No Plans for Lexus Compact Crossover Smaller than NX?

[IS-SV]

Note: Mercedes has brought versions of A and B-classes to the US already (CLA, GLA, B-class electric, for example). Specifically the CLA and GLA have decent rates of sales, so they contribute important incremental sales in the US for Mercedes, of course they are not hitting the sales numbers of the larger-sized core product offerings in US.

Mercedes and BMW are early in the US for bringing premium smaller vehicles to market, but I think to be top tier sales leader this segment should be covered sooner than later here, especially since it's likely to grow with time. Yes, Europe is adopting these smaller SUV's early than US as expected.

Both Toyota and Lexus don't have the subcompact SUV slot covered in US yet, but my guess is they aren't telling us everything (about future plans)...

 

[mmcartalk]

Note: Mercedes has brought versions of A and B-classes to the US already (CLA, GLA, B-class electric, for example). Specifically the CLA and GLA have decent rates of sales, so they contribute important incremental sales in the US for Mercedes, of course they are not hitting the sales numbers of the larger-sized core product offerings in US.

Mercedes and BMW are early in the US for bringing premium smaller vehicles to market, but I think to be top tier sales leader this segment should be covered sooner than later here, especially since it's likely to grow with time. Yes, Europe is adopting these smaller SUV's early than US as expected.

Both Toyota and Lexus don't have the subcompact SUV slot covered in US yet, but my guess is they aren't telling us everything (about future plans)...

Yes, Steve, I'm aware of those importations. But the electric and fuel-cell versions seem to be mall niche markets for a few local areas at most...and the GLA and CLA are considered by most reviewers to be compact-sized, not subcompact. A true smaller-than-NX Lexus SUV (the thread topic) would be considered a subcompact, not a compact, in external dimensions, though it is true that the EPA officially rates vehicle size on interior volume, not exterior dimensions. I just don't see the M-B offerings as true competitors for a smaller-than-NX Lexus product. You may or may not agree (and, as always, I'll respect your opinion on that). Joe make a point, though, that in the Euro-markets, conditions may be different.

 

[IS-SV]

Yes, Steve, I'm aware of those importations. But the electric and fuel-cell versions seem to be mall niche markets for a few local areas at most...and the GLA and CLA are considered by most reviewers to be compact-sized, not subcompact. A true smaller-than-NX Lexus SUV (the thread topic) would be considered a subcompact, not a compact, in external dimensions, though it is true that the EPA officially rates vehicle size on interior volume, not exterior dimensions. I just don't see the M-B offerings as true competitors for a smaller-than-NX Lexus product. You may or may not agree (and, as always, I'll respect your opinion on that). Joe make a point, though, that in the Euro-markets, conditions may be different.

Yes, I hear what you are saying about EPA classifications, agreed those categories not telling the whole story for sure.

But the takeaway's here are:

. Regarding comment above "that's why Mercedes has not brought over their A and B-class", Mercedes has brought over versions of both A and B-class to the US in the form of CLA, GLA, and B-class electric already. Yes, B-class electric is a niche, but it's still a B-class. And electric cars in general are quickly moving from niche to becoming mainstream. We are seeing many in import-rich Silicon Valley but that's to be expected.

. And Lexus may need at some point need to address a smaller sized than NX. Mercedes and BMW have already entered premium US market with SUV offerings that are significantly smaller and more economical (important attribute today and in future, therefore awd GLA250 gets better mileage than awd Encore and awd NX for example) than Lexus NX. IMO opinion those smaller/cheaper offerings (GLA, X1) are getting incremental sales and not cannibalizing existing compact SUV sales for example.

. How small Lexus might go with a subcompact SUV is not clear, since they haven't announced any plans. So we don't know if MB or BMW offerings would compete with nonexistent "smaller-than-NX" offering at this point unfortunately. In fact, the original posting and article makes no mention of sizing specs, other than to say "smaller than NX". We do already see the actual sales traction that Mercedes has (and BMW at lower volume) in the smaller (smaller than NX) category of SUV's already.

 

[mmcartalk]

Yes, I hear what you are saying about EPA classifications, agreed those categories not telling the whole story for sure.

But the takeaway's here are:

. Regarding comment above "that's why Mercedes has not brought over their A and B-class", Mercedes has brought over versions of both A and B-class to the US in the form of CLA, GLA, and B-class electric already. Yes, B-class electric is a niche, but it's still a B-class. And electric cars in general are quickly moving from niche to becoming mainstream. We are seeing many in import-rich Silicon Valley but that's to be expected.

. And Lexus may need at some point need to address a smaller sized than NX. Mercedes and BMW have already entered premium US market with SUV offerings that are significantly smaller and more economical (important attribute today and in future, therefore awd GLA250 gets better mileage than awd Encore and awd NX for example) than Lexus NX. IMO opinion those smaller/cheaper offerings (GLA, X1) are getting incremental sales and not cannibalizing existing compact SUV sales for example.

. How small Lexus might go with a subcompact SUV is not clear, since they haven't announced any plans. So we don't know if MB or BMW offerings would compete with nonexistent "smaller-than-NX" offering at this point unfortunately. In fact, the original posting and article makes no mention of sizing specs, other than to say "smaller than NX". We do already see the actual sales traction that Mercedes has (and BMW at lower volume) in the smaller (smaller than NX) category of SUV's already.

You mentioned the Encore. I'm really surprised how well the Encore has sold. You're probably aware of its Opel/Vauxhall Mokka origins, so I won't go into that. But, given its awkward-looking stance and bob-tailed front/rear ends (both of, IMO, which look like that went halfway through a crusher LOL), combined with the wimpy underpowered 1.4L turbo with only 138 HP, and I just don't understand why so many buyers were attracted to it....especially with a Buick nameplate. True, the interior is plush, and noise level is low like other Buicks...I liked those features myself. But, even so, selling it as a Buick is one thing.......trying to sell it as a Cadillac (or a Tier-1 nameplate) would be something else. (But then, of course, I didn't think it would sell as a Buick either LOL)

 

[spwolf]

Dont expect Lexus officials to tell you to wait for upcoming baby NX based on new platform. Considering we already saw camo vehicles, as well as that Toyota already told us that their sub-rav4 vehicle is coming, it is safe to assume that we will have CT based baby SUV. Markets worldwide want this car, it is coming.

 

[mmcartalk]

Dont expect Lexus officials to tell you to wait for upcoming baby NX based on new platform. Considering we already saw camo vehicles, as well as that Toyota already told us that their sub-rav4 vehicle is coming, it is safe to assume that we will have CT based baby SUV. Markets worldwide want this car, it is coming.

Although one admittedly cannot rule out the possibility of what you are saying, the sub-RAV-4 SUV will probably be more intended as a competitor to the Honda HR-V/Nissan Juke/Fiat 500X/Jeep Renegade, than as a steppingstone to a Lexus version of it. Notice that, at least as of now, there don't seem to be any plans for an upmarket Acura version of the HR-V, though I understand that Infiniti may do a version of the Juke for non-American markets.

 

[IS-SV]

You mentioned the Encore. I'm really surprised how well the Encore has sold. You're probably aware of its Opel/Vauxhall Mokka origins, so I won't go into that. But, given its awkward-looking stance and bob-tailed front/rear ends (both of, IMO, which look like that went halfway through a crusher LOL), combined with the wimpy underpowered 1.4L turbo with only 138 HP, and I just don't understand why so many buyers were attracted to it....especially with a Buick nameplate. True, the interior is plush, and noise level is low like other Buicks...I liked those features myself. But, even so, selling it as a Buick is one thing.......trying to sell it as a Cadillac (or a Tier-1 nameplate) would be something else. (But then, of course, I didn't think it would sell as a Buick either LOL)

Yes, I did mention small and ugly wannabe premium Encore, around here it's popularity is mainly as a rental. It's main market is China, a very different and less mature/sophisticated automotive market when talking about mainstream vehicles.

The sub-NX-sized Mercedes GLA250 2.0Lturbo is quicker, gets better fuel economy and looks sleeker than Encore too, not that its saying much.

 

[Carmaker1]

Note: Mercedes has brought versions of A and B-classes to the US already (CLA, GLA, B-class electric, for example). Specifically the CLA and GLA have decent rates of sales, so they contribute important incremental sales in the US for Mercedes, of course they are not hitting the sales numbers of the larger-sized core product offerings in US.

Mercedes and BMW are early in the US for bringing premium smaller vehicles to market, but I think to be top tier sales leader this segment should be covered sooner than later here, especially since it's likely to grow with time. Yes, Europe is adopting these smaller SUV's early than US as expected.

Both Toyota and Lexus don't have the subcompact SUV slot covered in US yet, but my guess is they aren't telling us everything (about future plans)...

Dont expect Lexus officials to tell you to wait for upcoming baby NX based on new platform. Considering we already saw camo vehicles, as well as that Toyota already told us that their sub-rav4 vehicle is coming, it is safe to assume that we will have CT based baby SUV. Markets worldwide want this car, it is coming.

The fact that Lexus were testing raised CTs alongside crossovers, is telling enough. They are up to something, but won't admit it. Similar commentary was made against the NX in 2011 and 2012, but was proven to be incorrect. By the early half of 2012, designs were being chosen for the NX, all the while people were denying its existence.

 

[Joe]

The fact that Lexus were testing raised CTs alongside crossovers, is telling enough.

Could be, but is not telling enough as far as I am concerned. In that stage of development, I believe that existing Lexus and Toyota bodies are used in a mixed combination. The raised CT might as well be a dummy for a small Toyota SUV model (ref. C-HR concept), the same as a camouflaged Toyota RAV4 has been used as an early Lexus NX test body.
But then again, it's not impossible that a smaller Lexus SUV could be build on the same platform

 

[mmcartalk]

The fact that Lexus were testing raised CTs alongside crossovers, is telling enough. They are up to something, but won't admit it.

Could also be something for non-U.S.markets, where demand is often different from what it is here. Infiniti, for example, is supposedly (?) developing a version of the Juke that won't be sold in the U.S. One thing for sure in the auto business is that speculation (yes, myself included) never stops.

Similar commentary was made against the NX in 2011 and 2012, but was proven to be incorrect.

I can't speak to what you yourself heard back then. But, given that at or close to that time, Lincoln was developing the MKC, Audi the A3, and Mercedes the GLK, I personally don't remember much opposition to the NX. From what I remember, it was recognized by a number of people back then that Lexus would probably need to develop an SUV that size to keep up with future competition and satisfy customer demand. The necessity for a sub-NX SUV in the premium-nameplate range, while (admittedly) not completely absent, though, is less clear, given that many people flock to lower-priced brands like Subaru, Honda, and Nissan for vehicles in that size range.

By the early half of 2012, designs were being chosen for the NX, all the while people were denying its existence.

You mean there are actually people in the auto industry that lie? Oh my, how shocking.

(That was not meant to be a rude remark on my part, Carmaker1....and I appreciate your opinion and post). But my point is that from my experience over the years, the integrity, honesty, and even (sometimes) basic knowledge of auto marketers has not impressed me.

 

[spwolf]

Could be, but is not telling enough as far as I am concerned. In that stage of development, I believe that existing Lexus and Toyota bodies are used in a mixed combination. The raised CT might as well be a dummy for a small Toyota SUV model (ref. C-HR concept), the same as a camouflaged Toyota RAV4 has been used as an early Lexus NX test body.
But then again, it's not impossible that a smaller Lexus SUV could be build on the same platform

usually they test in Toyota vehicle... since CT is coming likely next year, this was probably based on next CT (raised/SUV one).

Small SUVs are all the rage in Europe right now, as well as other non-usa markets. There is absolutely no chance that Lexus wont be getting theirs.

 

[mmcartalk]

Small SUVs are all the rage in Europe right now, as well as other non-usa markets. There is absolutely no chance that Lexus wont be getting theirs.

Are you saying it's a slam-dunk case in the U.S. for a smaller-than-NX Lexus-brand SUV........or just referring to Europe?

 

[spwolf]

Are you saying it's a slam-dunk case in the U.S. for a smaller-than-NX Lexus-brand SUV........or just referring to Europe?

I am talking about worldwide, but if they can sell CT200h in US, rest assured this will be coming as well... It will easily do double the sales of CT200h.

 

[IS-SV]

^ Agreed smaller than NX is likely later in US. Not a matter of if, more about when IMHO .

BMW, Mercedes and Audi already have such (smaller than NX) offerings in US.

 

[IS-SV]

I drove a visiting friend's Benz CLA250 4matic (A class-derived fwd config crossover SUV) 25+ miles last Sunday, good fun in the twisties a mile from home.

BMW is now showing it's all new X1 (including new turbo4 engine) derived from Mini fwd platform. Should be big improvement over old X1.

Mercedes and BMW are well on their way in US in selling a decent "smaller than NX" compact SUV crossover. Incremental sales volume and impact on MPG fleet averages will likely be significant.

 

[mmcartalk]

Mercedes and BMW are well on their way in US in selling a decent "smaller than NX" compact SUV crossover. Incremental sales volume and impact on MPG fleet averages will likely be significant.

IMO, it's sometimes difficult to tell a small crossover from a small SUV...sometimes a vehicle is one or the other, sometimes both. Take the Subaru Crosstrek, for example. It's an AWD unibody car-based crossover, but IMO, it would be stretching the term somewhat to call it an SUV. The slightly larger Forester is maybe a little closer to what could be considered an SUV. Same with the Fiat 500X and Jeep Renegade,....both come from the same platform and mechanicals, but one is considered a crossover, one an SUV. That's one reason why, IMO, it difficult to predict what upmarket manufacturers could sell in this category as a sub-NX "SUV". It might not be an SUV as we know it....even crossover-based.

 

[IS-SV]

^ Sorry to hear of your difficulties "to tell" these variations of smaller than NX compact SUVs, not that it's important.

Most of the cheaper Subie, Fiat, Jeep discussion doesn't apply to Lexus fortunately.

Fortunately actual US Benz and BMW buyers aren't wasting effort on categorizing as they shop and buy a couple thousand of these each month, a sales rate that is likely to grow. No need to predict for Benz and BMW (the main competitors of Lexus), since actual modest sales traction/growth has been established for these "smaller than NX" products. And BMW is stepping up its game with all new (badly needed too) X1. The key is a good small SUV crossover product, that happens intentionally to be smaller than NX.

 

[mmcartalk]

^ Sorry to hear of your difficulties "to tell" these variations of smaller than NX compact SUVs, not that it's important.

I disagree. In the specific sense I was using them, it is significant from a potential marketing standpoint.

Most of the cheaper Subie, Fiat, Jeep discussion doesn't apply to Lexus fortunately.

I wasn't referring to them as a direct application to Lexus. I used them as examples of subcompact-sized crossovers and SUVs that could apply to any price class.

I do agree with you, however, on this: No sense re-hashing the same opinions over and over again on either of our parts. Time will tell what eventually ends up selling, under what nameplates, and at what price.

 

[IS-SV]

^ Yes, wasn't sure why you kept rehashing and replying to my post with trivia.

I simply reported on " smaller than NX" redesigned X1, noting that BMW and Benz are selling into this space successfully already.

 

[Carmaker1]

Could be, but is not telling enough as far as I am concerned. In that stage of development, I believe that existing Lexus and Toyota bodies are used in a mixed combination. The raised CT might as well be a dummy for a small Toyota SUV model (ref. C-HR concept), the same as a camouflaged Toyota RAV4 has been used as an early Lexus NX test body.
But then again, it's not impossible that a smaller Lexus SUV could be build on the same platform

The raised CT was a photo taken 2.5 years ago, so that is quite some time ago. Something C-HR related must be it. The dimensions of such a vehicle might've been set 2 years ago and the final freeze quite closely. That is 3 years though, which is a very long time for such a simple offering. Everyone called the NX, but I knew better and that only RAV4 mules concerned that programme.

Could also be something for non-U.S.markets, where demand is often different from what it is here. Infiniti, for example, is supposedly (?) developing a version of the Juke that won't be sold in the U.S. One thing for sure in the auto business is that speculation (yes, myself included) never stops.



I can't speak to what you yourself heard back then. But, given that at or close to that time, Lincoln was developing the MKC, Audi the A3, and Mercedes the GLK, I personally don't remember much opposition to the NX. From what I remember, it was recognized by a number of people back then that Lexus would probably need to develop an SUV that size to keep up with future competition and satisfy customer demand. The necessity for a sub-NX SUV in the premium-nameplate range, while (admittedly) not completely absent, though, is less clear, given that many people flock to lower-priced brands like Subaru, Honda, and Nissan for vehicles in that size range.

Infiniti already does have this...

Are you referring to the Audi Q3 and Mercedes GLA (not A3 and GLK)? As the latter was caught testing parallel to the NX mules and the Q3 was on the market I believe. Unless you are referring to when Lexus commenced AZ10 development in 2009? For such a small vehicle, Lexus took a long time to develop it. I think it was the first Lexus programme fully completed under Akio Toyoda (or maybe the RC?).

See below for my reply regarding the "similar comments in 2011-12".

You mean there are actually people in the auto industry that lie? Oh my, how shocking.

(That was not meant to be a rude remark on my part, Carmaker1....and I appreciate your opinion and post). But my point is that from my experience over the years, the integrity, honesty, and even (sometimes) basic knowledge of auto marketers has not impressed me.

Thank you, appreciate that. I think you know what I mean... On this site back in the spring of 2012, a man reported on the incoming LS changes being a MY2013 facelift and not an early MY2014 evolutionary redesign. He was proven to be correct 3-4 months later regarding the 4LS having a third iteration, but later found wrong on the RAV4 test vehicles NOT being the AZ10 Lexus (NX) in mule-form. The RAV4 on the right was an actual prototype, but the one on the left that looked too messy was obviously a mule of another New MC platform mate. Krew put his hand at it, but "experts" debunked this theory.

I was finishing up uni at the time, so I didn't like being made to feel stupid by a number of Toyota/Lexus personnel commenting in the same threads/articles. The NX design was already frozen by the time those shots first appeared in August-Sept. 2012, yet heavily debunked. Unfortunately for me, it took one full year to be proven correct with LF-NX concept and The Fast Lane spy video.

Regarding lies, I do empathize with them, but can also see right through their lies very easily. In my case, I just don't say anything on my own end. It is much easier for me to focus on "foreign" brands in my free time, that way I don't become unemployed and mired in legal battles from violating NDAs. That can be considered espionage in some cases.