IS 500 F SPORT Performance Megathread

[shoeboy4]

A pre-owned GS F in great condition is starting to get hard to find.

So true they are disappearing quickly when great ones come up for sale too. Usually, they are sold within a couple of days. I want an IS500 but would love the larger size of the GS-F and I keep going back and forth in my mind about which would be the better buy in the end.

 

[flipside909]

I was thinking about the IS 500 as well as i wanted a sports turned sedan style V8 from Lexus. But the IS series has much less back passenger room than the GS series. I was really surprised when they announced the GS series would be discontinued

Unfortunately the ES grew in size and it started cannibalizing GS sales. Since SUV's are the volume sellers in the industry, it made business sense for Lexus to consolidate their sedan choices. Long live the GS.

 

[Junebugz]

Does anybody have any idea when the pricing might release? Like are we talking right before the car actually is sold or few months before?

 

[supra93]

Lexus IS-F Twin-Turbo V8 Could Be On The Way, Toyota Patent Suggests

A recent Toyota patent for a twin-turbo V8 stokes rumors of a Lexus IS-F, LS-F, and LC-F, as well as a potential Toyota Tundra engine.

www.motor1.com

 

[CRSKTN]

Single turbo version for ISF/RCF?

 

[Levi]

as I said in the other thread, if it happens it will again be last of its kind.


imagine Lexus making the last BEV in 90 years when all will have gone hydrogen....haha

 

[flipside909]

Does anybody have any idea when the pricing might release? Like are we talking right before the car actually is sold or few months before?

Pricing usually releases right before production starts. My guess is August/September.

 

[flipside909]

Single turbo version for ISF/RCF?

Nope.

 

[Ian Schmidt]

I was thinking about the IS 500 as well as i wanted a sports turned sedan style V8 from Lexus. But the IS series has much less back passenger room than the GS series. I was really surprised when they announced the GS series would be discontinued

The bottom line is always that the GS didn't sell. The general car-buying public doesn't care about FWD/RWD, they just know the ES offers more room for less money (and, honestly, the 7th gen ES drives pretty great). And people who *do* know FWD/RWD wanted the German badge. Among non-LE car enthusiasts, the IS always got better mentions than the GS, so it's not surprising which one survived.

 

[flipside909]

The bottom line is always that the GS didn't sell. The general car-buying public doesn't care about FWD/RWD, they just know the ES offers more room for less money (and, honestly, the 7th gen ES drives pretty great). And people who *do* know FWD/RWD wanted the German badge. Among non-LE car enthusiasts, the IS always got better mentions than the GS, so it's not surprising which one survived.

Actually it did sell very well between 2013-2015 because the incentives were strong. You'll be surprised that buyers do know the difference between RWD and FWD. The GS failed because the ES grew in size. There is a certain prestige to having a RWD midsize sedan vs. a FWD midsize sedan.

 

[James]

The bottom line is always that the GS didn't sell. The general car-buying public doesn't care about FWD/RWD, they just know the ES offers more room for less money (and, honestly, the 7th gen ES drives pretty great). And people who *do* know FWD/RWD wanted the German badge. Among non-LE car enthusiasts, the IS always got better mentions than the GS, so it's not surprising which one survived.

Agreed just sad. I love my GS and really do think it is much better than the ES but it was never going to outlive the ES and you need the IS for a smaller car choice.

 

[supra93]

I think the GS just fell victim to neglect & just typical sales drop throughout a lifecycle. Sales weren't that much different from the previous generation. As others have said with a larger ES and the move to CUVs Lexus probably just didn't want to commit to another generation.

Lexus GS Sales Figures

Automotive Sales Data and Statistics

www.goodcarbadcar.net

S190

2005	33,457
2006	31,115
2007	25,448
2008	17,190
2009	7,430
2010	7,059
2011	3,746

L10

2012	24,555
2013	19,742
2014	22,198
2015	23,117
2016	14,878
2017	7,773
2018	6,604
2019	3,378
2020	2,560

 

[Ian Schmidt]

Actually it did sell very well between 2013-2015 because the incentives were strong. You'll be surprised that buyers do know the difference between RWD and FWD. The GS failed because the ES grew in size. There is a certain prestige to having a RWD midsize sedan vs. a FWD midsize sedan.

I'm not sure "it sold well when there was a lot of cash on the hood" is actually an argument for the GS's popularity. As the sales figures show, the final-gen GS debuted to 1/3rd lower sales than the previous generation's debut and it only really did well when the incentives were piled high.

Now, I like the GS a lot, but it had that classic tweener thing going, where it was kind of "what you buy if you can't afford an LS but the ES isn't lux enough". (Or worse, "Lexus has to have this because the 5 Series exists"). The GS-F definitely gave it something extra, but Lexus never really found that extra for the non-F car.

 

[flipside909]

I'm not sure "it sold well when there was a lot of cash on the hood" is actually an argument for the GS's popularity. As the sales figures show, the final-gen GS debuted to 1/3rd lower sales than the previous generation's debut and it only really did well when the incentives were piled high.

Now, I like the GS a lot, but it had that classic tweener thing going, where it was kind of "what you buy if you can't afford an LS but the ES isn't lux enough". (Or worse, "Lexus has to have this because the 5 Series exists"). The GS-F definitely gave it something extra, but Lexus never really found that extra for the non-F car.

I've followed 4th Gen GS sales from the start and even leased a GS 350 F SPORT in 2015. I was at the global debut of the GS along with @krew. It had all the right ingredients to be successful, but the minute the ES grew due to China's needs, the GS started to drop off. It was one of the best driving cars we had, more so than the IS F.

The reason for high sales for the 4th Generation initially, Lexus had a sales goal to hit. If they hit it, the LC would be produced. The GS product planners didn't do enough to keep the car interesting throughout it's lifecycle instead, they were toying around the idea of an ES F SPORT for the 2013 model year. The GS is a wonderful car with a great chassis. The GS F should have had at least 500hp and priced in the mid $70k range to be taken seriously in that market. It had potential. To date, I prefer driving feel of the GS F over my 2020 RC F, even with the suspension/steering updates.

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

People just seem to prefer smaller size 4 door sedans more. Cars have gotten so big already. That is why they sell a lot more than large sedans. Easier to maneuver and handle with a shorter wheelbase. BMW sells a lot more 3-series than it does 5-series. It can offer best of both worlds. You get 4-door practicality with easy access to the rear and usable rear seat as well as you can get all of the sportiness/performance/rigidity of a small equal size 2-door coupe. I myself wanted a 2nd gen ISF (or RCF sedan) with this 2UR, Then, I had to rethink my strategy when Lexus decided not to come out with it. Finally, now the IS500 F-Sport is a step in the right direction. I am sure it is going to sell surprisingly well. They should bring on the ISF already.

 

[Levi]

The GS also debuted the semi-spindle grill, and customers were not acceptant of it. When all models got the full spindle grill and customers had no choice or finally adopted the new styling, most remembered the GS as something they did not like. It could grow on customers, but the first impression was quite strong as it started a new kind of new identity. The facelift did not do the GS any favors, it looks to afterthought/life-support.

 

[flipside909]

People just seem to prefer smaller size 4 door sedans more. Cars have gotten so big already. That is why they sell a lot more than large sedans. Easier to maneuver and handle with a shorter wheelbase. BMW sells a lot more 3-series than it does 5-series. It can offer best of both worlds. You get 4-door practicality with easy access to the rear and usable rear seat as well as you can get all of the sportiness/performance/rigidity of a small equal size 2-door coupe. I myself wanted a 2nd gen ISF (or RCF sedan) with this 2UR, Then, I had to rethink my strategy when Lexus decided not to come out with it. Finally, now the IS500 F-Sport is a step in the right direction. I am sure it is going to sell surprisingly well. They should bring on the ISF already.

Maybe in Canada, but not here in the United States. True cars have grown in size over the years, but that's thanks to things like beefier structures for passenger and pedestrian protections. The GS is a better balanced car than the IS, especially on the track.

The IS 500 F SPORT Performance is basically your 4 door RC F less the Brembos and BBS forged wheels (not LE) with a better chassis.

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

Maybe in Canada, but not here in the United States. True cars have grown in size over the years, but that's thanks to things like beefier structures for passenger and pedestrian protections. The GS is a better balanced car than the IS, especially on the track.

The IS 500 F SPORT Performance is basically your 4 door RC F less the Brembos and BBS forged wheels (not LE) with a better chassis.

I expressed my personal opinion especially as a buyer in the market in 2017 and not to argue with you. Those are my personal thoughts. Like I said the sales of the 3-series vs 5-series speak for themselves and it has nothing to do with the region.

The differences between IS500 and RCF are more than what you quote, but I am not going to go into those. RCF has significantly more chassis strengthening hardware over the IS500. It does not have the cooling systems of the RCF and certainly the damper/springs are not yet known. Available TVD etc. Once the IS500 pulls close to 1.00 g objectively on the skidpad then we can put some significance into that thought, but until then like Lexus said it is not a full blown F car.

 

[flipside909]

I expressed my personal opinion especially as a buyer in the market in 2017 and not to argue with you. Those are my personal thoughts. Like I said the sales of the 3-series vs 5-series speak for themselves and it has nothing to do with the region.

The differences between IS500 and RCF are more than what you quote, but I am not going to go into those. RCF has significantly more chassis strengthening hardware over the IS500. It does not have the cooling systems of the RCF and certainly the damper/springs are not yet known. Available TVD etc. Once the IS500 pulls close to 1.00 g objectively on the skidpad then we can put some significance into that thought, but until then like Lexus said it is not a full blown F car.

The RC F has more chassis reinforcements because it was designed to be a convertible, hence the large rocker panels and reinforcements. The RC chassis is a mix of 3 different chassis (GS, IS and IS C). It is front heavy which is why has a tendency to plow and understeer in corners. TVD is just a mask to cover up the chassis' shortfalls. It's a great grand tourer but not a great track car. I'd rather track a GS F over an RC F.

I expect the IS 500 to perform better than the RC F...with or without a transmission oil cooler. Don't discount the fact that the IS 500 F SPORT Performance is not a full blown F car. It still has the same engine and transmission as my 2020 RC F. I have a little bit more insight on these cars than most. The new Lexus Driving Signature, surely has better suspension and steering feel than the RC F. I expect it to be better in the IS 500 F SPORT Performance. Proof is with the 2021 IS 350 F SPORT DHP. I had a chance to drive this pretty hard during the Lexus Performance Driving School in Austin. I was pretty impressed how nimble the car felt and very composed on uneven surfaces. You should experience it for yourself. The RC F is now a 6 year old car with older tech if you think about it.

 

[Faisal Sheikh]

The RC F has more chassis reinforcements in the rocker panel area because the RC was designed to be a convertible...but never happened. The RC chassis is a mix of 3 different chassis...in which is behaves on the track the way it does. It's front heavy and is prone to understeer. TVD is just a mask to cover up the chassis' shortfalls.

I expect the IS 500 to perform better than the RC F...with or without a transmission oil cooler. Don't discount the fact that the IS 500 F SPORT Performance is not a full blown F car. And with the new Lexus Driving Signature, it will surely have better suspension and steering feel than the RC F. Proof is in the 2021 IS 350 F SPORT Performance. You should experience it for yourself. The RC F is now a 6 year old car. Sorry.

LIke I said, you continue to misrepresent the facts. The RCF also has a 10-point brace in the rear that the IS500 F-Sport does not have. It also has shock tower braces in the front that the IS500 (or the GSF) did not have. All of those chassis strengthening were done in order to make it worthy or racing homologation, which is what it was built for. Those are Yaguchi's words. You are saying it is front heavy, but when you look at the engine placement of the RCF, it is not any different. The weight distribution is the same 54/46 for the LSD and 53/47 for the TVD one. Shorter wheel base naturally responds faster so it will naturally have easier understeer/oversteer tendencies. Still, understeer is not something reserved for the RCF. The GSF has understeer as well. It is with TVD, you are able to get the rear end to rotate easily.

I drove both GSF and RCF TVD before I made my decision. Like I said, GSF felt big and much softer compared to the RCF, which is why I decided not go with my first option of getting GSF and went with the coupe despite not being a coupe guy. If I wanted more comfort and more space, I would have taken the GSF. The size is simply something you cannot mask. It is just physics. You are critical of the TVD, but is what makes the GSF handle much better than it should. All of the reviews give TVD the credit. There is a reason why Lexus never made an LSD GSF.

I have driven the 2016 - 2017 IS350 F-Sport extensively back in the day and the new IS350 is a modification of the same chassis. You seem very impressed with it, but C&D was not impressed with the handling calling the chassis 'flimsy' and saying even a Camry TRD had better handling than it.

Again, like I said before, RCF with TVD had a lateral grip of almost 1.00g. No Lexus this side of the LFA has accomplished it so far and until we see some actual numbers, those are just your biased claims.