The death spiral of EV battery sizing: how bZ4X and RZ450e compare to the state-of-the-art

ssun30

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The rather conservative/disappointing range of TMC's first two "real" BEVs left brand enthusiasts with mixed emotions. It is generally accepted that their range estimates are inadequate for a dedicated platform EV launched in 2022 and are only comparable to competitors from 2018-2019 time period (so-called ICEV conversions).

It is well known in the EV industry that increasing range targets creates a death spiral. This is because more range requires more battery, but energy efficiency goes down because the car has to carry extra weight. At some point diminishing returns will make a very long range EV physically overweight and economically overpriced. The 'sweet spot' before diminishing returns start to hurt is dependent on two variables: system energy density (kWh/kg) and system cost ($/kWh). Both are predominantly affected by battery technology.

So how does battery sizing change with range for different segments in 2022? I've made the tables below. I'm using similar set of analysis used in beginning stages of EV design when a range target is chosen based on the battery they have access to and size of the product. The assumptions are very simplistic: the product is baseline single-trim and single-motor configuration since that's the model used for range marketing. The scaling equations are modified each year to fit the most advanced product of that time. The range estimate is based on EPA cycle. Energy is usable capacity so actual capacity is ~10% higher.

For a Segment B city car, there is no clear sweet spot. This is because they are generally very light and efficient to begin with. But they are constrained by volume not weight. The sweet spot today is ~300km range with a ~40kWh battery weighing 1200kg.
city car.png
For a compact car, the sweet spot seems to be around 400-450km with 62-72kWh battery weighing 1600-1700kg.
compact car.png
For a mid-size SUV, the sweet spot is 400-450km with 75-90kWh battery weighing 2000-2100kg. These are the specs bZ4X/RZ450e should have aimed for if they wanted to be competitive. And indeed we see majority of their competitors in this range.
midsize suv.png
For a full-size SUV it's hard to say because they are already too heavy and already suffer heavily from diminished return. I would say it's 450-500km with 110-125kWh battery weighing 2600-2800kg.
fullsize suv.png
And pickup trucks are just stupid. With current technology there is no way to build an EV truck with reasonable weight and cost. That's how we got inefficient monsters like Rivian R1T and outright garbage like Hummer EV. A 300-mi truck needs a 130kWh battery and weighs 3 tons!
pickup.png
 

ssun30

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So in summary, if Toyota wants to build EVs that are competitive from 2022 to 2025, they would need the following specifications:

1) BZ"2"/"UZ" (subcompact): base 33kWh with 250km/155mi range; LR 42kWh with 300km/186mi range. Weight ~1200-1300kg.
2) BZ"3"/"4"/"NZ" (compact): base 62kWh with 400km/248mi range; LR 72kWh with 450km/280mi range. Weight 1700-1800kg.
3) BZ"5"/"RZ" (midsize): base 75kWh with 400km/248mi range; LR 90kWh with 450km/280mi range. Weight 2000-2100kg.
4) BZ"6"/"TZ" (fullsize): base 110kWh with 450km/280mi range; LR 125kWh with 500km/311mi range. Weight 2600-2800kg.

I would say the BZ4X is almost there in execution. Not state-of-the art but close. RZ450e is far off.
 
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ssun30

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I would also say Rivian's business model is by no means sustainable. They cannot bet their success on completely un-scalable pickups and full-size SUVs unless American people can just keep buying $70k+ cars without batting an eye. Their entire lineup is on the extreme end of diminishing returns, and their overstated range are shown in real world tests. They are not the next Tesla and I predict them to fail within the next 4 years.
 

LS500-18

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I would say the true "sweet spot" would be to flood the market with PHEV. The vast majority of people could drive full EV for their daily driving and not have to lug around 800+ lbs of batteries just to go buy a carton of milk. Long road trips made easy using an existing infrastructure. But oooh that's not sexy and cool, even though it's literally the most logical choice for many people.

I've owned PHEV, BEV, hybrid, and gas. I agree the Bz and RZ are not that competitive in 2022 but Toyota is not a BEV company. I do look forward to their solid state development, I think that will be a game changer.
 

Levi

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I would say the true "sweet spot" would be to flood the market with PHEV. The vast majority of people could drive full EV for their daily driving and not have to lug around 800+ lbs of batteries just to go buy a carton of milk. Long road trips made easy using an existing infrastructure. But oooh that's not sexy and cool, even though it's literally the most logical choice for many people.

I've owned PHEV, BEV, hybrid, and gas. I agree the Bz and RZ are not that competitive in 2022 but Toyota is not a BEV company. I do look forward to their solid state development, I think that will be a game changer.
PHEV is not significantly lighter than BEV, but it is not limited by range/charging stations/charging time.

Specs according to Toyota brochure:

bZ4X (AWD)RAV4 (PHEV)
Weight (kg)1.995 (min) / 2.060 (max)1.910 (min) / 2.000 (max)
0-100 km/h (sec)7,56,0
Vmax (km/h)160180
 

Sulu

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I would say the true "sweet spot" would be to flood the market with PHEV. The vast majority of people could drive full EV for their daily driving and not have to lug around 800+ lbs of batteries just to go buy a carton of milk. Long road trips made easy using an existing infrastructure. But oooh that's not sexy and cool, even though it's literally the most logical choice for many people.

I've owned PHEV, BEV, hybrid, and gas. I agree the Bz and RZ are not that competitive in 2022 but Toyota is not a BEV company. I do look forward to their solid state development, I think that will be a game changer.
I made a similar suggestion once, that automakers could and should produce more PHEVs -- specifically range-extenders. I was shot down.
 

NXracer

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So in summary, if Toyota wants to build EVs that are competitive from 2022 to 2025, they would need the following specifications:

1) BZ"2"/"UZ" (subcompact): base 33kWh with 250km/155mi range; LR 42kWh with 300km/186mi range. Weight ~1200-1300kg.
2) BZ"3"/"4"/"NZ" (compact): base 62kWh with 400km/248mi range; LR 72kWh with 450km/280mi range. Weight 1700-1800kg.
3) BZ"5"/"RZ" (midsize): base 75kWh with 400km/248mi range; LR 90kWh with 450km/280mi range. Weight 2000-2100kg.
4) BZ"6"/"TZ" (fullsize): base 110kWh with 450km/280mi range; LR 125kWh with 500km/311mi range. Weight 2600-2800kg.

I would say the BZ4X is almost there in execution. Not state-of-the art but close. RZ450e is far off.
As I mentioned in another thread, these vehicles are placeholders for whats hopefully to be competitive vehicles, but its not like these will be firesaled off the showroom floor. The USP of Toyota is enough them to move every single unit they can make for the uneducated buying public.

That being said, I do wonder if the dramatastic Sandy Munro's prophecy of OEMs being miles behind is starting to become clearer.
 

Sulu

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As I mentioned in another thread, these vehicles are placeholders for whats hopefully to be competitive vehicles, but its not like these will be firesaled off the showroom floor. The USP of Toyota is enough them to move every single unit they can make for the uneducated buying public.

That being said, I do wonder if the dramatastic Sandy Munro's prophecy of OEMs being miles behind is starting to become clearer.
It has become obvious to me that the RZ has been designed and built to appeal to Lexus crossover (specifically NX and RX) buyers. I will repeat what is well-known in the industry, that Toyota knows its customer base and what they will buy. I have no doubt that the RZ (and the bZ4X as well) will sell -- and sell well -- to Toyota's established customer base. Once these vehicles have been accepted by Lexus' and Toyota's customers, Toyota can start to introduce some of the "must-have" EV features (and perhaps attract conquest buyers).

Which brings me to a point I mentioned before: Just because Toyota's new EVs are not Tesla Models T(oyota) and L(exus), does that instantly mean that they are failures and do not deserve to be sold?

This is a similar argument to those (even in this forum) who would argue (without explicitly doing so) that Lexus is not a true luxury car brand because it is not German and does not offer some features that Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi do not have.
 

ssun30

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As I mentioned in another thread, these vehicles are placeholders for whats hopefully to be competitive vehicles, but its not like these will be firesaled off the showroom floor. The USP of Toyota is enough them to move every single unit they can make for the uneducated buying public.

That being said, I do wonder if the dramatastic Sandy Munro's prophecy of OEMs being miles behind is starting to become clearer.
In TMC's case, the lack of competitiveness is not a matter of competence, but unwillingness to undertake the risk associated with cutting edge EVs. Their business model is incompatible with the EV market today. 100 Teslas can burn and not have a cent of impact on TSLA stock. A single BZ4X/RZ catching fire is enough to destroy TMC's decades long reputation that is central to their entire business model.
 

NXracer

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It has become obvious to me that the RZ has been designed and built to appeal to Lexus crossover (specifically NX and RX) buyers. I will repeat what is well-known in the industry, that Toyota knows its customer base and what they will buy. I have no doubt that the RZ (and the bZ4X as well) will sell -- and sell well -- to Toyota's established customer base. Once these vehicles have been accepted by Lexus' and Toyota's customers, Toyota can start to introduce some of the "must-have" EV features (and perhaps attract conquest buyers).

Which brings me to a point I mentioned before: Just because Toyota's new EVs are not Tesla Models T(oyota) and L(exus), does that instantly mean that they are failures and do not deserve to be sold?

This is a similar argument to those (even in this forum) who would argue (without explicitly doing so) that Lexus is not a true luxury car brand because it is not German and does not offer some features that Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi do not have.
I dont think anyone can act as the gatekeeper for a mfg to bring their product to market, but does that mean Lexus NX/RX buyers are and will remain oblivious to what is out there, what their next door neighbor is parking in their driveway (regardless of how garbage that product actually is)?
 

ssun30

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This is a similar argument to those (even in this forum) who would argue (without explicitly doing so) that Lexus is not a true luxury car brand because it is not German and does not offer some features that Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi do not have.
It's increasingly hard to defend against that argument these days because Lexus not only doesn't offer features on BBA, but features on Toyotas.

Harrier, Sequoia, and soon Crown. It seems TMC is more interested in "Toyota+" premium models with more advanced tech than Lexus at much lower prices.
 

spwolf

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So in summary, if Toyota wants to build EVs that are competitive from 2022 to 2025, they would need the following specifications:

1) BZ"2"/"UZ" (subcompact): base 33kWh with 250km/155mi range; LR 42kWh with 300km/186mi range. Weight ~1200-1300kg.
2) BZ"3"/"4"/"NZ" (compact): base 62kWh with 400km/248mi range; LR 72kWh with 450km/280mi range. Weight 1700-1800kg.
3) BZ"5"/"RZ" (midsize): base 75kWh with 400km/248mi range; LR 90kWh with 450km/280mi range. Weight 2000-2100kg.
4) BZ"6"/"TZ" (fullsize): base 110kWh with 450km/280mi range; LR 125kWh with 500km/311mi range. Weight 2600-2800kg.

I would say the BZ4X is almost there in execution. Not state-of-the art but close. RZ450e is far off.

is this usable battery or gross? It seems that BZ4X has 65kwh usable, which explains the range despite good efficiency.
 

ssun30

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is this usable battery or gross? It seems that BZ4X has 65kwh usable, which explains the range despite good efficiency.
From ChDM specs the CATL batteries have 50.3kWh usable for SR and 66.7kWh usable for LR. Assuming similar reserve capacity the Panasonic pack has ~65kWh usable.
 

spwolf

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From ChDM specs the CATL batteries have 50.3kWh usable for SR and 66.7kWh usable for LR. Assuming similar reserve capacity the Panasonic pack has ~65kWh usable.

yeah, so that is why the range is small... if they wanted to reserve 10% to ensure longevity, they should have put 10kwh larger pack.
 

ssun30

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yeah, so that is why the range is small... if they wanted to reserve 10% to ensure longevity, they should have put 10kwh larger pack.
Adding an extra slice to make it a 108s (400V) pack would be perfect. 50kg extra weight and ~$1500 extra cost for 80kWh total capacity/72kWh usable. Still 160kg lighter than ID.4 and adds 10% range (280mi EPA/570km WLTP).

In the end it comes down to the $1500 they are unwilling to spend. I think for bZ4X that is reasonable. But for RZ it's indefensible.