First 2019 Lexus ES Sedan Rolls Off Production Line in Kentucky

spwolf

i trust you are in europe since you are mentioning Talisman? I mean it is not a luxury car. I dont think anyone cares that it has AWS at all.
Audi's or BMWs or MBs in this class dont have AWS, so I dont think how that equates to heated seats.


it is particular luxurious vehicle... and it is selling pretty poorly. Attached is the one my friend has.

ssun30

Well, you just listed the reason why AWS is not a priority feature. Manufacturers know well which feature are more desirable for the money, and they prioritize those that people are willing to pay extra money for.

AWS will happen at some point, we just need to be patient.

Yes I am in Europe.

I will not die without AWS, but the same way I will not die without AWD. That does not mean AWD cannot be beneficial, nor that AWS is not beneficial. Subaru made AWD cars long before any other car makers, and made it their USP. Customers (not enthusiast) are not always informed about new technology/features, but were recently 'sold' AWD as the latest German thing (Quattro/xDrive/4Matic) that will make you drive like Alonso in any condition (not true). I have always liked the possibilities given by AWS (passive/active mechanical/electric rear wheel-steering), and the Japanese, especially Honda made it on many cars. AWS is not crucial, but better than many other features for me, so would come top on the list of not necessary features. The problem I have, it the Germans will sell AWS as the next best thing, and they were 'first'. VAG has AWS on all its expensive cars and it will trickle down on the next A4. I also expect the next 3 Series to get AWS optionally, it will no more be related to the FWD 1 Series, but the RWD 5 Series. Normal customer will never know that Talisman also has AWS (or had it before). Normal customer will not know that even the Megane in RS guise, has AWS. Nothing can beat German marketing, I and dislike it, because it is deceptive. I also dislike feature 'brands', like 4Control, Renault's rear-wheel-steering. Which customer can understand what it means? And without repeating it like the Germans, a customer will not remember. Every generic customer that has once shopped for a new car, and considered AWD, has heard of Quattro. Porsche for example is also guilty of dumbing down customers, with all their abbreviations, when all the customer cares about is the Porsche badge. Only those interested/working in the field know what something stands for and what it really does.

Why I mention AWS with regards to the ES, is because according to Lexus, whether it replaces the GS' customers or not, the goal is to bring a younger customer. I expect the ES to be not only comfortable, but also sportier and better handling. AWS, with would help. AWD more helps with grip, not handling (unless torque vectoring).

PS: I am not bashing German engineering. They are very good, world class at machinery, components, automation, whatever a lot of high tech, but cars are not what they do well/better than others. Their carmakers are specially good at marketing. Their 'deceptive' marketing (and other dirty tricks, hint: media) blows everything out of the water.

spwolf

i trust you are in europe since you are mentioning Talisman? I mean it is not a luxury car. I dont think anyone cares that it has AWS at all.
Audi's or BMWs or MBs in this class dont have AWS, so I dont think how that equates to heated seats.


it is particular luxurious vehicle... and it is selling pretty poorly. Attached is the one my friend has.

ssun30

Well, you just listed the reason why AWS is not a priority feature. Manufacturers know well which feature are more desirable for the money, and they prioritize those that people are willing to pay extra money for.

AWS will happen at some point, we just need to be patient.

Yes I am in Europe.

I will not die without AWS, but the same way I will not die without AWD. That does not mean AWD cannot be beneficial, nor that AWS is not beneficial. Subaru made AWD cars long before any other car makers, and made it their USP. Customers (not enthusiast) are not always informed about new technology/features, but were recently 'sold' AWD as the latest German thing (Quattro/xDrive/4Matic) that will make you drive like Alonso in any condition (not true). I have always liked the possibilities given by AWS (passive/active mechanical/electric rear wheel-steering), and the Japanese, especially Honda made it on many cars. AWS is not crucial, but better than many other features for me, so would come top on the list of not necessary features. The problem I have, it the Germans will sell AWS as the next best thing, and they were 'first'. VAG has AWS on all its expensive cars and it will trickle down on the next A4. I also expect the next 3 Series to get AWS optionally, it will no more be related to the FWD 1 Series, but the RWD 5 Series. Normal customer will never know that Talisman also has AWS (or had it before). Normal customer will not know that even the Megane in RS guise, has AWS. Nothing can beat German marketing, I and dislike it, because it is deceptive. I also dislike feature 'brands', like 4Control, Renault's rear-wheel-steering. Which customer can understand what it means? And without repeating it like the Germans, a customer will not remember. Every generic customer that has once shopped for a new car, and considered AWD, has heard of Quattro. Porsche for example is also guilty of dumbing down customers, with all their abbreviations, when all the customer cares about is the Porsche badge. Only those interested/working in the field know what something stands for and what it really does.

Why I mention AWS with regards to the ES, is because according to Lexus, whether it replaces the GS' customers or not, the goal is to bring a younger customer. I expect the ES to be not only comfortable, but also sportier and better handling. AWS, with would help. AWD more helps with grip, not handling (unless torque vectoring).

PS: I am not bashing German engineering. They are very good, world class at machinery, components, automation, whatever a lot of high tech, but cars are not what they do well/better than others. Their carmakers are specially good at marketing. Their 'deceptive' marketing (and other dirty tricks, hint: media) blows everything out of the water.

spwolf

i trust you are in europe since you are mentioning Talisman? I mean it is not a luxury car. I dont think anyone cares that it has AWS at all.
Audi's or BMWs or MBs in this class dont have AWS, so I dont think how that equates to heated seats.


it is particular luxurious vehicle... and it is selling pretty poorly. Attached is the one my friend has.

ssun30

Well, you just listed the reason why AWS is not a priority feature. Manufacturers know well which feature are more desirable for the money, and they prioritize those that people are willing to pay extra money for.

AWS will happen at some point, we just need to be patient.

Yes I am in Europe.

I will not die without AWS, but the same way I will not die without AWD. That does not mean AWD cannot be beneficial, nor that AWS is not beneficial. Subaru made AWD cars long before any other car makers, and made it their USP. Customers (not enthusiast) are not always informed about new technology/features, but were recently 'sold' AWD as the latest German thing (Quattro/xDrive/4Matic) that will make you drive like Alonso in any condition (not true). I have always liked the possibilities given by AWS (passive/active mechanical/electric rear wheel-steering), and the Japanese, especially Honda made it on many cars. AWS is not crucial, but better than many other features for me, so would come top on the list of not necessary features. The problem I have, it the Germans will sell AWS as the next best thing, and they were 'first'. VAG has AWS on all its expensive cars and it will trickle down on the next A4. I also expect the next 3 Series to get AWS optionally, it will no more be related to the FWD 1 Series, but the RWD 5 Series. Normal customer will never know that Talisman also has AWS (or had it before). Normal customer will not know that even the Megane in RS guise, has AWS. Nothing can beat German marketing, I and dislike it, because it is deceptive. I also dislike feature 'brands', like 4Control, Renault's rear-wheel-steering. Which customer can understand what it means? And without repeating it like the Germans, a customer will not remember. Every generic customer that has once shopped for a new car, and considered AWD, has heard of Quattro. Porsche for example is also guilty of dumbing down customers, with all their abbreviations, when all the customer cares about is the Porsche badge. Only those interested/working in the field know what something stands for and what it really does.

Why I mention AWS with regards to the ES, is because according to Lexus, whether it replaces the GS' customers or not, the goal is to bring a younger customer. I expect the ES to be not only comfortable, but also sportier and better handling. AWS, with would help. AWD more helps with grip, not handling (unless torque vectoring).

PS: I am not bashing German engineering. They are very good, world class at machinery, components, automation, whatever a lot of high tech, but cars are not what they do well/better than others. Their carmakers are specially good at marketing. Their 'deceptive' marketing (and other dirty tricks, hint: media) blows everything out of the water.

Levi

Yes I am in Europe.

I will not die without AWS, but the same way I will not die without AWD. That does not mean AWD cannot be beneficial, nor that AWS is not beneficial. Subaru made AWD cars long before any other car makers, and made it their USP. Customers (not enthusiast) are not always informed about new technology/features, but were recently 'sold' AWD as the latest German thing (Quattro/xDrive/4Matic) that will make you drive like Alonso in any condition (not true). I have always liked the possibilities given by AWS (passive/active mechanical/electric rear wheel-steering), and the Japanese, especially Honda made it on many cars.

Toyota is very bad at selling things that have low take rate. It ties up R&D and manufacturing and instead of doing that they can offer the car for cheaper with more standard features.

For instance I think with 4GS, RWS was very hard to find since it had very low take rate. Same for night vision and stuff like that.

With ES, they have to make sure they basics are right, not just the top end version. Something that Renault did not get with their Talisman for instance, so the resale value is in the drain right now.

Levi

Yes I am in Europe.

I will not die without AWS, but the same way I will not die without AWD. That does not mean AWD cannot be beneficial, nor that AWS is not beneficial. Subaru made AWD cars long before any other car makers, and made it their USP. Customers (not enthusiast) are not always informed about new technology/features, but were recently 'sold' AWD as the latest German thing (Quattro/xDrive/4Matic) that will make you drive like Alonso in any condition (not true). I have always liked the possibilities given by AWS (passive/active mechanical/electric rear wheel-steering), and the Japanese, especially Honda made it on many cars.

Toyota is very bad at selling things that have low take rate. It ties up R&D and manufacturing and instead of doing that they can offer the car for cheaper with more standard features.

For instance I think with 4GS, RWS was very hard to find since it had very low take rate. Same for night vision and stuff like that.

With ES, they have to make sure they basics are right, not just the top end version. Something that Renault did not get with their Talisman for instance, so the resale value is in the drain right now.

Levi

Yes I am in Europe.

I will not die without AWS, but the same way I will not die without AWD. That does not mean AWD cannot be beneficial, nor that AWS is not beneficial. Subaru made AWD cars long before any other car makers, and made it their USP. Customers (not enthusiast) are not always informed about new technology/features, but were recently 'sold' AWD as the latest German thing (Quattro/xDrive/4Matic) that will make you drive like Alonso in any condition (not true). I have always liked the possibilities given by AWS (passive/active mechanical/electric rear wheel-steering), and the Japanese, especially Honda made it on many cars.

Toyota is very bad at selling things that have low take rate. It ties up R&D and manufacturing and instead of doing that they can offer the car for cheaper with more standard features.

For instance I think with 4GS, RWS was very hard to find since it had very low take rate. Same for night vision and stuff like that.

With ES, they have to make sure they basics are right, not just the top end version. Something that Renault did not get with their Talisman for instance, so the resale value is in the drain right now.

Levi

Yes I am in Europe.

I will not die without AWS, but the same way I will not die without AWD. That does not mean AWD cannot be beneficial, nor that AWS is not beneficial. Subaru made AWD cars long before any other car makers, and made it their USP. Customers (not enthusiast) are not always informed about new technology/features, but were recently 'sold' AWD as the latest German thing (Quattro/xDrive/4Matic) that will make you drive like Alonso in any condition (not true). I have always liked the possibilities given by AWS (passive/active mechanical/electric rear wheel-steering), and the Japanese, especially Honda made it on many cars.

Toyota is very bad at selling things that have low take rate. It ties up R&D and manufacturing and instead of doing that they can offer the car for cheaper with more standard features.

For instance I think with 4GS, RWS was very hard to find since it had very low take rate. Same for night vision and stuff like that.

With ES, they have to make sure they basics are right, not just the top end version. Something that Renault did not get with their Talisman for instance, so the resale value is in the drain right now.

spwolf

Toyota is very bad at selling things that have low take rate. It ties up R&D and manufacturing and instead of doing that they can offer the car for cheaper with more standard features.

For instance I think with 4GS, RWS was very hard to find since it had very low take rate. Same for night vision and stuff like that.

With ES, they have to make sure they basics are right, not just the top end version. Something that Renault did not get with their Talisman for instance, so the resale value is in the drain right now.

I'm sorry for not being able to articulate my thoughts clearly. I hope this example will help.

Carguide March 2005 - Lexus GS 430 Review

But we wonder about the rear-view camera on the test car. Some people say they are essential on four-wheel drives, to stop people backing over their children in the driveway. But a gimmick is still a gimmick. And will people actually rely on the camera for reversing and bump-free parking once they have shown it off to their friends?

Source (March 2005): https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-reviews/lexus-shapes-up-to-luxury-rivals-8688

Carguide March 2015 - Why rear cameras should be compulsory on all cars

Emma Cockburn, the mother of a 15-month-old killed in a driveway reversing accident four years ago, has renewed calls for rear cameras to become compulsory. [...]The US will make rear-view cameras compulsory on all passenger vehicles from 2018.

Source (March 2015): https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/why-rear-cameras-should-be-compulsory-on-all-cars-31401


Now, you hear your neighbor talk about how great his A Class because of its backup camera and trunk that opens with his foot, and why German cars are the best.


It is the wrong thread to discuss about tech, whether it is necessary or not. Unfortunately tech is mostly a marketing tool. Some tech can be good, but too expensive for the customer that cares about the badge only or the basics at least, and as you say, is just not worth the development, that has to be integrated in the supply chain of a mass produced vehicle.

But back to tech and Toyota's new mechanical AWD for FF-T cars, do you think torque vectoring is really worthy and necessary? Is it really more simple and less complicated? If it were, it could have been standard on RC-F, rather than optional, unless Lexus wants to make some good profit, which is justifiable for a business. I doubt customers would notice any difference between in real world usage. But media with their technical tests will point out that Toyota has an inferior and outdated system, so Toyota has no choice but to upgrade.

spwolf

Toyota is very bad at selling things that have low take rate. It ties up R&D and manufacturing and instead of doing that they can offer the car for cheaper with more standard features.

For instance I think with 4GS, RWS was very hard to find since it had very low take rate. Same for night vision and stuff like that.

With ES, they have to make sure they basics are right, not just the top end version. Something that Renault did not get with their Talisman for instance, so the resale value is in the drain right now.

I'm sorry for not being able to articulate my thoughts clearly. I hope this example will help.

Carguide March 2005 - Lexus GS 430 Review

But we wonder about the rear-view camera on the test car. Some people say they are essential on four-wheel drives, to stop people backing over their children in the driveway. But a gimmick is still a gimmick. And will people actually rely on the camera for reversing and bump-free parking once they have shown it off to their friends?

Source (March 2005): https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-reviews/lexus-shapes-up-to-luxury-rivals-8688

Carguide March 2015 - Why rear cameras should be compulsory on all cars

Emma Cockburn, the mother of a 15-month-old killed in a driveway reversing accident four years ago, has renewed calls for rear cameras to become compulsory. [...]The US will make rear-view cameras compulsory on all passenger vehicles from 2018.

Source (March 2015): https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/why-rear-cameras-should-be-compulsory-on-all-cars-31401


Now, you hear your neighbor talk about how great his A Class because of its backup camera and trunk that opens with his foot, and why German cars are the best.


It is the wrong thread to discuss about tech, whether it is necessary or not. Unfortunately tech is mostly a marketing tool. Some tech can be good, but too expensive for the customer that cares about the badge only or the basics at least, and as you say, is just not worth the development, that has to be integrated in the supply chain of a mass produced vehicle.

But back to tech and Toyota's new mechanical AWD for FF-T cars, do you think torque vectoring is really worthy and necessary? Is it really more simple and less complicated? If it were, it could have been standard on RC-F, rather than optional, unless Lexus wants to make some good profit, which is justifiable for a business. I doubt customers would notice any difference between in real world usage. But media with their technical tests will point out that Toyota has an inferior and outdated system, so Toyota has no choice but to upgrade.

spwolf

Toyota is very bad at selling things that have low take rate. It ties up R&D and manufacturing and instead of doing that they can offer the car for cheaper with more standard features.

For instance I think with 4GS, RWS was very hard to find since it had very low take rate. Same for night vision and stuff like that.

With ES, they have to make sure they basics are right, not just the top end version. Something that Renault did not get with their Talisman for instance, so the resale value is in the drain right now.

I'm sorry for not being able to articulate my thoughts clearly. I hope this example will help.

Carguide March 2005 - Lexus GS 430 Review

But we wonder about the rear-view camera on the test car. Some people say they are essential on four-wheel drives, to stop people backing over their children in the driveway. But a gimmick is still a gimmick. And will people actually rely on the camera for reversing and bump-free parking once they have shown it off to their friends?

Source (March 2005): https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-reviews/lexus-shapes-up-to-luxury-rivals-8688

Carguide March 2015 - Why rear cameras should be compulsory on all cars

Emma Cockburn, the mother of a 15-month-old killed in a driveway reversing accident four years ago, has renewed calls for rear cameras to become compulsory. [...]The US will make rear-view cameras compulsory on all passenger vehicles from 2018.

Source (March 2015): https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/why-rear-cameras-should-be-compulsory-on-all-cars-31401


Now, you hear your neighbor talk about how great his A Class because of its backup camera and trunk that opens with his foot, and why German cars are the best.


It is the wrong thread to discuss about tech, whether it is necessary or not. Unfortunately tech is mostly a marketing tool. Some tech can be good, but too expensive for the customer that cares about the badge only or the basics at least, and as you say, is just not worth the development, that has to be integrated in the supply chain of a mass produced vehicle.

But back to tech and Toyota's new mechanical AWD for FF-T cars, do you think torque vectoring is really worthy and necessary? Is it really more simple and less complicated? If it were, it could have been standard on RC-F, rather than optional, unless Lexus wants to make some good profit, which is justifiable for a business. I doubt customers would notice any difference between in real world usage. But media with their technical tests will point out that Toyota has an inferior and outdated system, so Toyota has no choice but to upgrade.

spwolf

Toyota is very bad at selling things that have low take rate. It ties up R&D and manufacturing and instead of doing that they can offer the car for cheaper with more standard features.

For instance I think with 4GS, RWS was very hard to find since it had very low take rate. Same for night vision and stuff like that.

With ES, they have to make sure they basics are right, not just the top end version. Something that Renault did not get with their Talisman for instance, so the resale value is in the drain right now.

I'm sorry for not being able to articulate my thoughts clearly. I hope this example will help.

Carguide March 2005 - Lexus GS 430 Review

But we wonder about the rear-view camera on the test car. Some people say they are essential on four-wheel drives, to stop people backing over their children in the driveway. But a gimmick is still a gimmick. And will people actually rely on the camera for reversing and bump-free parking once they have shown it off to their friends?

Source (March 2005): https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-reviews/lexus-shapes-up-to-luxury-rivals-8688

Carguide March 2015 - Why rear cameras should be compulsory on all cars

Emma Cockburn, the mother of a 15-month-old killed in a driveway reversing accident four years ago, has renewed calls for rear cameras to become compulsory. [...]The US will make rear-view cameras compulsory on all passenger vehicles from 2018.

Source (March 2015): https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/why-rear-cameras-should-be-compulsory-on-all-cars-31401


Now, you hear your neighbor talk about how great his A Class because of its backup camera and trunk that opens with his foot, and why German cars are the best.


It is the wrong thread to discuss about tech, whether it is necessary or not. Unfortunately tech is mostly a marketing tool. Some tech can be good, but too expensive for the customer that cares about the badge only or the basics at least, and as you say, is just not worth the development, that has to be integrated in the supply chain of a mass produced vehicle.

But back to tech and Toyota's new mechanical AWD for FF-T cars, do you think torque vectoring is really worthy and necessary? Is it really more simple and less complicated? If it were, it could have been standard on RC-F, rather than optional, unless Lexus wants to make some good profit, which is justifiable for a business. I doubt customers would notice any difference between in real world usage. But media with their technical tests will point out that Toyota has an inferior and outdated system, so Toyota has no choice but to upgrade.

There was a time when Japanese manufacturers put every tech gimmick out there even on economy cars. Like adjustable semi-active suspension, CD-ROM Satnav, oscillating AC vents, four wheel steering, the list goes on. And guess what happened? Their automotive industry crashed and burnt. This kind of situation only happens when the economy is healthy. Once another recession hits people will go back to the basics, and the Germans will dial back on their feature race. An infinite feature race is not sustainable. Of course it would be great to see them making feature-rich and overpowered Bubble-Era cars again. But the Bubble-Era is gone.

You are right on the whole German marketing BS. I don't intend to insult any German out there, but the country spent the entire cold war era trying to sell this idea of "superior German engineering" to the world and succeeded massively. What is the greatest technology the automotive industry has ever witnessed in the past two decades? Hybrid drive. It's incredible how badly Toyota failed with their marketing with hybrids (of course, it's their own fault for making hybrids the worst cars to drive). And now the Germans are trying to convince the world their souped-up start-and-stop is the next biggest revolution in the auto industry, because apparently they couldn't keep up in the full hybrid game with the Japanese nor in the EV game with the Chinese.

There was a time when Japanese manufacturers put every tech gimmick out there even on economy cars. Like adjustable semi-active suspension, CD-ROM Satnav, oscillating AC vents, four wheel steering, the list goes on. And guess what happened? Their automotive industry crashed and burnt. This kind of situation only happens when the economy is healthy. Once another recession hits people will go back to the basics, and the Germans will dial back on their feature race. An infinite feature race is not sustainable. Of course it would be great to see them making feature-rich and overpowered Bubble-Era cars again. But the Bubble-Era is gone.

You are right on the whole German marketing BS. I don't intend to insult any German out there, but the country spent the entire cold war era trying to sell this idea of "superior German engineering" to the world and succeeded massively. What is the greatest technology the automotive industry has ever witnessed in the past two decades? Hybrid drive. It's incredible how badly Toyota failed with their marketing with hybrids (of course, it's their own fault for making hybrids the worst cars to drive). And now the Germans are trying to convince the world their souped-up start-and-stop is the next biggest revolution in the auto industry, because apparently they couldn't keep up in the full hybrid game with the Japanese nor in the EV game with the Chinese.

There was a time when Japanese manufacturers put every tech gimmick out there even on economy cars. Like adjustable semi-active suspension, CD-ROM Satnav, oscillating AC vents, four wheel steering, the list goes on. And guess what happened? Their automotive industry crashed and burnt. This kind of situation only happens when the economy is healthy. Once another recession hits people will go back to the basics, and the Germans will dial back on their feature race. An infinite feature race is not sustainable. Of course it would be great to see them making feature-rich and overpowered Bubble-Era cars again. But the Bubble-Era is gone.

You are right on the whole German marketing BS. I don't intend to insult any German out there, but the country spent the entire cold war era trying to sell this idea of "superior German engineering" to the world and succeeded massively. What is the greatest technology the automotive industry has ever witnessed in the past two decades? Hybrid drive. It's incredible how badly Toyota failed with their marketing with hybrids (of course, it's their own fault for making hybrids the worst cars to drive). And now the Germans are trying to convince the world their souped-up start-and-stop is the next biggest revolution in the auto industry, because apparently they couldn't keep up in the full hybrid game with the Japanese nor in the EV game with the Chinese.

There was a time when Japanese manufacturers put every tech gimmick out there even on economy cars. Like adjustable semi-active suspension, CD-ROM Satnav, oscillating AC vents, four wheel steering, the list goes on. And guess what happened? Their automotive industry crashed and burnt. This kind of situation only happens when the economy is healthy. Once another recession hits people will go back to the basics, and the Germans will dial back on their feature race. An infinite feature race is not sustainable. Of course it would be great to see them making feature-rich and overpowered Bubble-Era cars again. But the Bubble-Era is gone.

You are right on the whole German marketing BS. I don't intend to insult any German out there, but the country spent the entire cold war era trying to sell this idea of "superior German engineering" to the world and succeeded massively. What is the greatest technology the automotive industry has ever witnessed in the past two decades? Hybrid drive. It's incredible how badly Toyota failed with their marketing with hybrids (of course, it's their own fault for making hybrids the worst cars to drive). And now the Germans are trying to convince the world their souped-up start-and-stop is the next biggest revolution in the auto industry, because apparently they couldn't keep up in the full hybrid game with the Japanese nor in the EV game with the Chinese.

I want to clarify that 'gimmick' as used in media (and me too) is an unfair term to use for any technology. It is a derogatory way of describing a feature one does not want/need/think useful. But what one wants/needs/thinks useful differs among each of us, so every feature will get a subjective judgement. Media uses the term gimmick to pass their subjective opinion as an objective fact.

I want to clarify that 'gimmick' as used in media (and me too) is an unfair term to use for any technology. It is a derogatory way of describing a feature one does not want/need/think useful. But what one wants/needs/thinks useful differs among each of us, so every feature will get a subjective judgement. Media uses the term gimmick to pass their subjective opinion as an objective fact.

I want to clarify that 'gimmick' as used in media (and me too) is an unfair term to use for any technology. It is a derogatory way of describing a feature one does not want/need/think useful. But what one wants/needs/thinks useful differs among each of us, so every feature will get a subjective judgement. Media uses the term gimmick to pass their subjective opinion as an objective fact.

I want to clarify that 'gimmick' as used in media (and me too) is an unfair term to use for any technology. It is a derogatory way of describing a feature one does not want/need/think useful. But what one wants/needs/thinks useful differs among each of us, so every feature will get a subjective judgement. Media uses the term gimmick to pass their subjective opinion as an objective fact.

Lexus Kentucky Plant Readies for 2019 ES 350 Production

Production set to begin late summer.

View the original article post

Lexus Kentucky Plant Readies for 2019 ES 350 Production

Production set to begin late summer.

View the original article post

Lexus Kentucky Plant Readies for 2019 ES 350 Production

Production set to begin late summer.

View the original article post

Lexus Kentucky Plant Readies for 2019 ES 350 Production

Production set to begin late summer.

View the original article post

Can’t wait to see this in the flesh .

Can’t wait to see this in the flesh .

Can’t wait to see this in the flesh .

Can’t wait to see this in the flesh .

ssun30

It's incredible how badly Toyota failed with their marketing with hybrids (of course, it's their own fault for making hybrids the worst cars to drive). And now the Germans are trying to convince the world their souped-up start-and-stop is the next biggest revolution in the auto industry, because apparently they couldn't keep up in the full hybrid game with the Japanese nor in the EV game with the Chinese.

Heh, I dont thinkt hey failed did they? I mean they sell 1.5m per year, and soon to be 2m. While all of the germans combined likely sell 10x less.
But sure, perception in some media is that hybrids suck and bad plugins rule, however in reality, it is obviously that the buyers of those cars do not read the press! :)

Case in point, downfall in diesel sales in Europe, despite ALL of the automotive media telling us diesels are awesome and it is just an missunderstanding, and how hybrids drive poorly, in reality diesel share in Europe went down from 55% to 38% in single year, which is biggest retraction in technology ever since Nokia failed... and next year I am pretty sure that diesel marketshare in Europe is going below 30%, something that none of the analysts ever predicted.

So I do wonder how much is media actually able to change perceptives lately, it seems that personal experience still rules in the customer, which can be seen by rapidly increasing hybrid sales by Toyota in Europe.

ssun30

It's incredible how badly Toyota failed with their marketing with hybrids (of course, it's their own fault for making hybrids the worst cars to drive). And now the Germans are trying to convince the world their souped-up start-and-stop is the next biggest revolution in the auto industry, because apparently they couldn't keep up in the full hybrid game with the Japanese nor in the EV game with the Chinese.

Heh, I dont thinkt hey failed did they? I mean they sell 1.5m per year, and soon to be 2m. While all of the germans combined likely sell 10x less.
But sure, perception in some media is that hybrids suck and bad plugins rule, however in reality, it is obviously that the buyers of those cars do not read the press! :)

Case in point, downfall in diesel sales in Europe, despite ALL of the automotive media telling us diesels are awesome and it is just an missunderstanding, and how hybrids drive poorly, in reality diesel share in Europe went down from 55% to 38% in single year, which is biggest retraction in technology ever since Nokia failed... and next year I am pretty sure that diesel marketshare in Europe is going below 30%, something that none of the analysts ever predicted.

So I do wonder how much is media actually able to change perceptives lately, it seems that personal experience still rules in the customer, which can be seen by rapidly increasing hybrid sales by Toyota in Europe.

ssun30

It's incredible how badly Toyota failed with their marketing with hybrids (of course, it's their own fault for making hybrids the worst cars to drive). And now the Germans are trying to convince the world their souped-up start-and-stop is the next biggest revolution in the auto industry, because apparently they couldn't keep up in the full hybrid game with the Japanese nor in the EV game with the Chinese.

Heh, I dont thinkt hey failed did they? I mean they sell 1.5m per year, and soon to be 2m. While all of the germans combined likely sell 10x less.
But sure, perception in some media is that hybrids suck and bad plugins rule, however in reality, it is obviously that the buyers of those cars do not read the press! :)

Case in point, downfall in diesel sales in Europe, despite ALL of the automotive media telling us diesels are awesome and it is just an missunderstanding, and how hybrids drive poorly, in reality diesel share in Europe went down from 55% to 38% in single year, which is biggest retraction in technology ever since Nokia failed... and next year I am pretty sure that diesel marketshare in Europe is going below 30%, something that none of the analysts ever predicted.

So I do wonder how much is media actually able to change perceptives lately, it seems that personal experience still rules in the customer, which can be seen by rapidly increasing hybrid sales by Toyota in Europe.