Videos: The 2019 Lexus ES & ES F SPORT

I know this isn't adding much, but I would just like to say I never believed the GS was going to get totally cancelled. The many heated discussions over the GS being cancelled that have happened here (which has never been confirmed at all) remind me of the rumor that appeared during 4GS development that many people believed (and some still do). The famous rumor years ago that during 4GS development, Akio Toyoda wanted to cancel the GS completely. This was never fully substantiated, and even Akio Toyoda himself in an obscure interview confirmed it was never his intention. He only implied to the development team of the 4GS he considered cancelling it because initial 4GS efforts left him disappointed. That implication lit a symbolic fire under the development team, and the result was the 4GS that we actually got to market, with its class-leading chassis and excellent interior.

Throughout Toyota Motor Company's history, cancelling a model line completely has always been extremely rare. Let's look on the Lexus side. The SC was never completely cancelled. It reappeared as the 2nd gen SC, and more recently it has "reappeared" in a reimagined way as the LC. Let's be honest, the LC is the spiritual successor to the SC. The CT was never truly cancelled, as it lives on in other overseas markets. The HS is the only model that one can argue was truly cancelled. Yet on the other hand, it is also arguable that the CT is extremely similar to the HS, and that the HS possibly lives on through the CT.

This new ES is great as an ES. Love the rear seat details, the wood and leather steering wheel, and the different color options. Also did anyone else catch the Shimomoku and bamboo wood available as options? Love that some LS options have now appeared on the ES. The F-Sport interior in all black looks really bland, I agree. Also really like the exterior. I eagerly await further details in a full press release. Not surprised no new V6, looks like the TNGA workhorse V6 engine isn't ready yet. It will debut somewhere soon enough, just not now. Likely on a mid-cycle refresh, or simply some new generation. I don't get some of the criticism of the details of the car. If you're expecting an LS for ES money, that's absolutely impossible. If you expect an LS, well that already exists. For ES money though, this new ES is really excellent.

As for the GS, what will I think will happen personally with the 5GS? I think it will go on hiatus, and then reappear as a further upmarket '4-door coupe' type sedan. I think it's likely the GS will lose its traditional shape. The 3GS hinted at a '4-door coupe' look, but that model was too small, impractical, and the styling didn't fully work. If they grow the GS from 4GS size, they can make a very elegant, very unique high-end midsize prestige sedan.

I think in GS context 'cancel' meant no imminent direct replacement, no prototype spyshots. If Lexus wants to remain what it is, no one on here doubts the possibility of it returning, like the LC, but just not today, unless Lexus pulls out Acura and Infiniti strategy, which would be dumb.

bogglo

With all that been said, I think currently Toyota has a better Idea of what they are aiming for in their Line up. The new corolla and Rav 4 is a testament to this.
As for Lexus IMO everything released this Year is just a placeholder. Lets put something new out there for now to keep the cash flowing in while figure out all this mess. Lets start from the RXL (why not wait for the RX redesign to build a proper RXL from scratch?) LX 2 row (Lets make more money flow in. GX owner can upgrade also) LS (even though it's new we can all agree there is something incomplete about it. Be it legroom, car play, engine name it. I still feel like there is a V8 somewhere for the LS and I hope is not just for an LSF). I actually like the new ES for what it is and not as GS replacement.

So IMO 2020 is the year to be on the lookout for when talking about significant expectation from Lexus (Tokyo 2020)

There is no place holders, this is what we get.

I am not sure what exactly do you expect in 2020 Tokyo - 2.5 years from now? LS and LC will still be the same, just with Car Play... Maybe IS?

spwolf

There is no place holders, this is what we get.

I am not sure what exactly do you expect in 2020 Tokyo - 2.5 years from now? LS and LC will still be the same, just with Car Play... Maybe IS?

No LF-1 before 2020?

Levi

No LF-1 before 2020?

Sure, and RX, NX, CT? All of that before Tokyo 2020, so not sure what's left for after that.

I am giving credit to @franklexus, @t ClubLexus for posting this comparison:

LS


ES

krew

Lexus ES F SPORT Aimed at Younger Audience

Driving down the average age.

View the original article post

Levi

No LF-1 before 2020?

Don't under estimate Lexus. Like I said it's my opinion. The 3GS upgrade to 3.5 engine between 2006 and 2007 that was even without a refresh or redesign also 2007 and 2008 430 to 460 change, the GX 2 row is another hint of how unpredictable they can be. The LS debuted with a TTV6 that most of us wasn't expecting especially after the LC lunch with V8. The most painful part of been a Lexus/Toyota enthusiast is they really don't let us know what is in works until maybe it's 90% done so all we can do is speculate or go with the rumors.

“In other brands you have to go to a higher price point to get that much room,” Ericksen says, pointing out the ES now offers more legroom than the larger LS sedan. “We have every indication we are going to continue to have a great conquest vehicle on our hands.”

This is coming from the recent article, Lexus ES F Sport Aimed at Younger Audience. Why are they advertising this? Do they really want to consumers to steer away from the LS? I don't know about the rest of you but Lexus marketing is taking a turn for the worse. If I was an LS owner, I don't want to see that my flagship vehicle has less rear leg room than the entry level luxury car that cost about 20-30k less. The ES has grown every generation and it's pretty damn scary. It doesn't feel like a midsize car.

Also, me being in the younger audience crowd that they are targeting to, I don't consider the ES F Sport on my list of vehicles to look at. It'll probably be the last vehicle I look at. I rather look at the new Corolla Hatchback over the ES. Nothing about the new ES is inspiring. I look at the rear quarter view and I see a lot of Camry influence. I see the front end; a lot of LS influence. I see the interior, a mix bag of previous generation RX mashed up with the LS interior. The rear end looks like the Sonata. I want something unique, which is why I have an IS F Sport.

I'm sorry Lexus but what's your target audience for the ES F-Sport. Mid-40s?

emptystreets130

This is coming from the recent article, Lexus ES F Sport Aimed at Younger Audience. Why are they advertising this? Do they really want to consumers to steer away from the LS? I don't know about the rest of you but Lexus marketing is taking a turn for the worse. If I was an LS owner, I don't want to see that my flagship vehicle has less rear leg room than the entry level luxury car that cost about 20-30k less. The ES has grown every generation and it's pretty damn scary. It doesn't feel like a midsize car.

Also, me being in the younger audience crowd that they are targeting to, I don't consider the ES F Sport on my list of vehicles to look at. It'll probably be the last vehicle I look at. I rather look at the new Corolla Hatchback over the ES. Nothing about the new ES is inspiring. I look at the rear quarter view and I see a lot of Camry influence. I see the front end; a lot of LS influence. I see the interior, a mix bag of previous generation RX mashed up with the LS interior. The rear end looks like the Sonata. I want something unique, which is why I have an IS F Sport.

I'm sorry Lexus but what's your target audience for the ES F-Sport. Mid-40s?

So if you think ES is uninspiring vehicle, why do you think it competes with LS then at all? It does not.
Reasons that make LS cool are not there in ES.

For people buying cars per yard, ES is great value.

As to the F-Sport, It is certainly targeted to less than 67 crowd, but not much less... ES is by far the most conservative Lexus, and this is on purpose.
Then they can go crazy with cars like UX.

spwolf

So if you think ES is uninspiring vehicle, why do you think it competes with LS then at all? It does not.
Reasons that make LS cool are not there in ES.

For people buying cars per yard, ES is great value.

As to the F-Sport, It is certainly targeted to less than 67 crowd, but not much less... ES is by far the most conservative Lexus, and this is on purpose.
Then they can go crazy with cars like UX.

I'm not saying it competes with the LS. I'm saying why get the LS if the ES will be bigger than the LS, and cheaper than the LS, with roughly the same power as the LS500h. Reading through the clublexus forums, not a lot of LS owners are happy with the ES.

If they want to buy a car per yard, the Avalon is a better value.

emptystreets130

I'm not saying it competes with the LS. I'm saying why get the LS if the ES will be bigger than the LS, and cheaper than the LS, with roughly the same power as the LS500h. Reading through the clublexus forums, not a lot of LS owners are happy with the ES.

If they want to buy a car per yard, the Avalon is a better value.

if you read CL, then you know nobody there likes LS at all, and nobody is going to buy one... it is shifting demographics, they moved LS to be aspirational vehicle while ES is large affordable luxury sedan.

Just few posts above you have example while LS has less rear legroom, it is not a vehicle done by the numbers, unlike ES and RX for instance.

ES has roughly the power of S450 and similar 7 series and A8 too. So I guess it is same argument?
It is also more powerful than base engined 5/A6/E class that cost $10k more.

So by those arguments, there is no reason for S, 7, A8, etc to exist either.

emptystreets130

I'm not saying it competes with the LS. I'm saying why get the LS if the ES will be bigger than the LS, and cheaper than the LS, with roughly the same power as the LS500h. Reading through the clublexus forums, not a lot of LS owners are happy with the ES.

If they want to buy a car per yard, the Avalon is a better value.

Having bigger leg room doesn't mean it's bigger than the LS, the LS's rear seats still by far more comfortable and nicer place to be in - the shoulders area in the LS is certainly bigger-

For the power, the LS500h is by far more powerful than ES300h, the materials inside the LS are coming truly from different world, so far from what you will get with the ES

There is no comparison at all, the leg room isn't everything.

emptystreets130

I'm sorry Lexus but what's your target audience for the ES F-Sport. Mid-40s?

Yes. Younger is relative to current ES owners.

The 20-30 crowd will get the IS/UX/NX instead.

Guys, I don't know how to say this but the ES vs LS talk is just not reality. No one that buys a LS seriously considers a ES it could have 50 more inches of leg room. People that want a LS want a LS or S class etc. If Legroom mattered that much they would buy a Avalon and save 60 grand.

I am not talking about the .000001% person who does. The price points and cars are completely different and it won't matter what the ES offers it won't hurt the LS.

mikeavelli

Guys, I don't know how to say this but the ES vs LS talk is just not reality. No one that buys a LS seriously considers a ES it could have 50 more inches of leg room. People that want a LS want a LS or S class etc. If Legroom mattered that much they would buy a Avalon and save 60 grand.

I am not talking about the .000001% person who does. The price points and cars are completely different and it won't matter what the ES offers it won't hurt the LS.

I don't understand how a technical question evolved into a ES vs LS nonsense. They are clearly not comparable cars. I was only asking how the ES has more legroom.

Was chatting about various models with my salesman this morning while my LS500 was detailed for delivery and he said that Lexus has promised dealers an AWD version of the 7ES, but they don't have a firm date yet other than "not this year".

ssun30

I don't understand how a technical question evolved into a ES vs LS nonsense. They are clearly not comparable cars. I was only asking how the ES has more legroom.

This is not in response to your tech question, but @emptystreets130 's post:

emptystreets130

This is coming from the recent article, Lexus ES F Sport Aimed at Younger Audience. Why are they advertising this? Do they really want to consumers to steer away from the LS? I don't know about the rest of you but Lexus marketing is taking a turn for the worse. If I was an LS owner, I don't want to see that my flagship vehicle has less rear leg room than the entry level luxury car that cost about 20-30k less. The ES has grown every generation and it's pretty damn scary. It doesn't feel like a midsize car.

Ian Schmidt

Was chatting about various models with my salesman this morning while my LS500 was detailed for delivery

Nicely done!

Does Lexus/Toyota have any AWD hybrid sedan? I know the last LS600h was. But any other? I was quite interested in the CH-R, but it only available as FWD HEV or AWD ICE.

Madi

Look at 1:48 in the following video, is that a rear seat back adjuster?

yeah thats cool, I also see that the ES will have heads-up display.

Levi

Does Lexus/Toyota have any AWD hybrid sedan? I know the last LS600h was. But any other? I was quite interested in the CH-R, but it only available as FWD HEV or AWD ICE.

UX250h is coming with AWD, i think same powertrain will soon come to CHR as well, maybe even later this year.

I think some Japanese RWD hybrid Toyota's had e-awd system, based on 300h powertrain + front electric motors.

Levi

Does Lexus/Toyota have any AWD hybrid sedan? I know the last LS600h was. But any other? I was quite interested in the CH-R, but it only available as FWD HEV or AWD ICE.

I guess you mean any non-SUV AWD vehicle ?

Yes, the new prius is a hatchback and it has E-Four system in Japan and many other markets, so if there is any possibility for the ES to come with an AWD system, I think the ES300h is the only one which may get it not the ES350 or any gasoline model.

This one?

This one is a RWD platform, and its AWD is Full-Time AWD, basically RWD

I guess he asked about non-SUV transverse mounted engines with AWD :)

Madi

This one is a RWD platform, and its AWD is Full-Time AWD, basically RWD

I guess he asked about non-SUV transverse mounted engines with AWD :)

they dont seem to sell them outside Japan and few countries around it? Prius and Crown or whatever else had that 300h powertrain with RWD and e-awd

spwolf

UX250h is coming with AWD, i think same powertrain will soon come to CHR as well, maybe even later this year.

I think some Japanese RWD hybrid Toyota's had e-awd system, based on 300h powertrain + front electric motors.

The Crown Hybrid 4WD uses a conventional transaxle after the hybrid system output shaft and is a full-time AWD system. To me it's something they should do on next-gen high power (>150kW) transverse hybrids like the Highlander and RX. E-Four is just way too much effort for very little gain.

ssun30

The Crown Hybrid 4WD uses a conventional transaxle after the hybrid system output shaft and is a full-time AWD system. To me it's something they should do on next-gen high power (>150kW) transverse hybrids like the Highlander and RX. E-Four is just way too much effort for very little gain.

Did they change the layout of the Crown engine ?



As I know the Crown has longitudinal mounted engine, and its Hybrid is basically the same as of the GS or LS

Its a RWD mid-size vehicle, or as I call it re-skinned GS o_O

ssun30

The Crown Hybrid 4WD uses a conventional transaxle after the hybrid system output shaft and is a full-time AWD system. To me it's something they should do on next-gen high power (>150kW) transverse hybrids like the Highlander and RX. E-Four is just way too much effort for very little gain.

well it is certainly only way to make it right, but i thought it is much heavier than e-four? Also it would ruin MPG, so it does depend on the vehicle I guess.

Madi

Did they change the layout of the Crown engine ?

No it's still longitudinal. If you don't read Japanese you can tell from the direction of the arrows. Also, the GS is a re-skinned Crown not the other way around.

spwolf

well it is certainly only way to make it right, but i thought it is much heavier than e-four? Also it would ruin MPG, so it does depend on the vehicle I guess.

Current E-Four does not save weight; it was lighter in theory but haven't materialized yet. Maybe with TNGA updates it can reach parity with traditional systems. Yes E-Four will have some MPG advantage since it's part-time, but it will be carrying a lot of dead weight as well. If they connect the hybrid system to DTV-AWD it will achieve the same goal while still leaving the possibility of locking the vehicle in AWD mode.

Thanks for all the replies. I have done some research and can now myself answer to my own question. It gets harder to find technical information in our times, because what sells are not technical specifications, but marketing jargon. Anyway, I'll leave TMC terminology aside, because it is confusing and I'll call everything as it is.

TMC has basically two AWD systems for ICE versions:
On-Demand AWD: front transverse engine with mechanical linkage to all wheels (F4-T)
Part/Full-Time AWD: front longitudinal engine with mechanical linkage to all wheels (F4-L)

TMC also has two AWD systems for HEV versions:
For FF-T layout: unlike the ICE versions, AWD HEVs have no mechanical linkage to rear wheels. Rear wheels are powered by an electric motor, in addition to the front electric motor. So AWD HEV with FF-T layout, just has an additional motor at the rear axle, compared to FWD HEV.
For FR-L layout: is uses the mechanical components of F4-L versions. It is just adds the electric motor between the engine and the transmission. So on an FR-L you 'add' AWD (transfer case with front diff) , HEV (electric motor between engine and transmission), or both.

So to answer to my question: There are no TMC cars or sedans (with exception of the Prius that @Madi mentioned) with FF-T layout that use the AWD system of HEV CUVs/SUVs. But technically they could, and it is likely the ES will get it. It will also be a 'first' for TMC. However, (P)HEV versions of FF-T layout will never have any mechanical linkage to rear wheels. This is noticeable in the whole industry, recently announced by Infiniti, and quite probably also the future of Audi and Subaru even with FF-L layout.

But there are indeed TMC cars or sedans with FR-L layout that are HEV and have AWD. The first car of this kind was the LS 600h. Technically every Lexus (or Toyota) HEV that has an FR-L layout could have AWD. And it is indeed true that there are the IS 300h, is available, not only as RWD, but also as AWD in some markets. What is interesting, is that the Toyota Crown that is related to the Lexus GS, has an AWD version of the 4 cylinder hybrid, but the GS does not. A GS450h AWD could have been a technical possibility, but there was probably no business case for it.


Regarding TMCs 'new' AWD systems, there is nothing really new. The 'novelty', regardless if mechanical or electric power, is torque management, known as torque vectoring. But there are not enough details to know what type of torque vectoring. For reminder of the types of diffs:

• no torque distribution control (open/locked diff)
  
• passive torque distribution control (mechanical differential)
• passive torque distribution control (passive braking)
  
• braking control (active braking)
• torque vectoring control (active differential)