New-car time (maybe). I've got my top 3 choices...but your opinions?

[mmcartalk]

Well, it's that time again.....I usually get a new car every 4-7 years (5-6 on the average)...and my present car (which has been excellent, BTW) is coming up on 5 years old. For my purposes, I find that a trade (or private-sell) during that time period is usually a good compromise between mileage, depreciation, reliability, need for repairs, vehicle-wear, and property-tax (we're taxed, in my county, on part of a car's assessed-value each year, but that's because there are no local county income-taxes in the state...it's all real-estate or property tax).


Anyhow, I have gotten superlative service from my local Buick dealer, my regular service-advisor, and Buick itself. My first instinct, for several reasons, is another Buick sedan...but the Verano is not being replaced in the American market, and the new Regal coming this fall may not even have a sedan version in the American market (Buick is still mum on that...maybe hatchback/wagon only)?

Which leaves the new-for-2017 Lacrosse, which, IMO, is not as well-built as the smaller, German / Opel-derived Verano or Regal, but is significantly more comfortable-riding, especially with the base 18" wheels/tires/suspension (comfort is important to me, as my back and knees, though still functioning enough to get mo around, are not what they once were). The Lacrosse, for my purposes (as with the sister Chevy Impala) drives extremely well, combining comfort with a relatively decent level of handling not possible on the old, sponge/wallow-suspension of old-time Buicks. But the Lacrosse has two (IMO) annoying things....an E-shifter that is conducing and awkward to use for some functions (on test-drives, I'm getting used to the Park/Drive/Reverse functions, which are used most of the time, but Neutral and in and out of manual/sport-mode is very tricky), and a non-defeatable idle-stop program for the engine. I'm generally not a fan of those systems, even though they do save some gas....they can also put a lot of extra wear on the starter in heavy traffic. Other than that, though, driving the Lacrosse, to me, is a delight....it recalls my days in college, back in the early 70s, when I had a big (used) Buick, and loved it. Buick, though, built junk-quality vehicles for so long, after that, that I could not seriously consider one for almost 40 years.....until the Verano debuted.

But, of course, the Lacrosse also has what IMO are some several fine competitors, and there are also several of them on my shopping-list. I'm also seriously considering the Lincoln MKZ (#2 on my list), which, for the 2017 facelift this year, has a dynamite-looking Continental front end this year and a much-improved trim/control-layout inside. The MKZ's driving dynamics and road manners are more or less the same as the Lacrosse's...not exactly, but close. I've never owned a Ford/lincoln product before, though I personally know the General Manager of the Lincoln shop I'd be dealing with....he was once a Lexus salesperson, and sold me my yellow IS300 some 15-16 years ago (he still remembers me). The MKZ, like most recent Lincolns, also has easy-to-use, no-nonsense shift-buttons for the transmission, which, IMO, is a much better design than the Lacrosse's finicky E-shifter. But the MKZ, like the Lacrosse, doesn't seem to use quite as good materials/hardware, or have the same assembly-quality, as the German-derived Buick Verano or Regal.

I also like the Lexus ES350, (#3 on my list). It, of course, offers the traditional Lexus reliability, precision-assembly, and superlative fit/finish. It rides smoothly by today's standards (though not quite as silky as in past versions), has en exquisite-feeling wood steering wheel that both the Lacrosse and MKZ lack, and a reasonably easy to use shifter, though I don't like the zig-zags on the lever. (It would, of course, also make me a Lexus owner (again), like many of you guys here on the forum. But the ES also has a couple of annoyances......what IMO are cheap lightweight materials for interior trim, hardware, and door-solidness, especially compared to past versions.

#4 and #5 on my list is the Kia Cadenza and Genesis G80 AWD (No RWDs for me any more....I had enough of those in the winter LOL). The Cadenza's attributes are excellent assembly quality, good materials/hardware, one of the longest warranties in the business, and excellent dealer service if I buy or lease it from the same local dealer my brother did with his former Soul and present Sportage (the owner of that dealership, which also sells Volvos, is a Member of Congress, representing that voting-District, so, of course, he has an image to keep up as well). The G80 is one heck of a nice machine (as nice or nicer, in a number of ways, than the others I've mentioned here), but would probably be expensive in AWD format, and doesn't come in a less-expensive FWD version.....only RWD.


There are other choices, too, in that range, for that type of nice cushy, mid-to-full-size sedan (Impala, Avalon, Azera, Taurus, Volvo S90, Audi A4/A6, Mercedes C/E-class, BMW 3/5series, Infiniti Q50/Q70....but, for my purposes, right now, I like the Lacrosse, MKZ, and ES350 the best.....except for the different shifters, on the road, they are almost like three peas in a pod. Since I consider you guys on the forum my colleagues (and even personal friends, in some cases), I'd like to get your input and your ideas, in case I forgot something. I know that many of you are partial to Lexus products (which, of course, is understandable in a Lexus forum). But I can also see that most of you, like me, are car-buffs, able to think and rationalize in an independent manner, can come up with objective opinions, and won't necessarily let personal preferences dictate your honest views of other vehicles.


BUICK LACROSSE (all-new for 2017)

Plusses: Excellent dealer service, semi-traditonal Buick ride/quietness (with the (18", not 20" wheels), increasing Buick reputation for reliability, better build-quality than previous version (but not as good as Verano), rich wood or wood-tone trim inside, semi-cushy seat (not quite as cushy as the Verano's), complete set of engine gauges instead of idot-lights, superb fit/finish, AWD available on top versions, luxury-car-grade 6/70 and 4/50 warranty.

Minuses: Awkward E-shifter (although it does automatically go into Park when shut off and the doors are opened, a nice feature), non-defeatable engine idle-stop system, cheap-looking 4-spoke steering wheel and stalks, sophisticated Hi-per strut suspension only available with the stiff 20" wheels/tires.



LINCOLN MKZ (current-generation, face-lifted for 2017):

Plusses: Push-button-transmission shifter on the dash (IMO) easier and more convienent to
use than the shifters in either the ES or LaCrosse, Dynamite-looking Continental front-end styling, good noise-isolation and softish ride on base-level tires, nice color choice, generally nice-looking interior trim, new knobs this year for volume and climate-control much better then previous finger/sensor-slides, AWD available even with base engine.

Minuses: Sold and serviced out of bread-and-butter Ford shops, looser assembly quality not quite up to Buick or Lexus standards, 2.0L turbo four base engine, though torquey, not up to luxury-car standards, some interior hardware cheaply done, large awkward-looking C-pillars impede some visibility, no N/A V6...one has to move up to the grossly overpowered 400 HP TT V6 and AWD.





Lexus ES350 (last of current-generation 2017 version...a new one is coming next year)

Plusses: Industry-benchmark fit/finish, precision assembly at the plant, top-notch reliability, Interior room/comfort, quiet and smooth ride (though not as silky as with past versions), gem-like wood steering wheel, low depreciation, not-too-garish Spindle-Grille compared to other Lexus models.

(Also, it would again make me a Lexus owner like a lot of you members LOL)

Minuses: Well-fitted but thin, tinny-feeling doors/trunk-lid/sheet metal, some cost-cutting inside with plastic trim-parts, annoying zig-zag-pattern shifter (but better than the E-shifter in the LaCrosse), suspension nice but not as soft as on previous versions (I like a soft ride).


Thanks ahead for your input.

MM

 

[RAL]

IMHO ... it will be well worth your wait for the 2018 ES! ... for so many reasons you already know ... And it will be a pleasure to welcome you to the Lexus family for keeps!

 

[Brooks2IS]

I'm a big fan of this segment of vehicles. For the most part, they offer unparalleled levels of comfort for the money. That being said, I do have a few opinions...

1) The LaCrosse--Much like yourself, I am a fan of many of Buick's latest products. I wanted to be impressed by the new LaCrosse--supple leather interior, modern tech (Apple CarPlay etc), comfortable ride and stylish. However, I think the LaCrosse falls victim to traditional GM being traditional GM. Just the other weekend I was poking around in an unlocked 2017 LaCrosse at a local GM dealer while they were closed on a Sunday. The LaCrosse greeted me with rough plastic shavings around the door map pockets, a flimsy (almost broken feeling) turn indicator, and swaths of rough, grainy, cheap plastic. Not to mention, I think it's a terrible value for the sticker price. Granted, GM typically discounts vehicles heavily, but Buick makes you option up a fully loaded car for many of the same features standard on the ES350, for example. (Sunroof, Lane Keep Assist, Forward Collision, etc).

To sum up: A car with much promise that leaves a lot to be desired IMO.

2) The MKZ-- I wish I could offer more advice on the MKZ, but unfortunately we don't have a Lincoln dealer and I don't think I've been in a current gen MKZ or have even seen the refresh model. However, I did have a friend with a 2014 Fusion Titanium with the 2.0 EcoBoost that actually had to be lemon lawed. Just a downright terrible vehicle that was in the shop more than he had it, for everything from quality control problems (exterior panels falling off) to technological issues with MyFord Touch, though I've heard SYNC 3 has rectified those.

3) The ES350-- This probably will come as no surprise, but it's the one I'd get. I think you'll get a great deal on a 2017 being that a new model is coming out. For my personal preferences, the ES is the best all-around car.

Best of luck.

 

[mmcartalk]

I'm a big fan of this segment of vehicles. For the most part, they offer unparalleled levels of comfort for the money. That being said, I do have a few opinions...

1) The LaCrosse--Much like yourself, I am a fan of many of Buick's latest products. I wanted to be impressed by the new LaCrosse--supple leather interior, modern tech (Apple CarPlay etc), comfortable ride and stylish. However, I think the LaCrosse falls victim to traditional GM being traditional GM. Just the other weekend I was poking around in an unlocked 2017 LaCrosse at a local GM dealer while they were closed on a Sunday. The LaCrosse greeted me with rough plastic shavings around the door map pockets, a flimsy (almost broken feeling) turn indicator, and swaths of rough, grainy, cheap plastic. Not to mention, I think it's a terrible value for the sticker price. Granted, GM typically discounts vehicles heavily, but Buick makes you option up a fully loaded car for many of the same features standard on the ES350, for example. (Sunroof, Lane Keep Assist, Forward Collision, etc).

To sum up: A car with much promise that leaves a lot to be desired IMO.

2) The MKZ-- I wish I could offer more advice on the MKZ, but unfortunately we don't have a Lincoln dealer and I don't think I've been in a current gen MKZ or have even seen the refresh model. However, I did have a friend with a 2014 Fusion Titanium with the 2.0 EcoBoost that actually had to be lemon lawed. Just a downright terrible vehicle that was in the shop more than he had it, for everything from quality control problems (exterior panels falling off) to technological issues with MyFord Touch, though I've heard SYNC 3 has rectified those.

3) The ES350-- This probably will come as no surprise, but it's the one I'd get. I think you'll get a great deal on a 2017 being that a new model is coming out. For my personal preferences, the ES is the best all-around car.

Best of luck.

Thanks for the input, Brooks. On the Lacrosse, I'd probably be looking at a base or lower-line version (don't want the 20" rubber-band tires or a lot of options/equipment...I like things simple).. That would temper the sticker-price issue. Agreed that the MKZ is (seemingly) not built as well as the others....it has a looser feel to the doors and hardware/trim, but I like its simple shifter. Same with the MKZ as the Lacrosse....I'd want a base model, few options, and soft suspension/tires. Agreed that the ES is probably the choice for long-term reliability, but I am not impressed with the interior materials (except for the superb wood steering wheel), the closest dealership (I got much better dealer-service as a Buick owner than I did when I had my Lexus IS300, and that Lexus dealership still has the same management), and the ride comfort, while good, IMO was not quite up to the level of the Lacrosse. Many ES models, though, come with standard Michelin all-season tires., a plus....the Lacrosse typically has Continental Contipros, which are almost as good.

I'm also going to check out the latest G80...which I was very impressed with in the previous Hyundai Genesis version (it is supposedly the same car now, with a different badge on it). With the G80, though, the extra-cost AWD is a must....no RWD for me anymore.

 

[mmcartalk]

Checked out a fourth option today...the G80 3.8L AWD. (the former Hyundai Genesis). Superb build quality and fit/finish.....as good or better than the ES (though the ES might have a slightly better paint job), and definitely better than the Lacrosse or MKZ. Also, the G80 has the longest warranty and the easiest-to-use shifter. But the G80's ride comfort, even in Normal mode (there is no Comfort mode, only Eco/Normal/Sport) wasn't quite up to the Lacrosse.....Hyundai insists on using 18" or 19" 40 or 45-series tires, where the Lacrosse with 18" wheels has 50s. And I didn't care for the G80's front end and that large Audi-style grille. The Lacrosse looks much better up front with the smaller grille and that nice tricolor Buick emblem.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I read this thread as "I dare you to talk me out of the Buick" so lemme put on my car guy hat and let's go.

Bottom line first: if I were shopping in that segment and had to buy now I'd go with either the ES or the Cadenza. I like the looks and the driving dynamics of the outgoing ES a lot, but the Kia also looks good and checks even more tech boxes than the Lexus (CarPlay and Android Auto) so if it drives even close to as well as the ES I'd likely put it over the top.

On the Lacrosse I love the styling, but the idle-stop, the weird shifter, and the fact that it's a first-year Detroit model all would put me off. For the MKZ the front end is magnificent, but I don't like the interior at all, and quality/reliability have been issues with Ford (they just announced a big recall on the F-250 today, actually). And the Genesis styling still feels like a pastiche of 3 or 4 better-looking cars, although it's improving.

That all said, if you have the option of waiting another year, I'd ultimately recommend that the most. You'll be able to get data on if the Lacrosse is a worthy successor to your Verano (and maybe the General will fix the shifter), the Regal situation will be solidified, and there'll be a next-gen ES to check out.

 

[Gecko]

Hard decision here - the MKZ and ES are older and soon to be replaced, and I was also not impressed with the interior of the LaCrosse.

If it was me, I'd probably wait for a 2018 Camry XLE Hybrid... I think that's going to be a really nice car with similar levels of equipment and even more technology. Plus smoother ride and wonderful MPG.

 

[mmcartalk]

I read this thread as "I dare you to talk me out of the Buick" so lemme put on my car guy hat and let's go.

No, Ian, that was definitely not my intention. I may be a lot of things, but arrogant is not one of them. You can put the hat on and talk cars with me anytime you want.

Bottom line first: if I were shopping in that segment and had to buy now I'd go with either the ES or the Cadenza. I like the looks and the driving dynamics of the outgoing ES a lot, but the Kia also looks good and checks even more tech boxes than the Lexus (CarPlay and Android Auto) so if it drives even close to as well as the ES I'd likely put it over the top.

Hard to beat the ES reliability, paint job, and general fit/finish, but, except for the jewel-like wood steering wheel, the interior materials, IMO, just look and feel cheap. Compared to it, the G80 feels tank-solid side and out....and the doors shut with a solid heavy thud. Check one out for yourself at the nearest Hyundai/Genesis shop (most Hyundai shops handle the G80, but not necessary the G90, which is only handled at certain ones)....and I think you will see what I mean,

On the Lacrosse I love the styling, but the idle-stop, the weird shifter, and the fact that it's a first-year Detroit model all would put me off.

That all said, if you have the option of waiting another year, I'd ultimately recommend that the most. You'll be able to get data on if the Lacrosse is a worthy successor to your Verano (and maybe the General will fix the shifter), the Regal situation will be solidified.

Although it is still wise to wait and not buy the first models off the line in the first-model-year production, the classic first-year Detroit lemons were more a thing of the past than today...especially with GM, more so than with less-reliable Ford or Chrysler. The LaCrosse has been in production now for a reasonable amount of time, though not yet for a full year. My 2012 Verano was a first-year design in the American market (though it had been previously sold in Europe as the Opel Astra)....and it has been one of the most reliable cars I have ever owned....actually more reliable than my former Lexus IS300. I'd buy another one in a heartbeat, though it will no longer be offered in the American market, and I'd like something with a little more traditionally Buick size and smooth ride. As for next year, I already know some of the changes the LaCrosse will get...among them an all-new GM 9-speed automatic....the 8-speed used this year may be actually be less of a risky buy. You have a point, though, with the Regal sedan....we'll have to wait and see. But I like the way the Lacrosse rides.....with its standard 18" tires and suspension, not the unacceptably stiff 20" rubber and High-Per-strut suspension option. In fact, the salesman told me it is difficult to sell the LaCrosses with the 20" wheels......nobody wants them.

For the MKZ the front end is magnificent, but I don't like the interior at all, and quality/reliability have been issues with Ford (they just announced a big recall on the F-250 today, actually). And the Genesis styling still feels like a pastiche of 3 or 4 better-looking cars, although it's improving.

The MKZ is also built in Mexico (perhaps one reason for its questionable assembly quality), and, while that alone is not necessarily a deal-breaker for me (it has good 6/70 and 4/50 warranties for any problems), we've gotten to the point, in the globalization of the auto industry, where I think it is becoming more and more of a good idea to support American factories and labor. Not only that, but if Trump actually gets the 35% tariff he wants on vehicles that are sold here in America but not built here (especially from American-nameplate manufacturers like Ford), prices could jump dramatically. Call it protectionism if you want, but that is what we may be facing.

If you like the MKZ's (new for 2017) front end, you can obviously thank the Continental for it. In fact, except for the door-handles, IMO it is difficult to tell the two of them apart forward of the rear C-pillars.

MKZ:

Continental:

 

[mikeavelli]

Mike, curious why no SUV is on your radar?

 

[mmcartalk]

Hard decision here - the MKZ and ES are older and soon to be replaced, and I was also not impressed with the interior of the LaCrosse.

Thanks for the input. Yes, it is a tough decision. These are all fine cars in one way or another. And the G80, Impala, Cadenza, and Avalon just make it that much tougher (though the Avalon, IMO, seems cheaply-built inside, with thin lightweight materials).

If it was me, I'd probably wait for a 2018 Camry XLE Hybrid... I think that's going to be a really nice car with similar levels of equipment and even more technology. Plus smoother ride and wonderful MPG.

Interesting suggestion, though I suspect that we'll see a lot of the new Camry's advances in the new ES debuting next year.

Three things, though, attract me to the Lacrosse, despite its ****ed-up shifter and non-defeatable idle-stop. First, the superlative service and treatment I have gotten from both Buick and my local dealership from the Verano ownership. Second, I've wanted another big Buick ever since I was in college (when I had my big Electra), but the quality of American-designed Buicks tanked in the early-mid 70s and stayed that way for 40 years. Finally, for 2017, we have a big (or flagship) Buick that, like the latest Impala, seems reasonably well-built, though not quite the Rock-of-Gibraltar solidness of the Genesis G80. Third, I thought the Lacrosse (with 18" wheels and base suspension) had the best ride, by a narrow margin, of any of the cars I sampled.

 

[mmcartalk]

Mike, curious why no SUV is on your radar?

A valid question. Several points. First, being retired, I generally don't drive much in snow anymore, except on rare occasions on Sundays if necessary...though I still want FWD or AWD for the occasions that I need do. And I usually don't need the extra ground-clearance any more for deep snow.....many places here in the D.C. area shut down during blizzards and deep snow. Second, I (usually) don't need the extra cargo-space, and if I do have to carry a piece of furniture (I sometimes buy used furniture cheap from the thrift store LOL), my brother will give me a hand with his Kia Sportage SUV if needed (he's only glad to...I helped him shop for it and buy it). He used it to take me to the hospital several times (in the roomy back seat) when I had that bad knee injury last summer. Third, I think that sedans, in general, still ride better than SUVs, though there is no question that many SUVs today are not the Bronco-busters to your kidneys that they once were (in fact, some of them, like the mid-sized Kia Sorento and the new Lexus RX, are hard to tell from sedans on the road). Fourth, my knees have healed to the point where it is not so hard to get in and out of lower-slung sedans. I probably won't need that left-knee replacement after all, Praise God...I'm able, at least for now, to function more or less normally on it without pain, despite its cartilage-loss, though I can't do strenuous physical activity with it except for swimming. (That's not the knee I injured and had the operation on last summer, but the other, arthritis-affected one). Fifth, you may laugh at this (but go ahead if it is your honest opinion)..but I've always had a soft spot in my heart for big Buick sedans ever since I was a teen-ager (I had a used big Buick in college and loved it...couldn't afford a new one at the time). Then Buick quality tanked in the 1970s, and basically stayed that way for 40 years, until the reliable, Opel-based Buicks were introduced in the last 5-6 years or so (Verano, Regal, Encore, Cascada). Now, finally, for 2017, we have a big American-designed Buick (Lacrosse) sedan that seems reasonably well-built, though not to the general level of the Genesis G80 or the reliability level of the ES350. However, the Lacrosse's E-shifter and non-defeatable idle-stop system, IMO, are both mistakes.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I totally get you on the traditional Buick size and ride. One reason I ended up in the LS is that it's similar in feel to the Detroit big iron I grew up with (I've changed drum brakes and set distributor timings), but performs better on basically every possible axis. And the domestics had no worthwhile answer for that segment in 2004 when I got my first LS. The only thing in the vicinity was probably the Caddy DTS, and no thanks.

 

[mmcartalk]

I totally get you on the traditional Buick size and ride. One reason I ended up in the LS is that it's similar in feel to the Detroit big iron I grew up with (I've changed drum brakes and set distributor timings), but performs better on basically every possible axis. And the domestics had no worthwhile answer for that segment in 2004 when I got my first LS. The only thing in the vicinity was probably the Caddy DTS, and no thanks.

Yeah...I like the LS myself, and could afford one if I really wanted one (standard non-F-Sport versions, along with the Mercedes S550, probably set the industry standard among mass-production vehicles for overall cocoon-like isolation). But, like the new Continental, it is a stretch to try and fit one easily into my condo parking spaces.....and, of course, into standard-size spaces at malls, with careless door-openers on either side of you.

 

[mmcartalk]

I spent some time this evening getting insurance quotes from my company, and, of the four primary choices (Lacrosse, MKZ, G80, and ES350), the LaCrosse, interestingly, was far and way the cheapest....for me, at $400 for a 6-month policy. The MKZ and G80 are both just above $600, and the ES at $490. That's keeping the same policy-limits as my Verano. The Lacrosse, brand-new, seems a bargain to insure ....it's only a couple of dollars more each term than than my present 5-year-old Verano. I suspect that is because of the Lacrosse's basic group of older, conservative, non-aggressive drivers. But it doesn't explain why the MKZ and G80, which is driven by a (roughly) equal group of non-aggessive drivers, is so much more.....perhaps the cost of Lincoln and Genesis parts and repair?

Safety-ratings/crash-tests, actual accident and medical costs, location of the insured vehicle, and how likely it is to get stolen are probably other factors.

Where I WILL be paying substantially more, though, no matter which one of the four I choose, is the yearly Personal-Property Tax charged by counties in the State of Virginia. The PP tax is similar to real-estate taxes one pays on their home and lot.....it's assessed on the yearly Blue-Book value of the car (or cars, if more than one) as of January 1 of the year, pro-rated to the date of sale. We have that tax in Virginia because the State Constitution forbids local county income-taxes, and the car tax, real-estate tax, and local sales-taxes make up for the money that the localities can't take directly out of your salary. The flip-side, of course, is that the car-tax, like real-estate taxes, is deductible on the Federal return...so you get at least part of it back in tax-refunds.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

But, like the new Continental, it is a stretch to try and fit one easily into my condo parking spaces.....and, of course, into standard-size spaces at malls, with careless door-openers on either side of you.

The width hasn't been as much of a problem for parking as you might think; with the rebirth of the SUV craze the height is actually the problem. Even so, the radar parking assists make it relatively easy to safely get in or out of almost any spot. I am concerned that the added length of the 5th-gen will be more problematic for that, but we'll see when I can actually test drive one.

 

[krew]

Lots of good points here -- crazy just how difficult it is to choose a vehicle these days. As for your picks @mmcartalk, this is what I'm thinking:

• Buick: First year of a GM product, no thanks.
• Lincoln: I've warmed on these, but it's such a weird brand and that confusion would get to me.
• Lexus: Before the SUV boom, I have gone on record saying the ES is the perfect vehicle for 99% of the population. There's just no beating it for the kind of driving you seem to do.

What can I say -- I've been writing about Lexus for the past ten years, you know what my vote is.

 

[mmcartalk]

Lots of good points here -- crazy just how difficult it is to choose a vehicle these days. As for your picks @mmcartalk, this is what I'm thinking:

• Buick: First year of a GM product, no thanks.
• Lincoln: I've warmed on these, but it's such a weird brand and that confusion would get to me.
• Lexus: Before the SUV boom, I have gone on record saying the ES is the perfect vehicle for 99% of the population. There's just no beating it for the kind of driving you seem to do.

What can I say -- I've been writing about Lexus for the past ten years, you know what my vote is.

Thanks for your input. I respect your judgement, and know where you are coming from. I'll agree that the ES is a good bet, reliability-wise...but other factors are involved than just that. My Buick/Chevy/GMC shop gave me a lot better customer service than the Lexus shop did when I owned my IS. Buick reliably, lately, according to Consumer Reports, has trailed only that of Toyota and Lexus (and Audi, in some cases)....a significant achievement, although the most reliable Buicks have been the smaller Opel-rebadges, more so than the larger American-designed ones. The new Lacrosse has been in production now since last summer, which would normally be time to catch the worst of any new problems...what you often don't want to do is buy an all-new American-designed model in its first few months of production. And, the ES is indeed close to the top on my pick-list...currently #3, behind the LaCrosse and G80. And the Lacrosse is not perfect....I don't like the shifter or idle-stop system. But no car is prefect......one is going to find plusses and minuses with almost anything he or she chooses.

Lincoln: I've warmed on these, but it's such a weird brand and that confusion would get to me.

Lincoln is doing great in some areas, but needs to get its act together on quality control at the assembly plants. By modern standards, their products (maybe the Continental excepted) seem loosely-built...I have not been terribly impressed with their general solidness. They are generally a cut behind GM, and maybe two cuts behind Genesis in that area. Still, the MKZ is a nice enough car that I'd probably be happy with it as daily-driver (it drives like the ES in a number of ways). That's why the MKZ is probably #4 on my list.

 

[krew]

The new Lacrosse has been in production now since last summer, which would normally be time to catch the worst of any new problems...what you often don't want to do is buy an all-new American-designed model in its first few months of production. And, the ES is indeed close to the top on my pick-list...currently #3, behind the LaCrosse and G80.

Oh, I thought you had written the G80 off. From your shortlist, that would be a very hard car to resist -- the value is off-the-charts and Hyundai has a very clear vision.

 

[mmcartalk]

Oh, I thought you had written the G80 off. From your shortlist, that would be a very hard car to resist -- the value is off-the-charts and Hyundai has a very clear vision.

Yeah....sorry if I didn't mention that earlier. I checked out the G80 and was impressed enough with it to eclipse the MKZ and (now) make it the #2 spot. It is built better than any of the others.....including the ES, IMO (I know you may not agree with it having better materials than the ES, but I found the G80 very impressive). And it has a nice conventional no-nonsense shifter.

 

[mmcartalk]

Took a 2017 ES350 out for a little test-drive today (didn't bother to extensively write it up, since I'm doing this for my own shopping now, not for others, or on request). Drove a little nicer than the last one I had sampled, which was on a very cold winter day when the rubber in the tires were hard and the insulation less-effective. Today's 80-degree temperatures and strong sunlight made for much softer rubber and a pretty nice ride over bumps....about the equal of the Lacrosse's ride. Generally well-assembled, and with good fit/finish, a jewel-like polished wood steeringwheel, and good noise isolation....warm days and sunlight also expand the weatherstripping/insulation pieces and make them more effective. A much better shifter than the Lacrosse, despite having an (IMO) awkward zig-zag pattern and a confusing manual-shift display. And the ES promises better long-term reliability than a Lacrosse. But the interior, despite the nice assembly-quality, has a number of cheap, so-so, thin plastic parts, an awkward-to-use Mouse-Controller on the console, a bottom seat cushion (without adjustable thigh-support) that is way too small and short for my large heavy legs, a poorly-placed brake pedal for my big feet, and a rear seat that, despite a pass-through, doesn't fold down...I sometimes carry long, wide items in the trunk, and need the extra space.

So.....I like the ES's warm-weather ride, the reliability, the steering wheel, and the Swiss-watch assembly-quality.....but there are several negatives that keep it out of first-place. I'd put it in a tie with the Lincoln MKZ for third...behind the Lacrosse and the G80. Ordinarily, Lexus would win for dealer service, but I'm not impressed with how that particular Lexus shop is run (I had previous experience there, as an owner, with my Lexus IS300), and, by my standards, I got much better service from my GM shop. The GM On-Star system is also quite impressive.


Though it's not a done deal yet, it looks more and more like I'll end up behind the Tri-Shield again.....only this time, in color LOL.