Mercedes loses U.S. sales momentum as Trump lobs trade threats

[Tragic Bronson]

LUXURY: Mercedes loses U.S. sales momentum as Trump lobs trade threats

Sales momentum is fading for Germany’s biggest luxury automakers in the U.S. just as President Donald Trump threatens trade actions that could make their cars costlier.

BMW AG’s namesake brand outsold Mercedes-Benz for the first time this year, eking out a 1 percent gain in March. The increase, driven by the 5-series sedan, was BMW’s smallest gain in five months. Mercedes deliveries slipped 2.4 percent as demand for its top car, the C class, plunged.

Total U.S. luxury vehicle sales, despite the German automaker results, grew 3.6 percent in March to 190,262 vehicles. First quarter luxury sales improved 2.9 percent to 470,756 vehicles, according to the Automotive News Data Center.

Trump threats

Trump threatened to tax German-made cars sold in the U.S. in a stump speech near Pittsburgh last month, escalating a spat with the European Union over steel and aluminum tariffs. The barbs keep coming despite German automakers taking pains to showcase their U.S. production footprint, with BMW inviting the president to its plant in South Carolina last year and Volkswagen AG expanding production in Tennessee.

“We’re all concerned that in a market that’s slowing, we’re looking at a significant price increase,” said Marc Cohen, vice president of Priority 1 Automotive Group in Baltimore and a member of the American International Automobile Dealers Association. “It’s gotten enough talk that it’s on our radar screen.”

Even after its slip up in March, Mercedes still led its arch rival by nearly 5,000 U.S. vehicle sales at the end of the first quarter, with 78,747 deliveries over the three months, a drop of 0.8 percent.

Trump suggested last month that the U.S. could introduce a 25 percent tax on cars from the EU. He said during a press conference with the Swedish prime minister that the U.S. “has been mistreated” and “taken advantage of by other countries.” American companies face 10 percent levies on cars and parts going into Europe, while EU companies pay 2.5 percent to ship them here.

The U.S. has since said it would initially shield a list of allies, including Europe, from steel and aluminum tariffs.

American-made crossovers

In Alabama, Daimler produces more of its crossovers than anywhere else globally and is in the midst of a $1.3 billion expansion. BMW’s biggest factory in the world is in Spartanburg, S.C., which makes X3, X4, X5 and X6 crossovers for customers in the U.S., Germany and elsewhere.

“We feel that our footprint puts us in a very positive, strong position,” Bernhard Kuhnt, president of BMW of North America, said in an interview at the New York International Auto Show last week.

Volkswagen’s Audi, whose luxury crossovers drove a 7.4 percent sales gain in March, is more vulnerable to any tariffs on imported cars because it doesn’t have a plant in the U.S. Its top-selling Q5 is made in Mexico.

Though it’s been spared from Trump’s ire, Toyota Motor Corp.’s Lexus also slowed in March. Total sales slipped 3.2 percent as sedan deliveries fell 13 percent. For the quarter, Lexus deliveries rose 3.8 percent to 64,211 vehicles.

 

[mikeavelli]

I think with Audi continuing to rise the sales have to come from somewhere... competition is fierce right now. It could be an inventory issue as well with SUV's. Mercedes lineup is still very fresh with some amazing products.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

I think with Audi continuing to rise the sales have to come from somewhere... competition is fierce right now. It could be an inventory issue as well with SUV's. Mercedes lineup is still very fresh with some amazing products.

^^Honestly. If there is one car company one should follow, it is Mercedes-Benz and their amazing sub-divisions. I would strongly add in Porsche too, but they're almost their own entity now.

BMW basically gave up competing to Mercedes-Benz, their products show that, among many other reasons. I still have respect and love their past models, but they've simply lost it. They're starting to follow the Audi playbook.

Audi was never in this type of game, however they're not a bad company by any means.

Other companies are deemed irrelevant in this case. None of them are as big or as financially powerful as these five (including Porsche and Lexus).

Lexus is the closest company to Mercedes-Benz and they are really coming close to them in a plethora of categories. I can see a huge battle going on between Lexus and Mercedes-Benz in the near future. However in order for that to happen they need to take a big step in standing behind their philosophy as a brand. Honestly, the only difference are the following:

- They don't have as many coupes and cabriolets as Mercedes-Benz.
- They don't have as many full-blown racing models as Mercedes-Benz.
- The ES/NX/RX are the only FWD based cars in their respective categories compared to Mercedes-Benz. I won't count UX, because it makes TOTAL COMPLETE sense to have it FWD or a FWD based AWD.
- They do not have a F1 team and do not take part of formula racing anymore [(Toyota used to do it) except Super Formula and smaller junior formula series (which Toyota still does compete in)]. Super GT is going on a merger with DTM, which both companies compete in, and actually compete in all other kinds of motorsport (which is a similarity actually).

My point is that these two companies are so similar except the differences I mentioned above. Lexus is the closest to pick a fight with Mercedes-Benz, the only thing standing in their way is them having the guts to take a much bigger step like they just did with their flagship cars (and impressed us very much also), and fearing less of the market. If you build it, they WILL buy it. Sales are proof that Lexus is growing at a healthy rate, there is no reason why they wouldn't take the fight to Mercedes-Benz. They did it back in the late 80's/early 90's. Do it again today.

I seriously hope they take note of this post. Japan needs to come back. I say this as an enthusiast as a whole. No bias, no playing favorites. I really do see a great battle for supremacy between these two manufacturers. They're both so amazing in their own respects, and are both competitive as all hell. If Lexus does want to take the fight to Mercedes-Benz, just keep it clean and cool. I guarantee that Mercedes-Benz is taking close attention to Lexus, as they have caused a huge ripple in the luxury world many times, and everyone has followed their steps in some aspects. Likewise with Mercedes-Benz, as they have shocked the world many times also, which is why I see them both as really special.

If Lexus takes that step to stand up to them, and they can, Mercedes-Benz will respond back.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Mercedes is absolutely killing it in the "a product for every niche" category. You can absolutely quibble with the specific products they have in specific niches, but no matter where you go they're in the game.

 

[mikeavelli]

I just counted 7 SUV's... totally missed that....

 

[mmcartalk]

I just counted 7 SUV's...

....just like at Ford.

Ecosport, Escape, Edge, Transit-Connect Passenger Wagon, Explorer, Flex, Expedition. (eight, if you separate the standard-length Expedition from the longer Expedition EL)

 

[Joaquin Ruhi]

...And to think that once upon a time Lexus offered more crossover/SUV models than any other luxury brand. And now...

 

[mikeavelli]

...And to think that once upon a time Lexus offered more crossover/SUV models than any other luxury brand. And now...

Thats what gets me. I remember the bitching and moaning when Lexus had 3 SUVs in the early 2000s (LX, RX, GX). Wow they were ahead of their time.

Now its crazy the NX came late and the Germans not just have SUVs but SUV "coupes".

I just got excited about the LF-1 Limitless lol.

 

[Serpens]

BMW basically gave up competing to Mercedes-Benz, their products show that, among many other reasons. I still have respect and love their past models, but they've simply lost it. They're starting to follow the Audi playbook.

I disagree with this actually. The new BMW X3 has gotten absolutely brilliant reviews, and with the X5 and X7 debuting this year I expect strong BMW sales to continue. Mercedes will answer back when the new GLE and GLS hit the streets next year.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

I disagree with this actually. The new BMW X3 has gotten absolutely brilliant reviews, and with the X5 and X7 debuting this year I expect strong BMW sales to continue. Mercedes will answer back when the new GLE and GLS hit the streets next year.

The X3? You mean the one that's getting screwed over by our very own NX? No.

The X5? Fair argument, like I said before, Lexus has no competitor to the GLE. So I would say Mercedes-Benz and BMW are the biggest in this segment.

The X7? We haven't seen it yet, and the LF-1 should be debuting in the next few years. Therefore we cannot make a solid judgment on this.

Meanwhile, they do not have a Geländewagen (G-Class/G-Wagen) competitor while Lexus is hitting hard with the LX.

All in all, the only car that I would agree with you is the X5, but otherwise BMW are far off. If Lexus has the guts to pursue a RWD RX, then all hell goes loose in the automotive world.

 

[mmcartalk]

All in all, the only car that I would agree with you is the X5, but otherwise BMW are far off. If Lexus has the guts to pursue a RWD RX, then all hell goes loose in the automotive world.

Why would Lexus want to do a RWD RX just for the handling-enthusiasts over at BMW and Mercedes? The RX has been extremely successful as a FWD product....year after year leading the sales numbers in its class. My view is, if it ain't broke..............

 

[Serpens]

The X3? You mean the one that's getting screwed over by our very own NX? No.

Are you arguing against a point I didn't make? Seriously, go look at the reviews of the new-generation X3- they're uniformly positive. Even Consumer Reports. You seem to assuming I meant that the X3 is going to outsell the NX, which I would never expect it to given that it starts $6,000 above the NX and escalates quickly from there. BMW doesn't care about that, as the profit margin is high and there's the X1 and X2 offerings for customers looking for a cheaper BMW crossover. That being said, if you look at the stats the X3 is coming in nicely off its fresh debut from a sales perspective: http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/bmw-x3-sales-figures/

Really, I don't count the NX as a direct competitor of the X3 anyways. It only competes against the base model X3; the X3's direct competitors are the Q5, XC60, and GLC which are all priced very closely to each other. Definitely some cross shopping going on, of course.

The X5? Fair argument, like I said before, Lexus has no competitor to the GLE. So I would say Mercedes-Benz and BMW are the biggest in this segment.

Well if you're going to say the NX directly competes with the X3, then you could say the RX competes with the GLE and X5. To my above point, I'd say the RX overlaps with the Germans but I wouldn't call it a direct competitor given their broad range of offerings. Further, your comment has nothing to do with the piece I quoted ("BMW gave up competing with Mercedes-Benz")

The X7? We haven't seen it yet, and the LF-1 should be debuting in the next few years. Therefore we cannot make a solid judgment on this.

My post was purely about sales the sentences I quoted, which I disagree with. The X7 is a going to compete with the Mercedes GLS, so I don't think they've given up competing at all. And yes it will be nice when Lexus enters the fray sometime later.

All in all, the only car that I would agree with you is the X5, but otherwise BMW are far off. If Lexus has the guts to pursue a RWD RX, then all hell goes loose in the automotive world.

Nothing you posted so far tells me that BMW is "far off". In addition to the new X5 and X7, they have the 8-series coming, the 5-series is off to a strong start, the new 3-series is hitting the streets next year (we may be seeing it debut at an autoshow this year) the X2 is now hitting the streets, and finally the 7-series is getting a very thorough facelift to correct lame sales. BMW should be in great shape.

 

[Serpens]

Why would Lexus want to do a RWD RX just for the handling-enthusiasts over at BMW and Mercedes? The RX has been extremely successful as a FWD product....year after year leading the sales numbers in its class. My view is, if it ain't broke..............

Now this is something I agree with.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

Why would Lexus want to do a RWD RX just for the handling-enthusiasts over at BMW and Mercedes? The RX has been extremely successful as a FWD product....year after year leading the sales numbers in its class. My view is, if it ain't broke..............

You didn't seem to understand my point. My point is how Lexus is so close to Mercedes-Benz in so many ways. Secondly, the RX nameplate is enough to sell on its own. You slap that model nameplate on an ES sedan and call it the "RX sedan", people will come in flocks to buy and book it out of the dealership. You make it RWD, you will even snatch more customers. This was PURELY from an enthusiast point of view. That should clear things up.

Are you arguing against a point I didn't make? Seriously, go look at the reviews of the new-generation X3- they're uniformly positive. Even Consumer Reports. You seem to assuming I meant that the X3 is going to outsell the NX, which I would never expect it to given that it starts $6,000 above the NX and escalates quickly from there. BMW doesn't care about that, as the profit margin is high and there's the X1 and X2 offerings for customers looking for a cheaper BMW crossover. That being said, if you look at the stats the X3 is coming in nicely off its fresh debut from a sales perspective: http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/bmw-x3-sales-figures/

Really, I don't count the NX as a direct competitor of the X3 anyways. It only competes against the base model X3; the X3's direct competitors are the Q5, XC60, and GLC which are all priced very closely to each other. Definitely some cross shopping going on, of course.

Well if you're going to say the NX directly competes with the X3, then you could say the RX competes with the GLE and X5. To my above point, I'd say the RX overlaps with the Germans but I wouldn't call it a direct competitor given their broad range of offerings. Further, your comment has nothing to do with the piece I quoted ("BMW gave up competing with Mercedes-Benz")

My post was purely about sales the sentences I quoted, which I disagree with. The X7 is a going to compete with the Mercedes GLS, so I don't think they've given up competing at all. And yes it will be nice when Lexus enters the fray sometime later.

Nothing you posted so far tells me that BMW is "far off". In addition to the new X5 and X7, they have the 8-series coming, the 5-series is off to a strong start, the new 3-series is hitting the streets next year (we may be seeing it debut at an autoshow this year) the X2 is now hitting the streets, and finally the 7-series is getting a very thorough facelift to correct lame sales. BMW should be in great shape.

Then good sir, you clearly haven't cared to FULLY read my post. If you also pay this much attention to the X3 then surely you would have taken note on how BMW is horrendously falling off these days, bar the X3. Don't jump to conclusions about me not saying anything. I clearly did.

Fair point about the NX, I accidentally glossed over at the fact that the NX is purely FWD too.

If you have read my very first post, I was discussing how close Lexus is to Mercedes-Benz in terms of core competencies, competition and their model lineup. BMW really fell off nowadays in terms of driving feel, tautness of the chassis, steering, and quality. However I have paid attention to the new X3 reviews and I am quite aware of its status. It won't make a huge difference. The NX is that much of a powerful asset to Lexus that when it comes to practicality, powertrain options (hybrid in specific), overall style, that you do realize that the GLC is mimicking the NX.

I'll be honest and this sounds stuck-up of me. However I cannot get rid of the fact of how BMW are under performing their competitors. They lack true luxury, or being the ultimate driving machine. The X3 by itself won't save the brand, therefore one good car won't sway my full attention to them. I genuinely wish they fire back up like a decade and a half ago, but they have failed time and time again that I purely gave up on them, now I just don't have that interest in them anymore. It is so clear that cars like the NX is more superior (comparing to the past X3 refresh) and the GLC too. I'll also throw in the Macan and the Q5 for good measure. Once the NX is up for a full on new generation, I really don't see much competition except the GLC/Macan.

Yes, they're more expensive cars, but Lexus has always undercut its competitors in terms of MSRP since its inception. You think my only argument is sales, but what I wanted you to understand was that, sales are only proof of why Lexus is doing better. They pay more attention to the details, interior and exterior quality, paint finishes (have you ever seen an old BMW, and compare that to a Lexus), NVH, wind noises, and reliability. Sales are a reflection of a car's performance and there are obviously reasons why one car will sell less than another, and they are the reasons I have listed above in terms of BMW and Lexus. It will be great for them to release these newer models, but to shake off their poor reputation, that will take forever.

However, one car that in my eyes will be magically exempt from the rest of the lineup is the X7. It will be nice to have the X7 coming along. It will be based off of the Rolls-Royce Cullinan platform. One can now say it is a "cheaper Rolls-Royce", which is bound to get customers. I wouldn't be surprised if the LF-1 in the future has a hard time getting sales away from it.

By the way, Consumer Reports are the most BS media I have ever seen. They're anti-Lexus and Toyota and it is so obvious it makes me laugh. Same with AutoGuide. It is hilarious looking at the comments section full of people shitting on both of these two media outlets, it is so obvious that even the most simplest life form can understand the mess that's going on.

 

[Serpens]

You didn't seem to understand my point. My point is how Lexus is so close to Mercedes-Benz in so many ways. Secondly, the RX nameplate is enough to sell on its own. You slap that model nameplate on an ES sedan and call it the "RX sedan", people will come in flocks to buy and book it out of the dealership. You make it RWD, you will even snatch more customers. This was PURELY from an enthusiast point of view. That should clear things up.

You'll note I didn't quote your entire post. I had no desire to go into this "Lexus is so close to Mercedes-Benz" part of your post because I didn't feel like launching on a distribe of why I disagree. The only point I cared to debate is the part I quoted, which is that BMW is falling off. This is why I'm confused as to why you are even bringing Lexus into this to particular point.

Then good sir, you clearly haven't cared to FULLY read my post. If you also pay this much attention to the X3 then surely you would have taken note on how BMW is horrendously falling off these days, bar the X3. Don't jump to conclusions about me not saying anything. I clearly did.

No, I see that BMW went through a down period but seems to be regaining traction. Did you see the reviews on the new BMW M5? Everyone loves that one too. We shall see what the next few years bring but there is evidence BMW still has some of the old magic left.

If you have read my very first post, I was discussing how close Lexus is to Mercedes-Benz in terms of core competencies, competition and their model lineup.

I didn't bother discussing this part of your post at the beginning (as referenced earlier), but now I will. I actually do agree that their core competencies are similar, but now their model lineups have diverted enough to the point where I believe they've begun distancing themselves. Mercedes is investing heavily into its AMG arm (AMG GT, AMG GT-four door, 43 and 53 model lines), coupe versions of their SUV's (Lexus nowhere to be seen), ultra luxury (Maybach version of GLS, Maybach S-class), convertibles are still present (C, E, S, and AMG GT), they have a 4-door coupe in the CLS (Lexus nowhere to be seen), and their FWD platforms have proliferated on the bottom end (see upcoming A-class sedan that's coming to the U.S., next-gen CLA, next-gen GLA, new GLB crossover). Lexus continues to print money with the ES which is FWD, has the GX which is BOF which Mercedes has no analogue to. You know who actually has a lineup that more closely mirrors MB nowadays? Hint: They're headquarted in Germany.

BMW really fell off nowadays in terms of driving feel, tautness of the chassis, steering, and quality. However I have paid attention to the new X3 reviews and I am quite aware of its status. It won't make a huge difference.

If you've paid attention to the X3 then you'd know it was praised for its driving feel, chassis, steering, and quality then. Let's see if that spreads to the rest of the BMW offerings from here on out. And look- Car and Driver just left a very nice review of the [ugly imo] 6-series GT: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-bmw-640i-xdrive-gran-turismo-test-review

The NX is that much of a powerful asset to Lexus that when it comes to practicality, powertrain options (hybrid in specific), overall style, that you do realize that the GLC is mimicking the NX.

Strongly disagree. These cars were in development at that same time, with the NX coming just a year before hand. There is no mimicking between the two as it currently stands. Further, Mercedes opted for a plug-in hybrid powerplant unlike Lexus. Practicality and overall style? The GLC is RWD, priced more expensively than the NX, and has AMG variants. Again, if you look across at the Q5 and X3 it's no coincidence they're all very similar in terms of layout, price, and size.

I'll be honest and this sounds stuck-up of me. However I cannot get rid of the fact of how BMW are under performing their competitors. They lack true luxury, or being the ultimate driving machine. The X3 by itself won't save the brand, therefore one good car won't sway my full attention to them. I genuinely wish they fire back up like a decade and a half ago, but they have failed time and time again that I purely gave up on them, now I just don't have that interest in them anymore. It is so clear that cars like the NX is more superior (comparing to the past X3 refresh) and the GLC too. I'll also throw in the Macan and the Q5 for good measure. Once the NX is up for a full on new generation, I really don't see much competition except the GLC/Macan.

I agree the X3 isn't going to save the brand. My point is the X3 and M5 show me that all is not lost; the proof for me that BMW has turned a corner will be the X5 and next 3-series. They really messed up with this last generation of cars imo. The Lexus NX deserves every single sale it gets. That being said, I'll take a full optioned Volvo or any 3 of the Germans over it any time. I want speed, handling, and the nice interior and features that comes with the upmarket Germans. Lexus won't be sitting on its laurels certainly so I'm curious to see what they've have in store.

Yes, they're more expensive cars, but Lexus has always undercut its competitors in terms of MSRP since its inception. You think my only argument is sales, but what I wanted you to understand was that, sales are only proof of why Lexus is doing better. They pay more attention to the details, interior and exterior quality, paint finishes (have you ever seen an old BMW, and compare that to a Lexus), NVH, wind noises, and reliability. Sales are a reflection of a car's performance and there are obviously reasons why one car will sell less than another, and they are the reasons I have listed above in terms of BMW and Lexus. It will be great for them to release these newer models, but to shake off their poor reputation, that will take forever.

But new crop of crossovers really improved- they euros I mentioned all have top notch interiors. I just got through driving all of them which is why I'm attuned to this topic. I trust Lexus more than any other brand from a reliability standpoint, but I also typically lease so this isn't paramount to me. I see the NX sleepy 2.0t motor, below par infotainment, and blah dynamics. Others see the reliability, fantastic ride, great interior for the price, and quality. And the ability to upgrade my ride with personalized features. Where's the Lexus equivalent to Mercedes' designo interior? I personally think BMW has the chance to bounce back far quicker than you're letting on. If Mercedes can bounce back from the horror that was the early/mid-2000's quality and design lapses, BMW can bounce back from this.

However, one car that in my eyes will be magically exempt from the rest of the lineup is the X7. It will be nice to have the X7 coming along. It will be based off of the Rolls-Royce Cullinan platform. One can now say it is a "cheaper Rolls-Royce", which is bound to get customers. I wouldn't be surprised if the LF-1 in the future has a hard time getting sales away from it.

Actually no it will not. The Cullinan is on the same flexible aluminum-intensive platform as the Phantom, which is different than the BMW CLAR platform that will underpin everything from the X7 down to the next-gen 3-series.

By the way, Consumer Reports are the most BS media I have ever seen. They're anti-Lexus and Toyota and it is so obvious it makes me laugh. Same with AutoGuide. It is hilarious looking at the comments section full of people shitting on both of these two media outlets, it is so obvious that even the most simplest life form can understand the mess that's going on.

Sure. They're not my favorite auto magazine by a long shot; I merely mentioned them because rarely do magazines such as Car and Driver and Consumer Reports agree in their reviews of cars. In the case of the X3, they did.

 

[F1 Silver Arrows]

You'll note I didn't quote your entire post. I had no desire to go into this "Lexus is so close to Mercedes-Benz" part of your post because I didn't feel like launching on a distribe of why I disagree. The only point I cared to debate is the part I quoted, which is that BMW is falling off. This is why I'm confused as to why you are even bringing Lexus into this to particular point.

That response was to mmcartalk's comment, I responded to your quoted posts shortly after.

No, I see that BMW went through a down period but seems to be regaining traction. Did you see the reviews on the new BMW M5? Everyone loves that one too. We shall see what the next few years bring but there is evidence BMW still has some of the old magic left.

I did see the BMW M5 but it still won't be able to gain as much traction as the E63S and the future RS6/RS7. From what I heard (insider info), the future RS cars will beat the E63 blow the M5 out of the water in the future generation. I hope for Lexus to jump in as well with their purported 4.0L twin-turbo V8.

I didn't bother discussing this part of your post at the beginning (as referenced earlier), but now I will. I actually do agree that their core competencies are similar, but now their model lineups have diverted enough to the point where I believe they've begun distancing themselves. Mercedes is investing heavily into its AMG arm (AMG GT, AMG GT-four door, 43 and 53 model lines), coupe versions of their SUV's (Lexus nowhere to be seen), ultra luxury (Maybach version of GLS, Maybach S-class), convertibles are still present (C, E, S, and AMG GT), they have a 4-door coupe in the CLS (Lexus nowhere to be seen), and their FWD platforms have proliferated on the bottom end (see upcoming A-class sedan that's coming to the U.S., next-gen CLA, next-gen GLA, new GLB crossover). Lexus continues to print money with the ES which is FWD, has the GX which is BOF which Mercedes has no analogue to. You know who actually has a lineup that more closely mirrors MB nowadays? Hint: They're headquarted in Germany.

I actually mentioned ALL of this it on a list on my first post on how they are different. You didn't seem to pay attention to that. I'll let it slide. Second, Lexus is mirroring Mercedes-Benz much more than BMW. If the new GS comes to fruition to the way we hope to be and the new ES arrives. The GX and the RX are respectively adjacent in the model lineup. Think of it as a CLS and a E class competitor. In terms of the SUV's you can also think of it as a GLE for the RX and the GX is that middle point between GLS and GLE (GLE Coupe would make sense).

If you've paid attention to the X3 then you'd know it was praised for its driving feel, chassis, steering, and quality then. Let's see if that spreads to the rest of the BMW offerings from here on out. And look- Car and Driver just left a very nice review of the [ugly imo] 6-series GT: https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-bmw-640i-xdrive-gran-turismo-test-review

I wholeheartedly agree, another thing you missed that they complimented was how the engine worked well with the car as a whole. However, when I said that I meant it as BMW in general, one (or two in the case of the much more improved M5), won't do much for the brand. However if your word is true, then I am quite excited for what's to come from BMW.

Strongly disagree. These cars were in development at that same time, with the NX coming just a year before hand. There is no mimicking between the two as it currently stands. Further, Mercedes opted for a plug-in hybrid powerplant unlike Lexus. Practicality and overall style? The GLC is RWD, priced more expensively than the NX, and has AMG variants. Again, if you look across at the Q5 and X3 it's no coincidence they're all very similar in terms of layout, price, and size.

As something beautiful @Ian Schmidt said, he mentioned something in regards to Carmaker1 (a great insider who brings us a lot of TMC news) actually works for JLR. It shows how manufacturers know lots about each other. As for the GLC, it is still a hybrid. Just like the NX. I don't care whether it's plug-in or not. Not my point. Lastly, well DUH, German automobiles are always more pricier than cars from Japan/Europe/USA. I thought that's a given.

I agree the X3 isn't going to save the brand. My point is the X3 and M5 show me that all is not lost; the proof for me that BMW has turned a corner will be the X5 and next 3-series. They really messed up with this last generation of cars imo. The Lexus NX deserves every single sale it gets. That being said, I'll take a full optioned Volvo or any 3 of the Germans over it any time. I want speed, handling, and the nice interior and features that comes with the upmarket Germans. Lexus won't be sitting on its laurels certainly so I'm curious to see what they've have in store.

No discussion on this one. We're both on the same page. Excellent.

But new crop of crossovers really improved- they euros I mentioned all have top notch interiors. I just got through driving all of them which is why I'm attuned to this topic. I trust Lexus more than any other brand from a reliability standpoint, but I also typically lease so this isn't paramount to me. I see the NX sleepy 2.0t motor, below par infotainment, and blah dynamics. Others see the reliability, fantastic ride, great interior for the price, and quality. And the ability to upgrade my ride with personalized features. Where's the Lexus equivalent to Mercedes' designo interior? I personally think BMW has the chance to bounce back far quicker than you're letting on. If Mercedes can bounce back from the horror that was the early/mid-2000's quality and design lapses, BMW can bounce back from this.

If you connect this quote to your last quote and how you mentioned "Lexus won't be sitting on its laurels", then your former problems won't be there anymore. Dynamics are a huge plus with the addition of the brand new TNGA platforms, transmissions and motors. I also agree, BMW can bounce back for sure.

Actually no it will not. The Cullinan is on the same flexible aluminum-intensive platform as the Phantom, which is different than the BMW CLAR platform that will underpin everything from the X7 down to the next-gen 3-series.

This is what I heard from youtuber Salomondrin, who is a big Rolls-Royce customer, he got it from insider info from BMW/Rolls-Royce. I thought that was the case.

Sure. They're not my favorite auto magazine by a long shot; I merely mentioned them because rarely do magazines such as Car and Driver and Consumer Reports agree in their reviews of cars. In the case of the X3, they did.

Honestly, I try to watch more unbiased reviews because I am genuinely sick of media outlets like them. This is why I am now also an unbiased person too.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Nothing you posted so far tells me that BMW is "far off". In addition to the new X5 and X7, they have the 8-series coming, the 5-series is off to a strong start, the new 3-series is hitting the streets next year (we may be seeing it debut at an autoshow this year) the X2 is now hitting the streets, and finally the 7-series is getting a very thorough facelift to correct lame sales. BMW should be in great shape.

But the 3 series has now throughly alienated the traditional "ultimate driving machine" customers (and those who are left aren't thrilled about the reliability), the look isn't the problem with the 7[1], and the 5 always falls off quickly after a good start.

[1] The problem with the 7 is that it's a blah tweener car - it offers neither the value for money of the LS nor the ultimate luxury of the S Class. They went all in on techno-gadgetry to chase Tesla and forgot who their real competitors are.

 

[Serpens]

But the 3 series has now throughly alienated the traditional "ultimate driving machine" customers (and those who are left aren't thrilled about the reliability), the look isn't the problem with the 7[1], and the 5 always falls off quickly after a good start.

- Has it though? Because the sales say otherwise. They are still very strong. And you're really underestimating the power of the brand if you think one generation is going to cause BMW to fall off its perch forever. If this new 3-series shows the BMW mojo they'll be just fine. Brands like this are more resilient than you think.

-The look is very much the problem with the 7 which is why it's getting such an extensive facelift. The feedback has been very evident in consumer clinics. That it's not its only issue to be clear, but a big one.

-Did you look at any data before making that comment on the 5-series? Sales didn't really fall off until the very end of the lifecycle even with this latest generation: http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01/bmw-5-series-sales-figures/

1] The problem with the 7 is that it's a blah tweener car - it offers neither the value for money of the LS nor the ultimate luxury of the S Class. They went all in on techno-gadgetry to chase Tesla and forgot who their real competitors are.

The 7-series has never offered the value of the LS or the ultimate luxury of the S-class. That's not its USP. It was supposed to be a sleek and sporty option in the full size luxury sedan segment...and this generation isn't sleek or particularly sporty. They attempted to go ultimate luxury and failed. They'll be sharpening things up for the facelift but its not their best effort.

 

[Serpens]

I did see the BMW M5 but it still won't be able to gain as much traction as the E63S and the future RS6/RS7. From what I heard (insider info), the future RS cars will beat the E63 blow the M5 out of the water in the future generation. I hope for Lexus to jump in as well with their purported 4.0L twin-turbo V8.

No one is sitting on their hands. BMW still has the M5 Competition coming and Mercedes will be introducing the AMG [X]73 models on the AMG GT 4-door. The M5 is already getting plenty of traction, it's AWD now. You're truly splitting hairs at that point, they're all brilliant.

I actually mentioned ALL of this it on a list on my first post on how they are different. You didn't seem to pay attention to that. I'll let it slide. Second, Lexus is mirroring Mercedes-Benz much more than BMW. If the new GS comes to fruition to the way we hope to be and the new ES arrives. The GX and the RX are respectively adjacent in the model lineup. Think of it as a CLS and a E class competitor. In terms of the SUV's you can also think of it as a GLE for the RX and the GX is that middle point between GLS and GLE (GLE Coupe would make sense).

Yet you haven't mentioned in what ways BMW isn't mirroring Mercedes, which makes no sense to me. They almost as a 1:1 for match for every model except for the G-wagen, and full fledged hypercar. Just look at it:

X1/X2: GLA
X3: GLC
X4: GLC coupe
X5: GLE
X6: GLE coupe
X7: GLS
2-series: CLA
3-series: C-class
4-series: C-class coupe/vert
5-series: E-class
6-series GC/future 8-series GC: CLS, AMG GT 4-door
7-series: S-class
8-series: S-class coupe/vert

There's a reason for this, and that's because Lexus is relative nonissue in the global market. Hell, BMW and Mercedes even have mirrored models in China (long wheel base variants the 5-series and E-class, for example). The two carmakers chat all the time (as you noted, the industry is quite chatty)- recently the Mercedes-AMG chief joked that he was mad that BMW hadn't sent them an M5 to test shortly before the car's debut.

As something beautiful @Ian Schmidt said, he mentioned something in regards to Carmaker1 (a great insider who brings us a lot of TMC news) actually works for JLR. It shows how manufacturers know lots about each other. As for the GLC, it is still a hybrid. Just like the NX. I don't care whether it's plug-in or not. Not my point. Lastly, well DUH, German automobiles are always more pricier than cars from Japan/Europe/USA. I thought that's a given.

Very familiar with carmaker1, he has likely knows of the screen name that I use on other forums. And really, on the electrification front, it's super clear why most of the luxury carmakers didn't double down on hybrid tech quite the way Lexus did. That was more of a stepping stone until their electrification efforts actually got some investment. Now we are here on the eve of fully electric lineups, with all of the Germans (and JLR) launching a slew crossovers and sedans within the next 2 years.

Also note they're all now beginning to use mild hybrids a lot more often (i.e. the new Mercedes I6), which is noticeably absent from Lexus at this time. That's to be expected though as Lexus typically refines everything until it's extremely reliable.

This all to say I'm no huge BMW fan, haven't owned one since the 2004 33oi 6MT I owned in high school.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

- Has it though? Because the sales say otherwise. They are still very strong.

I've heard anecdotally that the sales are strong basically because there's a new generation of, for lack of a better term, poseurs who've heard the 3 series is great and want the badge. Naturally these folks wouldn't dream of ordering one with a 6MT.

The 7-series has never offered the value of the LS or the ultimate luxury of the S-class. That's not its USP. It was supposed to be a sleek and sporty option in the full size luxury sedan segment...and this generation isn't sleek or particularly sporty. They attempted to go ultimate luxury and failed. They'll be sharpening things up for the facelift but its not their best effort.

It used to be both sporty and a reasonably good value. Given the results I'm not sure I believe they were really aiming for ultimate luxury; the techno-gadgetry of the car is the one thing everyone points out.