Lexus to Offer Next-Generation LS with Four-Cylinder Turbo Engine?

[Carmaker1]

The fact of the matter is the Germans have offered smaller engines in their flagships for decades while Lexus has soldiered on with only a V-8 or V-8 hybrid option. BMW and Audi here both offer a 6 cylinder base models to the V-8 LS. The S550 here is obviously in its own world selling V-8 only and commanding by far the highest transaction prices here. Even the Porsche Panamera offers a 300hp V-6 as the base model. I don't see any interest arguments stating how Lexus is the only luxury brand that sells their flagship with a V-8 only thus they are extremely prestigious. What I do see many times are asinine arguments stating the LS costs less and that is why it sells.

Lexus might have figured out that most people don't seem to care what the base engine is as long as high option engines are offered. I have no issues with a V-6 or an I-4/hybrid LS once its done right. It might not be for me but there is likely a market for it, particularly the V-6.

However, I feel VERY strongly if Lexus is going to offer smaller engines, they sure as hell better off a 550hp+ LS F as soon as possible and not wait 3-4 years after the new generation debuts.

Yes, as the lack of smaller engines, is partly why the LS sells so little in much of Europe. I also hope they do not prolong the release of an LS-F, as 18 months should be the maximum and no more than that. At this stage, I've noticed a problem also. Notice how much of everything with Japanese publications, keep listing "17 - 5" as a date? What does this mean exactly, when "16 - 11" (November 2016) has been listed for the LC?

For the longest time, some prominent U.S. sources have pointed to a "Summer 2017" launch and that the LC will debut the new RWD modular platform, which launches in January 2017. I really hope not. Is it possible that the concept will be shown at Tokyo 2015, then a full production unveiling in January 2017?

This image above is nothing more than a render of this test vehicle spotted in Japan during December 2013-January 2014.

 

[Black Dynamite]

May 2017 sounds right, after Detroit and New York Auto Shows. The IS came out mid-year in 2012.
I'm not worried about them bringing the LSF before the end of 2018, either.
The 4-banger is for foreign, not Western, markets. May work in Europe, but not the U.S. They sell enough hybrids to not have to worry about CAFE for this low-volume sedan.
Not really interested in a 10-speed slushbox, unless they can find a way to make it electronic in nature. 8 speeds is really the functional limit that the LS set several years ago. Beyond that you really need a CVT, but CVTs can't handle the power, so I'd work on tougher CVTs, not more gears.
It's good to get a timetable. I expect to see it at the 2017 Detroit International Auto Show, if not the 2016 Tokyo Auto Show
BD

 

[Tinhinnh]

I don't like any aspect of the rendering: Honda Crosstour, anyone....?

 

[mikeavelli]

The Tokyo Auto show is bi-yearly, that's the thing. If it doesn't debut as a concept this year then they won't be able to show it in Japan in 2016. The Tokyo Auto Salon is a modified car show and there is no way it would debut there in Japan.

.....patiently awaits LS F.......

 

[mmcartalk]

The skeptics are often the ones that have only experienced mainstream 4 bangers in GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Subies vehicles, and of course those would be unacceptable in this application.

True in some cases, not in others. Older domestic GM, Ford, and Chrysler in-line fours (and the Subaru flat-fours) often were rough and lacking in refinement. But Honda and Toyota could, and often did, produce fours that would spin like sewing machines. With Honda fours, especially of the VTEC variety, often you HAD to spin them if you wanted any torque. In contrast, the GM Quad-Four and Iron Duke (I'm sure you probably remember both engines) could have been lifted right out of the average farm tractor.

 

[mmcartalk]

The S550 here is obviously in its own world selling V-8 only and commanding by far the highest transaction prices here.

Perhaps slightly off-topic on my part, but I think it also bears mentioning, not only on the S-Class but other American-spec M-B- products as well, that Mercedes won't sell the lower-spec, less-equipped versions here that they do in Europe. In Germany, for example, it's not unusual to see Mercedes taxicabs and even personal cars with sparsely-equipped, Plain-Jane interiors and all-vinyl seats, without even the leather substitute that they sell here (M-B Tex). You've already mentioned some of the powertrain differences, so I won't go into them.

However, I feel VERY strongly if Lexus is going to offer smaller engines, they sure as hell better off a 550hp+ LS F as soon as possible and not wait 3-4 years after the new generation debuts.

Based on F-Sport sales of LS models (yes, I know you have one), do you think there is a significant market for a full LS-F? There are a number of cars and/or options, for example, that I myself would like to see in production, but they just aren't going to happen, for a number of reasons.[/QUOTE]

 

[IS-SV]

True in some cases, not in others. Older domestic GM, Ford, and Chrysler in-line fours (and the Subaru flat-fours) often were rough and lacking in refinement. But Honda and Toyota could, and often did, produce fours that would spin like sewing machines. With Honda fours, especially of the VTEC variety, often you HAD to spin them if you wanted any torque. In contrast, the GM Quad-Four and Iron Duke (I'm sure you probably remember both engines) could have been lifted right out of the average farm tractor.

We are not talking about outdated generalizations about spinning like "sewing machines". Certainly iron dukes aren't relavent, lol, 2015 is current year btw. Just because a engine spins freely doesn't make it appropriate for a premium car, the NVH alone of those Vtec Honda 4's (the very poor example given) completely unacceptable in a top tier premium car (LS is topic). True in all cases I mentioned. Not true in any example you gave.

I can give you one exception (engine) to what I stated (clue: it is a mainstream brand that I listed, you should know it, and given that one engine/exception one mainstream should be scratched off my list for acceptable premium car level NVH, if not a nice sporting soundtrack.).

 

[mmcartalk]

We are not talking about outdated generalizations about spinning like "sewing machines". Certainly iron dukes aren't relavent, lol, 2015 is current year btw. Just because a engine spins freely doesn't make it appropriate for a premium car, the NVH alone of those Vtec Honda 4's (the very poor example given) completely unacceptable in a top tier premium car. True in all cases I mentioned.

I used the term not necessarily to indicate use in a premium-grade vehicle, but the differences between low-priced fours. Some do (and did) spin smooth like an electric motor, others can practically drive you nuts with NVH. You were speaking about skeptics that had experienced only fours from lower-cost or mainstream manufacturers. There were (and are) plenty of differences, though, between those fours.

I can give you one exception (engine) to what I stated (clue: it is a mainstream brand that I listed, you should know it, and given that one exception one mainstream should be scratched off my list for acceptable premium car level NVH, if not a sporting soundtrack.).

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I probably do know the engine, but not in the way you explain it. (?) I don't follow you when you say earlier that mainstream in-line fours are not suitable for premium vehicle use, but then one can be scratched OFF your list...or did you mean ON? You'll either have to rephrase the question or clue me in on the engine.

 

[IS-SV]

I used the term not necessarily to indicate use in a premium-grade vehicle, but the differences between low-priced fours. Some do (and did) spin smooth like an electric motor, others can practically drive you nuts with NVH. You were speaking about skeptics that had experienced only fours from lower-cost or mainstream manufacturers. There were (and are) plenty of differences, though, between those fours.



I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I probably do know the engine, but not in the way you explain it. (?) I don't follow you when you say earlier that mainstream in-line fours are not suitable for premium vehicle use, but then one can be scratched OFF your list...or did you mean ON? You'll either have to rephrase the question or clue me in on the engine.

In short, topic is LS, a top tier premium car, and a possible turbo4 base engine. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

None of the (today) GM, Chrsysler, Mazda, Subie, Toyota, Honda 4's have acceptable NVH and power delivery to be used in premium car such as LS (or IS, GS, ES, etc.). Sure there are lots of differences in mainstream 4 bangers but that doesn't matter, because they aren't appropriate for use in top tier premium car.

The one exception I was referring to was the Ford 2.0T, used in certain Range Rover/Jag vehicles. Known for very good NVH and smooth power delivery (and used in your favorite struggling domestic lux brand too), even if the sound at full throttle is not especially "sporting" as desired in premium car.

 

[mmcartalk]

In short, topic is LS, a top tier premium car, and a possible turbo4 base engine. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

None of the GM, Chrsysler, Mazda, Subie, Toyota, Honda 4's have acceptable NVH and power delivery to be used in premium car such as LS (or IS, GS, ES, etc.). Sure there are lots of differences in mainstream 4 bangers but that doesn't matter, because they aren't appropriate for use in top tier premium car.

The one exception I was referring to was the Ford 2.0T, used in certain Range Rover/Jag vehicles. Known for very good NVH and smooth power delivery (and used in your favorite struggling domestic lux brand too), even if the sound at full throttle is not especially "sportin" as desired in premium car.

Thanks...that clears things up a little.

I agree, most Honda fours don't have the torque (especially at low RPMs) for a premium vehicle...despite Acura using some of them in past Integras, RSX, TSX, and present ILX models. (sorry for another line-up of Alphabet soup, but that's Acura for you)

The Ford 2.0T is a nice engine for its size......I've sampled it in both the latest Lincoln MKZ sedan and the all-new MKC compact SUV last year. But I'm not sure if it is any nicer than the ubiquitous but excellent VW/Audi 2.0T, which has been around for a number of years, and continues to please, especially hooked to the also-excellent VW/Audi DSG S-Tronic dual-clutch gearbox.

 

[IS-SV]

The Ford 2.0T is a nice engine for its size......I've sampled it in both the latest Lincoln MKZ sedan and the all-new MKC compact SUV last year. But I'm not sure if it is any nicer than the ubiquitous but excellent VW/Audi 2.0T, which has been around for a number of years, and continues to please, especially hooked to the also-excellent VW/Audi DSG S-Tronic dual-clutch gearbox.

Good point on VW/Audi 2.0T engine, and that's why VW wasn't on my list of mainstream brands, and also why Audi has successfully used it in relatively expensive Audis for years.

As I said earlier often skeptics about using Turbo4's in premium cars have been (over)exposed to regular Toyota, Honda, Subie, GM, Chrysler, Mazda 4 bangers, and none would be acceptable as base engine in a Lexus LS. NVH alone wouldn't cut it, not to mention power delivery, sound at high revs.

 

[CIF]

Just want to add, Mag-X is well known for very loose and inaccurate renders. Their renders are more like "rough sketches" than anything else. So I would definitely not take that render seriously.

I also fully agree with Lexfather. If they do indeed offer some sort of 4-cyl based engine variant, then they really NEED to offer an LS-F as well. With that said, I fully expect a 4-cyl turbo/hybrid/etc sort of variant to be only for limited markets.

I can give you one exception (engine) to what I stated (clue: it is a mainstream brand that I listed, you should know it, and given that one engine/exception one mainstream should be scratched off my list for acceptable premium car level NVH, if not a nice sporting soundtrack.).

Just curious, have you sampled the 2015 Camry and the 2.5L in there? I've driven the 2015 Camry on and off over the last few months for work, and the refinement of the 2.5L in the 2015 Camry specifically is just superb. It's very close to Lexus-level refinement. The first few days I was driving it, I even forgot momentarily that it was the 4-cyl and not the V6 that I was driving! I don't mean power-wise, but in terms of refinement and NVH. That's why it doesn't surprise me whatsoever that the Lexus ES250 is sold in some overseas markets, using this exact 2.5L engine from the Camry.

 

[IS-SV]

Just want to add, Mag-X is well known for very loose and inaccurate renders. Their renders are more like "rough sketches" than anything else. So it I would definitely not take that render seriously.


Just curious, have you sampled the 2015 Camry and the 2.5L in there? I've driven the 2015 Camry on and off over the last few months for work, and the refinement of the 2.5L in the 2015 Camry specifically is just superb. It's very close to Lexus-level refinement. The first few days I was driving it, I even forgot momentarily that it was the 4-cyl and not the V6 that I was driving! I don't mean power-wise, but in terms of refinement and NVH. That's why it doesn't surprise me whatsoever that the Lexus ES250 is sold in some overseas markets, using this exact 2.5L engine from the Camry.

Pretty crappy rendering for sure.

I have not driven latest Camry 2.5L, that's good to hear what Toyota has accomplished and what customers today should demand even in mid-priced cars.

But as you mentioned the power isn't there (at least by U.S. Premium car standards), that's where the turbo(4) comes in....

 

[CIF]

Pretty crappy rendering for sure.

I have not driven latest Camry 2.5L, that's good to hear what Toyota has accomplished and what customers today should demand even in mid-priced cars.

But as you mentioned the power isn't there (at least by U.S. Premium car standards), that's where the turbo(4) comes in....

Yes fair point, the 2.5L Camry engine being NA, certainly doesn't have high power. I found the power was still pretty decent, and more importantly the torque curve was very well tuned.

Edit: Especially here at high altitude, the Camry performed well even on steep uphills. No struggling or hesitation.

 

[Carmaker1]

May 2017 sounds right, after Detroit and New York Auto Shows. The IS came out mid-year in 2012.
I'm not worried about them bringing the LSF before the end of 2018, either.
The 4-banger is for foreign, not Western, markets. May work in Europe, but not the U.S. They sell enough hybrids to not have to worry about CAFE for this low-volume sedan.
Not really interested in a 10-speed slushbox, unless they can find a way to make it electronic in nature. 8 speeds is really the functional limit that the LS set several years ago. Beyond that you really need a CVT, but CVTs can't handle the power, so I'd work on tougher CVTs, not more gears.
It's good to get a timetable. I expect to see it at the 2017 Detroit International Auto Show, if not the 2016 Tokyo Auto Show
BD

I remember the IS launching in mid-June 2013 after a January 9, 2013 reveal. It was barely spied in September 2012. I really hope May 2017 isn't correct. In Japan, only the Tokyo Auto Salon runs annually. The Tokyo Auto Show only falls on "odd-numbered" years, thus isn't taking place in 2016, so that only leaves L.A. 2016 and NAIAS 2017. That is just terrible, if true. We have been waiting about 6 years for this, especially since the lame duck 4LS refresh in 2009 and placeholding facelift in 2012. Well, at least we get to see a concept in the meantime.

The Tokyo Auto show is bi-yearly, that's the thing. If it doesn't debut as a concept this year then they won't be able to show it in Japan in 2016. The Tokyo Auto Salon is a modified car show and there is no way it would debut there in Japan.

.....patiently awaits LS F.......

Exactly, it's bi-yearly and only falls on odd-numbered years. The S-Class was supposed to go on sale in late 2012 originally and debut at Paris 2012, but then was pushed back to a July 2013 launch and Frankfurt 2013 reveal instead. I really hope I am wrong and this isn't case. As much as I want to dismiss the Mag-X and co. magazine dates as inaccurate, they are often correct. They got production dates for the 3IS, RC, NX, 4RX, and now LC correct.

Japanese magazines no longer point towards a late 2016 launch, so it sounds like Lexus is opting to preview it well ahead of launch, a la Infiniti Q80 Inspiration. Difference is, the design of the 5LS ended well over a year ago and the production Q80 had barely wrapped up design work by it's Paris showing last year (due in 2017?). A LF-LS Concept is a reverse-engineering.