Next-Generation Lexus IS Sedan to be Offered with BMW Inline-Six Turbo Engine?

renyeo

It’s funny customers are buying more ESes because they are purportedly to be cheaper than the GS. Does this means the Lexus brand has been competing in the lower pricepoint market attracting buyer demographics that are different from the German cars customers?

Anyhow, it’d be great if Lexus could sell a new RWD ES (built on the GA-L platform no less) for less money than the GS going forward.

Trexus has soon good history noted here. I still have my 1992 ES 300 manual. It was originally marketed and pitted as a sporty luxury sedan believe it or not. Won quite a few comparos or at least fared very well. That said the market didn't buy it for that, they bought it since it was quite, comfy, etc. The next generation was also marketed a bit as sporty but it was obvious the 3 series buyer was not looking at the ES at this point. The ES became the baby LS, fluffy and great in everything but sport.

It was at this time the IS 200 (1997 I believe) was introduced in Europe and as the Altezza in Japan. Lexus realized they needed a true RWD car to battle the 3 series. In Europe it got a petrol I-6 and in Japan a high revving 4 cylinder. But we didn't get it until 2000 as a 2001 IS 300 with the 2JZ from the Supra. It fared well in comparisons but the engine just wasn't that fast unless you boosted it. Sales were okay but never amazing and dwindled fast. But Lexus saw they had a strong niche and a buyer that wanted an IS 300 and not an ES 300. These were people who otherwise probably wouldn't drive a Lexus or only a GS at the time. The ES at the time was a full blown luxury car, not 1 iota tuned to sport.

Fast forward to the 3rd gen which was beautiful but drove less sporty. Sales were great. At this time the ES was a full blown fluff mobile. Sales of the ES were great. The GS debuted but if you remember it had carryover engines which were not a hit in comparisons with the V-8. It also drove less sporty to the competition than the previous GS did. It was cramped to the ES. The IS was faster. The GS then was put in a weird spot by its own brand. Then the IS F came.

Lexus hit it out the park with the current IS which is arguably the best driving car in class. The interior is almost a throwback to the IS 200/300/Altezza. Interior room is better.

The GS languished for a long time. The new generation also is arguably the best driving car in class but most of the public hasn't taken notice. And I'm sorry but salespeople continue to push the ES not the GS. The ES is an easier sale.

The ES arguably is the sweeter looking car, especailly the rear 3/4 view. Its larger inside. Cheaper. The interior is not close to the GS but most I guess don't see the value in a smaller, sportier Lexus that costs more.

As you can see more than ever the GS has been squeezed by the IS and ES. To complicate matters, the RX is now sportier looking with an interior nearly on par with the GS. My wife is the perfect example of having and liking her GS F-Sport but never considered the GS F or any other GS when she saw the RX F-Sport.

Sigh :(

Trying to wrap this long post back to the IS, I expect the next generation to mix more luxury inside and maybe try to grab some GS buyers who won't consider an ES.

Please forgive me mods, but I want to start a thread on the Next Generation IS and see what people want from such a car. Luckily for you all, unlike the 2022 Infiniti Q50, it will remain somewhat traditional RWD, with AWD available.

A resurrection of IS-C or maybe even IC as in "IC 300h" might be a possibility for a 2-door RC replacement. That is speculation, not yet fact though based on poor RC sales and GS hiatus. It is likely the GS will suffer the same fate of the SC and only get a replacement under a different nameplate down the road.

Anyway, back to 4IS. Like the next RX, the 4IS is in development for GA-L. Next IS will likely debut a new design language, seen with the LS+ concept and likely intended for 5GS, inspired by triangular LC headlights. Bear in mind the GS-F rendering was made 1.5 years before the LS+. Internally, Lexus has some designs that echo this styling ethos. ES and UX may not have it yet, but by 2020 something will look like them.

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Please be realistic with what you think Lexus should aim to offer on this car. I say this, as a 550 horsepower IS-F isn't a reality. Thanks.

>>Stretch to current-gen Mark X dimensions to make it more practical.
>>Have a pricing structure that makes sense so it doesn't get eaten alive by the ES again.
>>EV variant.
>>Hybrid drivetrain for IS-F. They have been talking about THS-R on road vehicle for years, now they need to deliver.

ssun30

>>Stretch to current-gen Mark X dimensions to make it more practical.
>>Have a pricing structure that makes sense so it doesn't get eaten alive by the ES again.
>>EV variant.
>>Hybrid drivetrain for IS-F. They have been talking about THS-R on road vehicle for years, now they need to deliver.

Exactly, all those bullets is what I think they can do to make it a better proposition. Would a THSR (Toyota Hybrid System Racing) be the way to go forward for a lower end F model? If the LC and LS might get a 4.0 litre V8, would a biturbo 3.5 litre V6 be mated possibly to a 175-200KW+ electric motor for the IS? The current 8GR-FKS doesn't benefit from what is used on the V35A-FTS as the gas powerplant.

Can an EV version be well executed on the same GA-L setup as ICE models? Maybe mid-cycle, as I imagine they have their hands tied up with Mirai and LS plans, but if a CTe is a candidate, then why not? Some have the argument that you need a strictly EV platform not shared with ICE vehicles, to make a credible product. I don't believe that entirely.

In terms of price structure, I don't see how they can manage to undercut the ES that keeps being rumoured to start at the same pricepoint. Being more expensive than the ES might make more sense, if they have to upsize it and make up for no midlevel GS.

My focus is on a return on a IS F. I'm sure the IS will get bigger, sportier more luxurious etc. Will the IS F return? I am leaning toward it.

Also will the USA market finally get some IS hybrids? And the RC hybrid (I guess next IS coupe, no idea).

Carmaker1

Exactly, all those bullets is what I think they can do to make it a better proposition. Would a THSR (Toyota Hybrid System Racing) be the way to go forward for a lower end F model? If the LC and LS might get a 4.0 litre V8, would a biturbo 3.5 litre V6 be mated possibly to a 175-200KW+ electric motor for the IS? The current 8GR-FKS doesn't benefit from what is used on the V35A-FTS as the gas powerplant.

Can an EV version be well executed on the same GA-L setup as ICE models? Maybe mid-cycle, as I imagine they have their hands tied up with Mirai and LS plans, but if a CTe is a candidate, then why not? Some have the argument that you need a strictly EV platform not shared with ICE vehicles, to make a credible product. I don't believe that entirely.

In terms of price structure, I don't see how they can manage to undercut the ES that keeps being rumoured to start at the same pricepoint. Being more expensive than the ES might make more sense, if they have to upsize it and make up for no midlevel GS.

If lexus plans to upsize the IS, that's fine, as long as they keep the weight as low as possible. The current platform is just very heavy compare to competition.
As for GS, if they reinvent into something like a 4 door LC, that would be freaking awesome. Plus they said to themselves that tradition four door is dying and the only option is to make it more emotional / sportier.

Lexus desperately needs to reinvigorate and expand the IS line. First and foremost bring back the IS F, second bring the IS hybrid to North America and last bring back the IS Sportcross wagon.

IS 300 rwd
IS 300 awd
IS 300h
IS 350 sedan
IS 350 Sportcross wagon (competes with Audi A4 Allroad wagon)
IS F

Please just give us an F again! On release too not years later!

They likely wont do phevs, unless really required by government incentives... so far what we have read they will go directly to EVs, where required.

Carmaker1

Can an EV version be well executed on the same GA-L setup as ICE models? Maybe mid-cycle, as I imagine they have their hands tied up with Mirai and LS plans, but if a CTe is a candidate, then why not? Some have the argument that you need a strictly EV platform not shared with ICE vehicles, to make a credible product. I don't believe that entirely.

They just announced that C-HR will be their first EV in China... it will be presented by the end of the year. They also plan to have 10 EVs on sale in China by 2020, so we will know a lot more about them soon enough. I assume that most will be based on existing vehicles and that TNGA has been engineered for EVs from start.


Also, from Engine presentations about upcoming "TNGA" engines, we know we are missing few interesting engines:

So we are going to soon get 2 engines stronger than 3.5tt and one hybrid stronger than 300h. Also new 2.5t is below 3.5tt (rumors from Japan)

Seeing how many young buyers in China want an IS for the looks but couldn't afford one, I would say having an entry-level IS260 at a lower price point should definitely be on their radar. This is followed by a 300h which should be available globally (instead of just EU). They should skip the 300 (too little power) and go straight to a 350 with 2.5T. Then an IS-F with THS-R; stopping taking about it Lexus, show it. An EV would become the icing on the cake, as priorities should go to UX/NX/RX/CT(rumored) EVs.

The IS could coexist with ES at similar price points and not get eaten alive. The IS has always been aimed at a much younger (close to 20 years) demographics, unlike GS which more or less shares the same age group as the ES. With the GS now gone, the IS has an even bigger mission of carrying the sporty sedan image. It definitely needs a more aggressive look than the ES. If the ES is a smaller brother of the LS, the IS should be a smaller brother of the LC. Its price range will also need to expand, going downwards to scoop up more volume and upwards to fill holes left by the death of GS.

The IS is their gateway car. The success of the ES is unsustainable without a supply of young buyers that will upgrade in the future (although traditionally ES has been feeding on Camry buyers that want to go upmarket). BBA knows this very well; that's why they offer a very complete lineup of 3-series, C-class, and A4. The next IS needs to have a very strong debut and lineup if they want to survive in the ever shrinking sedan market.

New Forum member here. Carmaker1 I’ve been following your posts on various forums and appreciate your willingness to share knowledge.
I had been looking forward to replacing my G35 with the V38 Q50, but since that car just got Ghosned, I’m very interested in the next IS.
Most important want: stick to the GA-L rear wheel drive platform! If one is going to pay extra for a luxury/sport sedan, it should be the real deal, not a gussied-up Camry or Altima. Toyota doesn’t seem to have the management or financial issues of Nissan, so hopefully the IS won’t suffer the same fate as the Q50.
Other wants: make F Sport a real competitor to M Sport, Red Sport, etc.; not just visual and suspension upgrades. The days of making a 200hp entry level car, 300hp top “normal” car, and a 400-450hp bonkers car to fight the M3 are over. Bonkers is already 500-ish hp, and we’re talking about three years from now. There’s a hole in the IS lineup now.
Styling should be more aggressive than the LS or ES, but too much. A sport sedan should get its looks from good DNA (restart RWD platform rant here). To me the 2IS nailed it.
Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. Smartphones are no longer a fad, and automakers with few exceptions, are bad at making UIs. People are gonna use their phones, automakers should concentrate on how to safely integrate them, not replace them.
My two cents, FWIW.

Welcome to LE @Ch'Pok

Carmaker1

Anyway, back to 4IS. Like the next RX, the 4IS is in development for GA-L.

Wait, what? RX is going RWD?

The next generation Lexus IS has got to be a home run. The IS has to debut on the all new GA-L platform and brand new dynamic engines. The IS has to have a fresh and aggressive new exterior and please Lexus make the triple L premium Led headlights available in the USA at least. As a matter of fact make them available right now for the current generation. The interior also more luxury looking but still sporty at the same time. The driving dynamics have to be amazing. Lexus needs a new four cylinder engine with 270 plus hp.This has to be available in both rwd and AWD. Lexus also bring over a hybrid engine over. You will just gain even more customers if you do. Next a turbo six cylinder engine is a must for the IS. This engine should have 350 plus hp. Lastly please Lexus bring back the ISF. The ISF should have 450 plus hp or close to 500 hp.

Lexus should also make a all new entry level two coupe and convertible. Just called it the RC or renamed it the SC. Have the same engine options as the new IS. Make the new RCF or SCF a true m4 killer.

Gecko

Wait, what? RX is going RWD?

Well, not exactly. I just was referring to company developments, since everything else has been redesigned or killed off. The RX is 760X, but at times I question the intense similarity of the LF-1 Limitless to the RX and if upscaling the RX family to GA-L isn't a bad idea against X5 and GLE? Then NX on GA-K?

650b is the actual program code for that LF1

Bluesuprarcf52

The next generation Lexus IS has got to be a home run. The IS has to debut on the all new GA-L platform and brand new dynamic engines. The IS has to have a fresh and aggressive new exterior and please Lexus make the triple L premium Led headlights available in the USA at least.

Actually, the IS might look more like the LS+ concept, so Triple LED implementation might not be necessity with such a design.

Bluesuprarcf52

Lexus should also make a all new entry level two coupe and convertible. Just called it the RC or renamed it the SC. Have the same engine options as the new IS. Make the new RCF or SCF a true m4 killer.

While RC nameplate could easily remain, instead of a new IS parallel coupe (IC?), an SC just isn't going to happen again in this market, when the LC exists.

Carmaker1

Well, not exactly. I just was referring to company developments, since everything else has been redesigned or killed off. The RX is 760X, but at times I question the intense similarity of the LF-1 Limitless to the RX and if upscaling the RX family to GA-L isn't a bad idea against X5 and GLE? Then NX on GA-K?

650b is the actual program code for that LF1



Actually, the IS might look more like the LS+ concept, so Triple LED implementation might not be necessity with such a design.



While RC nameplate could easily remain, instead of a new IS parallel coupe (IC?), an SC just isn't going to happen again in this market, when the LC exists.

Carmaker1

Well, not exactly. I just was referring to company developments, since everything else has been redesigned or killed off. The RX is 760X, but at times I question the intense similarity of the LF-1 Limitless to the RX and if upscaling the RX family to GA-L isn't a bad idea against X5 and GLE? Then NX on GA-K?

650b is the actual program code for that LF1
What name do you think the Lf-1 production might be call?


Actually, the IS might look more like the LS+ concept, so Triple LED implementation might not be necessity with such a design.



While RC nameplate could easily remain, instead of a new IS parallel coupe (IC?), an SC just isn't going to happen again in this market, when the LC exists.

Thanks. I was just saying if Lexus doesn't want to reuse the RC nameplate then they should reused the SC nameplate. Lexus better make a entry level coupe again. Do you think there is a good chance that a third coupe might join the lineup,maybe more as Porsche 911 competitor.

Carmaker1

Well, not exactly. I just was referring to company developments, since everything else has been redesigned or killed off. The RX is 760X, but at times I question the intense similarity of the LF-1 Limitless to the RX and if upscaling the RX family to GA-L isn't a bad idea against X5 and GLE? Then NX on GA-K?

650b is the actual program code for that LF1



Actually, the IS might look more like the LS+ concept, so Triple LED implementation might not be necessity with such a design.



While RC nameplate could easily remain, instead of a new IS parallel coupe (IC?), an SC just isn't going to happen again in this market, when the LC exists.

Lastly when do you think the LCF and LSF might come out? Second gen LFA?

Maybe I'm thinking a little too simplistic here, can't they slap in the TTV6 from the LS into the IS as an IS350 successor and voila? Then a V8 for the IS-F again? Upgrade the turbo 4-cylinder to have better NVH and a slight increase in power/torque? Lastly implanting the genius multistage hybrid system for a hybrid model?

Bluesuprarcf52

Lastly when do you think the LCF and LSF might come out? Second gen LFA?

2020 most likely.

F1 Silver Arrows

Maybe I'm thinking a little too simplistic here, can't they slap in the TTV6 from the LS into the IS as an IS350 successor and voila? Then a V8 for the IS-F again? Upgrade the turbo 4-cylinder to have better NVH and a slight increase in power/torque? Lastly implanting the genius multistage hybrid system for a hybrid model?

An IS 450 makes perfect sense to me. IS 350 should NOT be the range topper anymore. Either a detuned V35A-FTS or a 3.0L Dynamic Force TTV6. ISF V8? Nah. It will be V35A-FTS or similar with added improvements.

Ch’Pok

New Forum member here. Carmaker1 I’ve been following your posts on various forums and appreciate your willingness to share knowledge.
I had been looking forward to replacing my G35 with the V38 Q50, but since that car just got Ghosned, I’m very interested in the next IS.
Most important want: stick to the GA-L rear wheel drive platform! If one is going to pay extra for a luxury/sport sedan, it should be the real deal, not a gussied-up Camry or Altima. Toyota doesn’t seem to have the management or financial issues of Nissan, so hopefully the IS won’t suffer the same fate as the Q50.
Other wants: make F Sport a real competitor to M Sport, Red Sport, etc.; not just visual and suspension upgrades. The days of making a 200hp entry level car, 300hp top “normal” car, and a 400-450hp bonkers car to fight the M3 are over. Bonkers is already 500-ish hp, and we’re talking about three years from now. There’s a hole in the IS lineup now.
Styling should be more aggressive than the LS or ES, but too much. A sport sedan should get its looks from good DNA (restart RWD platform rant here). To me the 2IS nailed it.
Apple CarPlay and Android Auto. Smartphones are no longer a fad, and automakers with few exceptions, are bad at making UIs. People are gonna use their phones, automakers should concentrate on how to safely integrate them, not replace them.
My two cents, FWIW.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that my man. Here is an early look at a proposal by designer C. Lee from 2016 for it, at Design Centre Atsugi in 2016. Things have wrapped up now, with major changes along the way. This was during ideation sketching.

View attachment 2845 View attachment 2846 View attachment 2847 View attachment 2848 View attachment 2849

Trexus

Lexus desperately needs to reinvigorate and expand the IS line. First and foremost bring back the IS F, second bring the IS hybrid to North America and last bring back the IS Sportcross wagon.

IS 300 rwd
IS 300 awd
IS 300h
IS 350 sedan
IS 350 Sportcross wagon (competes with Audi A4 Allroad wagon)
IS F

I think:

IS 300 RWD Dynamic Force Turbo 4 Cylinder RWD
IS 300 I4 T AWD
IS 300h RWD/AWD THS
IS 350 RWD 2GR-FKS (LS 350 318hp)
IS 350 AWD
IS 450 RWD Twin-Turbo 3.0L V6
IS 450 AWD TTV6
IS F RWD High Output V35A-FTS 3.5L V6?

IC Coupe (replaces RC?)
IC Cabrio

IS SportCross in 300 and 450 grades.

Oooooh @Carmaker1 lovin it when you keep sharing such juicy info. ;) Even if it may be hypothetical! Appreciate everything you do! :D

Carmaker1

I think:

IS 300 RWD Dynamic Force Turbo 4 Cylinder RWD
IS 300 I4 T AWD
IS 300h RWD/AWD THS
IS 350 RWD 2GR-FKS (LS 350 318hp)
IS 350 AWD
IS 450 RWD Twin-Turbo 3.0L V6
IS 450 AWD TTV6
IS F RWD High Output V35A-FTS 3.5L V6?

IC Coupe (replaces RC?)
IC Cabrio

IS SportCross in 300 and 450 grades.

Well I think it makes sense to skip 300 directly to 350. With 260 and 300h at the bottom, a 300 won't make much sense in EU or China, while it will be underpowered in the U.S. when competitors move up to the 200kW/270hp class by then. Also with a 2019 debut, would they even bother with the 2GR-FKS, an engine near EOL?

A 450 will only happen if they want a mirror image of the 43AMG-Lite/63AMG duo strategy. So it will become a V35A-FTS (doesn't even need to be detuned, competitors will be in the 300kW/400hp class in 2020) and a V35A-FTS hybrid duo?

One thing they could take advantage of is the compactness of the V35, which allows a front-mid layout. This leaves enough space to put a pair of torque-vectoring motors in front of the front axle, making the next IS-F AWD with electric boost.

It is difficult to know what the IS should be if we don't have a full image of the Lexus model portfolio. Before sportscars could be had in all sizes and prices, now only in big size with a lot of power and high price - prestige (GT86 and MX5 exception). Same thing might be (is?) happening with sedans. Ironically Mercedes, BMW and Audi make A Class Sedan, 1 Series Sedan and A3 Sedan, but we should remember China is the driver here. For how long?

ssun30

>>Stretch to current-gen Mark X dimensions to make it more practical

sl0519

If lexus plans to upsize the IS, that's fine, as long as they keep the weight as low as possible.

I've always been a small-car guy and opted to keep my 2nd-gen IS as opposed to replacing it with the longer 3rd-gen. Nonetheless, I see the Chinese writing on the wall. In the West, the Lexus IS is no longer the rear-legroom runt of its class, a position taken over by the Cadillac ATS and the Jaguar XE. But ATS and XE either already offer stretched "L' versions in China or will do so shortly. Lexus IS, on the other hand, doggedly sticks to a single shorter wheelbase.

The (TN)GA-L RWD architecture has, thus far, been released in 3 wheelbase lengths:
2870mm (113") for Lexus LC
2920mm (115") for Toyota Crown Concept / upcoming 15th-gen Crown
3125 mm (123") for 5th-gen Lexus LS

Conventional wisdom would've suggested a continuation of the Toyota Crown / Lexus GS platform relationship dating back to the original Toyota Aristo. With the GS now out of the picture, though, will the 4IS step up to the Crown platform-mate role? I certainly think so. Coincidentally (or not?), the Lexus LC sits on a 50mm shorter wheelbase than Crown15, just like 3IS sits on a 50mm shorter wheelbase version of the New N platform than 4GS. Yet, between the 7ES and 5LS growth spurts and the premium the Chinese market places on rear legroom, I don't think a 4IS on the shorter LC wheelbase would make sense or be particularly competitive.

And what will happen to the third Mark X? Would it be a third RWD sibling to 4IS and Crown15? Or a reworked FWD Avalon5?

Carmaker1

2020 most likely.



An IS 450 makes perfect sense to me. IS 350 should NOT be the range topper anymore. Either a detuned V35A-FTS or a 3.0L Dynamic Force TTV6. ISF V8? Nah. It will be V35A-FTS or similar with added improvements.



Well, thank you. I appreciate that my man. Here is an early look at a proposal by designer C. Lee from 2016 for it, at Design Centre Atsugi in 2016. Things have wrapped up now, with major changes along the way. This was during ideation sketching.

View attachment 2845 View attachment 2846 View attachment 2847 View attachment 2848 View attachment 2849



I think:

IS 300 RWD Dynamic Force Turbo 4 Cylinder RWD
IS 300 I4 T AWD
IS 300h RWD/AWD THS
IS 350 RWD 2GR-FKS (LS 350 318hp)
IS 350 AWD
IS 450 RWD Twin-Turbo 3.0L V6
IS 450 AWD TTV6
IS F RWD High Output V35A-FTS 3.5L V6?

IC Coupe (replaces RC?)
IC Cabrio

IS SportCross in 300 and 450 grades.

Makes me sad for what could have been for the Q50. Lexus has an opportunity to poach some customers...

Carmaker1

2020 most likely.



An IS 450 makes perfect sense to me. IS 350 should NOT be the range topper anymore. Either a detuned V35A-FTS or a 3.0L Dynamic Force TTV6. ISF V8? Nah. It will be V35A-FTS or similar with added improvements.



Well, thank you. I appreciate that my man. Here is an early look at a proposal by designer C. Lee from 2016 for it, at Design Centre Atsugi in 2016. Things have wrapped up now, with major changes along the way. This was during ideation sketching.

View attachment 2845 View attachment 2846 View attachment 2847 View attachment 2848 View attachment 2849



I think:

IS 300 RWD Dynamic Force Turbo 4 Cylinder RWD
IS 300 I4 T AWD
IS 300h RWD/AWD THS
IS 350 RWD 2GR-FKS (LS 350 318hp)
IS 350 AWD
IS 450 RWD Twin-Turbo 3.0L V6
IS 450 AWD TTV6
IS F RWD High Output V35A-FTS 3.5L V6?

IC Coupe (replaces RC?)
IC Cabrio

IS SportCross in 300 and 450 grades.

When it comes to engines, we have this powertrain official presentation from TMC... I doubt there will be other new engines aside from this.

I keep quoting this pic, but I think everyone needs to see it over and over again:



So lets assume:

- IS450 - 3.5ltt - this is only one thats easy.
- IS300 - massaged 2.0t AR engine existing.

- IS300h or IS350h or IS450h? There is engine missing between 300h and 450h in the pic above. What is it and how does it fit? There is confirmed info that next gen Highlander will have 4cly hybrid. This cant be just standard 300h with 208-215hp - Highlander is too big for that in the USA. So it has to be some more powerful engine but it will still be 4cly. This will then likely go into IS and of course RX.

- IS350 - standard V6 for TNGA, base engine for USA.
and/or
- IS350 - new 2.5t that replaces V6 engine in other markets? 2.5t has been rumored for a while. I dont see US market preferring it over V6 though.

spwolf

So lets assume:
- IS300 - massaged 2.0t AR engine existing.

Would they keep using 8AR-FTS for new TNGA vehicles launched after 2019? Surely it will live on some legacy models, but I doubt the IS will be using it. An IS300 would not go low enough in China (IS260 is a more appropriate entry-level model), nor high enough in US (competition will move to the 200kW/280hp class which is better covered by the 2.5T).

spwolf

- IS300h or IS350h or IS450h? There is engine missing between 300h and 450h in the pic above. What is it and how does it fit? There is confirmed info that next gen Highlander will have 4cly hybrid. This cant be just standard 300h with 208-215hp - Highlander is too big for that in the USA. So it has to be some more powerful engine but it will still be 4cly. This will then likely go into IS and of course RX.

I feel the hybrid system between the 300h and 500h is the 450h. The FKS-based 2.5 hybrid with high output battery (for the time being let's call it 350h) that could appear on the Highlander should be considered a variant of the 300h. The 450h could be a turbo hybrid utilizing either 2.0T or 2.5T ICE. Offering a 350h and 450h is consistent with their twin hybrid strategy. A more affordable RX350h is something they certainly need in Europe.

Going back to the IS, I doubt EU will care about the 300h losing 13hp if price is reduced (and actual power at the wheels should be comparable due to efficiency improvements). Then a 450h in the 225-250kW class could be the flagship non-F model, should they not choose to do an F-lite/F strategy.

spwolf

- IS350 - standard V6 for TNGA, base engine for USA.

Like the 8AR-FTS, the 2GR-FKS will be near EOL in 2019 and should only be used on legacy models. Launching yet another IS350 with 310hp is asking for embarrassment.

Joaquin Ruhi

I've always been a small-car guy and opted to keep my 2nd-gen IS as opposed to replacing it with the longer 3rd-gen. Nonetheless, I see the Chinese writing on the wall. In the West, the Lexus IS is no longer the rear-legroom runt of its class, a position taken over by the Cadillac ATS and the Jaguar XE. But ATS and XE either already offer stretched "L' versions in China or will do so shortly. Lexus IS, on the other hand, doggedly sticks to a single shorter wheelbase.

The (TN)GA-L RWD architecture has, thus far, been released in 3 wheelbase lengths:
2870mm (113") for Lexus LC
2920mm (115") for Toyota Crown Concept / upcoming 15th-gen Crown
3125 mm (123") for 5th-gen Lexus LS

Conventional wisdom would've suggested a continuation of the Toyota Crown / Lexus GS platform relationship dating back to the original Toyota Aristo. With the GS now out of the picture, though, will the 4IS step up to the Crown platform-mate role? I certainly think so. Coincidentally (or not?), the Lexus LC sits on a 50mm shorter wheelbase than Crown15, just like 3IS sits on a 50mm shorter wheelbase version of the New N platform than 4GS. Yet, between the 7ES and 5LS growth spurts and the premium the Chinese market places on rear legroom, I don't think a 4IS on the shorter LC wheelbase would make sense or be particularly competitive.

Nice analysis here. A recurring theme with TNGA Lexus is a reduction of space efficiency in exchange for styling and driving dynamics. Making the LS500 with FMR layout is a wonderful decision and they should do that for the IS as well. It seems that enlarging the IS to Mark X size will add little to no cabin space.

Another recurring theme is sizing their base model to match LWB variants of their German competitors so they don't need a stretch in China (although it's debatable for the LS). But I doubt they need to do the same on the IS. A common misconception about China's obsession with LWB is that everyone cares about legroom, but the real number they care is overall length. The C-Class L/3-series L/A4L/ATS-L actually target two different demographics: young middle-class with limited wealth and small business owners who want an affordable company car. It's the latter group that really need that extra leg room, but Lexus has that covered with the ES200. Therefore the IS only needs to target young people who only need the rear to be "not cramped". The LC wheel base should be sufficient to have usable space in the rear, they could do a lot to make this work.

Actually, with a length of 4800mm and a wheel base of 2870mm, this hypothetical new IS will be as large as previous generations of Aristo/GS. It will not be a small car.

ssun30

Would they keep using 8AR-FTS for new TNGA vehicles launched after 2019? Surely it will live on some legacy models, but I doubt the IS will be using it. An IS300 would not go low enough in China (IS260 is a more appropriate entry-level model), nor high enough in US (competition will move to the 200kW/280hp class which is better covered by the 2.5T).



I feel the hybrid system between the 300h and 500h is the 450h. The FKS-based 2.5 hybrid with high output battery (for the time being let's call it 350h) that could appear on the Highlander should be considered a variant of the 300h. The 450h could be a turbo hybrid utilizing either 2.0T or 2.5T ICE. Offering a 350h and 450h is consistent with their twin hybrid strategy. A more affordable RX350h is something they certainly need in Europe.

Going back to the IS, I doubt EU will care about the 300h losing 13hp if price is reduced (and actual power at the wheels should be comparable due to efficiency improvements). Then a 450h in the 225-250kW class could be the flagship non-F model, should they not choose to do an F-lite/F strategy.


Like the 8AR-FTS, the 2GR-FKS will be near EOL in 2019 and should only be used on legacy models. Launching yet another IS350 with 310hp is asking for embarrassment.

- 2.5t is replacement for 3.5 V6... it is not going to happen in US where people prefer V6. 2.5t is likely more expensive to produce too.
- 2.0t as base, sure... they will use that engine for quite a while... just improve it and it will likely be much better fit for TNGA than old platform.
- 300h will not lose 13hp in EU... it will simply have different tuning for RWD with more hp, look below.
- IS300h had 181hp from engine, NX300h has 155hp from engine, Camry has 176hp from engine. So 5+ hp extra from exhaust, etc, then 5hp extra in battery power will bring us to more than IS300h. But this is not enough for Highlander and RX. What they could possibly do is use non-atkinson version of engine, like old GS450h for instance, from Camry - so 205hp + 45hp from battery output and thats 250hp... pretty reasonable for Highlander! It can still go into atkinson cycle like Camry engine, just not all the time. It will still be very efficient compared to 450h engine.

Neither 8AR nor 2GR will reach AOL in next 5 years or so.

Lots of manufacturers like Volvo are saying how these are their last generation engines btw.