Next-Generation Lexus CT to Debut in 2021?

[phoenixss]

Tesla is still young in the game, the overall philosophy is very attractive. A friend of mine owns a TM3 and he enjoys the updates where constant enhancements are made. Contrary to most if not all car manufacturers, like my RX, once you buy it live with the software and it’s bugs absolutely nil enhancements, pathetic and cheap.

 

[CRSKTN]

Tesla is still young in the game, the overall philosophy is very attractive. A friend of mine owns a TM3 and he enjoys the updates where constant enhancements are made. Contrary to most if not all car manufacturers, like my RX, once you buy it live with the software and it’s bugs absolutely nil enhancements, pathetic and cheap.

I love how nobody actually bothers to look into how terrible the ownership experience and customer service from Tesla actually is.

It's insane, it's like Tesla shuts off people's brains. Take the recent Taycan announcement, people writing it off like it isn't going to be worlds better than Tesla in every way that counts. You don't even see people mention the crap quality of Tesla interiors and sound systems when you're dropping 100k on a car, or how long it takes for new parts or repairs to get done. When I see companies charging these figures for their cars, it makes me wonder what else and how much Tesla is cutting corners on. It's not that "Tesla can offer all of this and more at $X", it's a question of "why aren't experience car makers making the same decisions as Tesla is in their implementation of electric cars", and frankly I trust companies like Porsche and Toyota way more than Tesla when it comes to responsibly developing a well rounded vehicle.

I couldn't imagine putting up with the Tesla ownership experience unless it was a second or third car.

I've test driven their cars, and honestly the whole thing feels like i'm signing up for a $100k+ beta testing program. Not to mention the stigma associated with Tesla drivers, and the types of people you attract when you drive one and stop somewhere.

I had the TM3 pre-ordered, but was so turned off by the god awful impression the S and X made on me during multiple test drives, combined with the horrific interior quality (seriously, it's absolutely insane to me that anyone would be happy with the discount parts bin interior. That steering wheel and the little roller balls look like complete trash.). How anyone could pay that sort of money and be happy with what they got is beyond me, but given the focus on tax credits and financing/lease deals, it's becoming obvious to me that most Tesla owners really aren't in a spot to be buying 6 figure cars responsibly, and they often have the unrefined taste/expectations to match. I wasn't aware that "Scandinavian styling" meant thoughtless, sparse details shoddily slapped together. Combine that with the arrogance of selling expensive options that there is no visibility to availability on, and the whole thing starts to reek.

It reminds me of kids who buy a game console or phone and then go around defending it to death because it's a big deal to them and is part of their identity.

 

[internalaudit]

Tesla is still young in the game, the overall philosophy is very attractive. A friend of mine owns a TM3 and he enjoys the updates where constant enhancements are made. Contrary to most if not all car manufacturers, like my RX, once you buy it live with the software and it’s bugs absolutely nil enhancements, pathetic and cheap.

I want Tesla to survive but when I posted something slightly negative on its own forum back in 2016, the moderator just removed it instead of refuting what I wrote. After that, I just perused TMC. Because TMC doesn't want to earn the ire of Tesla, look at the way its discussion forum is structured. There is no forum where people can start discussing the issues with their cars. There must be a reason why they are hiding the issues across the various subforums.

There have been some reports of rear drive unit failure and even for AWD, a post seemed to have confirmed that the car cannot be driven normally so that thing about redundancy is not factual, yet.

Latest discussions can be found here. 3k miles of driving. I know there's only a handful affected but I thought the drive unit should be so much more reliable than an ICE?

Model 3: Driving Dynamics

performance, drivetrain, traction/stability control, brakes, suspension, tires, safety

teslamotorsclub.com

What kind of upgrades do you need for your infotainment or display system? Does it ever get to the point that storage or memory slows down to a crawl? I would think every time a car is started, the system reboots afresh? I am not sure because our 16 RAV4H has crappy infotainment but we just use our smartphones for navigation and music (playlists / songs on my daughter or nephew's phones).

I also put in a reservation deposit for the TM3 but realized I might as well wait a few more years when more BEVs come to market, especially Lexus BEVs, and then decide because the gasoline I spend is at most $3k/year and deprecation on any new ICEV, PHEV or BEV will be a lot more, so might as well make do with the vehicles we have and then hopefully go upscale with a Lexus BEV eventually. I haven't seen a compelling enough BEV (reliability and performance) to merit having to dispose any of my aging ICEVs. My wife also needs a long enough driving range (220 km) and it make sense to wait until Toyota releases details on its solid state batteries next summer, before I even make any attempt to test drive BEVs. The battery technology will be the game changer going for BEVs and even if Toyota/Lexus are short on driving range, I don't mind because at least I know it will be built with really good quality and reliability, something I cannot say about a TM3 for now.

 

[CRSKTN]

Model 3: Driving Dynamics

performance, drivetrain, traction/stability control, brakes, suspension, tires, safety

teslamotorsclub.com

Holy god almighty, I had some idea of what Tesla diehards were like but that forum borders on cult-like.
I honestly believe there is no experience bad enough that could convince some of these guys that it's no better anywhere else.

 

[phoenixss]

I want Tesla to survive but when I posted something slightly negative on its own forum back in 2016, the moderator just removed it instead of refuting what I wrote. After that, I just perused TMC. Because TMC doesn't want to earn the ire of Tesla, look at the way its discussion forum is structured. There is no forum where people can start discussing the issues with their cars. There must be a reason why they are hiding the issues across the various subforums.

There have been some reports of rear drive unit failure and even for AWD, a post seemed to have confirmed that the car cannot be driven normally so that thing about redundancy is not factual, yet.

Latest discussions can be found here. 3k miles of driving. I know there's only a handful affected but I thought the drive unit should be so much more reliable than an ICE?

Model 3: Driving Dynamics

performance, drivetrain, traction/stability control, brakes, suspension, tires, safety

teslamotorsclub.com

What kind of upgrades do you need for your infotainment or display system? Does it ever get to the point that storage or memory slows down to a crawl? I would think every time a car is started, the system reboots afresh? I am not sure because our 16 RAV4H has crappy infotainment but we just use our smartphones for navigation and music (playlists / songs on my daughter or nephew's phones).

I also put in a reservation deposit for the TM3 but realized I might as well wait a few more years when more BEVs come to market, especially Lexus BEVs, and then decide because the gasoline I spend is at most $3k/year and deprecation on any new ICEV, PHEV or BEV will be a lot more, so might as well make do with the vehicles we have and then hopefully go upscale with a Lexus BEV eventually. I haven't seen a compelling enough BEV (reliability and performance) to merit having to dispose any of my aging ICEVs. My wife also needs a long enough driving range (220 km) and it make sense to wait until Toyota releases details on its solid state batteries next summer, before I even make any attempt to test drive BEVs. The battery technology will be the game changer going for BEVs and even if Toyota/Lexus are short on driving range, I don't mind because at least I know it will be built with really good quality and reliability, something I cannot say about a TM3 for now.

Just very crappy with iPhones, sometime calling Siri takes forever, I have to disconnect the phone and re-add it every now and then. On my 16 and 17 highlanders it was not very pleasant. I believe it was memory corruption I had to often remove and re-sync the iPhone. the RX is slightly better. But overall I'm talking about Tesla's ability to gather people comment and release an update that changes your experience. Of course easy to do when all you have is an iPad with software, however it does impact some functionality of the car based on comments from my friend.

 

[ssun30]

80% of my peers and colleagues who bought into the EV hype sold their EVs within two years of ownership. In my case I sold mine in just six months. It's really hard to overlook the negatives after the initial hype cools off. Those who would hold on to their Teslas (and as the primary vehicle) for the long term are real devotees with almost religious belief into Elon's cause.

 

[mikeavelli]

And that's not all. With Tesla, it's more like we will build them, and the buyers will come. Not sure if it is hubris or a portion of it.

For now that works because the TM3 is really the BEV with the longest driving, very good acceleration numbers, and great handling but I would prefer a more conventional dashboard setup where some functions are controlled via buttons, switches, toggle or stalks and others, through the touchscreen.

I was surprised that one very well demeanor-ed Canadian says he prefers the bare TM3 dash + 15" display over say the best Audi virtual cockpit with embedded display set up (if the latter were to be free of charge). He probably has to rationalize that he likes the interior too. The one good thing about Tesla is the display is probably run with a very high-end SOC unlike many car makers where the infotainment system could be laggy with not foreseeable upgrade but even my friend tells me that his display on his Model S has blanked out a couple of times already.

There's probably a reason why aircrafts and jets have a lot of gauges or displays and buttons. There's no way a single 15" screen is going to be easier to use for adjustments and what not when the car is in motion.

In addition, Tesla probably doesn't listen to focus groups or even heed current and future customer suggestions / wants because I did follow TMC for a year or so and none of what people wanted was put into the TM3 lol (better interior design and heated steering wheel).

Also the lack of ESA for the TM3 goes to show that Tesla has been hemorrhaging on repair costs under warranty and cannot afford to do so under an extended warranty for the TM3.

I also am confident it is much cheaper to make that bare bones interior with a large screen compared to a normal interior. Less parts, less everything. Owners seem to not mind it and many think its a positive selling point. Tesla did a good job really differentiating them from a normal ICE car even though they look like normal vehicles and not something like a Honda Clarity which looks like its been in an accident.

 

[wyvern]

80% of my peers and colleagues who bought into the EV hype sold their EVs within two years of ownership. In my case I sold mine in just six months. It's really hard to overlook the negatives after the initial hype cools off. Those who would hold on to their Teslas (and as the primary vehicle) for the long term are real devotees with almost religious belief into Elon's cause.

Out of curiosity, what do you think the negatives to EV ownership are?

 

[internalaudit]

I also am confident it is much cheaper to make that bare bones interior with a large screen compared to a normal interior. Less parts, less everything. Owners seem to not mind it and many think its a positive selling point. Tesla did a good job really differentiating them from a normal ICE car even though they look like normal vehicles and not something like a Honda Clarity which looks like its been in an accident.

I think you are right and even some newer BEVs are going for simplicity (aka cost savings). But even the interior / instrument layout on the ID3, though simple, looks far better than the one on the TM3. Heck even the steering wheel looks better with some of the controls embedded there.

The article gallery has a few photos of the interior.

VW ID 3 electric car bows at Frankfurt, heads for European deliveries next year

Volkswagen showed the ID 3 electric hatchback undisguised at Frankfurt. VW will deliver the first cars to customers by the middle of 2020.

www.greencarreports.com

 

[Ian Schmidt]

There's probably a reason why aircrafts and jets have a lot of gauges or displays and buttons. There's no way a single 15" screen is going to be easier to use for adjustments and what not when the car is in motion.

I saw a story a few weeks ago where the US Navy blamed several recent accidental ship collisions on touch controls; they are now ripping out the touch panels and putting back conventional displays and controls.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Regarding the "cult-like" stuff, there's a reason "E. Lon Hubbard" jokes are a thing. More than once I've seen people complain on social media about obviously unacceptable things like being delivered a dirty car with 2000 miles on it only to be jumped by a crowd of people accusing them of being paid by the oil companies. Not great for getting people on your side.

 

[internalaudit]

True. There's this fellow Canadian (close to retirement, who just bought a TM3 months ago) who told me even low income households should be able to afford a BEV if they reprioritize their needs and wants lol. I asked him why he didn't buy his Tesla Model S in 2011 when he could have also reprioritized his needs and wants. I don't think he responded to that part of my question but I have since put him on ignore for being a fanatic.

Outside of Tesla fanboys, I've also encountered a few EV fanboys on one Canadian forum, whose reaction to my posts about postponing my BEV purchase as being borderline criminal. One even suggested they should have a residential enclave built only for EV drivers lol. I told them, I'm waiting for the next generation BEV batteries and if that doesn't come to fruition in a few years' time, then I can cherry pick used BEVs and still be far ahead because depreciation on any new BEV > my $2,500-3,000 CAD annual gasoline expenditures. They just can't believe that what I'm telling them make sense. Why rush when I have five more payments on the third car and the rest are fully paid for and don't require expensive upkeep (besides gasoline)?

Owning a 16 RAV4H (handling does kinda suck lol), this is my first Toyota. My dad had a '79 Corolla as his first car and also got a 94 Corolla for my sister. So far so good and with the TNGA platform, Toyota has upped the handling/dynamics of its new cars so I don't mind waiting for the solid state battery announcement next summer or even Toyota/Lexus BEVs coming to market, as long as our Honda's ($0 and $7-8k CAD) and Toyota are still chugging along.

I judge people by the way they treat other people, not by the car they drive. Lots of this EV fanatics are something. They attack posts as if I did something atrocious lol when I am just holding on to my ICEVs. I recycle properly and treat most people with respect so in my books, I think I'm doing a lot more for the environment/society even if my cars emit some particulates/carbon dioxide.

 

[Will1991]

I’m in a similar situation as some of you, I want to go full BEV but I’m waiting from a Toyota product...

I personally love how Tesla is upping the EV game for everyone and really admire what they can do (SUC networks, amazing energy efficiency and performance), but... They are clearly lacking build quality, even with TM3 every time I tried to close the front door on a showroom car it seemed something broken, it’s even worse than my Avensis or my sister Auris!

Was really looking forward for the Model 3 but it fell short of what the internet made of it... Was really close to put down a deposit and just buy one...

As I’ve said before, I’m really hoping Toyota’s BEV’s are proper ones. And I’m really a Toyota fanboy so I’m still waiting

Also, right now I would buy a Prime over a Leaf/Zoe in a heart beat.

 

[ssun30]

Out of curiosity, what do you think the negatives to EV ownership are?

Severe range degradation in winter and very fast depreciation are the primary reasons.