2017 Lincoln MKZ, Buick LaCrosse......quite an improvement for both.

[mmcartalk]

.

. Nobody comes to me for advice about Lincoln products, it's never on their automotive radar. Ford products, yes and often.

Well, let's face it....for several years, Lincoln's sales have not been good, period, though the MKC and MKX may finally be addressing that. They lost a good chunk of their limo/livery/executive-car business (and senior citizens) with the former Town Car's demise, and the ho-hum replacements that came out after that were not impressive at all.........I'll be the first one to admit it. Many considered the MKT, for example, so awkward-looking that it was the butt of automotive jokes. Also, selling the brand out of Ford shops (and only selected Ford shops at that) didn't help its image any.

 

[IS-SV]

Well, let's face it....for several years, Lincoln's sales have not been good, period, though the MKC and MKX may finally be addressing that. They lost a good chunk of their limo/livery/executive-car business (and senior citizens) with the former Town Car's demise, and the ho-hum replacements that came out after that were not impressive at all.........I'll be the first one to admit it. Many considered the MKT, for example, so awkward-looking that it was the butt of automotive jokes. Also, selling the brand out of Ford shops (and only selected Ford shops at that) didn't help its image any.

We faced that reality a long time ago, and so have other premium car buyers here.

Yes Lincoln with mostly weak products based on heavily badge-engineered Fords, lack of any class-leading products, mediocre styling, overly high MSRP pricing, average to below average reliability, poor resale value, dumb advertising, lousy non-premium dealerships, lame alphabet soup naming scheme that most actual premium car buyers have no interest in learning have all contributed to poor sales and unimpressive market share in last decade. No wonder nobody comes to me regarding questions about Lincoln products. Only the MKC has experienced reasonable/acceptable sales rate and hopefully that trend continues, (although compared to new Lexus NX sales not so good).

 

[mmcartalk]

We faced that reality a long time ago, and so have other premium car buyers here.

Yes Lincoln with mostly weak products based on heavily badge-engineered Fords, lack of any class-leading products, mediocre styling, overly high MSRP pricing, average to below average reliability, poor resale value, dumb advertising, lousy non-premium dealerships, lame alphabet soup naming scheme that most actual premium car buyers have no interest in learning have all contributed to poor sales and unimpressive market share in last decade.

I agree with much of what you say here, but not necessarily with the rebadged-Ford part. Only the (last-generation) Edge/MKX really came out with a typical cookie-cutter re-badging.....in other words, just an Edge with just some more wood trim and features inside. But other Lincoln adaptations, such as the Taurus/MKS, Flex/MKT, and Fusion/MKZ showed a lot more differences between the Ford and Lincoln styling, even if the underlying platform was the same. The MKT, for instance, went so far off-base that its rear end ended up looking like a upmarket PT Cruiser LOL. And the new MKC, of course looks nothing at all like the Escape its platform is based on.

Only the MKC has experienced reasonable/acceptable sales rate and hopefully that trend continues, (although compared to new Lexus NX sales not so good).

Right now, if I was in market for an SUV, the MKC would personally be my first choice except for one thing: Consumer Reports ranks it low on reliability. And I think you and I have both agreed in the past that CR is a good credible source for auto reliability.

 

[IS-SV]

I agree with much of what you say here, but not necessarily with the rebadged-Ford part. Only the (last-generation) Edge/MKX really came out with a typical cookie-cutter re-badging.....in other words, just an Edge with just some more wood trim and features inside. But other Lincoln adaptations, such as the Taurus/MKS, Flex/MKT, and Fusion/MKZ showed a lot more differences between the Ford and Lincoln styling, even if the underlying platform was the same. The MKT, for instance, went so far off-base that its rear end ended up looking like a upmarket PT Cruiser LOL. And the new MKC, of course looks nothing at all like the Escape its platform is based on.

Let me clarify, badge-engineering can be done well, it's not necessarily a bad thing. Lexus and Porsche are examples of companies that can do it very well, certainly way better than Lincoln. I don't get too hung up on the badge-engineering or re-badging terms.

To that point, even CR when explaining each of the Lincoln models in their publications, explains each model as a rebadged Escape/Edge/Fusion/Flex or whatever because it's the only way to describe these vehicles effectively since they are not close to being class-leading. When the re-badgings are heavily based on the cheaper products as they are at Lincoln, it's obvious to a significant degree especially when considering the unrealistic wannabe premium pricing.

Weak styling, so common at Lincoln, it's another subject.... The latest Ford products are usually styled better than the Lincoln equivalents (including and especially Edge and Fusion).

Specifically the MKC is heavily based on Ford Escape, and as you mentioned the quality/reliability reflects it. Even if the engines are unique, they are recycled Ford engines.

 

[mikeavelli]

While both are greatly improved, the two brands are really opposites here.
Buick now outsells Acura and has completely revived itself and makes no apologies for appealing to older people and being cushy in most instances. The Regal GXP being the lone exception. Their niche has been a great choice. They also do produce handsome cars inside and out and at the worse are inoffensive. I don't find any Buick ugly (though people can love ugly cars if they love the badge)

Lincoln sells worse than Infiniti, has still not found a solid niche and has a product that is low on value in most cases. The addition of a 400hp engine is awesome but the price will be high and the styling still doesn't move the masses. Lincoln is rarely if ever mentioned in the influential circles on a new car to buy.

 

[Gecko]

I spent some time at the Lincoln exhibit at the LA Auto Show and came away with mixed emotions.

Honestly, I think their new cars are good looking from the outside. The new MKZ, Continental concept, MKX and MKC are pretty sharp and I do really like the new face of Lincoln. I think it'll look great on CUVs once it makes its way there.

However, Lincoln has a very long way to go with interiors. Very long. It's a mix of colors and textures that don't quite mesh, and the designs are quite frankly ugly. The upward swooping dashes look like late '90s concept cars. They're not elegant at all, and in the MKX and MKC, it looks like a center console is missing. Lincoln's brown interior color on the MKC has a lot of purple in it, and under the white lights at the auto show, the interior looked purple, brown and tan. Gross.

Steering wheels are very "blah" looking and don't appear premium at all to the eyes or hands. Some nice soft touch surfaces exist, but there are expanses of the dash that just seem very plain and understyled. The electronic buttons on the dash for the shifter have got to go. This transmission concept has potential, but Lincoln needs to look to Jaguar for inspiration. Having 18" of vertical buttons down the dash in place of a transmission shifter is stupid and looks tacky.

Seats were very comfortable and the interior of the MKX was extremely quiet. I think that the MKX is a big step up for Lincoln, but it poses no real threat to the RX or class leaders.

If they refreshed the interior of the MKX, put the new Lincoln face on the front end and dropped that 400hp V6 into it, they'd have an absolute winner.


As for the LaCrosse, the interior press pics are heavily photoshopped, as one would expect. In person, it's very much the same corporate GM stuff - flat, boring door panels, small buttons, cheap looking steering wheel, etc. The overall design is a nice evolution and decent for the class, but we are not talking about an ES 350-slayer by any means. I also find the exterior of the car - aside from the front end - to be quite unattractive.

 

[mmcartalk]

While both are greatly improved, the two brands are really opposites here.
Buick now outsells Acura and has completely revived itself and makes no apologies for appealing to older people and being cushy in most instances. The Regal GXP being the lone exception. Their niche has been a great choice. They also do produce handsome cars inside and out and at the worse are inoffensive. I don't find any Buick ugly (though people can love ugly cars if they love the badge)

Lincoln sells worse than Infiniti, has still not found a solid niche and has a product that is low on value in most cases. The addition of a 400hp engine is awesome but the price will be high and the styling still doesn't move the masses. Lincoln is rarely if ever mentioned in the influential circles on a new car to buy.

Just a small typo, Mike...no big deal. The GXP was the old discontinued Pontiac Grand Prix with the 3.8L supercharged V6. The Buick designation is Regal GS, with a 2.0 turbo four.

BTW, one of the most remarkable comparisons now, between Buick and Acura, is that Buick is now comparable or better in reliability. Acura used to be one of the most reliable brands on the market (comparable to Lexus), but has recently lost ground there, while Buick, thanks to the durability of its Opel-based vehicles, has risen overall.

 

[mikeavelli]

Yes, thanks, I mean the GS!

I spent some time at the Lincoln exhibit at the LA Auto Show and came away with mixed emotions.

Honestly, I think their new cars are good looking from the outside. The new MKZ, Continental concept, MKX and MKC are pretty sharp and I do really like the new face of Lincoln. I think it'll look great on CUVs once it makes its way there.

However, Lincoln has a very long way to go with interiors. Very long. It's a mix of colors and textures that don't quite mesh, and the designs are quite frankly ugly. The upward swooping dashes look like late '90s concept cars. They're not elegant at all, and in the MKX and MKC, it looks like a center console is missing. Lincoln's brown interior color on the MKC has a lot of purple in it, and under the white lights at the auto show, the interior looked purple, brown and tan. Gross.

Steering wheels are very "blah" looking and don't appear premium at all to the eyes or hands. Some nice soft touch surfaces exist, but there are expanses of the dash that just seem very plain and understyled. The electronic buttons on the dash for the shifter have got to go. This transmission concept has potential, but Lincoln needs to look to Jaguar for inspiration. Having 18" of vertical buttons down the dash in place of a transmission shifter is stupid and looks tacky.

Seats were very comfortable and the interior of the MKX was extremely quiet. I think that the MKX is a big step up for Lincoln, but it poses no real threat to the RX or class leaders.

If they refreshed the interior of the MKX, put the new Lincoln face on the front end and dropped that 400hp V6 into it, they'd have an absolute winner.


As for the LaCrosse, the interior press pics are heavily photoshopped, as one would expect. In person, it's very much the same corporate GM stuff - flat, boring door panels, small buttons, cheap looking steering wheel, etc. The overall design is a nice evolution and decent for the class, but we are not talking about an ES 350-slayer by any means. I also find the exterior of the car - aside from the front end - to be quite unattractive.

Nice feedback dude.

 

[mmcartalk]

I spent some time at the Lincoln exhibit at the LA Auto Show and came away with mixed emotions.

Honestly, I think their new cars are good looking from the outside. The new MKZ, Continental concept, MKX and MKC are pretty sharp and I do really like the new face of Lincoln. I think it'll look great on CUVs once it makes its way there.

Did you get to see the Continental up close and/or actually sit in it, or was it up on the turntable and out of physical access?

(During the press event, it might have been open).

However, Lincoln has a very long way to go with interiors. Very long. It's a mix of colors and textures that don't quite mesh, and the designs are quite frankly ugly. The upward swooping dashes look like late '90s concept cars. They're not elegant at all, and in the MKX and MKC, it looks like a center console is missing. Lincoln's brown interior color on the MKC has a lot of purple in it, and under the white lights at the auto show, the interior looked purple, brown and tan. Gross.

The MKC, though, does offer a nice light ivory interior....that would be my choice if I was getting one.

Steering wheels are very "blah" looking and don't appear premium at all to the eyes or hands. Some nice soft touch surfaces exist, but there are expanses of the dash that just seem very plain and understyled. The electronic buttons on the dash for the shifter have got to go. This transmission concept has potential, but Lincoln needs to look to Jaguar for inspiration. Having 18" of vertical buttons down the dash in place of a transmission shifter is stupid and looks tacky.

While I respect your opinion on this, I don't quite agree. I find Jaguar/Chrysler/Land-Rover style rotary-shift knobs more tacky and harder to use than Lincoln's push-buttons. Plus, the new Lincoln push-buttons only require a very light touch with your fingertip, unlike the old Chrysler electro-mechanical push-buttons on the cars I learned to drive on back in the 1960s where you really had to mash them with your finger to get them to work.

Seats were very comfortable and the interior of the MKX was extremely quiet. I think that the MKX is a big step up for Lincoln, but it poses no real threat to the RX or class leaders.

That depends on how well the new RX will sell with that enormous spindle-grille and floating roof-line....but, in general, I agree with you that the RX's general popularity speaks for itself. And, when I went to review one recently, they were selling off the lot faster than I could review them LOL.

As for the LaCrosse, the interior press pics are heavily photoshopped, as one would expect. In person, it's very much the same corporate GM stuff - flat, boring door panels, small buttons, cheap looking steering wheel, etc. The overall design is a nice evolution and decent for the class, but we are not talking about an ES 350-slayer by any means. I also find the exterior of the car - aside from the front end - to be quite unattractive.

Neither the LaCrosse or ES350 can "slay" the other, for that matter.....they are both very popular in the American market, and sell in large numbers. At Lexus, many buy the ES because they really want an LS but can't afford one, while at Buick, they buy the LaCrosse (if they choose to stay with Buick at all) because they were former Lucerne or Park Avenue owners and imply don't have that option any more.

 

[Gecko]

Did you get to see the Continental up close and/or actually sit in it, or was it up on the turntable and out of physical access?

(During the press event, it might have been open).

Nope - it was locked up on a turntable during press and media days, unfortunately.

The MKC, though, does offer a nice light ivory interior....that would be my choice if I was getting one.

That's the color that I saw - the "brown" segments really look very purple in person, unfortunately.

Neither the LaCrosse or ES350 can "slay" the other, for that matter.....they are both very popular in the American market, and sell in large numbers. At Lexus, many buy the ES because they really want an LS but can't afford one, while at Buick, they buy the LaCrosse (if they choose to stay with Buick at all) because they were former Lucerne or Park Avenue owners and imply don't have that option any more.

Agree!

 

[IS-SV]

fyi -

Lexus ES sales YTD October 2015 US sales 52K units
Buick Lacrosse YTD October 2015 US 36K units

 

[Bulldog 1]

At Lexus, many buy the ES because they really want an LS but can't afford one

That's a really poor assumption. What data besides your opinion did you incorporate to quantify this with?
I've NEVER considered an LS or even a GS after having driven one several times as a courtesy loaner overnight.
While both are clearly out of MY price range, the ES continues to be a sales leader for Lexus like the RX as an SUV because it has the perfect combination of size, comfort, power and luxury for the value.
My family was indoctrinated into the world of Lexus because the ES330 was the best bang for the buck lease out there. That's after I had shopped among ALL entry level luxury brands searching for a full sized sedan with an adequate six cylinder engine.
The newer generation ES based on the Avalon platform has INSANE rear leg room in its class.
The only persistent downfall in my nine years of Lexus ownership (3 ES and 5 IS) about the ES is that it's FWD.
My daily driver since 2008/2010/2012/2014/2015 has been an IS and IS F Sport because my background demands a sportier ride.
I love driving the ES on the weekend because it puts me into a softer, large car ride for a change of pace.
The LS is NOT a Halo car for Lexus that drives the masses into the doors only to settle for an ES as you assert.
In my ownership experience, it stands on its own quite well.
To tie this back to the topic at hand, I normally give Buick a shake based on family history but when their lease options exceed Lexus in cost, come on... That's not a choice.
For me and my two car needs, Lexus continues to deliver the best cars for the money in the luxury segment in the automotive industry.
I'm a very brand loyal person, and as long as Lexus continues to exceed my expectations in showroom, sales, service and value for the money, no other brand exists for me outside of due diligence when shopping to satisfy my own mind that I took the time to look around. But since 2006, it's always been a Lexus IS and a Lexus ES.

 

[mmcartalk]

That's a really poor assumption. What data besides your opinion did you incorporate to quantify this with?

The many people I know who own or lease one....a number of whom are friends, colleagues, acquaintances, those who I have shopped with, or those who have come to me for advice. It's an extremely popular sedan, especially with older folks, though also with some not-so-old ones as well). Most of the ones I knew would have chosen or seriously considered an LS, but they either couldn't afford one, or, for whatever reason, chose not to spend the money on one. Might not be good enough reasons for you (and I respect your opinion)...but it's good enough for me.

Happy Thanksgiving, BTW...not only to you and your family, but to everyone on the forum.

 

[mmcartalk]

Neither of which I consider a "real" Lexus.
The NX is a rebadged Toyota RAV4 and the CT might as well be a Scion IMO. #sorrybutnotsorry

That points out a general trend among upmarket/luxury automakers in expanding more downmarket then upmarket.....in contrast to makers like Kia and Hyundai, who are steadily expanding upward (indeed, Hyundai is even getting its own upmarket division). Not only the examples you mention with the CT and NX, but other vehicles like the A3, Cadillac ATS, Lincoln MKC, BMW 1 and 2 series, and Mercedes CLA show that the general trend with size and price with those companies is down, not up. We will, though, soon see new upmarket flagships from both Cadillac and Lincoln....hopefully better than their previous ones LOL.

 

[IS-SV]

Not that LS has anything to do with topic here, and Lexus marketing experts know insignificantly few ES buyers actually cross shop LS.

Just because many Lexus buyers admire LS and many Mercedes buyers admire S550, it's normal for premium brand buyers to aspire and admire the top of line models. Also size considerations come into play more often today, with some buyers unwilling to drive huge cars (versus different criteria for chauffeured cars), but still willing to pay big ticket prices for loaded smaller models.

 

[Gecko]

LS vs ES is not a relevant conversation.

GS vs ES, on the other hand...

 

[mmcartalk]

LS vs ES is not a relevant conversation.

GS vs ES, on the other hand...

All three vehicles, of course (ES/GS/LS), to some extent, have their own distinctive buyer bases (or the type of auto buyer most likely to consider them). In general, though, except for the LS sport version, both the LS and ES are considered less sport-oriented than the GS (or IS).

 

[IS-SV]

All 3 vehicles have Lexus logo on them, not that it's relevant to topic here.

 

[IS-SV]

LS vs ES is not a relevant conversation.

GS vs ES, on the other hand...

Agreed, because GS/ES are closer in both sizing and pricing to each other and to the 2 cars that are topic here.

 

[CIF]

I agree with some others here that I do not find the new LaCrosse or the refreshed MKZ appealing at all. I arguably don't see "quite an improvement" from either of them.

Now mmcartalk, your liking of recent Lincoln and Buick models is well-known and noted, but respectfully many will disagree with you here.

As Gecko mentioned, the MKZ interior is a disaster compared to the top competitors. It truly does look like an interior from the 1990s, in terms of overall materials and craftsmanship. I also agree with his point about the electronic shifter buttons. I too agree that the 400HP engine sounds great on paper, but it makes little difference if the rest of the vehicle is largely uncompetitive. I find the refreshed exterior of the MKZ quite mundane and unappealing as well. The front end doesn't look improved to me, just different. Less ugly than before IMO, but more bland.

Also Gecko's comments on the new LaCrosse are totally spot on. Even though I haven't seen the new LaCrosse in person yet, I have enough experience to be able to see through GM's heavy photoshopping of their PR photos. I also find the new exterior unappealing, and in fact very dated looking, like a vehicle from the 1990s.

At Lexus, many buy the ES because they really want an LS but can't afford one

That's a really poor assumption. What data besides your opinion did you incorporate to quantify this with?
I've NEVER considered an LS or even a GS after having driven one several times as a courtesy loaner overnight.

Just on this note, I would say it's certainly a valid opinion, but no less valid than IS-SV's point. While only Lexus themselves or Lexus dealers (possibly) have such objective data, I think there is strong circumstantial evidence.

Over the years I've met plenty of ES owners that aspired to own an LS, but never did for a variety of reasons. It's not always a question of affordability either. However the point still remains that many dream of, or aspire to own an LS, even if they realistically never will own one. That is a key point of a true flagship product, for it to be inspirational.

LS vs ES is not a relevant conversation.

GS vs ES, on the other hand...

GS vs ES, arguably not so much anymore. The GS this generation has much more clearly established its sporting credentials, and how much of a more focused and sharp-driving vehicle it is vs an ES.

With the previous generations years ago, yes the topic of the ES vs GS was certainly very relevant.