5th Generation Toyota RAV4 Master Thread

Messages
755
Reaction score
1,244
Hopefully they put in the Camry's new 4-cylinder engine along with that 8-speed automatic. And please...... bring back that legendary RAV-4 V6. :heart_eyes:
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
1,833
Reaction score
4,160
I just realized that FAW/Toyota posts all of its biddings online when acquiring tooling for new models (probably required by the government). This basically lets out all the inside information on its projects:
http://www.chinabidding.com/bidDetail/231512912.html
This is one of a series of RFPs for tooling for production of the TNGA RAV4, posted roughly a month ago. There is usually a 12-month gap between RFP for tooling and Job One. So this RAV4 will emerge some time in 2019 as a 2020 model.

There are also RFPs for tooling for the "new generation Corolla" since June 2017. Considering the current generation Corolla is not that old, I believe this is more likely a facelift than an actual update but possibly incorporating some TNGA concepts.

Hopefully they put in the Camry's new 4-cylinder engine along with that 8-speed automatic. And please...... bring back that legendary RAV-4 V6. :heart_eyes:
First one is guaranteed. Second one no chance.
 
Last edited:
Messages
755
Reaction score
1,244
Yeah, but it was amazing how they put a V6 in their smallest platform (MC platform, ignoring Prius C). Imagine if someone put that massive 3.5L V6 in the Corolla (crazy I know). Clearly many people bought them, I see so many V6 RAV-4's it makes me think why WOULD'NT they make it again. I know they are more geared to fuel economy, but the current generation in terms of quality and performance was very lackluster.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
1,833
Reaction score
4,160
Yeah, but it was amazing how they put a V6 in their smallest platform (MC platform, ignoring Prius C). Imagine if someone put that massive 3.5L V6 in the Corolla (crazy I know). Clearly many people bought them, I see so many V6 RAV-4's it makes me think why WOULD'NT they make it again. I know they are more geared to fuel economy, but the current generation in terms of quality and performance was very lackluster.
For most people the 2.5 is enough, especially when updated with Dynamic Force next year. If there's any possibility for a higher power RAV4, it will probably use a 2.0 turbo. But I doubt it since they do not want the RAV4 to encroach into NX's territory.

One thing that I believe they do need a lot of work on, is a proper AWD system. The capability of current generaiton RAV4 is embarrassing especially considering the '4' in the name stands for 4WD.
 

CIF

Expert
Premium Member
Messages
1,655
Reaction score
1,808
Yeah a V6 in the Rav4 won't happen. Toyota, like virtually every other automaker, has jumped on the powertrain downsizing bandwagon. We can be thankful that Toyota isn't downsizing as much as other competitors, but that's not saying much. The Camry for example still has a V6, but you now have to pay a considerable premium for it. Gone are the 'glory days' of the 2000s when many Toyota and Lexus models had standard or optional large engines. The Rav4 had an optional V6, the 4Runner had an optional V8, the Lexus GS (regular model) had an optional V8, and the Lexus LS had a standard V8. Gone are those days, and it's likely we may never see those days again at Toyota Motor Co.

One thing that I believe they do need a lot of work on, is a proper AWD system. The capability of current generaiton RAV4 is embarrassing especially considering the '4' in the name stands for 4WD.
While I agree that Toyota definitely needs a better 'standard' AWD system, the current Rav4 is hardly embarrassing. In real-world tests, the current Rav4 performs better than the CR-V off-road, its direct competitor in the market. Now the CR-V, and many Honda products in general I would definitely say deserve the title of embarrassing AWD systems. The only exception is Honda's excellent SH-AWD system. That though is only available on a select few Acura models, and not available on any Honda models (in North America at least).
 
Last edited:
Messages
755
Reaction score
1,244
Yeah a V6 in the Rav4 won't happen. Toyota, like virtually every other automaker, has jumped on the powertrain downsizing bandwagon. We can be thankful that Toyota isn't downsizing as much as other competitors, but that's not saying much. The Camry for example still has a V6, but you now have to pay a considerable premium for it. Gone are the 'glory days' of the 2000s when many Toyota and Lexus models had standard or optional large engines. The Rav4 had an optional V6, the 4Runner had an optional V8, the Lexus GS had an optional V8, and the Lexus LS had a standard V8. Gone are those days, and it's likely we may never see those days again at Toyota Motor Co.



While I agree that Toyota definitely needs a better 'standard' AWD system, the current Rav4 is hardly embarrassing. In real-world tests, the current Rav4 performs better than the CR-V off-road, its direct competitor in the market. Now the CR-V, and many Honda products in general I would definitely say deserve the title of embarrassing AWD systems. The only exception is Honda's excellent SH-AWD system. That though is only available on a select few Acura models, and not available on any Honda models (in North America at least).
I wholeheartedly agree with that. I really do think Toyota are capable of creating an excellent AWD system having knowledge of their AWD systems in WRC and the WEC. Let's hope for the best @CIF
 

CIF

Expert
Premium Member
Messages
1,655
Reaction score
1,808
What's ironic is that Toyota has some amazing 4WD/4x4 systems and off-road terrain management systems on their body-on-frame vehicles. The current Land Cruiser arguably has the best overall 4WD/4x4 and terrain management system in any consumer production vehicle. I think only a couple of hardcore off-road vehicles on the market are of even similar capability.

Yet Toyota's AWD system for unibody vehicles has been only average at best for many years. Given Toyota has a significant ownership stake in Subaru, one has to wonder if this is all on purpose not to eat into Subaru's sales too much.
 
Messages
755
Reaction score
1,244
But even though Toyota has a share in Subaru, shouldn't they share technologies and ideas with one another? That's how the twins were born and they were a massive success. However, I do like where you're going with the sales argument. With the twins, Toyota/Scion has more sales than Subaru. I wonder if this has anything to do with the AWD system that they may not be developing. As you know, Subaru's main selling point for most of their was the capabilities that trick AWD system.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
1,833
Reaction score
4,160
Yeah a V6 in the Rav4 won't happen. Toyota, like virtually every other automaker, has jumped on the powertrain downsizing bandwagon. We can be thankful that Toyota isn't downsizing as much as other competitors, but that's not saying much. The Camry for example still has a V6, but you now have to pay a considerable premium for it. Gone are the 'glory days' of the 2000s when many Toyota and Lexus models had standard or optional large engines. The Rav4 had an optional V6, the 4Runner had an optional V8, the Lexus GS (regular model) had an optional V8, and the Lexus LS had a standard V8. Gone are those days, and it's likely we may never see those days again at Toyota Motor Co.

While I agree that Toyota definitely needs a better 'standard' AWD system, the current Rav4 is hardly embarrassing. In real-world tests, the current Rav4 performs better than the CR-V off-road, its direct competitor in the market. Now the CR-V, and many Honda products in general I would definitely say deserve the title of embarrassing AWD systems. The only exception is Honda's excellent SH-AWD system. That though is only available on a select few Acura models, and not available on any Honda models (in North America at least).
It seems that in the future they will charge increasing amount of premium for more cylinders. Eight for the halo car, six for luxury, while its bread and butter will move to four cylinders only. I won't be surprised if 7ES debuts with a 2.5 turbo 4 instead of the highly anticipated 3.0 V6TT, we can still hope though...(think about it, a 2.5 turbo 4 makes a lot more sense for its light trucks and SUVs).

We should appreciate their decency to not put inline-3s everywhere. At least we won't find an inline-3 in an IS like poor BMW buyers do.

Yes the CR-V is a more direct competitor so the RAV4 is not that bad compared to the abysmal AWD on the CR-V. But other manufacturers have stepped up the game after years of giving free marketing material (aka bad AWD) for Subaru. Mazda is a notable example. I have not tried CX-5's AWD so I can't really comment, but there is some praise about it.

Subaru probably had the best marketing campaign in the automotive history by successfully convincing Americans that they absolutely need AWD for snow and rain and that their AWD is absolutely the best without close competition (both are false). Their overwhelming success in recent years has forced competitors to develop more serious AWD systems, and I do think Toyota does not want to fall behind in that respective.
 
Last edited:

Joaquin Ruhi

Expert
Staff member
Moderator
Messages
1,532
Reaction score
2,430
I just realized that FAW/Toyota posts all of its biddings online when acquiring tooling for new models (probably required by the government). This basically lets out all the inside information on its projects:
http://www.chinabidding.com/bidDetail/231512912.html ...There is usually a 12-month gap between RFP for tooling and Job One...

There are also RFPs for tooling for the "new generation Corolla" since June 2017. Considering the current generation Corolla is not that old, I believe this is more likely a facelift than an actual update but possibly incorporating some TNGA concepts.
I'm not sure what to think. The current E170 larger "International Corolla" was launched around June 2013. If the Corolla RFP is dated June 2017, that would put Job One around June 2018 (2019 model year) and put the E170 on a 5-year cycle, which is something Toyota hasn't done in a long time. That's too late for a regular facelift unless it's an extensive one like Lexus' 4LS's (which ultimately was built for 11 model years), but I just don't see that happening for a mass-market car like Corolla.

A couple of random possibilities come to mind: Is Toyota borrowing from Volkswagen's Chinese playbook and planning to produce both the current E170 and its E190 successor (likely due around June 2019 for the 2020 model year) at the same time? Or will Chinese Corolla become a variant of the smaller primarily Japan-only E160 (whose E180 successor is due around that June 2018 [2019 model year] time frame). Color me stumped...
 
Last edited:

ssun30

Expert
Messages
1,833
Reaction score
4,160
A couple of random possibilities come to mind: Is Toyota borrowing from Volkswagen's Chinese playbook and planning to produce both the current E170 and its E190 successor (likely due around June 2019 for the 2020 model year) at the same time?
Yes I think you just nailed it! Chinese auto makers have a habit of keep producing outdated models with a facelift and renaming while in a transition to newer models. These vehicles are for fleet-sale only (unavailable at dealerships and not listed on official websites) to reduce maintenance cost. Some has such high demands that the manufacturer keeps making them until eternity with the most notable example being the Santana (aka B2 Passat).

The E120 Corolla was produced until 2017 by FAW/Toyota after it was phased-out in 2007. This so-called Corolla EX is ubiquitous in Guangdong in taxi/law enforcement fleets. Ironically this is a FAW/Toyota vehicle that sells very well in GAC/Toyota's home ground. FAW will likely keep producing the E170 to replace the E120 Corolla EX.

Similarly the XV40 Camry was produced, also until 2017, by GAC/Toyota as the Camry Classic. The car is also oriented towards fleet-sale with most of the acquisition coming from ridesharing companies and international corporations. It also became known as the standard vehicle for nearly all diplomatic missions in China due to its comfort and reliability.
 
Last edited:

CIF

Expert
Premium Member
Messages
1,655
Reaction score
1,808
It seems that in the future they will charge increasing amount of premium for more cylinders. Eight for the halo car, six for luxury, while its bread and butter will move to four cylinders only. I won't be surprised if 7ES debuts with a 2.5 turbo 4 instead of the highly anticipated 3.0 V6TT, we can still hope though...(think about it, a 2.5 turbo 4 makes a lot more sense for its light trucks and SUVs).

We should appreciate their decency to not put inline-3s everywhere. At least we won't find an inline-3 in an IS like poor BMW buyers do.

Yes the CR-V is a more direct competitor so the RAV4 is not that bad compared to the abysmal AWD on the CR-V. But other manufacturers have stepped up the game after years of giving free marketing material (aka bad AWD) for Subaru. Mazda is a notable example. I have not tried CX-5's AWD so I can't really comment, but there is some praise about it.

Subaru probably had the best marketing campaign in the automotive history by successfully convincing Americans that they absolutely need AWD for snow and rain and that their AWD is absolutely the best without close competition (both are false). Their overwhelming success in recent years has forced competitors to develop more serious AWD systems, and I do think Toyota does not want to fall behind in that respective.
Yeah, not liking where we are headed in terms of the future, but all I can do as an individual is vote with my wallet.

Yes it's shocking what BMW is doing, but not entirely surprising. However I personally hate lowering expectations like this. I like my V6 and V8 engines, and if Toyota continues getting rid of them, or making them rare/expensive, I will then simply buy used, or I will take my money elsewhere.

Yes that much is true. Other manufacturers have definitely stepped up their game with their AWD systems, while Toyota hasn't done much.

I agree that Toyota doesn't want to fall behind, but I am very confident they also don't want to cannibalize Subaru sales too much either if they release an advanced AWD system. I think Toyota is in a delicate balance of a situation here. Will be interesting to see how they proceed.
 

ssun30

Expert
Messages
1,833
Reaction score
4,160
Definitely has the tough look of their BOF vehicles. Let's hope it delivers the capabilities as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CIF

CIF

Expert
Premium Member
Messages
1,655
Reaction score
1,808
Some breaking news from Toyota. A ton of info to go through and I won't bother with all the links here, but from their global newsroom Toyota has officially announced 2 brand new AWD/4WD systems. A brand new torque vectoring AWD system for gasoline engines, and for hybrids, a new E-Four 4WD system. Interestingly, Toyota says applications for the system will include both passenger and 'commercial' vehicles. I wonder what commercial vehicles is Toyota referring to here? Hopefully not JDM-only models. Toyota additionally claims this torque-vectoring AWD system achieves high off-road performance on the toughest roads. Also nebulous is a world first that Toyota mentions about the new torque vectoring AWD system having a 'disconnect system' on the front and rear wheel shafts, which apparently greatly improve fuel economy in 2WD. For both the torque vectoring and new E-Four systems, Toyota additionally mentions something called AWD Integrated Management. Toyota was very vague in their explanation of this, but could possibly include some terrain management features.

In addition, Toyota announced a new compact 6-speed manual, a new 2.0L hybrid system with Dynamic Force engine, a new Direct Shift CVT, and a new 2.0L Dynamic Force engine with about 169HP and 151 lb-ft torque. Interestingly, Toyota's literature compares this new engine to the 2ZR-FE. So this may imply that this could replace the 2ZR-FE in many existing applications. Even more interestingly, Toyota's literature states an 18% fuel economy increase over the 2ZR-FE, when this 2.0L Dynamic Force engine is combined with the new Direct Shift CVT. Like the A25A in the new Camry, this new engine comes with D4-S and VVT-iE, is a long stroke design, and has all the other Dynamic Force goodies, like 40% thermal efficiency and electric water pump, among other things. Toyota calls this new 2.0L engine a core Toyota engine, and claims class-leading fuel economy numbers. By the end of 2023, Toyota aims to have 80% or more of vehicles sold in major markets to have TNGA powertrains. Toyota compares the 2.0L Dynamic Force hybrid system to the current 1.8L hybrid system in the Prius, and claims a 9% fuel economy increase and an 18% acceleration increase. Not sure if this also implies this new 2.0L hybrid system may replace the 1.8L hybrid system.

We Toyota fans have been more than patient, but Toyota is starting to deliver more and more of the next-gen goods, so this is exciting to see. That means the new Rav4 is almost sure to have this torque vectoring AWD system, and combined with the A25A engine will be a great combination I think. Initially from the sounds of it, this new torque vectoring AWD system could compete very well with the best overall competitor systems out there. This is a much needed step up for Toyota's unibody and crossover platforms. This also means it's very likely the coming Lexus UX and next-gen NX and RX will have this torque vectoring AWD, not to mention the next-gen Highlander.

Aside from this next-gen torque vectoring 4WD system, IMO the next most anticipated yet to be revealed goodies are Dynamic Force workhorse V6 and V8 engines to replace the GR and UR series of engines.

For all the full details and links, I'm sure a separate thread can be made.
 
Last edited:

ssun30

Expert
Messages
1,833
Reaction score
4,160
Yes let's do that. Make a separate thread out of this! I knew they were not bragging when they claimed the A20A makes 2.5L power with 1.8L efficiency back in November 2017.

The AWD system is just standard business (eLSD) used by everyone and at least in theory could match Subaru.
 
Last edited:
Messages
755
Reaction score
1,244
I am calling it right now guys. My guts are telling me this is for the new Corolla. That 2.0L that they announced and that new 6-speed manual serves as a perfect replacement. That Direct-Shift CVT? That is so Corolla...... Don't you all remember when people made complaints on how terrible the manual was? And the fact that 1.8L was the age of a dinosaur? How about the CVT, to which many people described as sluggish? There you go.

And @CIF, you mention about the V6 and V8 engines. Are you sure they're coming out or is that a speculation that you're making?
 
Top