Lexus LS rides new BOSE Suspension

[meth.ix]

I found a YouTube video of a car suspension developed by BOSE. Yes, the speaker company. They tested it on an old LS and compared it to the conventional suspension of the LS. It seems to be using some really fancy technology and it would be the perfect suspension for a new LS, but apparently it weighs too much and is too costly so it won't be put on any production vehicles anytime soon until one of these problems are solved with our super-fast evolving technology. Oh, and did I mention this suspension enables cars to hop?Here are some details on how the suspension works from CNET:

Back in the 1980s, Bose began working on a secret project that it hoped would change the automobile forever: an electromagnetic car-suspension system, code-named Project Sound.

The system was designed to anticipate and rise above bumps in the road, a little like riding on a magic carpet. It was the brainchild of Amar Bose, the founder of the company who died in 2013.

Current CEO Bob Maresca was lured to work at Bose in 1986 by the ambition of the project.

"I wouldn't have come up here [Bose] if there wasn't a chance it was impossible," he told CNET in alengthy interview.

Maresca worked 11 years on the project, which was a technical success but a commercial flop. The suspension system was too heavy and too expensive for automakers to incorporate into their vehicles without a radical redesign (the extra weight also didn't help gas mileage). Plenty were enamored with the performance and said it was the best-riding car they'd ever been in. Jaguar, Mercedes, Honda and Ferrari were all interested. But once they crunched the numbers, they always left Bose at the altar.

Although Bose used what it learned to create Bose Ride, a special car seat for truckers, the Project Sound suspension system remains indefinitely garaged. Nowadays it's only brought out for a seldom-seen demo.

Here are two videos:
It really sucks that BOSE won't be able to sell it to car companies because it would easily give a car like the LS a HUGE edge over its competition as it would easily be the car with the most comfortable ride.

 

[meth.ix]

If the suspension cost only 20k more than the regular suspension, Lexus could still afford to have it since it would still be in the same price range as an S-Class (possibly still a lower price)! Rolls-Royce or Bentley wouldn't care about the price or weight since their cars are already heavy and hella expensive. And weight and price won't stop people in the Middle-East from buying them.

 

[mmcartalk]

Don't want to take the thread too far off-topic (and some of you might laugh at hardware more than a half-century old), but some of the most comfortable automotive suspensions and seats ever designed were put on the 1950s/60s-vintage French Citroens. They operated by hydraulics and pumps, and produced an uncannily smooth ride even over the worst bumps. Jay Leno explains it quite well in tis video.

 

[CIF]

That Bose system has been known about for many years. Sorry to burst your bubble, but Mercedes already beat Lexus (and Bose) to the punch with Magic Body Control in the current S Class.


Mercedes then further refined the system in the S Class Coupe, which has Active Curve Tilting added to the Magic Body Control:


The Active Curve Tilting refinement negates the centrifugal force during turns and cornering, so therefore making the ride more comfortable, and the overall ride experience feel more level even when in a turn or through corners.

Regarding the Citroen DS, it's truly a revolutionary suspension system, and was the first of its kind, but technically it's different than the Mercedes system even if both systems produce very similar results. The Citroen system is reactive, while the Mercedes system is predictive. Also in heavy bumps, you can see the body does sway a tiny bit on the Citreon. A further refinement of the Citroen system has been the hydractive systems in use in modern Citroens today.

Toyota in the late 80s debuted a system called Active Control Suspension System, which was an electronically-controlled hydropneumatic suspension system. Very similar in concept to Mercedes' Active Body Control, but predated the Mercedes system for 10 years. This system provides an almost-flat ride on various bumps and bad roads. For reasons unknown, Toyota never used the system after the late 80s/early 90s.

All in all, there are varying degrees of "active" suspension systems that have been made over the decades in the industry. Currently there is no system that exists that is 100% active, but the Mercedes Magic Body Control comes closest. The Citroen Hydractive system I would say comes second. The Citroen system today is electronically controlled as well, but it cannot react and negate centrifugal forces in turns and corners like the Mercedes system can.

So when it comes to comfort and luxury in suspension systems, Mercedes as of today is the leader

 

[mmcartalk]

So when it comes to comfort and luxury in suspension systems, Mercedes as of today is the leader

In general, Consumer Reports (a publication I generally have a lot of respect for) agrees with that. Just several years ago, though, I'd say that crown would have gone to BMW, with Mercedes as a close second. But, of course, BMW has recently reworked their suspensions and chassis, taking at least part of that former uniqueness with it.

 

[CIF]

In general, Consumer Reports (a publication I generally have a lot of respect for) agrees with that. Just several years ago, though, I'd say that crown would have gone to BMW, with Mercedes as a close second. But, of course, BMW has recently reworked their suspensions and chassis, taking at least part of that former uniqueness with it.

Personally disagree. A few years ago, before Magic Body Control debuted from Benz, the comfort crown certainly was held by Citroen's special suspension.

 

[mmcartalk]

Personally disagree. A few years ago, before Magic Body Control debuted from Benz, the comfort crown certainly was held by Citroen's special suspension.

Agreed, but from our point of view (and, yes, perhaps I could have re-worded it), I was referring to vehicles available in the American market. Citroens for a number of reasons, have not been available here for decades.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

You could make one hell of a sequel to the champagne glasses commercial with a setup like this.

Comparing the videos here, Bose's software looked to be better sorted than Benz's, but software's sort of an ongoing sore spot for a lot of makes.

 

[CIF]

The key difference being that the Bose system is a pure prototype, while the Benz system is a full production system. Due to the high weight and high cost of the Bose system, it never made it to production. More importantly, Lexus is firmly behind Benz at the current moment on this technology.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I get it, you think everything Mercedes does is a flawless benchmark I think there are cracks in their armor that can be exploited.

 

[CIF]

I get it, you think everything Mercedes does is a flawless benchmark I think there are cracks in their armor that can be exploited.

Lol, not really. Ask anyone on these forums who know me, I'm not a Mercedes fan at all. However I have great respect for what Mercedes did with the current S Class, implementing a number of features and technologies that truly moved the luxury needle forward. Features and technologies that are truly useful in everyday life, and not trendy gimmicks. I can only wish at this point for the 5LS to match or exceed this achievement.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

As a practical matter, even if Lexus was offering this setup, I'd wait a generation and see how it holds up. Trick suspensions historically don't have a great record; I've heard of many cases where they blow out in a year or 3 and it's a few thousand to fix (or give up and fit standard shocks).

Also, I strongly suspect Toyota/Lexus is shy about giving the computer more control, particularly in the wake of the big Chrysler vulnerability where people could fully remote-drive many of their cars. I believe but can't prove this is why the LS's self-parking only lasted a year or two even though the feature now appears regularly on much, much lower-end cars. If you lack that feature any theoretical hackers can't control your steering or gas pedal.

 

[mmcartalk]

Trick suspensions historically don't have a great record; I've heard of many cases where they blow out in a year or 3 and it's a few thousand to fix (or give up and fit standard shocks).

One of the best examples of that is on older Lincolns (especially the Town Car) where the air-suspensions fail and the car sags unevenly. It happened so often that Ford developed a low-cost kit to convert the vehicles back to conventional suspensions......which was actually cheaper, in many cases, than repairs/replacement of the relatively expensive air-system.

Back in the 1990s, Infiniti offered the big Q45 flagship with an active-suspension (Q45a) that was pulled shortly thereafter from lack of sales, though it seems unclear if that version's low sales was actually due to the suspension, or to the fact that the Q45's marketing itself was messed up from Day One, and the vehicle, as a whole, never sold well. Still, regardless of the reason, very few Q45a's were actually sold.

Also, I strongly suspect Toyota/Lexus is shy about giving the computer more control, particularly in the wake of the big Chrysler vulnerability where people could fully remote-drive many of their cars. I believe but can't prove this is why the LS's self-parking only lasted a year or two even though the feature now appears regularly on much, much lower-end cars. If you lack that feature any theoretical hackers can't control your steering or gas pedal.

I remember reviewing a new LS when that self-parking feature first debuted on it (at that time, even setting it up through the controls was rather complex, and I had to get some help from the Lexus reps there). I was shocked when the next vehicle to get that feature as an option was not one of the LS's expensive luxury-competitors, but the lowly Ford Focus compact, a borderline econobox.

 

[CIF]

As a practical matter, even if Lexus was offering this setup, I'd wait a generation and see how it holds up. Trick suspensions historically don't have a great record; I've heard of many cases where they blow out in a year or 3 and it's a few thousand to fix (or give up and fit standard shocks).

Also, I strongly suspect Toyota/Lexus is shy about giving the computer more control, particularly in the wake of the big Chrysler vulnerability where people could fully remote-drive many of their cars. I believe but can't prove this is why the LS's self-parking only lasted a year or two even though the feature now appears regularly on much, much lower-end cars. If you lack that feature any theoretical hackers can't control your steering or gas pedal.

Well German luxury brands are certainly not known for reliability. However that still doesn't excuse Lexus from being so behind Mercedes. These two points are independent of one another.

Lexus does offer air suspension for example, just as the Germans do. While the German brands are known for failing air suspensions and expensive related repairs, the Lexus systems are more reliable. The Lexus systems are not perfect, but they're pretty much as reliable as it gets on the market today with regards to air suspensions.

I cannot comment on hacking being a possible reason. There is varying levels of evidence though that hacking can occur through Bluetooth connections, or even TPMS sensors in vehicles. Lexus vehicles have had such connections and sensors for many years now. Also regarding Toyota's ECU security, it's famously known among car enthusiasts that Toyota ECUs have never been hacked/cracked. That is why aftermarket powertrain mods are quite limited on most Toyota/Lexus models. So I'm not sure all the evidence out there supports the idea Toyota is worried about hacking. It seems inconclusive at best. Such an idea would also conflict with the strong R&D research that Toyota is currently doing into autonomous vehicles, with them currently testing some semi-autonomous technologies. Furthermore, this idea is under serious question given the fact that modern Lexus vehicles have technologies such as VSC, VDIM, and more recently pre-collision and lane keep assist technologies. If Toyota was worried about hacking, and that was the reason they got rid of the self-parking feature, then Toyota would be equally worried about hackers gaining control of VSC, VDIM, pre-collision, or lane keep assist technologies. Hackers having control of these technologies could easily make you lose control of your vehicle or result in a crash, even if it's not total and direct control of acceleration, braking, and steering.

I truly don't know why Lexus got rid of the self-parking feature, but if I had to guess, maybe the technology wasn't perfect, or maybe there were safety/liability reasons.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Also regarding Toyota's ECU security, it's famously known among car enthusiasts that Toyota ECUs have never been hacked/cracked. That is why aftermarket powertrain mods are quite limited on most Toyota/Lexus models.

I'm a programmer by trade, with 22 years of professional experience. During the Toyota phantom acceleration trial, a lot of alleged technical facts about their ECU software came out that were extremely unfavorable to Toyota, and I took a lot of crap from co-workers based on it (or I did until their BMW broke down and my LS came to the rescue). If you believe the reports, the code is so poorly written and structured that only one man really understands it, and touching any parameter can cause subtle ripple effects in 4 or 5 others. That would keep aftermarket guys who understand US liability laws far, far away.

Now, I don't think that's 100% true, but it does potentially explain the general lack of major new powertrains and powertrain features (Valvematic) from Toyota and Lexus in the last 4-5 years: maybe they've got someone who's actually heard of software engineering creating new ECU software to higher standards, while still delivering the same smoothness as the old code. And maybe built-in support for the Lexus Safety System+ features is part of this theoretical new codebase, which is what reduced the cost to the point where they *can* be standard across the full lineup. But this really is just speculation.

That all said, none of this impacts the topic; Bose did it without any ECU involvement, and I'd guess MB's system probably is also completely separate.

 

[CIF]

There's no way the S Class system is completely separate from the ECU. Regardless, the Bose system, despite decades of development work, still remains seemingly unfeasible for production due to weight and cost.