

Toyota Raize is the same size as new Yaris CUV.

That's right. We did have that conversation in the Toyota Raize thread.

In any case, I dont see Toyota doing Aygo on their own,, they do not know how to build a good cheap car.

Agreed

 

[Tragic Bronson]

So yes, Toyota does not know how to build cheap cars, they will have to partner with someone to use that 300k/yr factory like they did with PSA.

No, I think they can. Europe is lucky that France can continue to build the new XP210 Yaris, while we have the Mazda2. The previous North American Yaris was tough monetary wise to import from Japan and France, so its not surprising that they made the Mazda2 into their entry level vehicle that was already being built in Mexico, which IMO is a short term band aid.

 

[spwolf]

I have to admit that possibility didn't cross my mind. I thought of Daihatsu first because it is a fully-owned affiliate of Toyota specializing in small cars (Toyota's stake in Suzuki at present is just 4.9%). But Suzuki and Toyota are definitely sharing and rebadging vehicles in India, so doing the same in the Czech Republic Aygo plant could make sense. It might, in fact, be perverse revenge by Suzuki on Volkswagen for the way that the alliance between the two fell apart.

I would not call it "just" 4.9%, that is quite nice stake ($900m) and quickly gotten too.

think we will hear about their plans next year, with big success of Ignis and now Jimny, together with Vitara and always popular Swift, they do have a range of small cars that everyone can envy.