Thank Him or Hate Him, Akio Toyoda Killed Lexus’ Spindle Grille

[Gecko]

Lexus’ spindle grille has been a flashpoint for buyers and fans, but also gave Lexus a clear design identity


Akio Toyoda directed designers to “break the spindle” Lexus grille


A new design language appears to be taking shape with recent concepts like the LF-ZC, LF-ZL, Sport Concept, and LS Concepts



Whether you love it or hate it, Lexus’ spindle grille front end was nothing short of controversial when it debuted, but as it evolved with new models and iterations, it became synonymous with Lexus design.
Starting with the LF-Gh concept car and iterating across the lineup for more than a decade, Lexus’ trademark spindle grille has slowly been disappearing across newer models like the RZ, RX, and new ES...

Continue reading...

 

[CRSKTN]

Lexus cannot be allowed to have any consistent or reliable image, styling, design or product offerings that could create a true following, in the eyes of Toyoda. The moment one takes, it must be cannibalized and destroyed. They peaked with the LC500, then used design elements in low end products and began to disassemble the machine.

 

[Gecko]

"This works well for Lexus?"

BREAK IT!

 

[Will1991]

If possible, it would be awesome to have some clear brand direction...

Are they trying to do a Jaguar.2?

 

[CIF]

I think the importance of the spindle grille to the success of Lexus is arguable. I don't think it was that important.

That being said styling will always be subjective. While some love the spindle grille, I personally never liked it, whether on Lexus models or when the design began appearing on Toyota models as well. I am personally glad they are moving away from this design on Lexus and can't wait for Toyota models to also drop this design. I would also argue the spindle grille does not make Lexus models that have it immediately recognizable. All Lexus models that have the spindle grille personally I recognize due to other styling features, but not the spindle grille.

 

[CRSKTN]

I think the importance of the spindle grille to the success of Lexus is arguable. I don't think it was that important.

That being said styling will always be subjective. While some love the spindle grille, I personally never liked it, whether on Lexus models or when the design began appearing on Toyota models as well. I am personally glad they are moving away from this design on Lexus and can't wait for Toyota models to also drop this design. I would also argue the spindle grille does not make Lexus models that have it immediately recognizable. All Lexus models that have the spindle grille personally I recognize due to other styling features, but not the spindle grille.

It literally marked the turnaround of the brand. Doesn't matter what anyone thinks. It worked, so it had to die.

 

[Motor]

Spindle >
Bring it back.

 

[CIF]

It literally marked the turnaround of the brand. Doesn't matter what anyone thinks. It worked, so it had to die.

I'm not sure what you mean by turnaround. Did it mark the start of a new era for Lexus? In a way yes. Right before the first spindle models started coming out from Lexus, the Lexus brand was doing good. Ignoring internet critics and biased media, since it was created the Lexus brand has never done bad as an overall brand.

The spindle grille did not detract from Lexus sales of course, all I'm saying is I don't think it was critical to the success of Lexus. Also we need to remember Akio Toyoda was already CEO when the first spindle grille models started coming out. He could have cancelled them or forced a design change at that time if he didn't like them but he approved of them. So at least for a time, it seems like Akio Toyoda was okay with the spindle grille designs. All this being said of course still doesn't excuse the fact that the brand direction for Lexus over the past 10 years has been an absolute mess.

 

[Gor134]

Some interesting design documents I've found in the past for the Spindle.

Interesting to see it's transformation over the year, and how it's now going back to a separating design again!

 

[CRSKTN]

I'm not sure what you mean by turnaround. Did it mark the start of a new era for Lexus? In a way yes. Right before the first spindle models started coming out from Lexus, the Lexus brand was doing good. Ignoring internet critics and biased media, since it was created the Lexus brand has never done bad as an overall brand.

The spindle grille did not detract from Lexus sales of course, all I'm saying is I don't think it was critical to the success of Lexus. Also we need to remember Akio Toyoda was already CEO when the first spindle grille models started coming out. He could have cancelled them or forced a design change at that time if he didn't like them but he approved of them. So at least for a time, it seems like Akio Toyoda was okay with the spindle grille designs. All this being said of course still doesn't excuse the fact that the brand direction for Lexus over the past 10 years has been an absolute mess.

Year	Global Sales	US Sales	Notable Events
2006	475,000	322,434
2007	518,000	329,177	All-time high (at the time)
2008	435,000	260,087	16% decline due to recession
2011	410,000	198,552	Lost #1 US luxury brand ranking to BMW
2012	-	-	Spindle Grill Emerges with GS Concept then GS in 2013
2013	523,000	273,847	Recovery milestone - New Spindle GS, LS, ES, RX
2014	582,000	311,389	New global record - New Spindle IS, CT
2015	652,000	344,601	12% increase - New Spindle Model RC, New Spindle NX
2016	677,615	331,228	4th consecutive record year
2017	~688,000	304,376	Continued growth
2018	698,300	298,302	4.5% increase, 10 millionth vehicle sold
2019	765,330	298,112	10% increase, record high
2020	718,715	275,042	6% decrease (COVID-19 impact)
2021	760,012	326,928	6% increase, recovery
2022	625,365	258,434	18% decrease (supply chain issues)
2023	824,258	320,249	32% increase, new record
2024	851,214	345,669	3.3% increase, best ever

 

[CIF]

Year	Global Sales	US Sales	Notable Events
2006	475,000	322,434
2007	518,000	329,177	All-time high (at the time)
2008	435,000	260,087	16% decline due to recession
2011	410,000	198,552	Lost #1 US luxury brand ranking to BMW
2012	-	-	Spindle Grill Emerges with GS Concept then GS in 2013
2013	523,000	273,847	Recovery milestone - New Spindle GS, LS, ES, RX
2014	582,000	311,389	New global record - New Spindle IS, CT
2015	652,000	344,601	12% increase - New Spindle Model RC, New Spindle NX
2016	677,615	331,228	4th consecutive record year
2017	~688,000	304,376	Continued growth
2018	698,300	298,302	4.5% increase, 10 millionth vehicle sold
2019	765,330	298,112	10% increase, record high
2020	718,715	275,042	6% decrease (COVID-19 impact)
2021	760,012	326,928	6% increase, recovery
2022	625,365	258,434	18% decrease (supply chain issues)
2023	824,258	320,249	32% increase, new record
2024	851,214	345,669	3.3% increase, best ever

Toyota global numbers:

Year	Net Revenue	Net income	Total assets	Vehicle sales (millions)	Employees
2008	¥26.3 trillion	¥1.7 trillion	¥32.4 trillion	8.9
2009	¥20.5 trillion	(¥0.4 trillion)	¥29.1 trillion	7.6
2010	¥19.0 trillion	¥0.2 trillion	¥30.3 trillion	7.2
2011	¥19.0 trillion	¥0.4 trillion	¥29.8 trillion	7.3
2012	¥18.6 trillion	¥0.3 trillion	¥30.7 trillion	7.4
2013	¥22.1 trillion	¥1.0 trillion	¥35.5 trillion	8.9
2014	¥25.7 trillion	¥1.8 trillion	¥41.4 trillion	9.1
2015	¥27.2 trillion	¥2.2 trillion	¥47.7 trillion	9.0
2016	¥28.4 trillion	¥2.3 trillion	¥47.4 trillion	8.7
2017	¥27.6 trillion	¥1.8 trillion	¥48.8 trillion	9.0
2018	¥29.4 trillion	¥2.5 trillion	¥50.3 trillion	9.0	369,124
2019	¥30.2 trillion	¥1.9 trillion	¥51.9 trillion	9.0	370,870
2020	¥29.2 trillion	¥2.1 trillion	¥52.7 trillion	9.0	359,542
2021	¥27.2 trillion	¥2.2 trillion	¥62.3 trillion	7.6	366,283
2022	¥31.4 trillion	¥2.9 trillion	¥67.7 trillion	8.2	372,817
2023	¥37.2 trillion	¥2.5 trillion	¥74.3 trillion	8.8	375,235
2024	¥45.1 trillion	¥4.9 trillion	¥90.1 trillion	8.7	380,793

First off, correlation does not mean causation. Starting in 2008 and lasting for several years, Toyota was globally affected by the economic recession that primarily hit a number of western countries but still had a major global impact. This had a negative effect on Toyota and Lexus sales for several years. In 2011 there was also the historic earthquake that hit Japan and severely reduced Japanese production of Toyota and Lexus models, which reduced global Toyota and Lexus sales. This also affected many overseas Toyota plants outside of Japan because the earthquake severely reduced parts production from many of Toyota's Japan suppliers that supplied Toyota's plants around the world. I knew many, many people in 2011 that wanted to buy a new Toyota or Lexus model but flat out could not because supply was not there due to the effects of the historic 2011 Japan earthquake.

The debut of the spindle grille on Lexus models was simply very fortuitous timing as just as these early spindle grille models were debuting, the global economy was greatly recovering from the great recession of 2008 and Toyota worldwide production was greatly recovering from the effects of the 2011 historic Japan earthquake.

From 2008 to 2012, had people suddenly given up on the Toyota and Lexus brands? Were people from 2008 to 2012 all of a sudden completely avoiding the Toyota and Lexus brands due to bad reputations? Of course not. What we know for a fact is that major world events out of Toyota's control (the great recession of 2008, the great Japan earthquake of 2011) negatively affected both worldwide sales and worldwide production of Toyota and Lexus models for several years.

The data you posted in fact partially disproves your own argument. Lexus has been moving away from the spindle grille now for the last few years (and this will continue) yet Lexus sales are stronger than ever. Toyota has also been moving away from the Lexus copy spindle grille designs for a few years now and yet Toyota sales are better than ever.

You have merely shown correlation but not causation, and this is a strange hill to pick an argument on. You have not shown definitive, explicit, incontestable proof that the spindle grille design on its own led to a global turnaround for Lexus sales because there is no such proof.

 

[CRSKTN]

From 2008 to 2015, none of the German brands had as weak a recovery and most were not as affected by the downturn as Lexus was. BMW had added and refreshed multiple X vehicles, the RX was ancient and the mediocre first gen NX didn't arrive til 2015.
The German brands also did much better in China that Lexus did.
Lexus was behind the Germans on a major redesign too.

In the US Audi added 5x - 6x as many sales from 2009 to 2013 as Lexus did.
BMW added over 5x as many as well, MB over 4x.

It wasn't until the new models that their market share started to grow again, now at their 16 year high.

The inflection point for Lexus sales globally were the platform redesigns, and it was BARELY enough to be competitive.
Those younger buyers aged up and are now the group supporting their TX/RX/NX sales.

If what you claim is true, they wouldn't have been hit bigger than other manufacturers and lost volume sales titles to BMW, etc.

If anything all you've done is prove that I am right that Toyota is decentralizing Lexus and doesn't prioritize it.
Lexus has never been a smaller % of the Toyota sales volumes as it is now, despite the market share capture.

 

[CIF]

From 2008 to 2015, none of the German brands had as weak a recovery and most were not as affected by the downturn as Lexus was. BMW had added and refreshed multiple X vehicles, the RX was ancient and the mediocre first gen NX didn't arrive til 2015.
The German brands also did much better in China that Lexus did.
Lexus was behind the Germans on a major redesign too.

In the US Audi added 5x - 6x as many sales from 2009 to 2013 as Lexus did.
BMW added over 5x as many as well, MB over 4x.

It wasn't until the new models that their market share started to grow again, now at their 16 year high.

The inflection point for Lexus sales globally were the platform redesigns, and it was BARELY enough to be competitive.
Those younger buyers aged up and are now the group supporting their TX/RX/NX sales.

If what you claim is true, they wouldn't have been hit bigger than other manufacturers and lost volume sales titles to BMW, etc.

If anything all you've done is prove that I am right that Toyota is decentralizing Lexus and doesn't prioritize it.
Lexus has never been a smaller % of the Toyota sales volumes as it is now, despite the market share capture.

If Lexus had never introduced the spindle grille, people would have still bought new Lexus designs anyways. You cannot definitively disprove this.

You have again partially dis-proven your own argument. Yes, the platform redesigns of many Lexus models in 2012-2016 greatly helped sales. Those platform redesigns attracted buyers for many reasons besides the spindle grille. These platform redesigns were very well timed with a global economic recovery and the recovery for Toyota and its suppliers from the great Japan earthquake of 2011.

Toyota decentralizing and de-prioritizing Lexus (which is obvious) has nothing to do with your strange argument that the spindle grille was so critical to a turnaround. This is nothing more than conjecture. Like I said, you have no explicit, definitive, incontestable proof that the spindle grille design specifically on its own single-handedly led to a Lexus turnaround.

You've now resorted to introducing tangents and red herrings. Who cares about the Germans.

I've known a lot of Lexus owners in real life over the years. From 2012 until now, of all the Lexus owners I have spoken to, not a single one has told me that the reason they bought their Lexus was because they were attracted to the spindle grille design. Not one.

Internet forums, including this one, are not an accurate reflection of real life.

 

[ssun30]

It took them over 10 years to design one maybe two good looking cars with spindle grille (LC and 3.3IS). I personally like the new spindle body direction they are going. At least it's one of the least ugly designs in the post-Tesla age where every car tries to look as generic as possible.

 

[b.ba]

Random thought, do y'all think Akio became frustrated with how long the spindle grille took to design? I thought I remember when the current generation LS came out, reports were saying the spindle grill took months to perfect.

 

[CRSKTN]

people would have still bought new Lexus designs anyways.

What does this even mean?
If Lexus internally thought they could bring out something other that what they did and hit their targets, they would have.
They chose what they did for a reason. The fact they did, and it was barely enough already, and was criticized as being extreme at the time, shows it was the saving grace. In recent years their growth has slowed as they've lost their "edginess" as the rest of the market designs caught up.

It was literally the reason myself and everyone I know who has one (or had one) got into the brand, post redesign.

Their demographics shifted substantially and economically as a result.

https://carbuzz.com/features/old-lexus-owners-called-to-complain-about-the-new-radical-styling/

Nobody wants to deal with fucking people like this. It's a dead end and terrible market to have to cater to.

They used to sell primarily to people average age 60+. This is over 10% older than the average luxury buyer (~54 at the time).
The move to first gen spindle alone dropped average age of buyers by over 5 years, which is huge, given that it them in line with where other brands were when Lexus was at 60.

It came out the same year as brand new offerings from the Germans, and still managed to sweep even SUV buyers and younger buyers from the market in the 45 year old range on average (into the F sport models).

The GS was a failure with older audiences, which is why it was eventually atrophied to keep the ES.
They gave it a spindle grill and it tripled sales, vs the 2006 design which barely moved the needle YoY.
That still wasn't enough to save it in the line up.

Pre-spindle era was carried by the RX, as pre-2010 the Luxury SUV competition was weak.
Even with extreme redesigns it's barely captured incremental market from the X5, GLE, etc.

People who are buying an IS at age 60 are not ever buying an LS or other upmarket car.
Young buyers entering the brand worth 2x - 3x as much to them.
Growing your sales by 2/3rds in the same year all of your competition put out their hottest **** ever speaks to a redesign that worked.

If they could have just done another standard Lexus refresh and hit sales figures, they would have done that. They chose to do what they did because they saw the market outlook.

Lexus has actually backslid and average age of buyers has gotten older, which coincides with an inability to produce competitive offerings that have what younger buyers actually care about.

The F Sport offerings were instrumental in bringing in younger buyers, and in recent years they completely fumbled that too by not committing to F Sport and F and new models.

Young people (who then go on to become your next critical generational wave of buyers) were not buying this:

or this


or this

or this

 

[CIF]

What does this even mean?
If Lexus internally thought they could bring out something other that what they did and hit their targets, they would have.
They chose what they did for a reason. The fact they did, and it was barely enough already, and was criticized as being extreme at the time, shows it was the saving grace. In recent years their growth has slowed as they've lost their "edginess" as the rest of the market designs caught up.

It was literally the reason myself and everyone I know who has one (or had one) got into the brand, post redesign.

Their demographics shifted substantially and economically as a result.

https://carbuzz.com/features/old-lexus-owners-called-to-complain-about-the-new-radical-styling/

Nobody wants to deal with fucking people like this. It's a dead end and terrible market to have to cater to.

They used to sell primarily to people average age 60+. This is over 10% older than the average luxury buyer (~54 at the time).
The move to first gen spindle alone dropped average age of buyers by over 5 years, which is huge, given that it them in line with where other brands were when Lexus was at 60.

It came out the same year as brand new offerings from the Germans, and still managed to sweep even SUV buyers and younger buyers from the market in the 45 year old range on average (into the F sport models).

The GS was a failure with older audiences, which is why it was eventually atrophied to keep the ES.
They gave it a spindle grill and it tripled sales, vs the 2006 design which barely moved the needle YoY.
That still wasn't enough to save it in the line up.

Pre-spindle era was carried by the RX, as pre-2010 the Luxury SUV competition was weak.
Even with extreme redesigns it's barely captured incremental market from the X5, GLE, etc.

People who are buying an IS at age 60 are not ever buying an LS or other upmarket car.
Young buyers entering the brand worth 2x - 3x as much to them.
Growing your sales by 2/3rds in the same year all of your competition put out their hottest **** ever speaks to a redesign that worked.

If they could have just done another standard Lexus refresh and hit sales figures, they would have done that. They chose to do what they did because they saw the market outlook.

Lexus has actually backslid and average age of buyers has gotten older, which coincides with an inability to produce competitive offerings that have what younger buyers actually care about.

The F Sport offerings were instrumental in bringing in younger buyers, and in recent years they completely fumbled that too by not committing to F Sport and F and new models.

Young people (who then go on to become your next critical generational wave of buyers) were not buying this:
View attachment 10726
or this
View attachment 10727

or this
View attachment 10728
or this
View attachment 10729

First you said the spindle grille was critical to a turnaround, now you say F Sport was critical to bringing younger buyers. F Sport and the spindle grille are two different topics. F already existed before the spindle grille appeared. The first generation IS F, which debuted years BEFORE the spindle grille, was already bringing younger buyers to Lexus.

Anyways, everything you just mentioned is conjecture and opinion. You keep bringing up tangents and conflating different topics.

I will again rephrase in plain direct English what I've already said.

Do you have direct statistical facts from Toyota internally that show the spindle grille alone contributed to a significant turnaround for Lexus? You don't. Edgier design OVERALL which came along with the spindle grille is a separate topic. It's very likely that edgier design OVERALL contributed to a turnaround for Lexus. It's extremely likely you're conflating the spindle grille alone with edgier design overall. Can you prove otherwise with hard statistical facts from Toyota internally? No you cannot. Period. End of discussion. I will go no further in this childish fixation you have on this argument.

Finally, I say this with the utmost grace; you seem to have a lot of anger in you. You often get into emotional and angry arguments with other members on these forums here often for no good reason. The mods seem to continually let it slide. I don't know if it's due to a personal relationship you have with some of the mods but it's not a good look for these forums at all. I pray that you get help and find peace for your personal issues.

 

[Gor134]

It took them over 10 years to design one maybe two good looking cars with spindle grille (LC and 3.3IS). I personally like the new spindle body direction they are going. At least it's one of the least ugly designs in the post-Tesla age where every car tries to look as generic as possible.

I do like the now outgoing ES's variation of the spindle too. One of the best alongside the LC and 3.3IS(which is now ruined with the 3.4IS)

 

[CRSKTN]

F Sport and the spindle grille are two different topics.

They are not. F Sport was never a meaningful thing before the refreshes for consumers, and were barely a thing afterwards.
The F Sport designs weren't substantially different in design until the spindle refresh era and were the single sole factor that attracted people to the IS. You could tell how old the person who owned the IS was by whether or not it had the F Sport.
They even put the sliding LFA style gauge in the F Sport models.

You've fallen back all the way to "it wasn't specifically this piece of plastic in the front of the cars that increased sales LA LA LA LA" and "boy you seem angry".
That's how silly people argue.

The spindle grill movement, which covers the entire design and philosophy of the car, absolutely was the bare minimum they could do to turn the brand around, which it was, and it did. They've been coasting and they'll learn soon enough why they need to do more extreme stuff.

The entire redesign movement was built around the spindle grill segmenting.
Gor literally just highlighted this. No spindle = Completely different design language.

View attachment 10721View attachment 10722View attachment 10723View attachment 10724

Some interesting design documents I've found in the past for the Spindle.

Interesting to see it's transformation over the year, and how it's now going back to a separating design again!

 

[Ian Schmidt]

The spindle did not sit well in its earliest appearances, but the 5LS and 7ES looked fantastic with it and gave Lexus a real identity for a while. The new "spindle body" design so far looks like they're shipping an unfinished clay model, and I'm almost glad we won't see a real LS with it. They may yet crack the code on making it look really cohesive like the spindle did after a while, but right now I'm not a fan.