Official 5th Generation GS Thread: Returning with Hydrogen Power?

[maiaramdan]

@Gecko , honestly as much as I hate that as much as I feel that Toyota legendary 70s to late 90s starting to return back step by step

 

[suxeL]

The real question would be if the 5th gen would have launched would it sell in generous numbers over its current gen. The ES is pretty stout, while the LS is pretty hard to move.

 

[CRSKTN]

The real question would be if the 5th gen would have launched would it sell in generous numbers over its current gen. The ES is pretty stout, while the LS is pretty hard to move.

The LS is hard to move because it wasnt the home run it needed to be, and then Lexus released an ES which looks very close to the LS and has more rear leg room (I think the LS refresh tries to address this).

Yes, if you didnt take way too long to release a product that, although a bold departure, wasn't the masterclass it needed to be, and then you undercut it immediately with another vehicle, maybe your halo sedan would have done better.

Someone here said they would've cancelled the LS alongside the GS if not for the historical significance of the LS, and honestly I can totally see it.

Toyota needs to stop viewing Lexus as a standalone thing. The idea that you don't want to meaningfully subsidize or fund development of your core image defining luxury lifestyle brand with your gargantuan mass market offerings is crazy, like, what're you even doing?

How many different models and configurations do the Germans have? What excuse does Lexus have to not even follow through on the GS in any form? It's a matter of the message. You're either saying "we do not have the knowledge, expertise, or motivation to match the wide variety of offerings our competitors have" or you are saying "we would like to do it, but can't justify splurging on Lexus". "We can't do it" or "it's a money issue", neither are the message you want to send to attract luxury car buyers.

And to be honest, and this may come off sounding a bit elitist so I'll apologize, but nowadays when I deal with the dealership, I am stuck in the middle of an ocean of UX/NX/base model owners (no offense to you, they are great options for buyers in that market). I have also noticed that the local dealers have cut back on services at the same time. The extras either aren't there, or they don't have anyone staffing them (e.g. look at the fancy massage center. Oh whoops noone is there. Oh nice a coffee bar. Oh let me sit here for 15 minutes before realizing I would need to go to the concierge to ask for someone to make one for me. Sorry, the golf simulator broke in 2018 and we haven't bothered to fix or remove it.)

Getting loaners has also gotten more difficult, and finding sales reps that are knowledgeable and excited has become way harder as everyone seems focused on conning young people and families into crazy financing schemes to get them into entry level vehicles.

The guys I used to buy from have all moved on to sell other brands. I literally had floor salesmen so jaded that they would straight up tell me "f*** the [insert Lexus model here], go check out XYZ", and bam within a few months they had left for elsewhere. I have never in my life see a BMW or Benz salesperson make that sort of comment. They always had something in the lineup that excited somebody about the brand, even if they only ended up buying a lesser or different class of vehicle from the same brand.

I have to wonder if this is a side effect if growing inequality combined with auto loan debt and longer terms of new car financings.

Who is the spiritual lead of Lexus as a global brand? Is it Akio? I wonder where the direction really comes from.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

The real question would be if the 5th gen would have launched would it sell in generous numbers over its current gen. The ES is pretty stout, while the LS is pretty hard to move.

I feel like they actually turned a low-volume Lexus into a low-volume Toyota, with apologies to @krew. And they should've at least made it available as a Lexus, a GS-FC or whatever. They've had no problem with the self-driving LS being identified as the best and brightest of Toyota, so why be different with the Mirai?

Toyota needs to stop viewing Lexus as a standalone thing. The idea that you don't want to meaningfully subsidize or fund development of your core image defining luxury lifestyle brand with your gargantuan mass market offerings is crazy, like, what're you even doing?

Yes. My fear is that if Toyota internalized that message it would mutate into "all Lexus vehicles need to be reworked as rebadges". One thing that's currently positive is that we haven't seen Lexus go rebadge crazy; if the LX is indeed replaced with the LF-1 that will actually eliminate one rebadge. (I count the NX and UX as more or less replacing the HS and CT, so the rebadge count stays constant with them).

And to be honest, and this may come off sounding a bit elitist so I'll apologize, but nowadays when I deal with the dealership, I am stuck in the middle of an ocean of UX/NX/base model owners (no offense to you, they are great options for buyers in that market). I have also noticed that the local dealers have cut back on services at the same time. The extras either aren't there, or they don't have anyone staffing them (e.g. look at the fancy massage center. Oh whoops noone is there. Oh nice a coffee bar. Oh let me sit here for 15 minutes before realizing I would need to go to the concierge to ask for someone to make one for me. Sorry, the golf simulator broke in 2018 and we haven't bothered to fix or remove it.)

Getting loaners has also gotten more difficult, and finding sales reps that are knowledgeable and excited has become way harder as everyone seems focused on conning young people and families into crazy financing schemes to get them into entry level vehicles.

I haven't had any of that experience with my local dealers. Both have the same services at the same level they've always had, loaners haven't been a problem, and as I've mentioned before they converted a new RX off the sales lot into a loaner for me when I came in without an appointment. I do feel that Lexus US needs to put more pressure on dealers to make the experience consistent and awesome though, because I know all dealers aren't as good as mine.

The guys I used to buy from have all moved on to sell other brands. I literally had floor salesmen so jaded that they would straight up tell me "f*** the [insert Lexus model here], go check out XYZ", and bam within a few months they had left for elsewhere. I have never in my life see a BMW or Benz salesperson make that sort of comment. They always had something in the lineup that excited somebody about the brand, even if they only ended up buying a lesser or different class of vehicle from the same brand.

I have to wonder if this is a side effect if growing inequality combined with auto loan debt and longer terms of new car financings.

I've read similar stories of M-B salespeople tired of dealing with GLA customers and BMW salespeople jaded about the X1, so I do think there's something to the idea that auto loan debt and longer term financing are driving the march downward for luxury brands.

 

[suxeL]

The reason I brought up the sales numbers, was I remember reading that Lexus as a whole has not turned a profit in many years (again this was not direct from Lexus Corp but rather unverified information). So if the path to profitability or long term sustainability is of utmost concern, decisions to cancel lines and make decision through the numbers will end up with various model lines being lost.

GS, GX seem the beasts to take that first cut.

 

[Tragic Bronson]

The reason I brought up the sales numbers, was I remember reading that Lexus as a whole has not turned a profit in many years (again this was not direct from Lexus Corp but rather unverified information). So if the path to profitability or long term sustainability is of utmost concern, decisions to cancel lines and make decision through the numbers will end up with various model lines being lost.

GS, GX seem the beasts to take that first cut.

That unverified information was from Jonny Lieberman in the post about the cancellation of the Land Cruiser. While it seems that many from Toyota moved from California to Texas, how many in the Lexus division stayed behind and perhaps went to other companies like the Koreans? Toyota VP and Lexus alum Brian Smith retired from the company, and is now COO at Hyundai.

 

[Bluesuprarcf52]

I hope my emoji doesn't hurt your post, but this explains my frustration with product planners at Lexus and likely executive management. Anything not an easy to develop FWD vehicle or Akio's sports car vision, is backburnered or cancelled. Hell, where are the all wheel drive GA-K sedans? They definitely have to be coming as I don't see what would prevent them.

He couldn't cancel the LS because it is the flagship and starter of the brand. I don't see how this benefits them with the lower volume Mirai, using a Lexus. All of a sudden, this March 2016 rendering makes sense. This was the final design for the next gen GS and possibly an early look at future Lexus models. I wonder if the LS+ used this design because the GS would no longer have it? Argh!!
View attachment 3511
View attachment 3512
View attachment 3518

What gets me, is that this rendering was done in the early months of 2016 when no one had a lick of an idea what was going on, except those with likely Lexus leaking out details of the Next Generation design.

It was so easy for anyone else to write off this rendering as nothing, but my information came from the same source as the Camry rendering, which was very accurate (outside of T-shaped upper grille). The same artist responsible for this Kodansha rendering in December 2015, saw Camry clay buck itself or CAD drawing for sure. Meaning the GS-F rendering was accurate and we just will never see it.

December 2015 XV70 Hybrid Rendering View attachment 3515
Actual XV70 Camry
View attachment 3514View attachment 3519
View attachment 3516View attachment 3517

They have spent the last 36 months reworking this car into the Mirai. I am so disappointed in this brand for the first time ever, not just annoyed, because their failure to execute the GS facelift properly is what resulted in abysmal 2016 sales.

The decision in the fall of 2016 to indefinitely halt the GS program, after they had already settled on a final design, judging by the date of launch targeted and some supplier information (JDM) was definitely influenced a large degree by active sales performance.

By October 2016, the 240/241B 2019 ES design was frozen and already being shown to Lexus personnel. The idea was to elevate the ES but I don't think it was ever engineered to replace the GS. Anything development wise post late 2016 for the ES, only marginally could have countered Lexus 300B cancellation.

Lexus you better bring that above rendering as next gen Lexus GS. Stop killing your brand and losing your customers to the competitors.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

RIP Lexus GS
1993-202*?
✝
​

Don't ask where I got this information, but if you want to know why, it's a combination of the ES becoming that much more capable of a car, newer (read: battery) technology that will make the ES become a better car overall (but won't be good as the GS), and finally Lexus whoring the ES and not giving the GS the love it deserves. When you take these three factors, the GS is bound to fade into irrelevance.

I won't deny the fact that it may make a beautiful return like a Phoenix rising from the ashes, but for the foreseeable future, the GS as we know of it will meet its end.

​

Mods: I suggest a crying thread for the GS.

 

[internalaudit]

Sounds like a GS BEV with torque vectoring will not be coming, haha.

May have to cram my family in a RC F BEV torque vectoring then or stick with Honda/ Acura and one of its BEV with electric SH-AWD

 

[maiaramdan]

Ironically in the same day you RIP the GS, Toyota may introduce the same next gen Mirai with Battery electric power as Tesla model S competitor next generation Prius !!!

By the way I love the TRD Pro Avalon that Toyota introduced in SEMA this year

2020 Toyota Avalon TRD Pro Concept Will Beat A Supercar Around Willow Springs | Carscoops

Toyota's Avalon TRD Pro Concept lapped California's Willow Springs track in 1 minute and 25.3 seconds

www.carscoops.com

This clearly indicates that Toyota will return back as the late 60s to early 90s with more agility and upscaled models by itself add that

Toyota Debuts Five 2020 Supra Tuning Concepts, Name Your Favorite | Carscoops

The 2019 SEMA Show is a Toyota Supra fest that's bound to inspire tuners for years to come

www.carscoops.com

and that

Toyota Teases GR Yaris Hot Hatch, Will Debut On November 17 | Carscoops

The hot Toyota GR Yaris could employ all-wheel drive as a connection to WRC

www.carscoops.com

And you will have a clear view where Toyota is heading

Now we need to ask ourselves
Where lexus is heading
As in this strategy adding that Mazda will be turned to near lux. Aka premium
So that will leave Lexus to be a niche upscale brand something like A.Marten or Porsche

 

[Will1991]

May have to cram my family in a RC F BEV torque vectoring then or stick with Honda/ Acura and one of its BEV with electric SH-AWD

I’m looking for a Toyota/Lexus as well but... Craming my family in a RC F (5.0V8) doesn’t sound bad at all

 

[internalaudit]

I’m looking for a Toyota/Lexus as well but... Craming my family in a RC F (5.0V8) doesn’t sound bad at all

I want a Lexus BEV Will. I'm too frugal to pay for premium gasoline here in Toronto, Canada , and it's likely even cheaper here than in Portugal (where I think you live).

Also, from all my limited readings the past few months, torque vectoring lend itself well to electric cars but for a Lexus, I'm even okay with a clutch / hydraulic (not really going to pretend I know the difference) like in the current TVD compared to two electric motors in the rear if it means legendary Lexus reliability.

I know you don't have much snow there but it just occurred to me that for BEVs with electric torque vectoring, stopping distance could be improved because the motors can provide negative torque. And we in cold climates know that AWD is only good for traction and moving a car forward, so it makes sense that if it spins the opposite way, then it will likely also be good in cutting the winter stopping distance.

Also, torque vectoring will shine when the wheels are traveling over surfaces with different mu (coefficient of friction or something) like when one side is hydroplanning lol.

 

[maiaramdan]

@internalaudit , keep in mind that there's a lot of talking that Toyota & Subaru are working together developing the next Subaru's Symmetrical AWD, and it may even appears in November 17th with the new generation Yaris GR

 

[ssun30]

Sorry if this makes you more upset about death of the GS. But in case you are wondering how a new GS hybrid with multi-stage would perform, here's a 0-100km/h video of the Crown 3.5 hybrid. Takes 4.73s which translates to ~4.5-4.6s for 0-60mph, and this is starting with ICE off. Note how quickly the car transitions from EV mode to hybrid mode during overtake tests. And it takes less than 200ms to ramp up from EV power to max hybrid power, amazing response (most modern turbocharged engines take 500-1000ms to spool up to max boost).

If you look at their channel you will find that the JZX100 Mark II posted an identical 4.73s. The JZX100 is still their fastest non-Lexus sedan after so many years and that 1JZ-GTE is still a beast!

Put the multi-stage on the IS and it will easily perform on par with a M340i or S4.


Here is a S200 Crown hybrid (basically the GS450h). Almost the same power-to-weight ratio as the S220 but it's over a second slower. The USDM GS450h averaged 5.8s in 0-60mph. You can see how long it takes for the hybrid system to ramp up to max power (over four seconds compared to almost instantly in the S220) in this video.

 

[internalaudit]

This multi stage hybrid is the same as on the LC500h?

 

[ssun30]

^^Yes it is

 

[Levi]

I am fine without next gen IS F, if they make an IS 500h. They better make it to compete with Tesla 3 and the Germans.

 

[mikeavelli]

Details Of Six New Toyota Models Including Next-Gen 86 Sports Car May Have Just Leaked

The next-generation Toyota 86 will allegedly get 255 horsepower and come next year, according to a leaked product plan that may have just revealed Toyota’s plans for the next two years.

jalopnik.com

A leaked doc says GS is coming sharing with the Murai sedan. Makes a ton of sense here and I think Lexus must have demanded a version of the car. Being LS based and RWD with maybe the same hydrogen power (I assume optional) would be amazing and make another nameplate for
The next GS F.

I’m very enthused right now

 

[maiaramdan]

So will the next GS get F version or not at all?

 

[Rob Grieveson]

Too long to wait both the GS and the IS need updating now not sometime in the future.