Lexus ES: Sixth GenerationLexus LS: Fourth Generation

Comparing the New Lexus ES & Lexus LS Sedans

Lexus ES vs Lexus LS Comparison

The next-generation Lexus ES has been revealed, and the similarities with the exterior design of the LS flagship are undeniable — let’s put them side-by-side for a comparison:

Lexus ES vs Lexus LS Front

Lexus ES vs Lexus LS Side

There are so many shared design cues that pointing out the differences turns into a game of its own — the headlights, the grille pattern, the lack of a chrome samurai blade along the bottom of the doors.

Overall, the ES is softer in its curves and less articulated in its angles, but this should be expected and even preferred. After all, the LS is the Lexus sedan flagship and can’t give away all its secrets.

(Special thanks to RAL on the forums for this post idea!)

Comments
amoschen7
I wish there will be a 2.5T version announced later. This will reduce compound tax rate by 30% in China, or about $10K, the reason why Lexus killed GS 350 IS 350 RX350 and ES 350 in China.
This. A 2.5T could be in the high ¥400k and be super competitive since its competitors only have base 2.0T engines (E200L/A6 40TFSI/520Li) at that price point.
I hope they do both 2.0t and 2.5t... as 2.0t is even more important world wide.
Avalon full info announced... 215 HP from hybrid and 44 MPG combined for XLE, 43 MPG for XSE.

  • Designed and Assembled in the U.S.A., Five Generations Strong
  • New V6 and Toyota Hybrid System Powertrains Offering More Power and MPG
  • New TNGA K Sedan Platform with Multi-Link Rear Suspension and Available Toyota-First Adaptive Variable Suspension (AVS)
  • Standard Entune 3.0 with Wi-Fi Connect, Toyota Remote Connect with Smartwatch and Amazon Alexa Connectivity, and Apple CarPlay Compatibility
  • Standard Toyota Safety Sense P (TSS-P)
  • Starting MSRP of $35,500 for XLE V6
  • On Sale in May 2018
They managed not to increase the price despite all the new stuff... also hybrid premium now $1k instead of $1.5k.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/release...ortless+sophistication+style+exhilaration.htm
Some shots from Chinese websites :













I absolutely hate that wheel, but am excited to see this thing for real!
spwolf
I hope they do both 2.0t and 2.5t... as 2.0t is even more important world wide.
The ES200 (with no turbo) is already available just for the Russian, Chinese and Taiwanese markets today and constitute the majority of the ES sales in those regions, so chances are Lexus will continue to offer the ES200 there. An ES200t/300 will do much less well there because most luxury car buyers there buy luxury cars for status, appearance and comfort but not performance. Paying extra for a turbo is unnecessary for them.
ydooby
The ES200 (with no turbo) is already available just for the Russian, Chinese and Taiwanese markets today and constitute the majority of the ES sales in those regions, so chances are Lexus will continue to offer the ES200 there. An ES200t/300 will do much less well there because most luxury car buyers there buy luxury cars for status, appearance and comfort but not performance. Paying extra for a turbo is unnecessary for them.
indeed... I still want that 2.0t for those markets, especially since it is all new car. 2.0t is for tax reasons and they already have things like RX 2.0t
Dang those pics got taken down...?
p.s. V6 will be only in North America. So I think they should offer something stronger, and I am sure some kind of stronger engine is coming. Hybrid is only crucial in Western Europe where it will be 90% of the sale.... then Japan it will be like 50% of sales... rest of the market could be NA and China where it gets 15%-25%.
spwolf
Avalon full info announced... 215 HP from hybrid and 44 MPG combined for XLE, 43 MPG for XSE.



They managed not to increase the price despite all the new stuff... also hybrid premium now $1k instead of $1.5k.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/release...ortless+sophistication+style+exhilaration.htm
That is just INCREDIBLE!
spwolf
indeed... I still want that 2.0t for those markets, especially since it is all new car. 2.0t is for tax reasons and they already have things like RX 2.0t
I feel it’s more likely that they put the 2.5 NA as the most desired model. It is already proved in the market that 2.5NA Camry is more popular than 2.0NA in China. If 2.5 NA is there for sure, a 2.0T model could be in an embarrassing position compared with 2.5T
amoschen7
I feel it’s more likely that they put the 2.5 NA as the most desired model. It is already proved in the market that 2.5NA Camry is more popular than 2.0NA in China. If 2.5 NA is there for sure, a 2.0T model could be in an embarrassing position compared with 2.5T
if 2.5t exists, sure... why would it be embarrassing though?

They will certainly have 2.0l, 2.5l and 300h models, as before.
ydooby
The ES200 (with no turbo) is already available just for the Russian, Chinese and Taiwanese markets today and constitute the majority of the ES sales in those regions, so chances are Lexus will continue to offer the ES200 there. An ES200t/300 will do much less well there because most luxury car buyers there buy luxury cars for status, appearance and comfort but not performance. Paying extra for a turbo is unnecessary for them.
The ES200 is the biggest seller because it is the cheapest Lexus badge money can buy, but it is not a good profit driver (in fact it is very low margin and not liked by dealers). The ES200 is not targeted towards the "luxury car buyer" to be fair. The point of more powerful models is not power itself but a justification to charge more. More luxurious packages are still reserved for higher tier trims.

The chinese market has a weird obsession for "2.0T" because of VW's very aggressive and misleading market campaign about its 2.0TFSI engines. People believe "2.0T" is some magic potion that turns their car into both powerful and fuel-sipping machines. Dropping a 2.0T engine into the Crown alone was enough to double the sales for that dying model in 2017, and now FAW has some second thoughts about discontinuing the Crown.

On the other hand, the new 300h could work much better than a 200t. The FAW Crown didn't have a hybrid so the analogy couldn't really be applied here.
One thing I hope Lexus will soon understand is the media impact of an "all-in" comprehensive model debut that all takes place at once. Historically, we get the debut of a "core" model, then at a later auto show we get the hybrid, and then after that, the F-Sport. If we're lucky, at some point down the line we get the F model. It ends up taking 6 months to fully reveal the same car through teaser shots and then when the various trims roll out onto the show table, it's 90% the same car we've seen already and nobody really cares anymore. The moment has passed.

I understand that by doing this, Lexus is trying to maintain momentum over an extended period, but this is the wrong approach considering how the media reacts to these sorts of staggered reveals. Why? The most significant press coverage will take place at the initial reveal - thats when media, industry folks and enthusiasts go "all-in" and form their first impressions, write the most coverage and take the most photos. Whatever happens after that is an afterthought, even if it's a staggered reveal of something like F-Sport variant that enthusiasts would like.

Showing all powertrain options (gas, hybrid, BEV) and all trim options (base, luxury, F-Sport) and all drivetrain options (AWD, RWD, FWD) all at once creates a sense for media that Lexus is debuting a fully fleshed out model line. Quite simply, it is much more impressive. The one I agree with is the later debut of the F model. Mercedes does a great job of showing many models and trims at their reveals which gives the impression that this is a strong, robust model line with "something for everyone."

With all of that said, I am expecting that tomorrow's headlines will read something to the effect of "Front wheel drive, four cylinder Lexus ES debuts in Beijing." That's oversimplified, but you get what I mean. If we somehow get the debut of hybrid engine, 4cylinder engines, V6, F Sport, AWD and luxury model all at once, the press coverage for this car will end up being something like, "Lexus elevates the ES to take on Mercedes, Audi and BMW." Much stronger, much more positive, much more impressive for media, industry and consumers alike.

Lexus has been very bad about this for a very long time, but perhaps with so many new products coming out this year, they won't have time to stretch out full reveals because they'll need the spotlight for other individual models. They did well with UX, so maybe they'll surprise me tomorrow.
spwolf
if 2.5t exists, sure... why would it be embarrassing though?
Because the 250 and 300h will already be very competitive in the ¥350-500k where most of the profit lies. They don't have to do a 2.0T because it wouldn't add anything new. BBA only have their intro-level models in this segment (E200L/520Li/A6L 40TFSI).

On the other hand, a 2.5T will compete in a completely different segment (¥500k+) against V6s with 4-seater executive trims. I do hope a 4-seater ES is on their radar.

In either case, they don't have to do a 2.0T if it needs to be a standalone thing.
Gecko
One thing I hope Lexus will soon understand is the media impact of an "all-in" comprehensive model debut that all takes place at once. Historically, we get the debut of a "core" model, then at a later auto show we get the hybrid, and then after that, the F-Sport. If we're lucky, at some point down the line we get the F model. It ends up taking 6 months to fully reveal the same car through teaser shots and then when the various trims roll out onto the show table, it's 90% the same car we've seen already and nobody really cares anymore. The moment has passed.
Everyone in the industry introduce their full line-up in a gradual manner. It's not like Mercedes launch AMGs on Day 1. It's simply because they couldn't have everything ready at the same time and having the product out is much higher priority. It's not like they can do paper launch like Tesla does, it's just not a very "auto industry way" of doing things.

The ES could need a better approach, since it is effectively a reboot of their mid-size sedan strategy. I do agree they need to show more commitment to GS replacement. Then again, preparing an all-in launch just means further slips. Right now they cannot really afford to delay any product.
ssun30
Everyone in the industry introduce their full line-up in a gradual manner. It's not like Mercedes launch AMGs on Day 1. It's simply because they couldn't have everything ready at the same time and having the product out is much higher priority. It's not like they can do paper launch like Tesla does, it's just not a very "auto industry way" of doing things.
Short of high performance models (AMG, M, RS), everyone does this much better than Lexus by showing critical mass all at once. Gas, hybrid, electric, sports, luxury, exec trims, at one launch with hi-po models and smaller package info coming closer to launch or after the fact.

Here is one such example, from Beijing no less:

With less than 12 hours to go let's hold off on speculations for now. IIRC the press event is at 9AM (GMT+8) tomorrow but couldn't find the source.

I will be in Beijing on the 29th and the ES will be the first for me to check out. Hope they also debut the UX there as well.
ssun30
With less than 12 hours to go let's hold off on speculations for now. IIRC the press event is at 9AM (GMT+8) tomorrow but couldn't find the source.

I will be in Beijing on the 29th and the ES will be the first for me to check out. Hope they also debut the UX there as well.
This is a dumb question, but what time is the local reveal? I can't find it and want to know when and were to tune in!
Besides lower pricing, ride comfort and interior space and now newer technology, why do people opt for the ES over the IS?
internalaudit
Besides lower pricing, ride comfort and interior space and now newer technology, why do people opt for the ES over the IS?
This question feels like a trick.
krew
This question feels like a trick.
No, I'm weird but if both had AWD, I would cross shop the two vehicles since they're the cheapest Lexus offerings.
internalaudit
Besides lower pricing, ride comfort and interior space and now newer technology, why do people opt for the ES over the IS?
Apples to Oranges in their current form. Their size is nothing similar, they drive nothing similar and interior options are different as well.

If the ES is replacing the GS, that means its price will go up and I fully expect more luxury and features.

The fact of the matter is in a dying sedan world, Lexus has 3 Sedans where most have two (lets not forget the HS was here just a few years ago, Lexus had 4 sedans that could be had in the 40k range).
mikeavelli
Apples to Oranges in their current form. Their size is nothing similar, they drive nothing similar and interior options are different as well.

If the ES is replacing the GS, that means its price will go up and I fully expect more luxury and features.

The fact of the matter is in a dying sedan world, Lexus has 3 Sedans where most have two (lets not forget the HS was here just a few years ago, Lexus had 4 sedans that could be had in the 40k range).
So RWD vs FWD biased makes a world of difference even on a full-time AWD system? All I care about is all time AWD and the equivalent of Toyota Safety Sense.

It's almost like Toyota North America is not bringing in AWD just so people have to move up to Lexus.
internalaudit
So RWD vs FWD biased makes a world of difference even on a full-time AWD system? All I care about is all time AWD and the equivalent of Toyota Safety Sense.

It's almost like Toyota North America is not bringing in AWD just so people have to move up to Lexus.
It seems with the new systems they don't make much of a difference and in the new M5/E63 S you can actually disengage AWD completely (you still have the weight penalty). I doubt most AWD ES owners would care, maybe a few GS owners though.

We will see shortly if AWD is confirmed on the new ES.
internalaudit
So RWD vs FWD biased makes a world of difference even on a full-time AWD system? All I care about is all time AWD and the equivalent of Toyota Safety Sense.

It's almost like Toyota North America is not bringing in AWD just so people have to move up to Lexus.
With a full-time AWD system that actively splits power front and rear... FWD or RWD bias wouldn't make much difference. However, in systems like DTC AWD or the newer Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD, they are FWD systems that require a loss of traction or wheel slippage before engaging. In execution, this means the car drives and feels like FWD because it is... until the rear wheels are engaged. That makes a big difference.
Looks like even the DTC AWD is good enough if the ECU can really detect acceleration and be quick to transfer power to the rear wheels. Of course, with slippage and cornering, there will be maybe milliseconds of delay. Going to have to read on the Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD but it should even be good enough if I value reliability/TOC > sharp handling but so far TNGA and the Lexus equivalent seem to have improved driving dynamics if only for the lower CG and more structural rigidity.



I don't think any Lexus vehicle besides those with 4WD have full-time AWD.
internalaudit
Looks like even the DTC AWD is good enough if the ECU can really detect acceleration and be quick to transfer power to the rear wheels. Of course, with slippage and cornering, there will be maybe milliseconds of delay. Going to have to read on the Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD but it should even be good enough if I value reliability/TOC > sharp handling but so far TNGA and the Lexus equivalent seem to have improved driving dynamics if only for the lower CG and more structural rigidity.



I don't think any Lexus vehicle besides those with 4WD have full-time AWD.
What is your goal - traction for bad weather or more grip for performance driving?

DTC AWD and DTV AWD will both be great for bad weather. Years ago when we had "snowmageddon" here in Atlanta and all of our roadways froze with ice and slush, my Rav4 AWD was one of the only vehicles that could get anywhere and it was unstoppable - up icey hills, black ice, slush, snow... I was shocked and one of very few people who was able to make it home that night. DTV AWD will only improve upon this performance for capability in low speed situations where there could be a greater loss of traction, or where one wheel on an axle has no traction. DTV AWD should put Toyota/Lexus on par with Audi, Acura and Subaru for the sake of all-weather traction.

However, if you are looking for AWD for performance driving, unfortunately Toyota nor Lexus offer any such system.
Mainly overall traction in wet or slick conditions with better cornering as a bonus. From that video, it seems Toyota's/Lexus already detect quick acceleration and will transfer power to the rear axle. I don't drive that fast anymore.

Which AWD systems are for performance driving, Audi's Quattro and BMW's XDrive, both of which seem to be full-time AWD?
internalaudit
Mainly overall traction in wet or slick conditions with better cornering as a bonus. From that video, it seems Toyota's/Lexus already detect quick acceleration and will transfer power to the rear axle. I don't drive that fast anymore.

Which AWD systems are for performance driving, Audi's Quattro and BMW's XDrive, both of which seem to be full-time AWD?
You will definitely be fine with DTV AWD or eFour AWD, if either is to come to the ES.

Acura's SH-AWD, Subaru's Symmetrical AWD and Audi's Quattro are probably the best performance AWD systems on the market right now. I believe xDrive offers a "torque vectoring by braking" system that can brake lock the wheel that's not receiving traction thereby forcing power to the one that has traction, but not true torque vectoring like SH-AWD and the new DTV AWD. DTC AWD is/was a "torque vectoring by braking" system as well.

True torque vectoring, by definition, requires the ability to actively send power between wheels on the same axle - not just locking one via braking and thereby forcing power to the other. Many manufacturers have moved to the latter system in recent years, but the former is superior.

Example: If you're driving around a corner, true torque vectoring can send more power to the outside wheel to help power the car around the corner in a confident manner... say, 75% to the outside wheel and 25% to the inside wheel on the same axle. "Torque vectoring by braking" can't do this because it has to lock one wheel and then the system forces power to the wheel that has traction. The defining element in true torque vectoring is the active power transfer on the same axle.

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