16th Generation Toyota Crown (Sedan, Cross, Sport, Estate/Signia)

What do you think it is?

  • Lexus GS

    Votes: 4 10.0%
  • Toyota Crown

    Votes: 32 80.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 4 10.0%

  • Total voters
    40

ssun30

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But the LC just got an update and the LC 500h has an upgraded battery, which will likely be what the new Crown sedan gets too.
The LC500h battery "upgrade" is actually just updating its ancient 3.6Ah cell from 2017 to the more "modern" 4.0Ah cell from the Mirai, which itself isn't the most recent Li-ion cell design by PEVE.

After reading the full table of all the battery models used by TMC I can't help but question their inventory management ability. They produce dozens of different battery SKUs from different era. It feels like they never think about future-proofing the system by standardizing component sizes and architecture. Same goes for their motors where they have one motor design for one application. What they are doing is like making iPhone 12 13 14 at the same time.

I'm not educated in industrial inventory management, but common sense tells me it would be cheaper to produce single spec SKUs at large volume for use in all their products. Or maybe they really value material costs savings over economy of scale.

And no wonder that hybrid know-how couldn't be transferred to their EVs. EV architecture is all about future proofing and standardization.
 
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Ali Manai

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Some need reminder, if the RX 500h was this fast, there would vids.


Important thing to note in japan all passenger cars are capped at 180, if you watch autobahn of ls500h which also has more sound deadening easily hit 265kph and the power delivery is much smoother than t24a so hoping a slightly upgraded 8gr is the top spec while t24 is the base spec cause a25a just doesn't cut it for this type of vehicle
 

JustADude

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Something about that V6. I've seen Crown Hybrid Max do around mid-low 5s, though it weighs only 100lbs more. This thing does it easily under 5.
 

ssun30

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Something about that V6. I've seen Crown Hybrid Max do around mid-low 5s, though it weighs only 100lbs more. This thing does it easily under 5.
And it has a very undersized and underpowered battery for the application. The V6 multistage isn't in its final form and unfortunately TMC will never let us see its true potential given their track record.

The multistage performs so well because of the multiple reduction mechanism allowing it to accelerate at peak output from 60km/h all the way up to 260km/h.
 

Levi

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And it has a very undersized and underpowered battery for the application. The V6 multistage isn't in its final form and unfortunately TMC will never let us see its true potential given their track record.

The multistage performs so well because of the multiple reduction mechanism allowing it to accelerate at peak output from 60km/h all the way up to 260km/h.
The potential idea of such a setup was shown in 2007 in the real Supra successor, the FT-HS. It measured 4.30 m, made 400 PS with 0-100 km/h in under 4 seconds.

TOYOTA_FTHS_006.jpg


The design was then used for the FT-86. The LC 500h is a 2 door LS so even it more power it cannot reach full potenital due to its weight.
 

Ali Manai

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Will there be a Crown Athlete sedan with this new generation?
I doubt it but there have been rumours that mirai will get an hev powertrain too can't say real or not but being slightly shorter than crown sedan it could be good crown athlete and mark x replacement as the mirai is a little over 2 inches shorter and has shorter wheelbase
 

qtb007

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The LC500h battery "upgrade" is actually just updating its ancient 3.6Ah cell from 2017 to the more "modern" 4.0Ah cell from the Mirai, which itself isn't the most recent Li-ion cell design by PEVE.

After reading the full table of all the battery models used by TMC I can't help but question their inventory management ability. They produce dozens of different battery SKUs from different era. It feels like they never think about future-proofing the system by standardizing component sizes and architecture. Same goes for their motors where they have one motor design for one application. What they are doing is like making iPhone 12 13 14 at the same time.

I'm not educated in industrial inventory management, but common sense tells me it would be cheaper to produce single spec SKUs at large volume for use in all their products. Or maybe they really value material costs savings over economy of scale.

And no wonder that hybrid know-how couldn't be transferred to their EVs. EV architecture is all about future proofing and standardization.
Changing a part number has an enormous cascade effect. Stopping production of the old part and build out has to be managed. The ramp up for capacity of the new part has to be managed even if it is just adopting an existing part (do the existing machines have headroom for the additional capacity?). It has to be synchronized with the request of the vehicle plant building the cars to minimize parts that will be scrapped when the vehicle plant changes over.

Now, say you are through all that. You've already built 2 model years with an old battery and are now switching to a new one. The service parts warehouses will still need to stock both versions. The companies that built the old battery will still need the capability to build the old battery as a service part. The ECU has to be able to make use of that new battery's better capabilities. Now you have another ECU part number (or at least manage the software that is flashed to the ECU). All the repair manuals, etc all need to address the change. Does that new battery and new ECU impact fuel efficiency or emission ratings? That testing needs to be done as well along with filing with the relevant government agencies that control those things.

Unless there is a drastic safety or reliability benefit to the customer, it makes sense to keep building what they are already building in most cases.

And Apple (foxconn, etc) is literally building the SE, 12, 13, and 14 all at the same time. If you buy an iphone 12 today, it was likely built within the last 3-6 months... not back in 2020 when that model launched. Everyone uses JIT manufacturing these days.
 
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internalaudit

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Forgot that the Crown Crossover type is the least appealing in terms of exterior design.

The Sport Type looks really good and the interior is great, just like in the all-new Prius and the Lexus UX.

I wonder if it will drive as well as it looks though, knowing Toyota haha.

1 minute into the clip:
 

Ali Manai

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According to some people on twitter who claim to have good relations with dealers say that many people who bought the crown cross have inquired whether there will be trade in deals for the sedan, if true toyota should be really careful with this one and not mess this up
 

ssun30

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Changing a part number has an enormous cascade effect. Stopping production of the old part and build out has to be managed. The ramp up for capacity of the new part has to be managed even if it is just adopting an existing part (do the existing machines have headroom for the additional capacity?). It has to be synchronized with the request of the vehicle plant building the cars to minimize parts that will be scrapped when the vehicle plant changes over.

Now, say you are through all that. You've already built 2 model years with an old battery and are now switching to a new one. The service parts warehouses will still need to stock both versions. The companies that built the old battery will still need the capability to build the old battery as a service part. The ECU has to be able to make use of that new battery's better capabilities. Now you have another ECU part number (or at least manage the software that is flashed to the ECU). All the repair manuals, etc all need to address the change. Does that new battery and new ECU impact fuel efficiency or emission ratings? That testing needs to be done as well along with filing with the relevant government agencies that control those things.

Unless there is a drastic safety or reliability benefit to the customer, it makes sense to keep building what they are already building in most cases.

And Apple (foxconn, etc) is literally building the SE, 12, 13, and 14 all at the same time. If you buy an iphone 12 today, it was likely built within the last 3-6 months... not back in 2020 when that model launched. Everyone uses JIT manufacturing these days.
Thanks for the detailed reply.

But what you said here kind of validated my argument. The problem is exactly that they keep too many SKUs even for similar products that should be simplified into fewer, interchangeable parts. An example is the A25A-FXS based hybrid systems.

With the new Crown Crossover they introduced a "small 350h" system with the 88kW 3NM motor, same as the previous 300h system. So now the 350h system has two different hybrid transaxles (P710 and P810).

This new "small 350h" system uses a 230.4V 5Ah NiMH battery that is shared with the "small 500h" system used on the Crown hybrid max. But the hybrid max has a higher amp rating (250A) and bigger cooling system. The Highlander and Sienna hybrids use a 288V 6.5Ah NiMH battery. But then on the NX350h, it's a 259V 4.3Ah Li-ion battery. On the RX350h it's another SKU, a 259V 5Ah NiMH battery. On the RX500h it's again a new part not shared with the Crown hybrid max, a 288V 5Ah NiMH battery.

If we now count the 300h system, we also have a 259V 6.5Ah NiMH (Camry hybrid XLE), a 259V 4.0Ah Li-ion (Camry hybrid LE), a 245V 6.5Ah NiMH (ES300h, RAV4 hybrid) and a 252V 3.7Ah Li-ion (Harrier/Venza).

So for just two powertrains, 300h and 350h, they have to keep 8 different battery SKUs, and if we include 500h, 10 SKUs. It makes zero sense the battery from the RAV4 hybrid is not interchangebale with a Harrier, NX, ES, or Camry. If I get any part for an A25A-FXS engine, I could use it to fix any of the models above, but not for the battery. It makes zero sense the Camry and ES300h use 3 different battery SKUs when they roll off the same line.

We also see this lack of interchangeability in the bZ4X. The industry has been using standardized form factors since 2018. Yet Toyota decides to use two completely different form factors for the Panasonic-equipped and CATL-equipped models.
 

qtb007

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Without getting too into the weeds, the batteries are modular in their construction. The one plant I visited built like 8 different iterations that were made up of the same basic cells just configured differently for the vehicle they fit into. 5, 7, and 8 stacks with different variations based on connector location and battery housing. So, even though the actual battery part number or output isn't identical from vehicle to vehicle, they are getting economies of scale in the manufacturing of it.

There's always a lot of "why don't the manufacturers do X, Y, and Z" when outside looking in. My experience is that people on the inside are asking those questions and there are usually pretty solid reason why the manufacturers aren't doing X, Y, and Z. Anything from capacity to logistics to regulation can be enough to sink what seems like a solid idea on the surface.
 

Levi

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Shouldn’t there probably be a thread for every Crown model or is it fine have them all in one?

I am wondering what the Crown sedan will cost, and which will cost more, 8GR hybrid or hydrogen. Here (France) Mirai starts at 73K, LS 500h starts at 113K, that is a 40K difference. Crown sedan hybrid might bring the already abysmal LS sales to almost zero.