2021 Nissan Fairlady 400Z/Z Proto discussion

Levi

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I read that GRMN Supra will be a limited run, like M4 GTS kind.
 

super51fan

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That's false lmao. Toyota literally pulled off a gentleman's agreement with BMW by underrating their engine by quoting their horsepower numbers at the wheels and not the crank. BMW underrated their engine too but looking at the dyno it was closer to their claimed horsepower number than Toyota were closer to theirs. It's the same case for the 2021 GR Supra too.

Toyota's Supra GRMN will happen whether "daddy BMW" will like it or not. They will also add incremental updates to the engine regardless of BMW thinks. It has been said a few times that the Supra will get power bumps throughout its life cycle.
None of that takes away from what I said lmao.

They are not at liberty to make changes that aren’t already in BMW’s pipeline. Toyota can push for a higher output motor but they still have to go through BMW for it.

How can Toyota do whatever they want ‘whether BMW likes it or not’ when BMW does all the emissions testing for the car? The Supra will most definitely get power bumps in its lifecycle, but only because it coincides with BMW’s updates and not on their own merit.

The A90 may not be just a BMW but it is still a BMW controlled vehicle nonetheless.
 

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super51fan

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Yes they can... That's what you don't get...
You can’t just conveniently leave out the part that proves that wrong. You have been drinking too much of the SupraMKV koolaid.

BMW might not say no to Toyota’s requests, but Toyota still has to go through them
 
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You can’t just conveniently leave out the part that proves that wrong. You have been drinking too much of the SupraMKV koolaid.

BMW might not say no to Toyota’s requests, but Toyota still has to go through them
I didn't conveniently leave out the other parts. I left them out because they don't have as much relevance to the point I'm trying to make, and your other points were extremely weak anyways so I ignored them. According to recent insider news, Toyota and Tada-san had the balls to snag the BMW 7-speed DCT and their S58 engine. Tada-san in particular was eyeing BMW's 7-speed DCT for a few years and really wants to put it in the Supra (I personally don't like this idea but whatever). You're telling me that BMW couldn't have shut it down if they really didn't want to? You're just grossly ignoring the fact that Toyota has a lot more influence in this project than you think they do and was able to pull this move off as a result of their influence.

You're now just bringing points from left field to confuse others lol. Your talk about BMW doing the emissions testing is flat-out asinine. So what? You do realize that Toyota paid off BMW engineers to do mileage testing for them then send the data back to Japan? Okay so BMW does emissions testing what is that supposed to mean? Just because BMW does emissions testing for the Supra means that Toyota can't do as they please when it comes to the Supra? It's THEIR car. Point is, Toyota asked BMW to do all sorts of stuff for them from when the car was being developed and now as well. From that, Toyota were able to act upon those things that BMW has done for Toyota like the mileage testing, testing individual parts, etc.. I'm not denying that there are some elements where BMW is in control, however if Toyota were able to snag the S58 and the 7-speed DCT like I mentioned previously, then Toyota is more in control than you think.

Also, Toyota is planning on hybridizing all of their vehicles or adding a hybrid option by 2025. That 2025 date is also coincidentally when BMW is going to cease producing the Z4. You're seriously telling me that if Toyota wanted to, they couldn't extend the life cycle of the A90 Supra? Tada-san has blatantly refused the requests of Toyota executives to make the current Supra a hybrid as his vision for the A90 Supra is to be a pure gas sports car before it changes philosophy again with the A100 Supra. He even went as far as saying that he doesn't want to get involved in the next Supra and wants to leave the hybrid stuff to the younger guys at Toyota (even though he's perfectly capable himself). So as a result, they're going to stop producing the car after CY2025/MY2026 giving the A90 GR Supra a relatively brisk 6 year run.

Now after this do you still want to accuse me of "drinking too much of the SupraMkV Kool-Aid" again?
 

Carmaker1

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Yeah $240 million is literally nothing compared to what Toyota and BMW spent for the Supra and the Z4 project. This just confirms that the new Z will definitely undercut the Supra in price.
I'm going to elaborate on that figure in a little bit, but certainly true what you are saying.
However much the Supra might be "better" does not make the Z a bad car. I am glad it is coming, and not killed like some other car at Lexus. The new Z can't be any worse than the new IS.

What influence did Ghosn have on the new Z?
Going to detail that in a different post.
 

Levi

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You're just grossly ignoring the fact that Toyota has a lot more influence in this project than you think they do and was able to pull this move off as a result of their influence.
If true, I wish it was more known, as all media calls it a BMW with Toyota badge and gives not credit to Toyota engineering.
 

Carmaker1

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Alright, as I was going to say the other day, be prepared for a very lengthy post:

Since 2011, a number of proposals and business cases have been submitted to the board of management for Z35 program, replacement for Z34 Z.

Nothing has been formally approved and made it into production development. Endless clay models and sketches for years on end, only for Mr. Carlos ghosn to reject it in the end. Whether as CEO of Nissan or as chairman Post January 2017.




This has been the story of premium and sports Nissans, particularly Infiniti nearing a decade.

The future of the brand and Infiniti is something I'm going to spell out.



In early 2017, a fully redesigned Z35 was approved styling and all. As some work progressed on that vehicle program throughout 2017, by January 2018 it was again cancelled by Mr. Ghosn and Saikawa.



The car was very beautiful and one of the most high-end expressions of Nissan design language.


In an effort to save face and keep up morale, Cuban American Alfonso Albaisa, the newly-promoted design director of Nissan Design global worked very hard to come up with a new business plan for the vehicle and ended up with something more viable by the end of summer.



What was the core issue with this vehicle? The act of spending money on a new sports car with new technologies, powertrain, and a new company-wide rear-wheel-drive unibody architecture, was daunting if Mr Ghosn had to approve it.



Replacing the front midship RWD architecture has been proposed in multiple vehicles 2019 Infiniti QX70 and Q80 flagship 4dr. Like LC 500 was lead vehicle for TNGA-L, either of those two had to be that or an all new Z. Since those two business cases were killed, it was left to this car to do that. Be the lead vehicle on a new architecture.



It was not deemed very viable to develop an expensive rear wheel drive architecture that could accommodate an ICE roadster/2-str, all the way up an EV capable RWD basis flagship crossover. Hence so many dead ends.

At the end of summer in 2018, $240 million was earmarked for a heavy revision. At this point the final design and other aspects in the design studio were completed. Nada beyond that point in summer 2018.

At this point, production will begin in September 2021 for November launch as a 2022 model year vehicle. It will not arrive sooner than that and will share quite a bit with the CV37 Infiniti Q60 coupe, being that it hinges on borrowing as many components as possible from that vehicle.






What many of you may not realize is that, the front midship platform is an architecture that made its debut in June 2001 on the V35 Skyline sedan aka Infiniti G35 launched March 12, 2002. IT IS 19, NINETEEN YEARS OLD!!



The front midship platform project on its own was also in limbo so long and a serious undertaking during the 1990s.

As early as 1993, ideas were thrown around on what should replace the new R33 Skyline range and that of the G20 in the United States, below Q45 and J30.

Nissan executives in Yokohama looked at the BMW E36 3-Series, now in its 3rd year since 1991 launch as a competitor. And much more refined car than its predecessor launched 1982-83, which harkened more back to 2002 days of yore. A much more luxurious car than E30 and a preview of incoming E38 flagship and upper level E39, that were trotting around in camouflage on the Nurburgring back in 1993.

Going with a more performance-oriented edge, would ensure success against BMW and stomp on Toyota's milquetoast entry effort with ES 300.

For various reasons, converting the R33 Skyline to LHD for the United States as an Infiniti performance sedan proved to be a fruitless endeavor and not worth the trouble to meet a 1995 model year release. Especially in the midst of recovering from the bubble burst.

In some ways the styling was already too racy and didn't fit NDI chief Jerry Hirshberg's silky styling ethos for Infiniti, including new Maxima-based I30, which had already been designed, but not due until 1995.

In 1994, formal commencement of developing this new rear wheel drive architecture occurred, to be ready in time for 1998. Lower cost replacement for R33 Skyline was inaugurated, dropping RB for VQ.

However, by the end of 1995 plans to develop this architecture fell by the wayside because Nissan's economic outlook soured some more and more demanding programs were made priority.

A redesigned Z33 for the 1997/98 model year was also canceled, as the sales situation in the United States was impossible regarding 300ZX. An Infiniti coupe, styling approved in May 1993 internally for late 1996 launch, was also canceled.

At that point R34 was assigned to a revised car and new P11 Primera launching in Europe, was now being developed for mid-1998 launch as a stopgap G20 for 1999. Unfortunately due to poor timing, it also meant that the G20 would have to go out of production for 2 years.

By 1997, the interim projects were entering pilot phases and the front midship programs were resurrected. In early 1998 what became the G35 sedan was completed in the design department and work was ordered on a two-door variant. Designation also changed to V35, from V34.

Back at Nissan Design International in La Jolla California, Jerry Hirshberg got the idea in mid 1998 to do a 240Z concept for NAIAS. The 240Z concept made its debut in January 1999, but no production program was fully under way yet.

As the spring drew closer, Nissan was borderline hitting bankruptcy. Both DaimlerChrysler and Renault were asked to get involved. DaimlerChrysler opted out if I recall and Renault sent Carlos Ghosn over to Japan by May. He then became COO.

Just like this display of future vehicles back in May 2020, in order to give investors and the media confidence in the future of Nissan, many future vehicles were shown due years out.

In April of 1999, the G35 sedan was among those revealed in an embargoed setting, to automotive journalists at 1999 NYIAS who were impressed by the pop up navigation screen and headlight design, but barred from use of any photography or illustration.

An earlier version of this vehicle was later shown at Tokyo 1999 as the Nissan XVL Concept, which wasn't a concept, but actually the heavily detailed fiberglass mockup of the new RWD Infiniti sedan, years before it went on sale. Naturally it would not be shown so early, but they felt they were ready and had nothing to lose.

Meanwhile, the cash infusion from Renault ensured that the FM platform now had funds to be fully engineered and go into production by the summer of 2001.

This also meant that the new Z car had a basis it could share the costs with. Carlos Ghosn was so in love with the idea of resurrecting the nameplate, he immediately approved it in 1999 for 2002 launch.

Not only V35 range, but a wagon, a new coupe like crossover by 2003, new midsize sedan by 2004, a new flagship by 2006 (canceled). Carlos Ghosn inaugurated his Nissan Revival Plan by September of 1999, which included a roster of vehicles across both brands.

By March 2000, what became the 350Z was approved stylistically and frozen that autumn, I had of its 2002 launch.

In January 2001, the Z Concept was revealed and pretty much the production vehicle, being formally revealed in full in Tokyo that October alongside a great surprise in a GT-R concept. (Now elevated above the Skyline range, intended to be a borderline supercar when funds allowed it.)

The FM platform lead vehicle in V35 sedan was already revealed in June 2001 and not too shortly afterward, the 2003 Infiniti G35 itself, several months ahead of its introduction in March 2002. G35 coupe came in November 2002 and FX45 in January 2003.

FM platform was birthing so many great products, at lightning speed.

Problem is the replacements for all of these vehicles above were heavy revisions on the same platform. Come 2010s, a lot of these second gen RWDs have been killed off, left in limbo. Namely Q50, Q70, QX70, QX50, Q45* and last but not least 370Z.

Because of Hurricane Katrina, developing the current Z34 370Z was a struggle during the design process and barely made styling approval in late 2005, as the corrupted oil substances for the clay made their work difficult.

Since 2008 nothing has changed, as per what I said above. Hopefully you understand why it's daunting to create a new rear wheel drive platform, when customers are not willing to pay for Infiniti products of that nature without demanding incentives.

The Z can never survive without Infiniti involved in this modern era of cost consolidation. Since Infiniti was going for seda, a new ICE RWD platform doesn't make sense.

---R36 GT-R is not in development at the moment, it is on a bi-year hiatus and will resume in time for a 2026 launch. It is essentially deja vu like was the case in 2001 with the GTR concept being shown and not surfacing until 2007. R35 production ends in 2022.

Other than extremely delayed QX55 next April, nothing new for Infiniti until 2024. Infiniti EV plans have been pushed back in favor of more new CUVs, so not sure what is happening.

And please let's stay on topic regarding Z and not let it get sidetracked by off topic discussion.
 
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supra93

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https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/370z/108218/new-nissan-z-car-due-2022-could-take-nissan-400z-name

New Nissan Z car due in 2022 could take Nissan 400Z name

Nissan 370Z replacement will forgo an electric powertrain

Nissan is in the midst of an ambitious plan to rebuild the brand, boost profits, plus establish a new generation of products, and key to its turnaround is a successor to the firm’s 370Z sports car. Expected to be revealed towards the end of 2022 and go on sale the following year, the new Z car’s launch will mark 15 years since the current 370Z was introduced, back in 2008.

The Japanese firm’s short-term plan, which goes up to 2023, will see the company focus its efforts on expanding its crossover model range, launch more than eight new electric vehicles and reinvigorate its sports car line-up. At the same time Nissan will reduce its overall product portfolio by 20 per cent, by discontinuing older models or vehicles that are specific to a single region.

The 370Z replacement, rumoured to be called 400Z, will be sold across Nissan’s major markets in North America and China, as well as Europe, in order to maximise profitability. Sports cars make up one per cent of Europe’s total new car sales.

Confirmation of the new Z car came earlier this year, along with a hazy teaser image of the two-door coupé. Although design details are hard to pick out, the image did reveal that the sports car will keep the sleek, cab-rearward silhouette that first appeared on the 240Z back in the sixties. Spy shots have revealed that Nissan is already under way with development on the newcomer, using the current 370Z as a test mule. Our exclusive images give you an idea of how the finished car could look.

Talking about the styling of the upcoming sports car, Nissan’s senior vice-president for design, Alfonso Albaisa, told us: “The Z is the car that democratised sports cars back in the sixties. The current car has been a long time in the dealerships, and so you could imagine the designers working on it.

“We could never leave this alone, it’s in our soul. You can feel this in other Nissan designs, like the new Ariya; it’s not just about fuel efficiency, it wants to be driven, for the love of driving.”

To ensure the Toyota Supra rival will be profitable for Nissan – something that’s famously difficult to achieve in the sports car class due to the small sales volumes – the firm will look to leverage its position within the Renault Nissan Alliance. Rather than develop a new platform for the sports car, Nissan is likely to use an evolution of the architecture that underpins a range of models, including the Infiniti Q60 coupé.

The platform is designed for front-engined, rear-wheel-drive vehicles and is already compatible with a 3.0-litre V6 twin-turbocharged engine that is capable of producing in excess of 400bhp. Such a configuration will allow Nissan to develop the next Z model quickly, because components are readily available, while the performance figures would make the newcomer competitive in its class.

There’s also the possibility of the Nismo division developing a more powerful and more focused model further down the line.

Despite Nissan concentrating on electric and e-Power hybrid systems, Auto Express understands that the 370Z replacement will feature no electrification, and rely solely on an internal combustion engine for power. To that end, official documents released by Nissan show that an ICE vehicle will be launched towards the end of the company’s 2023 plan.

Beyond its short-term plan, Nissan will shift its focus away from Europe and try to expand the firm’s presence in China and North America. While it still intends to build and sell vehicles in Europe in the future, the firm will rely more heavily on the Alliance, chiefly Renault, by producing Nissan-badged versions of its sister company’s vehicles.

 

supra93

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New Fairlady Z: 400ps engine operated with 6-speed MT is thrilling!

■March 2021 debut

As with the Z33, the new Fairlady Z, which debuts in March 2021 at the earliest, will be a symbol of Nissan's restart.

Initially it was said to be a big minor change version of the current Z34 type, but it turned out to be a full model change including changes to the suspension geometry while making the most of the floor base.

The engine that fits in the body that is reminiscent of the original S30 type is a 3L, V6 twin turbo with 304ps/40.8kgm specification and 405ps/48.4kgm specification.

This engine itself has already been adopted for the skyline, but note that a 6-speed MT is also available, which is different from the skyline!

You can enjoy the joy of operating a 400ps class engine with MT. It is sure to become an exciting machine reminiscent of the old Nissan.

The price is expected to be around 4 million to 5.5 million yen.
https://bestcarweb.jp/news/scoop/190283

 
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