Lexus ES: Sixth GenerationLexus LS: Fourth Generation

Comparing the New Lexus ES & Lexus LS Sedans

Lexus ES vs Lexus LS Comparison

The next-generation Lexus ES has been revealed, and the similarities with the exterior design of the LS flagship are undeniable — let’s put them side-by-side for a comparison:

Lexus ES vs Lexus LS Front

Lexus ES vs Lexus LS Side

There are so many shared design cues that pointing out the differences turns into a game of its own — the headlights, the grille pattern, the lack of a chrome samurai blade along the bottom of the doors.

Overall, the ES is softer in its curves and less articulated in its angles, but this should be expected and even preferred. After all, the LS is the Lexus sedan flagship and can’t give away all its secrets.

(Special thanks to RAL on the forums for this post idea!)

Comments
F1 Silver Arrows
Dear god what is with those front overhangs?:weary_face: What an absolute mess, it's totally going to ruin the balance of the car.:pensive:
I don't think its nearly as bad as you're blowing it out to be.

You don't see the "overhang" looking at the car from a human eye level perspective. You only see it when the photos are taken directly from the side from a toddler's point of view.

Thats why people always hate on cars when they see it from the new release photos but when they begin to see it in person, the design begins to "grow" on them.

Its very common.
zeusus
I don't think its nearly as bad as you're blowing it out to be.

You don't see the "overhang" looking at the car from a human eye level perspective. You only see it when the photos are taken directly from the side from a toddler's point of view.

Thats why people always hate on cars when they see it from the new release photos but when they begin to see it in person, the design begins to "grow" on them.

Its very common.
I agree with your statement. However I can tell the difference between a hideously long overhang to something a lot more manageable. Its sister car, the Avalon, has much shorter overhangs. The Camry too, has massive overhangs, you can see it in commercials too.

I wish they were a lot shorter. It ruins balance for handling, and puts way too much stress on the front wheels. It's not like they will put a V8 or even the Twin-Turbo V6. This is why it's completely pointless to have large overhangs. Also, I am calling it right now, despite everything going to be better with this new ES, there will be many complaints about the stupid torque steer. 300+ horsepower is too much of a burden for those poor front wheels to take, and completely destroys the luxury driving impressions for the ES. Sure, it will become an order of magnitude sportier, but it will come up short in terms of luxury driving feel. The torque steer alone is enough to put off many customers. This is why I keep saying they need to switch to a RWD platform. Hell, even if they don't, a longitudinal FWD platform is much better than the transverse platform we see in the current car.

I am calling it right now, unless they don't put full attention to address this issue, then they're screwed. However on the bright side, there are generally no heavy hitting competitors for the ES, so if they actually release a new GS, they may shift to that car instead, simply because the platform is more superior for a luxury sedan. Or in the case of the new ES, a luxury (sports) sedan.
F1 Silver Arrows
I wish they were a lot shorter. It ruins balance for handling, and puts way too much stress on the front wheels. It's not like they will put a V8 or even the Twin-Turbo V6. This is why it's completely pointless to have large overhangs.
Very true. Such a long overhang is completely unneccesary and beats the primary advantage of a transverse platform: better space efficiency due to compact powertrain. Recent Lexus designs are heavily form over function, which I am not a big fan of. Even the GS has a completely non-longitudinal-RWD-looking overhang.

F1 Silver Arrows
The torque steer alone is enough to put off many customers.
F1 Silver Arrows
I am calling it right now, unless they don't put full attention to address this issue, then they're screwed.
These statements are rather exaggerated. Very few drivers in real world will actually drive the car hard enough to experience that torque steer; traction control and stability control will mostly keep it in check. It's like saying "power oversteer alone is enough to put off many customers" on a longitudinal RWD car.

Will a higher power ES work? We don't really know. But AWD does solve a lot of problems.
ssun30
Very true. Such a long overhang is completely unneccesary and beats the primary advantage of a transverse platform: better space efficiency due to compact powertrain. Recent Lexus designs are heavily form over function, which I am not a big fan of. Even the GS has a completely non-longitudinal-RWD-looking overhang.




These statements are rather exaggerated. Very few drivers in real world will actually drive the car hard enough to experience that torque steer; traction control and stability control will mostly keep it in check. It's like saying "power oversteer alone is enough to put off many customers" on a longitudinal RWD car.

Will a higher power ES work? We don't really know. But AWD does solve a lot of problems.
I wish it was an exaggeration, because these are issues that reviewers and owners alike have reported from the 2018 Camry. I wouldn't waste my time here to spew anything but the truth here to be honest.
M
krew
Comparing the New Lexus ES & Lexus LS Sedans

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View the original article post
You can tell where they had to cut costs on the surfaces. But I don't see the point of releasing two very similar sedans in size and styling, with one twice the price of the other.
Seeing the teaser video gives me a little bit of hope that they will not discontinue the GS. can't see the ES replacing the GS
Seeing the teaser video gives me a little bit of hope that they will not discontinue the GS. can't see the ES replacing the GS
meth.ix
This is a hybrid model, and like with the previous generation ES hybrid, Lexus attempts to make hybrids seem like they have better performance by giviing them a sporty body kit.


the side profile of the current-gen ES looks like an overweight pig when compared with the new model lol...
Haha it so does
ssun30
Very true. Such a long overhang is completely unneccesary and beats the primary advantage of a transverse platform: better space efficiency due to compact powertrain. Recent Lexus designs are heavily form over function, which I am not a big fan of. Even the GS has a completely non-longitudinal-RWD-looking overhang.

These statements are rather exaggerated. Very few drivers in real world will actually drive the car hard enough to experience that torque steer; traction control and stability control will mostly keep it in check. It's like saying "power oversteer alone is enough to put off many customers" on a longitudinal RWD car.

Will a higher power ES work? We don't really know. But AWD does solve a lot of problems.
FWD with long overhang does defeat the purpose of transverse. With most cars being 4 cylinders, the best layout would be longitudinal V4.

About exaggerating, the same could be said for interior "quality". Very few people in the w
It's stunning, now I can't wait to see the ALL-NEW GS >> No one comes and throw that rumor of discontinuing it, as I mentioned before the GS has a new generation on its way, but its not the global mid-size sedan anymore.

And there is no way the ES would come with an AWD system . It will be available only as FWD .

F1 Silver Arrows
I agree with your statement. However I can tell the difference between a hideously long overhang to something a lot more manageable. Its sister car, the Avalon, has much shorter overhangs. The Camry too, has massive overhangs, you even can see it in commercials.

I wish they were a lot shorter. It ruins balance for handling, and puts way too much stress on the front wheels. It's not like they will put a V8 or even the Twin-Turbo V6. This is why it's completely pointless to have large overhangs. Also, I am calling it right now, despite everything going to be better with this new ES, there will be many complaints about the stupid torque steer. 300+ horsepower is too much of a burden for those poor front wheels to take, and completely destroys the luxury driving impressions for the ES. Sure, it will become an order of magnitude sportier, but it will come up short in terms of luxury driving feel. The torque steer alone is enough to put off many customers. This is why I keep saying they need to switch to a RWD platform. Hell, even if they don't, a longitudinal FWD platform is much better than the transverse platform we see in the current car.

I am calling it right now, unless they don't put full attention to address this issue, then they're screwed. However on the bright side, there are generally no heavy hitting competitors for the ES, so if they actually release a new GS, they may shift to that car instead, simply because the platform is more superior for a luxury sedan. Or in the case of the new ES, a luxury (sports) sedan.
From an engineering point of view, it's not impossible to remove the torque steer from a 320 hp car, here is an elaboration on this :



No torque steer at all in the fastest FWD car in the market .
Madi
And there is no way the ES would come with an AWD system . It will be available only as FWD mid-size sedan.
Why are you so convinced of this? Admittedly, you could be right. I just don't see ES becoming a credible GS replacement (especially in Europe) unless it offers an AWD option, though. And even if next week's Beijing 7ES launch is nothing but "regular" and hybrid FWD variants, I'll hold off on the pitchforks for a bit. It's possible that sportier AWD and F-Sport 7ES variants could be saved for a separate event or later launch.
Joaquin Ruhi
Why are you so convinced of this? Admittedly, you could be right. I just don't see ES becoming a credible GS replacement (especially in Europe) unless it offers an AWD option, though. And even if next week's Beijing 7ES launch is nothing but "regular" and hybrid FWD variants, I'll hold off on the pitchforks for a bit. It's possible that sportier AWD and F-Sport 7ES variants could be saved for a separate event or later launch.
Well, heh, lets put it this way - worldwide, Lexus needs ES to be AWD to compete with the germans.

I dont think it is replacement for GS in Europe anyway - very few people bought GS in Europe. But to compete with A6 for instance, they do need AWD. Same goes for Russia, one of their biggest markets as well as Japan - they all like AWD.
F1 Silver Arrows
I agree with your statement. However I can tell the difference between a hideously long overhang to something a lot more manageable. Its sister car, the Avalon, has much shorter overhangs. The Camry too, has massive overhangs, you even can see it in commercials.

I wish they were a lot shorter. It ruins balance for handling, and puts way too much stress on the front wheels. It's not like they will put a V8 or even the Twin-Turbo V6. This is why it's completely pointless to have large overhangs. Also, I am calling it right now, despite everything going to be better with this new ES, there will be many complaints about the stupid torque steer. 300+ horsepower is too much of a burden for those poor front wheels to take, and completely destroys the luxury driving impressions for the ES. Sure, it will become an order of magnitude sportier, but it will come up short in terms of luxury driving feel. The torque steer alone is enough to put off many customers. This is why I keep saying they need to switch to a RWD platform. Hell, even if they don't, a longitudinal FWD platform is much better than the transverse platform we see in the current car.

I am calling it right now, unless they don't put full attention to address this issue, then they're screwed. However on the bright side, there are generally no heavy hitting competitors for the ES, so if they actually release a new GS, they may shift to that car instead, simply because the platform is more superior for a luxury sedan. Or in the case of the new ES, a luxury (sports) sedan.
I dont see the big deal in overhang, with every new TNGA, they actually reduced them.

Point here is that engine sits in front of the axle, and not behind like in LS. Thus you have larger overhang, plus design wise, they are making front end lower which requires more space and to me it looks a lot better than 2" shorter overhangs in some cars that end up having tall like a brick front end.

For instance that S90 has short overhangs, but car in person does not look good at all, it has tall front end that looks like in SUV (and it looks more natural in V90 version). Back end also finishes tall, car looks frumpy (and rear light design kill it) and it has large overhang of course, so it looks completely unbalanced.

And since that long wheelbase is used for the cabin exclusively, and not for the engine, you will have much larger area in the back for the passengers.

As to the switch to the RWD, that makes no sense at all and no they are not screwed, it will become best selling Lexus sedan worldwide in the history of the brand.
A while back, Lexus stated that the spindle requires more real estate on the front end of the car to design. Think about it... the hood slopes down to the front of the car and then they create the waterfall effect with the spindle, and then it generally juts out just towards the bottom of the bumper. This is very different from when we had smaller grills and bumpers that were more swept back.

Also, even if you look at RWD LS, Lexus simply does not care about front overhangs anymore. Look at UX and RX - both are terrible and quite foolish looking. FWD cars + spindle grill is a bad combination for design and Lexus has chosen form over function. It is what it is, unfortunately. It looks quite ridiculous.

With all of that said, I do not think the ES front overhang looks bad in these pics. In fact, it is quite similar to LS in that side-by-side photo. Part if that is because LS has a longer front overhang than it should for a RWD, longitudinal chassis with a V6... but here we are again at how the spindle impacts the design of the front end.
F1 Silver Arrows
I wish it was an exaggeration, because these are issues that reviewers and owners alike have reported from the 2018 Camry. I wouldn't waste my time here to spew anything but the truth here to be honest. Think of it like this. It will be the achilles heel for the new ES if they don't address the issue.
The point is they are by no means screwed by going transverse FWD. It will have close to zero impact on the financial side.

Gecko
Lexus simply does not care about front overhangs anymore. Look at UX and RX - both are terrible and quite foolish looking. FWD cars + spindle grill is a bad combination for design and Lexus has chosen form over function. It is what it is, unfortunately. It looks quite ridiculous.
Well, at least we will have HUGE "frunks" when they go electric. What are we going do with so much luggage space!
ssun30
The point is they are by no means screwed by going transverse FWD. It will have close to zero impact on the financial side.
Exactly. This will be the most successful ES ever, without a doubt. It looks great overall and has a nice implementation of spindle + LED headlights vs. previous version where spindle was tacked on at the refresh.

Most of all, the addition of AWD is big, but addition of F-Sport is huge... HUGE. This could sell 5-6k per month easily, even in a falling sedan market.
ssun30
The point is they are by no means screwed by going transverse FWD. It will have close to zero impact on the financial side.
Exactly. This will be the most successful ES ever, without a doubt. It looks great overall and has a nice implementation of spindle + LED headlights vs. previous version where spindle was tacked on at the refresh.

Most of all, the addition of AWD is big, but addition of F-Sport is huge... HUGE. This could sell 5-6k per month easily, even in a falling sedan market.
Gecko
I wonder if they will add ES 250 for US?
No because it will make it too cheap, deep into Avalon's territory.
Gecko
Exactly. This will be the most successful ES ever, without a doubt. It looks great overall and has a nice implementation of spindle + LED headlights vs. previous version where spindle was tacked on at the refresh.

Most of all, the addition of AWD is big, but addition of F-Sport is huge... HUGE. Remember when the internet said they didn't need to build an F Sport RX? Look at it now. This ES could sell 5-6k per month easily, even in a falling sedan market. I wonder if they will add ES 250 for US?
I think it will also be big everywhere, so ES might go over 200k sales worldwide for the first time... and that might bring us more options, more powertrains, etc.
spwolf
I think it will also be big everywhere, so ES might go over 200k sales worldwide for the first time... and that might bring us more options, more powertrains, etc.
Not really. BMW makes 520d all the way to M5. Most sold are 520d and 530i. If it were TMC, they'd just build these, without making the I6 and V8.
Levi
Not really. BMW makes 520d all the way to M5. Most sold are 520d and 530i. If it were TMC, they'd just build these, without making the I6 and V8.
but it is already shown to be true though. We already are certain that there will be ES F-Sport , and there are strong, substantial rumors of AWD too. Those two new additions are the proof that bigger expected sales and worldwide availability will expand ES lineup.

I am also pretty sure that worldwide Lexus ES will be available with many powertrains such as 2.0l 4cly, 2.5l 4cly, 2.0t and 3.5l V6... Together with 300h, thats 5 different powertrains.
spwolf
but it is already shown to be true though. We already are certain that there will be ES F-Sport , and there are strong, substantial rumors of AWD too. Those two new additions are the proof that bigger expected sales and worldwide availability will expand ES lineup.

I am also pretty sure that worldwide Lexus ES will be available with many powertrains such as 2.0l 4cly, 2.5l 4cly, 2.0t and 3.5l V6... Together with 300h, thats 5 different powertrains.
But that is also the reason why ES does not need to be RWD-based to have a V8, otherwise there would be a new gen GS.
Levi
But that is also the reason why ES does not need to be RWD-based to have a V8, otherwise there would be a new gen GS. LS still has a business case unlike the GS.
I dont quite understand what you are saying. I did not write anything about V8 or replacing GS, just more powertrains and options will be available for ES since it is a worldwide car. Simply, more money is being put into its development.

It does not need an V8 ever, and it is not replacing GS-F. GS is quite likely to continue from the stories posted here by well informed sources, just will have different market - sport coupe sedan one.
R
  • R
    RAL
  • April 19, 2018
F1 Silver Arrows
Dear god what is with those front overhangs?:weary_face: What an absolute mess, it's totally going to ruin the balance of the car.:pensive:

As to the question of overhangs ... Now this is an overhang!

View attachment 2817

But ... a shark needs room for a big mouth to eat your children!

View attachment 2818
R
  • R
    RAL
  • April 19, 2018
As to the question of overhangs ... this is an overhang!

View attachment 2819

But, a shark needs room for a large mouth in order to be able to eat your children! :worried:

View attachment 2820
I never knew what front overhangs are until now, and now that I know, I don't understand why it's so hated on. Sure, some cars would look better with the wheels stretched out to the front, but it doesn't really look that bad without doing so. For the sporty type of car, then I would agree that the overhangs should be short, but for a FWD family sedan like the ES, I don't think it's a big deal. For the GS, which is more about performance, it will have shorter front overhangs when it is (hopefully :tired_face::tired_face:) debuted.
I guess I am the only one skeptic of this new ES. However if they don't address a few things immediately that people usually will gripe about in regards to this car then I don't think this should be any more special than the past ES cars. I do hope Lexus proves me wrong, because at the end I would want them to knock this thing out of the park. So far, I am just not feeling it. Sorry guys.
Overall I like the design a lot, the front end works very well for me. I do have to say it is interesting to see what looks to be a rear spoiler and its a hybrid model. Surely the F-Sport (if it comes) will have the usual mesh grill and different facia/rear etc. To me its the first ES in photos that looks "dynamic" and now "dowdy" or "meh".

I am VERY curious did the ES lose rear headroom like the LS did going for a sportier look. Or was some magic done.
THe Avalon really looks quite Lexus Like in detail sans that front end.

The minimal gap between the front wheel and door cutout still screams FWD to me. Not a fan.
mikeavelli
Overall I like the design a lot, the front end works very well for me. I do have to say it is interesting to see what looks to be a rear spoiler and its a hybrid model. Surely the F-Sport (if it comes) will have the usual mesh grill and different facia/rear etc. To me its the first ES in photos that looks "dynamic" and now "dowdy" or "meh".

I am VERY curious did the ES lose rear headroom like the LS did going for a sportier look. Or was some magic done.
THe Avalon really looks quite Lexus Like in detail sans that front end.

The minimal gap between the front wheel and door cutout still screams FWD to me. Not a fan.
I share the exact same thoughts as you @mikeavelli. Great summary.
F1 Silver Arrows
I guess I am the only one skeptic of this new ES. However if they don't address a few things immediately that people usually will gripe about in regards to this car then I don't think this should be any more special than the past ES cars. I do hope Lexus proves me wrong, because at the end I would want them to knock this thing out of the park. If I'm honest, I just am not feeling it. Sorry guys.



You see, that's the kind of engineering I want Lexus to put into the new ES. I will be much more content if they address this issue. I am usually not a pessimistic person and am always a person who looks forward to everything being better in the future. However, knowing Lexus' history with the ES, I am setting the bar real low.
Add me
krew
I imagine it will have CarPlay, just like the UX. So big upgrade coming in that regard.



Have to figure they will announce all engines at once, as there are no other shows until the Fall. I imagine the ES comes arrives in dealers late this summer.

Do we have a bet going on engines? I'm figuring it will mirror the Camry exactly, right down to the 301-hp 3.5-liter V-6 engine. Big thing for me is AWD -- I can't believe how excited I am about an ES. Just a very interesting model.
I wish there will be a 2.5T version announced later. This will reduce compound tax rate by 30% in China, or about $10K, the reason why Lexus killed GS 350 IS 350 RX350 and ES 350 in China.

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