2022 Nissan Z

maiaramdan

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the fix is next generation without BMW.
Agree100%
It was a disaster from the beginning with the childish excuse of the i6 need to stay , so why the 2+2 is absent the Supra is always known for the 2+2 more than the i6!
 
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maiaramdan

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lol

disaster eh?
The v6 3.5 TT aka V35A-FTS is very much passionate and compassionate engine in comparison to the BMW i6 engine currently in use

Add to that , Toyota turned a pure fantastic design such FT-1 because of BMW

And the third failure point is by ditching the 2+2

For me the GR-86 is much more better than the current supra at least it's Japanese and with very good price range in comparison to the Supra which is underpowered and yet overpriced than most of it's competition and with the new Nissan Z, Toyota really need to fix at least those 3 points quickly
 

Gecko

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Part of how Nissan priced the Z so competitively is that it is an update of a very old platform with a powertrain taken out of the parts bin. The cost to bring this car to market is low, and that's probably all Nissan could afford. I don't have any issue with this strategy... Lexus has been doing it for a long time with the IS, LS, LX, GX, etc. We are also seeing many other manufacturers recycle current platforms and technology while they invest the primary part of their R&D budgets into electric vehicles. In some ways, Toyota's TNGA era is probably the last of anything like it for any automaker: all-new from the ground up powertrain, chassis and technology development for ICE/hybrid powered vehicles. Nobody else can afford that for an entire lineup.

With the Supra, the difference for Toyota was that they really had no platform and no parts to use, and thus, were at BMW's mercy. Using luxury car mechanicals and technology means luxury car prices. BMW premium RWD architecture, BMW's signature I6 with ZF 8AT... the newest and best of the best when the car was developed. That cost$.

Toyota has been divesting of RWD, and while Nissan is as well, they were able to salvage the old platform and make it usable for the Z. Toyota was in the midst of a powertrain overhaul (TNGA/dynamic force) and probably didn't have the V35A-FTS spec'ed for a sports car during development, and not like they could have used it in BMW's "take and bake" formula anyway.

I will be surprised if anything comes of the next gen Supra. All signs point to BMW being done with the Z4 due to sales. If that's the case, do we see Toyota building an A100 solo at Magna Steyr? Certainly not. Then Toyota retooling a factory to be able to build old BMW hardware somewhere in USA or Japan seems very unlikely and extremely inefficient.

I think a next gen Supra comes down to what else Toyota/Lexus could build on that platform. The most logical use case would be an RC and potentially IS if the platform is good/flexible enough. The rumored tie-up with Mazda for their new coupe could be an option also. Other than that, I just don't see a viable business case for the A100 to exist unless BMW does something else on their side of the deal: 2 Series? Something else? Toyota has nothing else to refresh or re-engineer that would work for a Supra, or they would have done it with the A90.

Until then, I do think a $40-50k Z with 400hp is going to shake up the market and give the Supra some problems.
 
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The v6 3.5 TT aka V35A-FTS is very much passionate and compassionate engine in comparison to the BMW i6 engine currently in use
This makes no sense. How is a turbo-laggy V6 any better than basically the best 6-cylinder engine that's on sale today?

Add to that , Toyota turned a pure fantastic design such FT-1 because of BMW

Well like, did you want a Toyota Supra or not? I wanted one, and there was no way else we could get it. If you ever wanted Toyota to get back to the sports car game TODAY this was the only way.

Mind you, Toyota was developing the 5th generation Supra (it wouldn't be a GR at that time) that was based off the Toyota FT-HS concept car. Why didn't it arrive? Well you can thank the great GWB for that one.

And the third failure point is by ditching the 2+2

I will agree with this one. A 2+2 would be more favorable.

Part of how Nissan priced the Z so competitively is that it is an update of a very old platform with a powertrain taken out of the parts bin. The cost to bring this car to market is low, and that's probably all Nissan could afford. I don't have any issue with this strategy... Lexus has been doing it for a long time with the IS, LS, LX, GX, etc. We are also seeing many other manufacturers recycle current platforms and technology while they invest the primary part of their R&D budgets into electric vehicles. In some ways, Toyota's TNGA era is probably the last of anything like it for any automaker: all-new from the ground up powertrain, chassis and technology development for ICE/hybrid powered vehicles. Nobody else can afford that for an entire lineup.

True. And yet, the new Z will be hitting in the low 40's for the lowest package. If anything, the 2.0L GR Supra is in serious danger, but the 3.0 will cost similar to the Z with the Performance Package. The only true positives that the new Z has is that it is a stick and it's all from Nissan themselves.

Otherwise it's an old-platform that dates back to when most of us were either children, or were young adolescents. The new Z is a true redesign in that it basically revamps almost everything that there is into something new, albeit using the platform that they already had.

With the Supra, the difference for Toyota was that they really had no platform and no parts to use, and thus, were at BMW's mercy. Using luxury car mechanicals and technology means luxury car prices. BMW premium RWD architecture, BMW's signature I6 with ZF 8AT... the newest and best of the best when the car was developed. That cost$.

I've been seeing this point way too often and it grinds my gears a tiny bit. Allow me to elaborate.

Toyota wasn't at BMW's mercy. Toyota didn't have such a hard-on for a 6-cylinder sports car in that they'd be willing to be submissive to BMW's every command here just so they can have a GR Supra in their lineup. That's not what happened. I can't for the life of me understand how people reach to some bizarre conclusions like Toyota being at BMW's mercy and yet forget that Toyota at heart is a practical company, just like every single other car company too. A company's main focus is to make money and have projects that make sense. THEN, there can be times when the enthusiast-minded executives at a car company can suggest if they could truly build something legendary, and generally, the company would allow it. However the precursors of a said project needs to exist before they can take the jump. A business case needs to be there.

There was a business case, there were buyers that wanted one regardless of how they created it. However, it's obvious that it would be reachable to a wider audience if it was cheaper. How many times have we discussed the main issue with Toyota and Lexus enthusiast vehicles in the past couple of years and that is how nobody seems to buy them despite how honestly good they are? Toyota literally sent a signal that codeveloping is the only way we're going to get sports cars in this day and age and you guys WILL buy it or else we never want to hear complaining from y'all anymore. Buy these cars and tell us with your dollars that there's a business case for an all-Toyota sports car. And as a result, look at the sales. The FRS/86 had an insane level of sales just in North America alone, thus warranting for a 2nd generation 86 (now GR86). This is how you build a brand, and that is to build a product that would garner a ton of demand. The A90 GR Supra sold more in just about 2 years than the A80 could have ever done in its entire production cycle. So clearly Toyota (and BMW) did something right this time around.

Sure, there are other projects that simply made no sense at all financially, because either they had other cars that can cover the costs of said car, or they're willing to take a risk to be in liquidation because the car could be a status symbol for them so it creates a brand image that builds their company in the long term. If the BMW project was going to be something that puts Toyota in a spot that didn't help them revive the Supra brand properly and give them a business case to build an A100, and didn't make sense for them out of the gate be it in terms of performance, cost, or just overall desirability, you're seriously telling me that Toyota wouldn't abandon the project and partnership full stop? Toyota isn't desperate.

You wouldn't have any of a future if the car wasn't at a bang on $50-55k USD and has supercar levels of performance stock, and beat supercars on a regular basis with basic modifications and an average tune. If Toyota did spend an assload of money to build something absolutely insane like Lexus did with the LFA, then you'd have the argument that nobody would buy it with its insane price. Look at the GTR, look at the NSX. Nobody bought them, at least later on in their life cycle in the case of the GTR.

You're talking about the world's most powerful car company here. They make rational decisions, even if it is about an enthusiast product. The LFA and the Toyota hypercar for example are in their own scenarios. Every condition was present for them to be irrational and go crazy for these projects.

Lastly, this entire thing was a partnership. BMW wanted Toyota's hybrid and fuel cell technology, and wanted to continue developing MORE cars and technologies with Toyota as well. From what I personally know, this shouldn't be the last that you would see between Toyota and BMW.

Toyota has been divesting of RWD, and while Nissan is as well, they were able to salvage the old platform and make it usable for the Z. Toyota was in the midst of a powertrain overhaul (TNGA/dynamic force) and probably didn't have the V35A-FTS spec'ed for a sports car during development, and not like they could have used it in BMW's "take and bake" formula anyway.

Correct. But even then, the V35A-FTS being the torque monster that it is, probably even more torquey than the B58, is laggy. The B58 has virtually zero lag. It's not even comparable.

I will be surprised if anything comes of the next gen Supra. All signs point to BMW being done with the Z4 due to sales. If that's the case, do we see Toyota building an A100 solo at Magna Steyr? Certainly not. Then Toyota retooling a factory to be able to build old BMW hardware somewhere in USA or Japan seems very unlikely and extremely inefficient.

This is exactly what's happening. I've been told that an A100 GR Supra would either arrive immediately after the A90 or would take a few year gap (my guess is like 2-3 years) after production of the A90 is over in 2025 for MY2026, making it a healthy 7 year cycle for the A90. Around a year ago they started talks of how they wanted to develop and create the A100.

There is no reason why Toyota wouldn't build an A100 now, and even using more of their own technologies because the sales are literally encouraging Toyota to continue on their pursuit of the revival of their sports cars.

I was told that it was either going to be an all-Toyota project, or it's going to be codeveloped with Mazda. There was no mention of BMW. I think the current package is perfect, and I once said if BMW could allow Toyota to reverse-engineer their own B58 and continue using this platform, then that would be absolutely legendary. I'm also a huge fan of the ZF8HP51 automatic as well. A manual would help their case though because it's supposed to be an organic sports car. I am a huge believer of the A90 so much that I believe that future GR Supras should build on what they worked on with BMW. It's that god damn good.

BMW is getting crushed in terms of sales if you compare it to Toyota, but both Toyota and BMW them are doing way better than Porsche and Nissan, and Porsche shows no sign of stopping the 718s anytime soon, and Nissan just came out with a new Z.

It could be built in Magna Steyr, but if it's either with Mazda or an all-Toyota project, it will most likely be built in Japan or they may create a new assembly line at that joint factory they have in the USA. These are just my speculations though.

I also don't understand your argument that it's inefficient. If Toyota were to continue with some remnants of BMW technology, they'd probably buy some of the rights to their property.

However, there's a wrench that was thrown into the washing machine and that is with the possible 2nd generation RC and 4th generation IS that's supposed to come in 2025. If they revamp the Toyota TNGA-N platform to make it viable for a GR Supra, IS, RC, Mazda car, AND maybe a future GR86, then that's a ton of cars that they could build upon this platform.

I think a next gen Supra comes down to what else Toyota/Lexus could build on that platform. The most logical use case would be an RC and potentially IS if the platform is good/flexible enough. The rumored tie-up with Mazda for their new coupe could be an option also. Other than that, I just don't see a viable business case for the A100 to exist unless BMW does something else on their side of the deal: 2 Series? Something else? Toyota has nothing else to refresh or re-engineer that would work for a Supra, or they would have done it with the A90.

The 2-Series sits on the same platform as the A90 and G29 Z4. So yes, a codeveloped project with the 2-Series could be possible. However since I had information that the A100 would either be with Mazda or an all-Toyota project, I'm not sure if Toyota will go with BMW again, especially how the latter didn't even want the Z4 to begin with and wanted a 2nd generation i8.

The Z4 only sells well in Europe, but Europe is becoming a less reliable market for enthusiast cars, however Toyota's GR Supra is selling well on every single continent bar Europe.

Until then, I do think a $40-50k Z with 400hp is going to shake up the market and give the Supra some problems.

True, until you spec a Z like you do with a GR Supra then the value isn't there anymore. The fact that it's a stick and it's built by Nissan themselves would gain it points.

Otherwise, it won't stand a chance performance-wise.
 
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ssun30

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Toyota has been divesting of RWD, and while Nissan is as well, they were able to salvage the old platform and make it usable for the Z. Toyota was in the midst of a powertrain overhaul (TNGA/dynamic force) and probably didn't have the V35A-FTS spec'ed for a sports car during development, and not like they could have used it in BMW's "take and bake" formula anyway.
What's worse was that they invested so much into two FR platforms but neither is suitable for performance cars (or anything)...both very heavy, poorly packaged, expensive to build and cannot be converted into EV platforms. They had to abandon four flagship programs because the platforms are so hard to work with (LF-FC, GS/GS-F, LC-F, LF1). They kept saying these were cancelled because of market demand but I'm pretty certain the engineers had a lot of trouble staying below the GVM limit and the designers couldn't make the interior space usable.

GA-N and GA-L are Toyota's poorest investment in a long time. Only four products came out of this program with combined sales of less than 50k cars a year in the entire world. Think about how much they could gain if the resources were invested in fast-tracking GA-F instead. We would have an entire new lineup of BOF trucks across the world by now.
 
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Levi

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The Supra might be a good car, as a few other BMW, but it will never be on my wishlist. Not every fan is a buyer (example: LC500) for financial reasons. But that some are not interested in the car regardless is not a good sign.

Many factors go into liking a car, objective ones like spec sheet, and then emotional and even irrational ones. While Toyota is not BMW, Toyota fans are proud of this brand (as any brand fan), this cooperation just hits Toyota fan's ego. It is a factor to consider regardless of the product quality. From here on, a person weighs the pro and cons in their subjective manner, and this includes design/styling, image, specs, price.

I am not a against the Supra, it gave Toyota a sporty GR PR gap filling, until GR86, GR Yaris and further vehicles come. I do think Toyota will have something in this space, in 10 years probably all electric.

Factually, the Supra is the Z4 Coupe original BMW fans wanted, but BMW never made, because they knew they were shifting the consumer base, from 3er, 5er, 7er, Z to full range crossover and fwd vehicles. BMW is not more the brand it was, all recent M's, while competent are a shadow of their past, a well crafted marketing move, targeting the fake Instagram world to rip off the gullible with overpriced planned obsolescence gimmicky products.

That is the way most consumer oriented businesses go, but BMW is one progressive woke brand now, a far cry from the "bad boy" image that had that made them what they are, a well renowned and aspired brand.
 

maiaramdan

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The Supra might be a good car, as a few other BMW, but it will never be on my wishlist. Not every fan is a buyer (example: LC500) for financial reasons. But that some are not interested in the car regardless is not a good sign.

Many factors go into liking a car, objective ones like spec sheet, and then emotional and even irrational ones. While Toyota is not BMW, Toyota fans are proud of this brand (as any brand fan), this cooperation just hits Toyota fan's ego. It is a factor to consider regardless of the product quality. From here on, a person weighs the pro and cons in their subjective manner, and this includes design/styling, image, specs, price.

I am not a against the Supra, it gave Toyota a sporty GR PR gap filling, until GR86, GR Yaris and further vehicles come. I do think Toyota will have something in this space, in 10 years probably all electric.

Factually, the Supra is the Z4 Coupe original BMW fans wanted, but BMW never made, because they knew they were shifting the consumer base, from 3er, 5er, 7er, Z to full range crossover and fwd vehicles. BMW is not more the brand it was, all recent M's, while competent are a shadow of their past, a well crafted marketing move, targeting the fake Instagram world to rip off the gullible with overpriced planned obsolescence gimmicky products.

That is the way most consumer oriented businesses go, but BMW is one progressive woke brand now, a far cry from the "bad boy" image that had that made them what they are, a well renowned and aspired brand.
The LC is the successor to the synonyms SC which is based on Souarer , which on its own was the luxurious Supra, and that what everyone was thinking on MK5 supra

Current Supra can be works as a new Celica more or less , it maybe good but not to hold this legandary name
 

mikeavelli

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1630033949154-png.2506
Looks fantastic here
 

mikeavelli

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Well the Supra and Z are really executed differently. Some
Of main things about the Supra people complain about are it doesn’t look as good as the FT-1 concept and the name Supra. The Z is pretty close to the concept but the concept wasn’t nearly as amazing as the FT-1.

Note the Z is a retro design while the Supra is not.

I just love both. Again in a time where CUV’s dominate, it’s amazing and shocking these 2 are here. In contrast, Honda, Mazda, Mitsubishi etc offer nothing here in the space.
 

bogglo

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Also, it's good to know that car manufactures are making an effort to produce enthusiast cars while being cautious of the price to the consumer hopefully this trend continues. The dealership is always the problem in this situations with their markups which kills the buzz. I think the most anticipated car price right now is the IS500. Knowing that the formula is almost similar to what Nissan did with the Z, I hope the base price overlaps with a fully loaded IS 350 DHP.
 

IS-SV

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To replace my Mustang GT, I'm thinking the Z (or a new Mach1).
Anybody have experience driving this 3.0L tt ?
 

bogglo

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To replace my Mustang GT, I'm thinking the Z (or a new Mach1).
Anybody have experience driving this 3.0L tt ?
I will say go to an infiniti dealership and test drive the q60 red sport if you like it I'm sure you will love the Z. I think the z should be a better car than the Q60
 

IS-SV

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I will say go to an infiniti dealership and test drive the q60 red sport if you like it I'm sure you will love the Z. I think the z should be a better car than the Q60
I could do that, but I personally would rather drive the real car (the new Z). My timeline is 1-2 years to replace the GT, it's been a great grand touring car for me and has 60K miles on it now.
Anybody driven the Q60 with the 3.0 tt already? If so what did they like/dislike about the engine.