Toyota Announces AWD Camry and Avalon

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Again Lexus succeeded with the FF because 2 main reasons,

1) Toyota give Lexus this chance , by the poor quality of handling , fit & finish in Camry and Avalon until this current generation.

2) Lexus itself by not giving the GS & IS media promotion with 1/4 the media budget they gave to the ES
I don't really think that the problem is lack of media budget or lack of money spent updating the GS and the IS. The real problem is that buyers clearly prefer the more established and prestigious nameplates of the 3/5 series and the C/E class, so in a shrinking luxury sedan market, these established players are going to squeeze everyone else out (just like how the Camry, the most established medium sized sedan nameplate, is squeezing out all its competitors in the market, including the arguably superior Honda Accord). The only way Lexus can compete in sedans now is by having a product which doesn't compete directly with the Germans (hence the ES).

We all want to believe that a stylish new 5GS would reverse the fortunes of the nameplate and bring sales back. I think realistically though, a new GS on GA-N, while competent, would not be enough to overpower the 5 series and the E class.

I support Lexus' decision to focus its attention on crossover projects like the LF1, where hopefully it can build its brand prestige.
 

maiaramdan

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Regarding the crossovers Lexus is way late to the game

I still remember the HPX , tell me please if they are really into the performance crossovers where is the LF-S & LF-X from 2003, honestly if from then they take the LF-X and put it as GX as everyone was saying then??? ,
it was a real hit back then, and it started then that coupe SUV even before the X6, with the LF-1 production version Lexus will be nearly 20 years late from a segment they just started with a concept never get the production green light

back regarding to IS & GS , even Lexus themselves somehow admit they won't put a money on GS & IS in fact back in 2013 when the current GS appeared , there were a lot of articles that Lexus was going to ditch the GS from back then, but thanks to Akio they give it another chance but with approximately no adv. budget, in fact the only 2 or 3 promotion campaign I still remembering them, the first was before the GS reveled while still under camo., the second promoting the hybrid system in the GS450h and the third was by Lexus Europe to promote the hybrid with the AWD

Lexus killed the GS and knows exactly what they are doing

i am really sad when I keep hearing the update and how Genesis brand evolving fast, good and steady
 

Gecko

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Again Lexus succeeded with the FF because 2 main reasons,

1) Toyota give Lexus this chance , by the poor quality of handling , fit & finish in Camry and Avalon until this current generation.

2) Lexus itself by not giving the GS & IS media promotion with 1/4 the media budget they gave to the ES
To your point, Lexus has been making this bed for a long time... I'm just not sure if they're going to like sleeping in it when the reality hits. Toyota has come to view Lexus as an expense line item - not a valuable brand/tool to "compete" in the premium segment.

Camry and Avalon are now better than they've ever been, and offer SE/XSE, Touring, Limited, hybrid, TRD, AWD models... why do you buy an ES? If you want wood trim and 12" screen?

You can say that Lexus is "doing fine" with growth in China, but the Lexus product is fundamentally inferior to BMW, Mercedes and Audi, and that reality will hit them in China and new markets after the newness wears off. I am in disbelief at the current state of the brand, and what I hear for future product is only more depressing. I expect 4IS to be the last generation of IS, leaving Lexus with an ES/LS strategy for sedans within a few years. The sad part? I know this is what many inside Lexus are REALLY excited about. The future after this is electrified and hybrid, so they can share one platform between ES and LS and use electricity to offset the FWD characteristics in LS.

With no GS, and then the future of IS and RC in doubt, Lexus just becomes a Toyota trim level in the long term. Mazda moving to turbo I6 motors and RWD, and Genesis preparing to launch their lineup of SUVs. Lexus could be Infiniti/Acura within 5 years, and that is not an exaggeration when you track how the brand has been pacing since 2012 or so.

Also, is LC F even happening at this point? We've been hearing about that engine since 2007 and "LC F" since the debut of the LC. With sedan and coupe sales tanking, I believe Lexus has probably cancelled the product and does not see it as worthy of investment.
 
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To your point, Lexus has been making this bed for a long time... I'm just not sure if they're going to like sleeping in it when the reality hits. Toyota has come to view Lexus as an expense line item - not a valuable brand/tool to "compete" in the premium segment.

Camry and Avalon are now better than they've ever been, and offer SE/XSE, Touring, Limited, hybrid, TRD, AWD models... why do you buy an ES? If you want wood trim and 12" screen?

You can say that Lexus is "doing fine" with growth in China, but the Lexus product is fundamentally inferior to BMW, Mercedes and Audi, and that reality will hit them in China and new markets after the newness wears off. I am in disbelief at the current state of the brand, and what I hear for future product is only more depressing. I expect 4IS to be the last generation of IS, leaving Lexus with an ES/LS strategy for sedans within a few years. The sad part? I know this is what many inside Lexus are REALLY excited about. The future after this is electrified and hybrid, so they can share one platform between ES and LS and use electricity to offset the FWD characteristics in LS.

With no GS, and then the future of IS and RC in doubt, Lexus just becomes a Toyota trim level in the long term. Mazda moving to turbo I6 motors and RWD, and Genesis preparing to launch their lineup of SUVs. Lexus could be Infiniti/Acura within 5 years, and that is not an exaggeration when you track how the brand has been pacing since 2012 or so.

Also, is LC F even happening at this point? We've been hearing about that engine since 2007 and "LC F" since the debut of the LC. With sedan and coupe sales tanking, I believe Lexus has probably cancelled the product and does not see it as worthy of investment.
The idea of the LS EVER being FWD makes my f*cking blood boil.
 

maiaramdan

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@Gecko , agree with you 100%

Honestly current Lexus as a case study is just nothing other than another Toyota's with another brand, same as they already doing in Japan selling their cars under 2 or 3 sub brands

Toyota have the executive mid sporty FR sedan "Crown".
Toyota have the small sporty FR sedan "Mark" and will use Mazda i6 in the next generation.
Toyota have the top flagship FR sedan "Century".

Toyota have 2 sporty coupes 86 & Supra with another 2 in reviving mode Celica & MR with the MR kept relating to Porsche.

Avalon is much better package than ES, handling and fit & finish which were the past Avalon main cons

For God sake why we need Lexus then

The only thing that may make a case for Lexus is just and only the FR sporty sedans and crossovers
 

Gecko

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The idea of the LS EVER being FWD makes my f*cking blood boil.
I don't think it will just be FWD... but on a flexible FWD platform where they can engineer electricity or a hybrid powertrain to power the rear wheels, so, AWD.
 

Carmaker1

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2021 MY production does begin in September 2020, so this AWD car needs to enter production very soon I imagine.
 

mikeavelli

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It's funny how the Camry V-6 used to offer 200hp and today its an I-4 and much better MPG. I think performance is similar. Crazy how technology improves things..

Weird, haven't heard anything recently on the ES AWD...
 

Joaquin Ruhi

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Weird, haven't heard anything recently on the ES AWD...
Neither have I, but the decision to offer Camry and, especially, Avalon AWD only with the 2.5-liter 4 tells me that's the reason Lexus registered the recent ES 250 trademark in the U.S. I think it'll be unveiled at either the upcoming New York (press days April 8 &9) or Detroit (press days June 9 & 10) auto shows.
 

Will1991

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Maybe Lexus is finishing everything with that stronger e-axle which some journalists get to test drive some weeks ago?
 
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Gecko

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I will be interested to see what the take rate is on these AWD models. If decent, perhaps Toyota would consider a stronger implementation going forward, like DTV AWD instead of DTC.
 

spwolf

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I will be interested to see what the take rate is on these AWD models. If decent, perhaps Toyota would consider a stronger implementation going forward, like DTV AWD instead of DTC.
I think they expect 12%... problem is always pricing, if they price it higher, less sales.

Camry V6 currently has 6% take rate, which explains why they did 4cly only.
 

Will1991

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I will be interested to see what the take rate is on these AWD models. If decent, perhaps Toyota would consider a stronger implementation going forward, like DTV AWD instead of DTC.
They did joined forces with Subaru for BEV's and "improved AWD systems" (I think it was this exact way), so a proper AWD system might be coming in around 4 years, maybe next gen Camry/Avalon?
 

ssun30

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Meanwhile Avalon and ES V6 take rate is almost 90%. Okay it makes a lot of sense on the Camry. But it's almost illogical the buyer has to choose between a 4 cylinder AWD and a 6 cylinder FWD Avalon, if you look at any manufacturer it's the other way around.

There's no reason to not develop a V6+DTV AWD when that combo is already available on another TNGA-K vehicle. So much for that 'TNGA modularity'. Unless the long-term goal is to completely kill V6 in favor of E-axle, but we know that's unlikely to happen, and the 2GR-FKS may survive well into late 2020s given their track record.
 

Will1991

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@ssun30 , I've read around here that AWD ES will have a V6, so they might be trying to get Lexus as a more special product. If they do it, it will show they're caring and looking more to Lexus
 
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