Lexus Falls Behind Genesis in J.D. Power 2020 Dependability Study

Wow. Korea has really stepped their game up. But the gap between Lexus and Toyota is smaller than the gap between Genesis and Hyundai.

My business is nothing like, or compared to TMC, but even I realize that complacency is death.

Toyota is only ~80 years old or so, and Lexus has only been around ~30 years. You can't repeatedly have a "lost decade" of innovation/product renewals for key models when you're that young of a company.

The idea that they throw up their hands, terminate/repurpose (see Mirai gen2) what's in the pipe, and go full-bore on something new (which is a good thing) without caring about the transitional time in between is insanity.

5 years is forever these days. Especially for companies and brands. You give people a 5 year gap in stuff to get excited about online, and getting those people back in a meaningful way beyond eliciting "Woah! Lexus is back!" (from people before they step into their car from another luxury brand that they don't plan on replacing for another 3 to 5 years at least) is going to be a huge challenge.

Genesis was started in Q4 2015 as it's own brand (5-10 years if you consider the first models). In ~5-10 years they have approximately matched Lexus for dependability. I say matched and not surpassed because the size of their lineup means they have less model complexity to drive down dependability. That said, this is not good for Toyota/Lexus. Buick, of all makes, is right on your tail too.

Reliability and dependability don't cut it anymore as key differentiators. Especially as we move to simpler, electric platforms.

I'm really hoping that Toyota/Lexus are going to really show what they can do during the transition to BEVs, and with the self-driving/safety technology they've invested in. That stuff should be difficult to recreate, unless/until some centralized supplier of a comparable system comes along (see ubiquity of ZF transmissions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_8HP_transmission#Applications). By then they should hopefully have refined their image to one of an innovator with the execution/dependability of a status-quo automaker.

Not the sportiest. That's fine, it's sporty enough given other things like luxury.
Not the most luxurious. That's fine too, it's luxurious enough given other things like sportiness.
Not the most tech-forward. That's understandable, it helps drive dependability and reliability.
Not the most dependable. It happens, concessions have to be made for innovation.

All of the above at the same time? That's not OK. I would say it could be a value-focused alternative to Porsche, but even then we're seeing luxury vans cracking $150k and the LCF will probably be a $250k car, not to mention the $3-4 million boat, and whatever the jet will be.

I love you TMC and Lexus. Please get yourselves together and be the company we all know you can be!

Someone tell me if my long rant posts on here are getting old.

EDIT:

EV startup Canoo first gained attention back in September 2019 when it announced its plans to launch the world's first subscription-only electric vehicle. Now, it's joining forces with Hyundai to develop an all-electric, scalable EV platform, which could make for simpler and cheaper models in the future.

The partnership focuses on Canoo's (relatively) unique skateboard design, which utilizes a pared-back approach to EV building. Each component serves multiple purposes, meaning the platform is smaller and lighter than traditional EV platforms, which means lower prices. The skateboard base is a self-contained unit that can be paired with any cabin design, although the partnership will use it for upcoming Hyundai and Kia models.

This streamlined "mix and match" approach could be a real boon for the EV industry, especially when cost remains a big barrier to adoption. No doubt it'll also serve Hyundai's sustainability goals well, too -- the company wants eco-friendly vehicles to comprise 25 percent of its total sales by 2025. However, EVs and their infrastructure is still a largely experimental area, and there are numerous tie-ups that haven't yet come to fruition. This partnership does, however, illustrate possibilities for the industry.

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This lack of investment at Lexus is really showing... And this one is really bad for the brand!

Well let me say this. I'm a long Lexus fan, never bought anything but Lexus. And I bought a lot of them. And for the first time in years I have started to look at different brands.

At least we know it's an easy transition to BEVs for Toyota/Lexus (and some Tesla fanatics couldn't believe it but we all knew with the best hybrid systems, it was going to be a cinch) and we're just waiting for the Summer Olympics to find out more about these solid state batteries (lithium-sulfur) and how safer and better they are. I think Toyota does have a good shot with the industry moving towards BEVs as long as they don't screw up the exterior design language and come up with decent offerings. Battery is after all what makes or breaks a BEV and I'm definitely not willing to pay top dollar (close to full MSRP) for current state li-ion battery BEVs, a used one I'll definitely consider as long as it's reasonably priced.

This company is going for similar battery chemistry:

In a few weeks, I'll be getting my first (used) Lexus in a 2012 CT200h F Sport. Can't wait

@internalaudit , timing is also crucial...

If they’re planning to launch proper BEV’s priced (Since base-spec UX300e will be around, or more expensive than a TM3 SR+) only by 2025... I’m doomed... I really don’t want to keep my current car 5 more years...

By the way, if we got CT’s at 6k€... I would be joining you 😜

Will1991 said:

@internalaudit , timing is also crucial...

If they’re planning to launch proper BEV’s priced (Since base-spec UX300e will be around, or more expensive than a TM3 SR+) only by 2025... I’m doomed... I really don’t want to keep my current car 5 more years...

By the way, if we got CT’s at 6k€... I would be joining you 😜

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I hope they come up with SSB BEVs sooner than later but with the JV with Panasonic, it's probably going to happen sooner. SSB (various format) probably have double the longevity of current li-ion so either I buy new SSB BEV or I buy a used li-ion BEV down the road for 50% off or even less (anything with battery warranty gone will be fair game lol, usually due to distance traveled). So far maybe I'm thinking the Taycan 4s with a minimum of torque vectoring, even if it's clutch-based and not electric motors-based.

With my CT, I think I can wait patiently without worrying about any of our cars breaking down (in the next while) and costing thousands to repair (one Lexus, one Toyota, one Honda).

Deusex said:

Well let me say this. I'm a long Lexus fan, never bought anything but Lexus. And I bought a lot of them. And for the first time in years I have started to look at different brands.

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I will be in a similar situation. Never bought anything other than Lexus/Toyota. What brands are you considering? One issue I have encountered is the way some other brand dealerships treat customers (hospitality, attitude, openness to concerns, etc). For example, in my area, Mercedes sucks. It is even worst than a mass market brand.

Lexus has much more models than Genesis. If Genesis had 5 SUV's/CUV's, 2 coupes, and 4 sedans would Genesis still be more reliable/dependable than Lexus? Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for Genesis and hopefully this will wake Lexus up and strive to be even more reliable/dependable...

The scores go up and down every year,Lexus has floated between 89-110 so its not like they're unable to reach 89 for the "brand ranking" score. I see this as a good thing, finally somebody is challenging Lexus in their home court, the dependability race is on.

Porsche isn't number two either, they got knocked out of second place by Buick. If we're not about double standards here, does that mean Porsche is complacent or obviously lacking investment?

Meanwhile, Mercedes, which many want Lexus to copy, couldn't even make the graphic.

Remember too that these scores aren't just things you'd normally think of as dependability: stereo/nav complaints are included, for instance. I'd be curious to see a breakdown of what got reported on what models.

As much as I respect that Genesis has done a good job in this area, JDPA metrics are still suspect.

Can anyone tell me the entire point of Acura and Infiniti? Not sporty, not luxury, old products and worse of all you are paying more for a consistently less reliable product.

mikeavelli said:

Can anyone tell me the entire point of Acura and Infiniti? Not sporty, not luxury, old products and worse of all you are paying more for a consistently less reliable product.

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I know some people like how Infiniti looks. I personally think their cars look good too. I don't really know why people are buying acura.. they probably think they are as reliable as Lexus.

For the more knowledgeable, SH-AWD but that Sports Hybrid SH-AWD will be appealing to me once offered in future Acura BEVs. Electric motors with torque vectoring are going to be a blast.

Definitely Acura reliability is not as good as it once was but its past motors were made to last -- 02 Civic at 273,000 km still runs fine and 11 Accord with 142,000 km still driving like 90% new. Manual transmission on the Civic still good and on the original clutch.

I've sat in every Genesis product when I was in USA and I would say the interior design and finish is not quite Lexus level yet. A Genesis feels very solid and upscale until you get into a Lexus. They are definitely better than Acura and Infiniti now. The USDM Genesis is even better than the locally-produced ChDM BMW and Audi.

My favourite by far is the G80 as it feels more like a traditional LWB E-segment sedan; it is the spiritual successor to the Crown which is unfortunately JDM-only now. There's something about it that makes it feel more solid than the ES, although that could be just bias.

I don't get the hype around the G70. It suffers the same problem as the IS: severely lack of practicality. The front row is not very spacious, while the rear seats are borderline unusable.

The G90 feels more oldschool than the LS and maybe that's why some LS loyalists seem to like it. The LS interior instantly makes me feel I am buying something special, while the G90 interior is 'just better materials'. I can see the charm of the V8, but let's face it, even Hyundai is phasing out the 5.0L in favor of an up-rated 3.3 V6TT in future cars and the G90 V8's days are numbered.

Tragic Bronson said:

As much as I respect that Genesis has done a good job in this area, JDPA metrics are still suspect.

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I agree. I have a hard time believing any dependability survey that has VW in the top 10, and Cadillac, no way no how. I owned a 2010 VW GTI.... I call BS.

ssun30 said:

I've sat in every Genesis product when I was in USA and I would say the interior design and finish is not quite Lexus level yet. A Genesis feels very solid and upscale until you get into a Lexus. They are definitely better than Acura and Infiniti now. The USDM Genesis is even better than the locally-produced ChDM BMW and Audi.

My favourite by far is the G80 as it feels more like a traditional LWB E-segment sedan; it is the spiritual successor to the Crown which is unfortunately JDM-only now. There's something about it that makes it feel more solid than the ES, although that could be just bias.

I don't get the hype around the G70. It suffers the same problem as the IS: severely lack of practicality. The front row is not very spacious, while the rear seats are borderline unusable.

The G90 feels more oldschool than the LS and maybe that's why some LS loyalists seem to like it. The LS interior instantly makes me feel I am buying something special, while the G90 interior is 'just better materials'. I can see the charm of the V8, but let's face it, even Hyundai is phasing out the 5.0L in favor of an up-rated 3.3 V6TT in future cars and the G90 V8's days are numbered.

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You bring up many good points in your post. While Lexus, as well as other luxury brands, would be foolish to dismiss Genesis, I have found the overall fit an finish (specifically the interior) of the Genesis models not quite up to Lexus standards. That being said, the people at Genesis/Hyundai are learning fast. If Lexus continues to rest on their laurels, Genesis will surpass Lexus quality in a matter of a few shirt years.

I have never owned a Hyundai or Kia product, but these two makes definitely intrigue me. I recently attended the Cincinnati Auto Expo and sat in a number of Hyundai and Kia products, as well as Genesis. They are moving in the right direction. I was actually impressed with the Elantra GT N-Line. Not a bad little hatch for under $30k. Hyundai and Kia are definitely a good case study in how a corporation can successfully turn around public perception and turn around the quality of their products. As a Lexus/Toyota fan, I hope they are able to stay ahead of the Korean makes.

Tragic Bronson said:

As much as I respect that Genesis has done a good job in this area, JDPA metrics are still suspect.

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Agree. Remember, in the end, what is being reported are basically owners’s perceptions and opinions. Still, the general public buys into what is reported by JDPA.