Toyota North America CEO Jim Lentz Discusses Lexus Brand Strategy

[Rhambler]

One thing I've noticed, anecdotedely, is that Toyota (Lexus) has a history of outsourcing engines.

Yamaha, for example, seems ubiquitous in a lot of well-known engines across Toyota and Lexus. For example, the 2 liter Turbo in the MR2 was designed, I think, by Yamaha. The current 5 Liter V8 is also Yamaha designed. Not sure about the older V8s, like the 4.6 through 4.0, but it wouldn't surprise me if Yamaha wasn't involved in those either.

Which brings me to my point: Toyota has lost touch with engine and power train development, relying instead on third parties for a number of important engines.

In the old days, when engine cycles lasted much longer, this was probably fine and that's why they got away with it. Today, when competitors are constantly pushing out improvements (I.e., HP gains, fuel efficiency, etc.) on a much, much, much faster cycle, this strategy falls on its face; they can't keep up and that's why almost every engine found across the board is old and dare I say kind of pathetic.

It's not uncommon for competitors to make constant incremental improvements. For example, Audi's 4.0 liter V8, went from 420 to 450 HP four years after it was introduced. Likewise for MB and Benz.

Maybe this strategy (laziness) is coming back to haunt them. They can't innovate.

When it comes to cars, numbers do matter and they're behind. 0-60, HP, torque, all make a difference when someone is spending $50k to $100k+.

Another thing that bothers me is that Toyota overstates their 0-60 numbers, badly imo. It's not reality. Why they actually can't make a smooth, quiet, powerful car like the A8 4.0 or S550 is beyond me. Those cars are typically faster than manufactured-stated numbers.

I'll believe the 0-60 LS numbers when I see a third party do it. Until then it's all BS.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Which brings me to my point: Toyota has lost touch with engine and power train development, relying instead on third parties for a number of important engines.

This strikes me as spinning a lot of conjecture from a thin thread of fact. The 2UR-GSE has Yamaha heads on a Toyota block; as far as I know that's the entire extent of Yamaha's involvement in current Toyota/Lexus powertrains. And the Dynamic Force engines certainly seem to indicate Toyota's engineers are quite conversant with the state of the art, given their up to 40% thermal efficiency.

But even if Yamaha tuned all of Toyota/Lexus's engines, so what? The original late-80s Taurus SHO was a great car because of its Yamaha V8. Nobody at the time cast aspersions on the Blue Oval's powertrain group, they were too busy doing donuts and burnouts in the SHO.

The bottom line is that Toyota/Lexus's collaborations with Yamaha produced the MR-2, LF-A, and LC500. If that's supposed to be bad, then I don't wanna be good.

 

[Rhambler]

You're missing the point: they are slow, lackadaisical and behind the curve in engine development.

Their past history of outsourcing (like to Yamaha for key engines, part or whole, for example) says a lot to me: it's either not important to them and they would rather direct R&D elsewhere or they lack the engineering talent to do it.

Those decisions are coming home to roost.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

You're missing the point: they are slow, lackadaisical and behind the curve in engine development.

18 months ago you could've posted this and we'd all have nodded sadly and bought a Benz out of shame. But to quote a recent news article:

Within the five years to the end of 2021, Toyota plans to introduce 17 versions of nine engines, including the 2.5-liter engine announced today, 10 versions of four transmissions, including multi-geared automatic transmissions and a new kind of continuously variable transmission, and 10 versions of six hybrid systems.​

Just to nail that in further: Toyota's announced the '18 Camry will have an available all-new 301 HP V6. Honda's announced the new Accord will only have 4-bangers. It's going to be fun when those decisions come home to roost at stoplights everywhere.

 

[CIF]

One thing I've noticed, anecdotedely, is that Toyota (Lexus) has a history of outsourcing engines.

Yamaha, for example, seems ubiquitous in a lot of well-known engines across Toyota and Lexus. For example, the 2 liter Turbo in the MR2 was designed, I think, by Yamaha. The current 5 Liter V8 is also Yamaha designed. Not sure about the older V8s, like the 4.6 through 4.0, but it wouldn't surprise me if Yamaha wasn't involved in those either.

Which brings me to my point: Toyota has lost touch with engine and power train development, relying instead on third parties for a number of important engines.

In the old days, when engine cycles lasted much longer, this was probably fine and that's why they got away with it. Today, when competitors are constantly pushing out improvements (I.e., HP gains, fuel efficiency, etc.) on a much, much, much faster cycle, this strategy falls on its face; they can't keep up and that's why almost every engine found across the board is old and dare I say kind of pathetic.

It's not uncommon for competitors to make constant incremental improvements. For example, Audi's 4.0 liter V8, went from 420 to 450 HP four years after it was introduced. Likewise for MB and Benz.

Maybe this strategy (laziness) is coming back to haunt them. They can't innovate.

When it comes to cars, numbers do matter and they're behind. 0-60, HP, torque, all make a difference when someone is spending $50k to $100k+.

Another thing that bothers me is that Toyota overstates their 0-60 numbers, badly imo. It's not reality. Why they actually can't make a smooth, quiet, powerful car like the A8 4.0 or S550 is beyond me. Those cars are typically faster than manufactured-stated numbers.

I'll believe the 0-60 LS numbers when I see a third party do it. Until then it's all BS.

I'll say this as respectfully as I can, but you don't know what you're taking about with regards to Toyota's history and experience in engine development.

There is no "outsourcing" to speak of going on here. Yamaha for decades has been very close to Toyota, and unofficially part of the large Toyota keiretsu. Officially Toyota has owned a share of Yamaha itself for quite a long time. Engineers and designers have gone back and forth between the two companies at certain points. That should tell you in fact how close they are.

Furthermore, on virtually every engine project Yamaha was partnered with Toyota, the extent of Yamaha's involvement was final tuning or working on the heads.

Toyota's own F1 engine was designed from scratch, and was far superior to Yamaha's F1 engine from the 1990s.

The 1LR LFA engine was developed mainly through Toyota's F1 engine experience. Yamaha partnered on that engine mostly for, again, head work, tuning, and specifically acoustic signature as well.

I won't keep going with this as there are many other examples, but the point is clear. Yes Toyota is behind right now on engine development. That's part of a bigger story where they've been behind on quite a few redesigns. That in no way means they lack the knowledge or experience to design world class engines without anyone's help.

If you're not aware of the facts of Toyota's history, it might be wise to not say anything at all.

 

[CIF]

Lentz's comments were not great, but they were also riddled with errors and obviously from someone spending all their time on the Toyota side. The gross miscalculation of German sales figures, referring to the new platforms as TGNA and not GA-L, these do not inspire confidence that he's completely tuned into things.

Just to clarify on the bold part, Lentz wasn't really wrong there. GA-L is simply the nomenclature Toyota is using for certain TNGA platforms with the Lexus brand. In other words, GA-L itself is simply a TNGA platform variant.

 

[Rhambler]

I don't know Toyota's history; I never said I did. I was trying to speculate as to why they are lacking so much in engine development and their "partnership" with Yamaha, both past and present, seemed like a somewhat plausible explanation.

Because of this partnership, it would be easy to assume they either didn't feel the need to invest in this field or don't have the in-house expertise.

I'm simply trying to understand why they are lacking as I doubt anyone would argue otherwise. They didn't wake up one day and discover they're behind. Choices long ago are probably why they are in this predicament. Nothing happens overnight, especially in a large corporation like Toyota.

 

[Carmaker1]

Just to clarify on the bold part, Lentz wasn't really wrong there. GA-L is simply the nomenclature Toyota is using for certain TNGA platforms with the Lexus brand. In other words, GA-L itself is simply a TNGA platform variant.

Yes, excellent point. As I have said a few times before, Lexus = Toyota Motor Corporation('s best efforts). However, Lexus ≠ Toyota brand. People cannot jump up at every mention of Toyota, as the parent company bears that name. It is pretty much the family crest.

At times I wonder, if it would have been better to give the brand the name "Toyota" and everything else "Toyoda". As in Toyoda Motor Corporation or Toyoda Jidosha Kabushiki Kaisha.

The LC is a product of the Toyota Motor Company and can be respectfully recognized as such, but that doesn't mean its a super 86 coupe. It is too bad, that many writers use this connection to a maker of mass-produced automotive commuters, to abuse public sentiment towards Lexus flagship and halo offerings.

Plus the fact that detractors and overly biased parties stupidly jump on these grey loopholes, as if they are factual and not closer to fallacies, for self-serving reasons.

Since the 200B LS and 950A LC are the first New Global Architecture products, we haven't seen how marketing personnel want to refer to non-RWD applications. GA-K and GA-K are likely candidates, to avoid the mention of "Toyota" in marketing. The UX and 240B ES, will tell us their intentions.

At this point, while I do expect a new Land Cruiser in 2 years, I still remain unsure of the LX future as a re-engineered Land Cruiser and if it will get designated GA-F or is a unibody GA-L. It is likely being shown at private Lexus conferences this year.

 

[James]

The new camry has a 300hp V6 engine. Am assuming the next Avalon and ES should be making more than that. So now am really curious about the next IS and GS.

I agree. The whole IS/GS future I'm really curious to see. Especially cause one of those will more than likely be my next car. Of course if they cancel the GS that makes the decision easier...

 

[spwolf]

You're missing the point: they are slow, lackadaisical and behind the curve in engine development.

Their past history of outsourcing (like to Yamaha for key engines, part or whole, for example) says a lot to me: it's either not important to them and they would rather direct R&D elsewhere or they lack the engineering talent to do it.

Those decisions are coming home to roost.

As someone mentioned, Toyota is largest non-yamaha shareholder of Yamaha.

As to being slow, I would think that they were likely being safe when it comes to turbos and large engines... if we dont calculate turbos on V6 and V8 engines, they are not behind - as a company, Toyota has some of the best engines around. But sure, when it comes to V6 and V8's, bi-turbo engines are long overdue, and they need those for marking reasons...

 

[spwolf]

I have lost some faith in ToMoCo's planing cycle for many reasons, but mostly for the fact that their timing continues to be off for about the last 10 years as @Dreski mentioned.

Historical:
10 year old Tundra
10 year old Sequoia
8 year old 4Runner
Weak Tacoma refresh billed as "new"
6 year old Sienna
GR engines had too long of a lifecycle without significant updates (15 years now)
10 year 4th gen LS
Mismanagement of GS line - 300 to 350, 430 to 460 with detuned V8, 4GS debuts with carryover engine and 6AT
RC is a half assed effort - the only reason I can think to use the IS C tub was to support a convertible, which isn't even going to happen now. The car should have been on either the GS or IS platform in it's entirety and that would have made much more sense

Actually what they are talking about is being late with B, C (C-HR) and large luxury SUV. Not Tundra or Sequia or very successful 4Runner and Sienna.

As to the Core models, it depends on market and is based on sales, but with Lexus it matters little because they just invested a lot of money into LS and LC and traditionally they invest very little in ES or these cheaper models like NX where MMC changes are tiny.

 

[spwolf]

But mostly it's important to remember that Lentz has effectively no influence on Lexus product development. He takes what Japan gives him. And what Japan has on offer that we actually know of (as opposed to speculation) is pretty sweet: the LC and LS are effectively re-launching Lexus with the best duo the brand has had since the LS400/SC300 1-2 punch of the 90s. Let's see if that filters down or not before we all get on the BMW new-engine-every-15,000-miles treadmill ;-)

LS and LC are specifically made for US market.... whole Lexus brand is like 40% USA... so most of the plans are made with US in mind and influenced by USA.

I read the interview and what exactly is the problem with one paragraph he talks about Lexus? When he says he cant have same lineup, he thinks of vehicles like 1 hatch/sedan/coupe/convertible, 2 MPV, X1, X4, X6, 3 GT, 5 GT, 6 4 doors, 4 4 doors, etc.

In fact they have invested a lot of money in LC, RC which will always be slower selling vehicles, as well as new LS... so lineup is expanding, and new small SUV is coming soon too.

 

[bogglo]

I agree. The whole IS/GS future I'm really curious to see. Especially cause one of those will more than likely be my next car. Of course if they cancel the GS that makes the decision easier...

I hope they don't cancel the GS. It would be a big mistake. Lexus just need to play their cards right with the GS.

 

[krew]

Just to clarify on the bold part, Lentz wasn't really wrong there. GA-L is simply the nomenclature Toyota is using for certain TNGA platforms with the Lexus brand. In other words, GA-L itself is simply a TNGA platform variant.

Yes, excellent point. As I have said a few times before, Lexus = Toyota Motor Corporation('s best efforts). However, Lexus ≠ Toyota brand. People cannot jump up at every mention of Toyota, as the parent company bears that name. It is pretty much the family crest.

Absolutely -- it's the same exact thing. However, the early parts of this conversation showed just how important optics are when referring to these new platforms. TGNA makes it seem like Lexus will be releasing only FWD cars moving forward, and that's not what people want to hear.

I guarantee Lexus execs were not thrilled by this Lentz interview. : unamused:

 

[Gecko]

Actually what they are talking about is being late with B, C (C-HR) and large luxury SUV. Not Tundra or Sequia or very successful 4Runner and Sienna.

As to the Core models, it depends on market and is based on sales, but with Lexus it matters little because they just invested a lot of money into LS and LC and traditionally they invest very little in ES or these cheaper models like NX where MMC changes are tiny.

They are already late. Tundra dates back to 2007MY and Sequoia in 2008MY, so 10 years old is not really acceptable when we have had almost 2 generations of F-150, Ram and Silverado in that time. We should have had an all new Tundra for 2014, not a sheetmetal refresh.

4Runner should be all-new for 2018 as it has historically been on an 8 year model plan. Sienna dates back to 2011, so stretching it out to 2020 or 2021 puts it on a 9-10 year cycle.

 

[mikeavelli]

I think if consumers scoffed at the engines, they would be more quick to move. Since the vehicles are selling one way or the other, they seem to be a bit content. Not very Kaizen like.

The 3.5 V-6 is a weak point on our RX F-Sport. It's not fast, it doesn't get the best MPG, it is quite adequate. I would slay for the new 3.0tt V-6 with 415hp in it.

We are all surely crossing our fingers for new engines soon. I do have to say its quite ballsy Toyota is keeping the V-6 in the Camry and it makes over 300hp while the Accord is moving to 4 cylinders only. So there is hope somewhere lol.