Is the car bubble going to burst?

Och

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High end cars will accumulate in the hands of wealth.

Normal cars will be an economic drag on peoples lives while car companies cater more and more to whoever the most $/IQ customers are. The stupider and the richer the better. See: nations built on resource wealth.

Stupid people with money are the ideal target.

You know, like people who have slave labor but will drop millions on a license plate.

Ridiculous as usual, but fine, I'll bite. There is always going to exist a market that caters to the super rich, it is relatively miniscule in the grand scheme of things, and if you think it is the concern, you just don't understand how the world works.

What matters is that the middle class is disappearing and big corporations no longer care about providing fair service/product catering to the middle class, they are just out to bleed us to the last drop. The formation of the middle class was a short lived 20th century phenomenon in the West, particularly in the US, and we were absolutely spoiled, especially when it came to cars.

As someone raised in the former USSR, I remember people would have to save up for years and wait for years on the waiting list to get a crappy Lada - quite a drastic difference to the US where not too long ago you could lease a Camcordtima for less than $200 a month, which is less than a days worth of wages for most of the middle class workers. Long before the pandemic I was saying such spoils will soon come to the end, and they did. People will just have to get used to spending ever increasing portion of their incomes on cars and related expenses.
 
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What matters is that the middle class is disappearing and big corporations no longer care about providing fair service/product catering to the middle class, they are just out to bleed us to the last drop. The formation of the middle class was a short lived 20th century phenomenon in the West, particularly in the US, and we were absolutely spoiled, especially when it came to cars.
This is very true. Manufacturers and companies truly did care about the customer before and actually had a sense of patriotism by serving their own people. I would say that even ~15 years ago we had it really good. It just took a free-fall from there.
As someone raised in the former USSR, I remember people would have to save up for years and wait for years on the waiting list to get a crappy Lada - quite a drastic difference to the US where not too long ago you could lease a Camcordtima for less than $200 a month, which is less than a days worth of wages for most of the middle class workers. Long before the pandemic I was saying such spoils will soon come to the end, and they did. People will just have to get used to spending ever increasing portion of their incomes on cars and related expenses.
As someone who's ancestral homeland was one of the most powerful countries in the world and is now a genuine sh*thole, they do the exact same BS there. To top that, if you were to have people that were upset with the government being slow delivering their cars they would then routinely be beat up by the police. In other words, they pretty much would scam you. They'd also lie that if you want your car delivered, then they'd ask for more money so they can "expedite the process" (lol), only for them to scam you again and leave you empty-handed. We have it really good here, but that's about to fade away.

The Western world is teetering to that point. If you're not an established individual (i.e. have a fully paid-for home, or have a cheap mortgage, and have a decent paying job), then cars (including sports and luxury cars) are becoming a luxury in their own right like overpriced designer products meant for the filthy rich. Heck, we now have dealers that price gouge the living hell out of you, making the car-buying experience all that more miserable. The dealership model needs to die, or be heavily reformed.

@Gecko if it's fine, we'll try to stay out of politics but I feel like this is a great discourse on the greater issues that's going on in our world and is ruining the automotive industry downstream of it. So, please leave it up. :)
 

Och

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This is very true. Manufacturers and companies truly did care about the customer before and actually had a sense of patriotism by serving their own people. I would say that even ~15 years ago we had it really good. It just took a free-fall from there.

As someone who's ancestral homeland was one of the most powerful countries in the world and is now a genuine sh*thole, they do the exact same BS there. To top that, if you were to have people that were upset with the government being slow delivering their cars they would then routinely be beat up by the police. In other words, they pretty much would scam you. They'd also lie that if you want your car delivered, then they'd ask for more money so they can "expedite the process" (lol), only for them to scam you again and leave you empty-handed. We have it really good here, but that's about to fade away.

The Western world is teetering to that point. If you're not an established individual (i.e. have a fully paid-for home, or have a cheap mortgage, and have a decent paying job), then cars (including sports and luxury cars) are becoming a luxury in their own right like overpriced designer products meant for the filthy rich. Heck, we now have dealers that price gouge the living hell out of you, making the car-buying experience all that more miserable. The dealership model needs to die, or be heavily reformed.

Its not just cars, whatever few huge corporations have cornered the market, and a corporate monopoly in capitalist system is not much different than government monopoly in a socialist system. I don't want to veer too far into the whole "you'll own nothing (definitely true) and be happy (certainly not true)" subject, but with regard to mainstream cars they may not gouge you on the initial purchase, but the level of service will continue to greatly diminish while cost increases drastically. Most cars are becoming not repairable by independent mechanics, and dealers will absolutely rape consumers much worse than most people even realize. Wait until the current crop of cars ages and start breaking down, its going to be a blood bath, lol.
 

CRSKTN

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Ridiculous as usual, but fine, I'll bite. There is always going to exist a market that caters to the super rich, it is relatively miniscule in the grand scheme of things, and if you think it is the concern, you just don't understand how the world works.

I am literally paid for my understanding of the world and have used it to co-found & lift 4 separate companies which have all gone to have successful financings and move into commerciality at scale, and done +$2.5B of advisory / M&A / financings in my career so far. So no, i have a pretty good grasp, thanks.

If you go to other nations, you'll see how big the wealth gap gets over time. Companies cater to capital, not people.

Nothing i said is wrong: Accumulation of capital will include accumulation of physical assets including high end cars, which like art are status symbols and a commodity in that community in their own right.

There have never been as many different super cars, hyper cars and high end luxury cars as there are now. Both in terms of sales & in terms of diversity, cost, etc.

Regular cars will continue to be an increasingly expensive burden on people as credit and budgets are stretched by "aspirational buyers" wiling to pay for the perceived status while people who need a car for utility will deal with an inflated used car market as a result. In some places you need to spend a fortune even to land a Toyota Camry with plates & reg.

And what I said about companies catering to whoever the highest paying group is who can fully utilize their capacity, who have the lowest standards.

Nothing about that is controversial. Companies chase capital efficiencies, and the less you have to spend on CAC, the more the margin you can charge, the less working capital you need, the better.

And what you said about the "superrich" is idiotic. They literally control the vast majority of capital and deploy it into cars in huge $ amounts, through single relationships with easier sales process & repeat buying. The global supercar market is going to exceed $35 billion dollars in the next few years, with huge margins and huge capital efficiencies.

Companies like Porsche, Ferrari, etc have margins over 20% while the rest of the market is bouncing around the 3% - 7% range IF they're good and competitive. So that means that $35B delivers margins of $7B while you'd have to sell $200B+ of cars assuming a high margin just to match it. Toyota only does about $300B a year of top line and that includes everything.

Beyond their margins, their capital expenditures on a diverse lineup of normal cars is huge. Regular cars aren't necessarily cheaper to develop, they run multiple models in parallel and will easily spend a billion or more on a single car release.

Toyota also spends $25 - $35 BILLION PER YEAR on capital expenditures. So they spend $20B+, to generate $21B at 7%.

Ferrari does $200 - $400 MILLION per year of capex. That's literally 1 / 100th of Toyota. To generate 3x the margin. They did almost $7B in revenue. At 20% that's $1.4B on that limited spend per year. That's 3.5x the capital spend, or 1% of Toyota's spend to generate 7% of Toyota's margin.
Toyota would have to generate $20B in sales to match that, and that $20B would take $2+ billion of annual capex.

And Toyota has the best margins vs the other large OEMs.

And that doesn't look at the dealer network, etc that you have to put up with and all that supply chain management & relationship management.

Instead, these companies increasingly are creating bespoke divisions where you can make insane custom cars with price tags for individual units that match entire deployments of other models.

Nobody is starting new companies selling cheap cars in the west. Everyone is moving up market to cater to the money & to capture as much margin as they can for as little outlay as they can.

Who wants to spend more time and energy developing and selling for smaller margins, when you can do less and get more?

Who would want to sell Camry's when you could be getting paid on Ferrari's?
 
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carguy420

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What's really unique about the US car market is the really low spread in price from cheap cars to luxury cars. Cheap cars are too expensive and luxury cars are too cheap.

A commuter car cost about $30k, a mainstream SUV about $45k, but a luxury full size limousine only cost $120k, just 4x the price of a commuter car or less than 3x of a mainstream SUV.

In other markets like China that ratio is over 20x and similarly in Japan over 10x, in developing nations that could be over 50x.
Asia and developing markets pretty much get raped over any products that are barely any nicer than the most bare bones products.
 

ssun30

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Asia and developing markets pretty much get raped over any products that are barely any nicer than the most bare bones products.
The huge income disparity is probably why. You are either very rich or barely surviving.

Veblen goods work in the opposite direction of normal market. Demand increases when price increases. The Lexus LM's OTD price once reached CN ¥4M at launch.

In developed nations high income middle class increases demand for premium/luxury products, but actually reduces their price because these turn from Veblen goods to normal goods.
 

Flagship1

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While i understand margins are thin and select powertrains just wont work in select markets due to emission regulation and devaluation of brand cache, its amusing to see mercedes salons and cuvs in basic trims and pricing equivalent to a new camry being used as taxis.
 

mikeavelli

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While i understand margins are thin and select powertrains just wont work in select markets due to emission regulation and devaluation of brand cache, its amusing to see mercedes salons and cuvs in basic trims and pricing equivalent to a new camry being used as taxis.

A lot of it was based on volume. The German brands decided to flood the market with cars to make more money. @crkstn explained the margins pretty well. Next thing the big 3 German brands were producing over a million cars a year. Yes many downmarket.

I think in the past year or so they said they will abandon the lower end and focus on higher end. Thus the A class here was canceled. here I think a c class starts at near 50k,

When the CLA debuted, dealers and salespeople hated it because yes it brought a younger customer in but also people who pay less and ask for more and were considered headaches. I got that from multiple sources.
 

Flagship1

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A lot of it was based on volume. The German brands decided to flood the market with cars to make more money. @crkstn explained the margins pretty well. Next thing the big 3 German brands were producing over a million cars a year. Yes many downmarket.

I think in the past year or so they said they will abandon the lower end and focus on higher end. Thus the A class here was canceled. here I think a c class starts at near 50k,

When the CLA debuted, dealers and salespeople hated it because yes it brought a younger customer in but also people who pay less and ask for more and were considered headaches. I got that from multiple sources.
With market headwinds, i wonder if they are rethinking that strategy.

Some data points, Lexus is going aggressive with their non suvs, double digit dealer contributions for the RX, NX which have been hot commodities just a couple of months ago.
 
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mikeavelli

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With market headwinds, i wonder if they are rethinking that strategy.

Some data points, Lexus is going aggressive with their non suvs, double digit dealer contributions for the RX, NX which have been hot commodities just a couple of months ago.


Yeah for the first time in months I see sponsored posts on social advertising the IS and NX (might be others). We also have to admit the competition is fierce and there reslly aren’t many bad products.
 

ssun30

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I just recently realized Toyota charges almost $9000 for the Tacoma "TRD Offroad Premium Package" for a bunch of features that should be standard at the base price. And Lexus charges $8000 for massage seats and hands-free tailgate on the GX550 Overtrail+.

How do you support a company this greedy? That's even more stingy than Porsche which is known for overcharging for basic features.
 

qtb007

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I just recently realized Toyota charges almost $9000 for the Tacoma "TRD Offroad Premium Package" for a bunch of features that should be standard at the base price. And Lexus charges $8000 for massage seats and hands-free tailgate on the GX550 Overtrail+.

How do you support a company this greedy? That's even more stingy than Porsche which is known for overcharging for basic features.
Capitalism, man. They charge what the market will bear just like every other manufacturer. Based on the number of new Tacomas stacking up on lots, the market has spoken and Toyota will correct price now (incentives) and spec later (adding content / adjusting trim builds to make the MSRP more tolerable).
 

Och

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From what I've seen in the reviews, the build quality of the new Tacoma is 90's GM level, really abysmal, and nobody wants the clusterpluck under the hood - the biggest selling points for the Tacoma/4Runner over the decades were simplicity and reliability.
 

Flagship1

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I just recently realized Toyota charges almost $9000 for the Tacoma "TRD Offroad Premium Package" for a bunch of features that should be standard at the base price. And Lexus charges $8000 for massage seats and hands-free tailgate on the GX550 Overtrail+.

How do you support a company this greedy? That's even more stingy than Porsche which is known for overcharging for basic features.
i agree, and part of this new trend is how TMC is rearranging brands

Toyota el cheapo
Crown Toyota Plus
Lexus Minimalist Luxury
Century The RR of Japan

credit @CRSKTN who had a simpler yet funny way of depicting Tmc future strategy.

The other part is that the past couple of years folks as @qtb007 pointed out have paid ridick amount of adms, and Lexus is tired of sitting on the sidelines letting dealers stuff their coffers.

We saw that creep in pricing for instance when the Gx460, at decade old dinosaur creep past the 60k marker for a simple cosmetic package in 2022. Market should self correct. Right now the tgnak platform mates are warranting a response with double digit dealer contributions. Toyota might do the same on the tgnaF end once dealer lots become parking lots.

As an example of this correction type behavior was with last gen GX. At launch the GX went way up in pricing, but during the refresh in 2014, Lexus de-contented the truck and dropped the price by thousands.
 
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carguy420

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I just recently realized Toyota charges almost $9000 for the Tacoma "TRD Offroad Premium Package" for a bunch of features that should be standard at the base price. And Lexus charges $8000 for massage seats and hands-free tailgate on the GX550 Overtrail+.

How do you support a company this greedy? That's even more stingy than Porsche which is known for overcharging for basic features.
I have pretty mixed feelings about Toyota in these recent years, their build quality is kinda iffy sometimes, despite their cars getting more and more expensive, just like many other products on the market these days, plus that whole Daihatsu fiasco in Japan and SEA.
 

Sulu

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While i understand margins are thin and select powertrains just wont work in select markets due to emission regulation and devaluation of brand cache, its amusing to see mercedes salons and cuvs in basic trims and pricing equivalent to a new camry being used as taxis.
Mercedes-Benz E-Class (and earlier predecessors) diesel models have long been used as taxis in Germany and other parts of Europe and the Middle East. If you watch the news coming out of Israel and Palestine, you may notice a large number of 40+ year old MB diesels still running as taxis.

Older MB diesels were known for their reliability and durability, 2 key quality factors for high-mileage taxis.