Next-Generation Lexus IS Sedan to be Offered with BMW Inline-Six Turbo Engine?

bogglo

just make IS the size of the 4GS since the ES is already as spacious as the LS. if they can do that with a lot of variation to satisfy current IS owners and also capture the GS customers then they will be good. The marketing team should do the same with the advert.

Toyota will never the 4G IS will be the size of a GS. Because if they do, they are effectively indirectly making the IS the next GS. And if that happens, the ES sales will run-over the IS sales, like it did for the GS.

The problem was never the Lexus GS. The problem is the Lexus ES has become a major volume seller for the mass demographic that Toyota doesn't want to let it go. The average/mass demographic consumer will buy the Lexus ES over the GS because it was cheaper and offered similar amount. On top of the fact that the average buyer doesn't care about performance or driving dynamics. This is why GS sales tanked. This is why GS is going to get cancelled.

Taking that information and translating it into the debate on the 4G Lexus IS. We know the average mass demographic does not give a hoot about performance or driving dynamics. This is one of the reasons why I think a Lexus IS400 (with a TTV6) will never exist because the cost making of it won't justify the profit. Almost no one will buy the IS400, like how rarely anyone buys the 340i. Majority of the 3 Series on the road are 320i, 325i, 328i, and 330i.
Don't take my word for it - just take a look on the road and/or check AutoTrader for an easy example.
Here's the example:
I live in the San Francisco Bay Area - with a current population of 7.15 million people right now.
From my house - I set a 100 mile radius looking for BMW 3 Series. (100 millions is way past the Bay Area and will include Sacramento and then some).
I also set the years to 2006 to 2019 (Because the 335i started in 2006)
This on AutoTrader netted me 1000+ results for all BMW 3 Series.
Then I filtered it to only BMW 335i, 335i xDrive, 335is, 340i, 340i xDrive.
This on AutoTrader netted me only 195 results for all BMW 335i/340i. Effectively - this shows or gives us an idea - how often a high performance "3 Series" (that's not a M) is bought. Which is very very not often at all.

This goes back to why I believe the Lexus IS300/Lexus IS350 will relatively remain the same with the same 8AR/2GR engine. Or contain minor tweeks to the engine. And/or have a IS300h introduced.
Toyota would want to keep the Lexus IS300 because that's their base-engine and that's the IS main money maker. And to keep the cost low for people to buy it - they would have to cut-cost.
However, I think they will make the TTV6 IS-F because they can use that hype up the IS brand marque. Like how BMW and MB use M/AMG to hype up their 3/C line up.

bogglo

just make IS the size of the 4GS since the ES is already as spacious as the LS. if they can do that with a lot of variation to satisfy current IS owners and also capture the GS customers then they will be good. The marketing team should do the same with the advert.

Toyota will never the 4G IS will be the size of a GS. Because if they do, they are effectively indirectly making the IS the next GS. And if that happens, the ES sales will run-over the IS sales, like it did for the GS.

The problem was never the Lexus GS. The problem is the Lexus ES has become a major volume seller for the mass demographic that Toyota doesn't want to let it go. The average/mass demographic consumer will buy the Lexus ES over the GS because it was cheaper and offered similar amount. On top of the fact that the average buyer doesn't care about performance or driving dynamics. This is why GS sales tanked. This is why GS is going to get cancelled.

Taking that information and translating it into the debate on the 4G Lexus IS. We know the average mass demographic does not give a hoot about performance or driving dynamics. This is one of the reasons why I think a Lexus IS400 (with a TTV6) will never exist because the cost making of it won't justify the profit. Almost no one will buy the IS400, like how rarely anyone buys the 340i. Majority of the 3 Series on the road are 320i, 325i, 328i, and 330i.
Don't take my word for it - just take a look on the road and/or check AutoTrader for an easy example.
Here's the example:
I live in the San Francisco Bay Area - with a current population of 7.15 million people right now.
From my house - I set a 100 mile radius looking for BMW 3 Series. (100 millions is way past the Bay Area and will include Sacramento and then some).
I also set the years to 2006 to 2019 (Because the 335i started in 2006)
This on AutoTrader netted me 1000+ results for all BMW 3 Series.
Then I filtered it to only BMW 335i, 335i xDrive, 335is, 340i, 340i xDrive.
This on AutoTrader netted me only 195 results for all BMW 335i/340i. Effectively - this shows or gives us an idea - how often a high performance "3 Series" (that's not a M) is bought. Which is very very not often at all.

This goes back to why I believe the Lexus IS300/Lexus IS350 will relatively remain the same with the same 8AR/2GR engine. Or contain minor tweeks to the engine. And/or have a IS300h introduced.
Toyota would want to keep the Lexus IS300 because that's their base-engine and that's the IS main money maker. And to keep the cost low for people to buy it - they would have to cut-cost.
However, I think they will make the TTV6 IS-F because they can use that hype up the IS brand marque. Like how BMW and MB use M/AMG to hype up their 3/C line up.

@Sakura while i agree with most of your post, GS issues are its own... GS did the best in the USA, despite ES... it did worse everywhere else where ES was not even available.

@Sakura while i agree with most of your post, GS issues are its own... GS did the best in the USA, despite ES... it did worse everywhere else where ES was not even available.

joepac

Did I pee on your lawn bro? Lol damn...

And it was my brother in law...:p

My point was not about the IS350 Fsport being a flop in sales but in the performance arena (save the win in the C&D article "Habemas Papem"). Is the IS Fsport cars so much better than their non fsport counterparts? It is all marketing. The only option I like about the Fsport IS350 is the gimmicky gauge cluster and maybe the suspension. I own a 2010 IS350 Luxury edition. Almost bought the sport edition (in 2010 this would have been the equivalent to the F sport model as the options were almost identical in 2011 when the fsport debuted) but it lacked cooled seats, the rear sunshade and my ML sound system. And the driving experience was almost identical except for a smidge tighter suspension in the sport. So I went with the luxury model.

I have driven both the 3is fsport and non fsport (both 200t and 350) and can't tell a huge difference though I admit I haven't put either through their paces but in general were near identical to me.

So the fsport may be a success because it sold more but again from a performance standpoint it's negligible In my opinion (can we have those around here?) and when I buy a car it is for my needs.

F-sport is actually more comprehensive package than amg sport, s line or msport that BMW used to present new 3 series.
With Germans you can actually just buy small part of the package and a badge, while F-Sport is chasis/exterior/interior package.

So it is actually better than Germans, it needs to be repeated over and over.

joepac

Did I pee on your lawn bro? Lol damn...

And it was my brother in law...:p

My point was not about the IS350 Fsport being a flop in sales but in the performance arena (save the win in the C&D article "Habemas Papem"). Is the IS Fsport cars so much better than their non fsport counterparts? It is all marketing. The only option I like about the Fsport IS350 is the gimmicky gauge cluster and maybe the suspension. I own a 2010 IS350 Luxury edition. Almost bought the sport edition (in 2010 this would have been the equivalent to the F sport model as the options were almost identical in 2011 when the fsport debuted) but it lacked cooled seats, the rear sunshade and my ML sound system. And the driving experience was almost identical except for a smidge tighter suspension in the sport. So I went with the luxury model.

I have driven both the 3is fsport and non fsport (both 200t and 350) and can't tell a huge difference though I admit I haven't put either through their paces but in general were near identical to me.

So the fsport may be a success because it sold more but again from a performance standpoint it's negligible In my opinion (can we have those around here?) and when I buy a car it is for my needs.

F-sport is actually more comprehensive package than amg sport, s line or msport that BMW used to present new 3 series.
With Germans you can actually just buy small part of the package and a badge, while F-Sport is chasis/exterior/interior package.

So it is actually better than Germans, it needs to be repeated over and over.

Sakura

Similarity - the Lexus IS350 competes with the BMW 330i. With the BMW 330i equipped to similar features of the Lexus IS350, we are looking at that Lexus IS350 costing 50K with the 330i pushing close to 58K.
Despite lease deal - the Lexus IS will still be cheaper in this option.

IS will be cheaper via MSRP but I am not familiar with current lease rates, which is where MSRP becomes a moot point. When Lexus lease rates are higher because of residual values and BMW subsidizes theirs, an $8k difference in MSRP doesn't mean the cheaper IS is going to actually be cheaper to lease.

I get what you are saying. You are saying that if the Lexus IS300 had similar specs to the 330i and the Lexus IS350 was the M340i competitor, sales will boom/increase. I disagree with you here. If you look at the Lexus IS250/IS350 sales back in 2006, it nearly matches the same sale numbers of the 2014 Lexus IS250/350. What I'm saying is - 8 years later - with the same engine - the car sold almost the same.

Not necessarily. Having more competitive engines would help, but it's not the only issue - CarPlay, Android Auto, better accessories, an IS F would have all helped. But we are also talking about the same flagship engine dating back to 2006 - it is now 13 model years later - 2006 to 2014 to 2018 with the same V6 and an underperforming 2.0T is really lazy, especially when competition is even more fierce and there is a market shift to SUVs. Lexus has done nothing to invest in/update the IS to keep it relevant.

True. People respond to how a car drives behind the wheel. Those people are car enthusiasts or people that relatively care about cars to a point. What about for the mass demographic of people? The elder generation? The younger millennial that don't really care as long they have access to a car? Chances are they might not care. The Lexus demographic doesn't care about the performance. Majority of Lexus IS owners are Lexus IS250 and IS300 owners. But this is also why I agree that the IS300h needs to be introduced. It'll sell well in the USA.

Also not what I meant. The car buying public gets into a car and they want it to feel "fast enough," "comfortable enough," "smooth enough," etc - most never even look at the spec sheet aside from MPG. Many don't even know engine size or output. It's the enthusiast who knows the spec sheet and how the car performs relative to the competition. For that enthusiast, the IS 350 has lost its appeal - do you remember the endless comparisons in 2006/2007 with 335i, S4, Mustang, etc? Nobody cared when the third gen debuted with the same exact engine. It was old news at that point. Even 2.0T vs. 2.0T, the A4 and 330i feel much faster and more refined than the 8AR-FTS. I haven't driven a 320i, so I can't comment on that but if a 180hp BMW feels on par with a 241hp Lexus motor, we have a problem.

While the 330i is similar to the IS350 because they are in the same competition, its not true you can lease a 330i for cheaper than a Lexus IS300. If you want a 330i with options that are similar to the IS, you won't be able to lease cheaper. If you are talking about a shell and option-less 330i, then yes it can be cheaper. But if the BMW 330i is option less, how is it a competitor to the Lexus IS?

Quick googling shows 330i leases starting at $329/mo in my area, and IS 300 leases starting at $433. I found one 330i with MSRP of $48k leasing for $397/mo. The most expensive IS 300 I could find around me had an MSRP of $45k and was leasing for $497/mo. I really do not have the time to option up cars and compare them feature-for-feature, but every time I've looked at real world pricing data or helped friends/family shop, the IS does not lease favorably compared to 3 series, and most sales in this class are leases. The numbers above prove this point pretty well.

Sakura

Similarity - the Lexus IS350 competes with the BMW 330i. With the BMW 330i equipped to similar features of the Lexus IS350, we are looking at that Lexus IS350 costing 50K with the 330i pushing close to 58K.
Despite lease deal - the Lexus IS will still be cheaper in this option.

IS will be cheaper via MSRP but I am not familiar with current lease rates, which is where MSRP becomes a moot point. When Lexus lease rates are higher because of residual values and BMW subsidizes theirs, an $8k difference in MSRP doesn't mean the cheaper IS is going to actually be cheaper to lease.

I get what you are saying. You are saying that if the Lexus IS300 had similar specs to the 330i and the Lexus IS350 was the M340i competitor, sales will boom/increase. I disagree with you here. If you look at the Lexus IS250/IS350 sales back in 2006, it nearly matches the same sale numbers of the 2014 Lexus IS250/350. What I'm saying is - 8 years later - with the same engine - the car sold almost the same.

Not necessarily. Having more competitive engines would help, but it's not the only issue - CarPlay, Android Auto, better accessories, an IS F would have all helped. But we are also talking about the same flagship engine dating back to 2006 - it is now 13 model years later - 2006 to 2014 to 2018 with the same V6 and an underperforming 2.0T is really lazy, especially when competition is even more fierce and there is a market shift to SUVs. Lexus has done nothing to invest in/update the IS to keep it relevant.

True. People respond to how a car drives behind the wheel. Those people are car enthusiasts or people that relatively care about cars to a point. What about for the mass demographic of people? The elder generation? The younger millennial that don't really care as long they have access to a car? Chances are they might not care. The Lexus demographic doesn't care about the performance. Majority of Lexus IS owners are Lexus IS250 and IS300 owners. But this is also why I agree that the IS300h needs to be introduced. It'll sell well in the USA.

Also not what I meant. The car buying public gets into a car and they want it to feel "fast enough," "comfortable enough," "smooth enough," etc - most never even look at the spec sheet aside from MPG. Many don't even know engine size or output. It's the enthusiast who knows the spec sheet and how the car performs relative to the competition. For that enthusiast, the IS 350 has lost its appeal - do you remember the endless comparisons in 2006/2007 with 335i, S4, Mustang, etc? Nobody cared when the third gen debuted with the same exact engine. It was old news at that point. Even 2.0T vs. 2.0T, the A4 and 330i feel much faster and more refined than the 8AR-FTS. I haven't driven a 320i, so I can't comment on that but if a 180hp BMW feels on par with a 241hp Lexus motor, we have a problem.

While the 330i is similar to the IS350 because they are in the same competition, its not true you can lease a 330i for cheaper than a Lexus IS300. If you want a 330i with options that are similar to the IS, you won't be able to lease cheaper. If you are talking about a shell and option-less 330i, then yes it can be cheaper. But if the BMW 330i is option less, how is it a competitor to the Lexus IS?

Quick googling shows 330i leases starting at $329/mo in my area, and IS 300 leases starting at $433. I found one 330i with MSRP of $48k leasing for $397/mo. The most expensive IS 300 I could find around me had an MSRP of $45k and was leasing for $497/mo. I really do not have the time to option up cars and compare them feature-for-feature, but every time I've looked at real world pricing data or helped friends/family shop, the IS does not lease favorably compared to 3 series, and most sales in this class are leases. The numbers above prove this point pretty well.

Sakura

From my house - I set a 100 mile radius looking for BMW 3 Series. (100 millions is way past the Bay Area and will include Sacramento and then some).
I also set the years to 2006 to 2019 (Because the 335i started in 2006)
This on AutoTrader netted me 1000+ results for all BMW 3 Series.
Then I filtered it to only BMW 335i, 335i xDrive, 335is, 340i, 340i xDrive.
This on AutoTrader netted me only 195 results for all BMW 335i/340i. Effectively - this shows or gives us an idea - how often a high performance "3 Series" (that's not a M) is bought. Which is very very not often at all.

That's the not-so-secret of MB and BMW's sales dominance - it's turbo 4s all the way down.

Sakura

From my house - I set a 100 mile radius looking for BMW 3 Series. (100 millions is way past the Bay Area and will include Sacramento and then some).
I also set the years to 2006 to 2019 (Because the 335i started in 2006)
This on AutoTrader netted me 1000+ results for all BMW 3 Series.
Then I filtered it to only BMW 335i, 335i xDrive, 335is, 340i, 340i xDrive.
This on AutoTrader netted me only 195 results for all BMW 335i/340i. Effectively - this shows or gives us an idea - how often a high performance "3 Series" (that's not a M) is bought. Which is very very not often at all.

That's the not-so-secret of MB and BMW's sales dominance - it's turbo 4s all the way down.

Gecko

IS will be cheaper via MSRP but I am not familiar with current lease rates, which is where MSRP becomes a moot point. When Lexus lease rates are higher because of residual values and BMW subsidizes theirs, an $8k difference in MSRP doesn't mean the cheaper IS is going to actually be cheaper to lease.

Not necessarily. Having more competitive engines would help, but it's not the only issue - CarPlay, Android Auto, better accessories, an IS F would have all helped. But we are also talking about the same flagship engine dating back to 2006 - it is now 13 model years later - 2006 to 2014 to 2018 with the same V6 and an underperforming 2.0T is really lazy, especially when competition is even more fierce and there is a market shift to SUVs. Lexus has done nothing to invest in/update the IS to keep it relevant.

Also not what I meant. The car buying public gets into a car and they want it to feel "fast enough," "comfortable enough," "smooth enough," etc - most never even look at the spec sheet aside from MPG. Many don't even know engine size or output. It's the enthusiast who knows the spec sheet and how the car performs relative to the competition. For that enthusiast, the IS 350 has lost its appeal - do you remember the endless comparisons in 2006/2007 with 335i, S4, Mustang, etc? Nobody cared when the third gen debuted with the same exact engine. It was old news at that point. Even 2.0T vs. 2.0T, the A4 and 330i feel much faster and more refined than the 8AR-FTS. I haven't driven a 320i, so I can't comment on that but if a 180hp BMW feels on par with a 241hp Lexus motor, we have a problem.

Quick googling shows 330i leases starting at $329/mo in my area, and IS 300 leases starting at $433. I found one 330i with MSRP of $48k leasing for $397/mo. The most expensive IS 300 I could find around me had an MSRP of $45k and was leasing for $497/mo. I really do not have the time to option up cars and compare them feature-for-feature, but every time I've looked at real world pricing data or helped friends/family shop, the IS does not lease favorably compared to 3 series, and most sales in this class are leases. The numbers above prove this point pretty well.

But the thing is - in terms of competition and comparing cars together - MSRP isn't a moot point. Its the actual point. Its the relation of price, features and performance. Just because a car leases cheaper - doesn't mean we can compare those cars together.
If we do that, that's effectively saying we can compare a Q50 Red Sport to that of a Lexus IS300. Q50 Red Sport lease prices are dirt cheap. We have to take consideration of all factors, not just money.

Actually - its debatable. You can add more competitive engines, more models, and more everything. The question is - what is the mass demographic going to buy and how much would it cost to make these cars to net profit. You can add fast engines but if barely anyone buys it - there is no point in making it and selling it.
Toyota has to see a reason to make a TTV6 Lexus IS400 or put the TTV6 into the Lexus IS350. My point is - if barely anyone buys the V6 IS350 already, why would they waste time tweaking the whole car just for it to have TTV6? Just to please the enthusiast? That boat sailed long ago.

Actually - no. The 2GR engine family itself dates back to 2002 but the engine that's in the IS350 is the 2GR-FKS which only dates back to 2015. The 2006 IS350 V6 is not the same V6 we have in today's IS350.
This goes back to my original point. The 2GR is likely to stay in the IS350 and best cast situation is that they tweak it again for more power.

The mistake is that people keep comparing the Lexus IS300 turbo to the likes of the Audi A4 Quattro 2.0T, 330i, and C300. We have to stop doing that. The Lexus IS300 turbo is a base turbo that was meant to compete with the A4 Ultra FWD 2.0T, 320i and Q50 2.0T. Its a detuned turbo 4 for the entry-level market. It is the mass-market Lexus IS.
We have to stop assuming because the Lexus IS250 compete with the 325i back in the day that the now new Lexus IS300 competes with the new 330i. Competitions change.

There are 2 versions of the A4 and 3 Series 2.0T. The 8AR competes with the detuned versions of that. However - Lexus made them better than those. Think about it this way - the Lexus IS300 slots above the A4 Ultra and 320i but below the A4 Quattro and 330i. Like I said before - the Lexus IS300 is the best base entry-level luxury sedan model you can buy.
Its better than the Q50 2.0T, A4 Ultra and 320i. You can assume Lexus made it better than them while being slower than the 330i, A4 Ultra, and 3.0T Silver Sport to take sales.

Yes. I remember the 2G Lexus IS350 being compared to the Mustang and 335i. I would argue we don't put the Mustang in the equation because the Mustang was behind on its time. At the time - the Mustang was a joke of a car.
But I know what you mean - you want the Lexus IS350 back to those glory days. Like I said before - the competition has changed and new models has been introduced.
If Lexus wants to compete in this competition, they can with a TTV6 Lexus IS400. They can make that, and still sell a IS300/IS350 for mass market consumers. However - Toyota is all about the $$$ which is the biggest reason why we will see a Lexus IS-F TTV6 before IS400.

Yeah. The mass, average demographic, probably feels a sub 7-8 second 0-60 car is fast enough. I would count my dad as a "average mass market" consumer. He, when we speak about cars, think 7-8 seconds is insanely fast already. People that think under 5 seconds for 0-60 is consider "fast" or "decent" is not mass market demographic buyers.
This is why cars like the Lexus IS300 and BMW 320i sold so well among buyers. Its because they thought it was fast enough.
This is why cars like the Lexus IS350, 340i, C43 AMG, Q50 Red Sport, Camry XSE V6, Accord V6/2.0T, and pretty much any "faster" version of a car never sold that well. People usually think the base model is fast enough for them because mass market buyers don't really care that much about speed. If they did, the market would have changed. If people cared about performance, like enthusiasts do, the average 0-60 car speed would be 5 seconds long ago.

I disagree. Your last point just proved my point that the cheaper/lesser optioned 330i leases better than a loaded Lexus IS300.
In the context of the BMW you found - it could be seen as basically a 330i with M Sport Pack with premier tier and then nothing else on it. This BMW 330i will not have blind spot warning, adaptive cruise control, sound system, and etc... will come to 48K. This is why the BMW 330i you found leases cheap. It barely has anything on it.
If you compare a loaded 330i and a loaded Lexus IS300 - option per option - we are looking at a 58K 330i and a 45K Lexus IS300. That is a 13K difference in sticker. The Lexus IS300 will lease cheaper.

Gecko

IS will be cheaper via MSRP but I am not familiar with current lease rates, which is where MSRP becomes a moot point. When Lexus lease rates are higher because of residual values and BMW subsidizes theirs, an $8k difference in MSRP doesn't mean the cheaper IS is going to actually be cheaper to lease.

Not necessarily. Having more competitive engines would help, but it's not the only issue - CarPlay, Android Auto, better accessories, an IS F would have all helped. But we are also talking about the same flagship engine dating back to 2006 - it is now 13 model years later - 2006 to 2014 to 2018 with the same V6 and an underperforming 2.0T is really lazy, especially when competition is even more fierce and there is a market shift to SUVs. Lexus has done nothing to invest in/update the IS to keep it relevant.

Also not what I meant. The car buying public gets into a car and they want it to feel "fast enough," "comfortable enough," "smooth enough," etc - most never even look at the spec sheet aside from MPG. Many don't even know engine size or output. It's the enthusiast who knows the spec sheet and how the car performs relative to the competition. For that enthusiast, the IS 350 has lost its appeal - do you remember the endless comparisons in 2006/2007 with 335i, S4, Mustang, etc? Nobody cared when the third gen debuted with the same exact engine. It was old news at that point. Even 2.0T vs. 2.0T, the A4 and 330i feel much faster and more refined than the 8AR-FTS. I haven't driven a 320i, so I can't comment on that but if a 180hp BMW feels on par with a 241hp Lexus motor, we have a problem.

Quick googling shows 330i leases starting at $329/mo in my area, and IS 300 leases starting at $433. I found one 330i with MSRP of $48k leasing for $397/mo. The most expensive IS 300 I could find around me had an MSRP of $45k and was leasing for $497/mo. I really do not have the time to option up cars and compare them feature-for-feature, but every time I've looked at real world pricing data or helped friends/family shop, the IS does not lease favorably compared to 3 series, and most sales in this class are leases. The numbers above prove this point pretty well.

But the thing is - in terms of competition and comparing cars together - MSRP isn't a moot point. Its the actual point. Its the relation of price, features and performance. Just because a car leases cheaper - doesn't mean we can compare those cars together.
If we do that, that's effectively saying we can compare a Q50 Red Sport to that of a Lexus IS300. Q50 Red Sport lease prices are dirt cheap. We have to take consideration of all factors, not just money.

Actually - its debatable. You can add more competitive engines, more models, and more everything. The question is - what is the mass demographic going to buy and how much would it cost to make these cars to net profit. You can add fast engines but if barely anyone buys it - there is no point in making it and selling it.
Toyota has to see a reason to make a TTV6 Lexus IS400 or put the TTV6 into the Lexus IS350. My point is - if barely anyone buys the V6 IS350 already, why would they waste time tweaking the whole car just for it to have TTV6? Just to please the enthusiast? That boat sailed long ago.

Actually - no. The 2GR engine family itself dates back to 2002 but the engine that's in the IS350 is the 2GR-FKS which only dates back to 2015. The 2006 IS350 V6 is not the same V6 we have in today's IS350.
This goes back to my original point. The 2GR is likely to stay in the IS350 and best cast situation is that they tweak it again for more power.

The mistake is that people keep comparing the Lexus IS300 turbo to the likes of the Audi A4 Quattro 2.0T, 330i, and C300. We have to stop doing that. The Lexus IS300 turbo is a base turbo that was meant to compete with the A4 Ultra FWD 2.0T, 320i and Q50 2.0T. Its a detuned turbo 4 for the entry-level market. It is the mass-market Lexus IS.
We have to stop assuming because the Lexus IS250 compete with the 325i back in the day that the now new Lexus IS300 competes with the new 330i. Competitions change.

There are 2 versions of the A4 and 3 Series 2.0T. The 8AR competes with the detuned versions of that. However - Lexus made them better than those. Think about it this way - the Lexus IS300 slots above the A4 Ultra and 320i but below the A4 Quattro and 330i. Like I said before - the Lexus IS300 is the best base entry-level luxury sedan model you can buy.
Its better than the Q50 2.0T, A4 Ultra and 320i. You can assume Lexus made it better than them while being slower than the 330i, A4 Ultra, and 3.0T Silver Sport to take sales.

Yes. I remember the 2G Lexus IS350 being compared to the Mustang and 335i. I would argue we don't put the Mustang in the equation because the Mustang was behind on its time. At the time - the Mustang was a joke of a car.
But I know what you mean - you want the Lexus IS350 back to those glory days. Like I said before - the competition has changed and new models has been introduced.
If Lexus wants to compete in this competition, they can with a TTV6 Lexus IS400. They can make that, and still sell a IS300/IS350 for mass market consumers. However - Toyota is all about the $$$ which is the biggest reason why we will see a Lexus IS-F TTV6 before IS400.

Yeah. The mass, average demographic, probably feels a sub 7-8 second 0-60 car is fast enough. I would count my dad as a "average mass market" consumer. He, when we speak about cars, think 7-8 seconds is insanely fast already. People that think under 5 seconds for 0-60 is consider "fast" or "decent" is not mass market demographic buyers.
This is why cars like the Lexus IS300 and BMW 320i sold so well among buyers. Its because they thought it was fast enough.
This is why cars like the Lexus IS350, 340i, C43 AMG, Q50 Red Sport, Camry XSE V6, Accord V6/2.0T, and pretty much any "faster" version of a car never sold that well. People usually think the base model is fast enough for them because mass market buyers don't really care that much about speed. If they did, the market would have changed. If people cared about performance, like enthusiasts do, the average 0-60 car speed would be 5 seconds long ago.

I disagree. Your last point just proved my point that the cheaper/lesser optioned 330i leases better than a loaded Lexus IS300.
In the context of the BMW you found - it could be seen as basically a 330i with M Sport Pack with premier tier and then nothing else on it. This BMW 330i will not have blind spot warning, adaptive cruise control, sound system, and etc... will come to 48K. This is why the BMW 330i you found leases cheap. It barely has anything on it.
If you compare a loaded 330i and a loaded Lexus IS300 - option per option - we are looking at a 58K 330i and a 45K Lexus IS300. That is a 13K difference in sticker. The Lexus IS300 will lease cheaper.

I don't get this debate about lease prices. It's the sales department's problem if their lease prices are uncompetitive not the product's own problem, right?

I don't get this debate about lease prices. It's the sales department's problem if their lease prices are uncompetitive not the product's own problem, right?

With incentives, cash back, rebates, subsidized leasing and everything else, MSRP is not how you determine "how much you pay for a car." The most important determining factor for every car shopper is monthly payment as that is the real cost to own. MSRP is the starting point - then there is negotiating, incentives, lease offers, loyalty cash, conquest cash, rebates, etc. BMW is simply much more aggressive in how they promote and sell/lease 3er than Lexus is with the IS.

Talking about the cost of "loaded" models, 3er also offers many options you can't even get on IS, namely leather, 360 cameras, CarPlay, etc. (Since when can you not even get leather on any Lexus? I wasn't aware of this.) Loaded IS is cheaper MSRP than loaded 330i because the BMW offers a lot of options Lexus doesn't. Spec'd out as closely as I can get them, there is about a $4k premium for BMW between IS 300 and 330i.

I am still trying to understand how you determine that IS 300 competes with 320i and A4 base - just price alone? Or because Lexus doesn't offer an even "more base" engine? You refer to the 8AR-FTS as "detuned entry level turbo four" but there is no "tuned up" 2.0T like BMW or Audi offer

Lexus 2.0T (IS 300):
241hp, 258 lb-ft of torque

BMW 320i:
180 hp, 200 lb-ft of torque

Audi A4 TFSI:
190 hp, 236 lb-ft

With incentives, cash back, rebates, subsidized leasing and everything else, MSRP is not how you determine "how much you pay for a car." The most important determining factor for every car shopper is monthly payment as that is the real cost to own. MSRP is the starting point - then there is negotiating, incentives, lease offers, loyalty cash, conquest cash, rebates, etc. BMW is simply much more aggressive in how they promote and sell/lease 3er than Lexus is with the IS.

Talking about the cost of "loaded" models, 3er also offers many options you can't even get on IS, namely leather, 360 cameras, CarPlay, etc. (Since when can you not even get leather on any Lexus? I wasn't aware of this.) Loaded IS is cheaper MSRP than loaded 330i because the BMW offers a lot of options Lexus doesn't. Spec'd out as closely as I can get them, there is about a $4k premium for BMW between IS 300 and 330i.

I am still trying to understand how you determine that IS 300 competes with 320i and A4 base - just price alone? Or because Lexus doesn't offer an even "more base" engine? You refer to the 8AR-FTS as "detuned entry level turbo four" but there is no "tuned up" 2.0T like BMW or Audi offer

Lexus 2.0T (IS 300):
241hp, 258 lb-ft of torque

BMW 320i:
180 hp, 200 lb-ft of torque

Audi A4 TFSI:
190 hp, 236 lb-ft

Gecko

With incentives, cash back, rebates, subsidized leasing and everything else, MSRP is not how you determine "how much you pay for a car." The most important determining factor for every car shopper is monthly payment as that is the real cost to own. MSRP is the starting point - then there is negotiating, incentives, lease offers, loyalty cash, conquest cash, rebates, etc. BMW is simply much more aggressive in how they promote and sell/lease 3er than Lexus is with the IS.

Talking about the cost of "loaded" models, 3er also offers many options you can't even get on IS, namely leather, 360 cameras, CarPlay, etc. (Since when can you not even get leather on any Lexus? I wasn't aware of this.) Loaded IS is cheaper MSRP than loaded 330i because the BMW offers a lot of options Lexus doesn't. Spec'd out as closely as I can get them, there is about a $4k premium for BMW between IS 300 and 330i.

I am still trying to understand how you determine that IS 300 competes with 320i and A4 base - just price alone? Or because Lexus doesn't offer an even "more base" engine? You refer to the 8AR-FTS as "detuned entry level turbo four" but there is no "tuned up" 2.0T like BMW or Audi offer

Lexus 2.0T (IS 300):
241hp, 258 lb-ft of torque

BMW 320i:
180 hp, 200 lb-ft of torque

Audi A4 TFSI:
190 hp, 236 lb-ft

When has someone ever compares a vehicle using lease prices? Reviews and comparisons always state the sticker prices. You state sticker price within the competition to compare to other cars with similar prices because the sticker price is fixed. Lease prices, negotiations, and etc... is determined by the dealer. Meaning if you compare lease prices, wouldn't I be able to compare a Q50 Red Sport (that can be leased for less than $350 dollars) to a F30 BMW M3? However - the Red Sport doesn't compete with the F30 M3 despite the near performance numbers.
Edit: I'm not talking about during shopping. I'm just talking about comparisons without going to the dealer and negotiating. This is where usually people just compare stickers.

While its true that BMW can start a "special" offer of a low lease price, but that's for stripper models with no options. If you look at optioned out BMWs, that's based off of your own negotiations, dealer and location.

That's false, its not a 4K difference.
Here's the break down:
$45,000 for M Sport 330i (because you want to compare to the F-Sport)
$47,900 for the Premium Tier (because its the closest tier to the Lexus IS300) BMW is ahead with BMW HUD at this point in features.
$550 for black paint. (Lexus is free)
$0 for Sentac leather (BMW Fake Leather - to match with Lexus fake leather)
$500 for driving assist pack
$190 for heated wheel
$750 for park distance
$500 for Active blind spot detection
$1200 for adaptive cruise control
Total with destination: $52,585
Side note: this BMW 330i I just packaged above doesn't have 360 camera (that's executive tier) and Apple Car Play isn't packaged either.
Conclusion: The loaded Lexus IS300 price, with all those features the BMW 330i has (excluding the HUD), comes out to be only 45K. This is a 7.5K price difference. Again - this goes back to my point - loaded option per option - the BMW 330i is more expensive not because it has "more features" its because its overpriced. You will not be able to lease a 52.5K BMW 330i for less than a Lexus IS300 with the same options.

The Lexus IS300 competes with the Infiniti Q50 2.0T, Audi A4 Ultra, and BMW 320i because:
1) Price
2) All are entry-level base engine models
3) All of them carry nearly the same features. IE: BMW 320i doesn't have HUD or 360 Camera available to option.
4) Similar performance figures. IE: They all run high 6s to 7s 0-60.

I'm curious too - how did you determine the Lexus IS300 competes with the BMW 330i and A4 Quattro 2.0T? When the 330i and A4 cost significantly more, its faster, and has more features?

That's because Lexus doesn't have a "powerful" turbo 4. Their "detuned" turbo 4 is pretty much their V6 engine. Think about it this way - the Lexus IS300 = BMW 320i, Lexus IS350 = BMW 330i and Lexus doesn't have a 340i car.

Gecko

With incentives, cash back, rebates, subsidized leasing and everything else, MSRP is not how you determine "how much you pay for a car." The most important determining factor for every car shopper is monthly payment as that is the real cost to own. MSRP is the starting point - then there is negotiating, incentives, lease offers, loyalty cash, conquest cash, rebates, etc. BMW is simply much more aggressive in how they promote and sell/lease 3er than Lexus is with the IS.

Talking about the cost of "loaded" models, 3er also offers many options you can't even get on IS, namely leather, 360 cameras, CarPlay, etc. (Since when can you not even get leather on any Lexus? I wasn't aware of this.) Loaded IS is cheaper MSRP than loaded 330i because the BMW offers a lot of options Lexus doesn't. Spec'd out as closely as I can get them, there is about a $4k premium for BMW between IS 300 and 330i.

I am still trying to understand how you determine that IS 300 competes with 320i and A4 base - just price alone? Or because Lexus doesn't offer an even "more base" engine? You refer to the 8AR-FTS as "detuned entry level turbo four" but there is no "tuned up" 2.0T like BMW or Audi offer

Lexus 2.0T (IS 300):
241hp, 258 lb-ft of torque

BMW 320i:
180 hp, 200 lb-ft of torque

Audi A4 TFSI:
190 hp, 236 lb-ft

When has someone ever compares a vehicle using lease prices? Reviews and comparisons always state the sticker prices. You state sticker price within the competition to compare to other cars with similar prices because the sticker price is fixed. Lease prices, negotiations, and etc... is determined by the dealer. Meaning if you compare lease prices, wouldn't I be able to compare a Q50 Red Sport (that can be leased for less than $350 dollars) to a F30 BMW M3? However - the Red Sport doesn't compete with the F30 M3 despite the near performance numbers.
Edit: I'm not talking about during shopping. I'm just talking about comparisons without going to the dealer and negotiating. This is where usually people just compare stickers.

While its true that BMW can start a "special" offer of a low lease price, but that's for stripper models with no options. If you look at optioned out BMWs, that's based off of your own negotiations, dealer and location.

That's false, its not a 4K difference.
Here's the break down:
$45,000 for M Sport 330i (because you want to compare to the F-Sport)
$47,900 for the Premium Tier (because its the closest tier to the Lexus IS300) BMW is ahead with BMW HUD at this point in features.
$550 for black paint. (Lexus is free)
$0 for Sentac leather (BMW Fake Leather - to match with Lexus fake leather)
$500 for driving assist pack
$190 for heated wheel
$750 for park distance
$500 for Active blind spot detection
$1200 for adaptive cruise control
Total with destination: $52,585
Side note: this BMW 330i I just packaged above doesn't have 360 camera (that's executive tier) and Apple Car Play isn't packaged either.
Conclusion: The loaded Lexus IS300 price, with all those features the BMW 330i has (excluding the HUD), comes out to be only 45K. This is a 7.5K price difference. Again - this goes back to my point - loaded option per option - the BMW 330i is more expensive not because it has "more features" its because its overpriced. You will not be able to lease a 52.5K BMW 330i for less than a Lexus IS300 with the same options.

The Lexus IS300 competes with the Infiniti Q50 2.0T, Audi A4 Ultra, and BMW 320i because:
1) Price
2) All are entry-level base engine models
3) All of them carry nearly the same features. IE: BMW 320i doesn't have HUD or 360 Camera available to option.
4) Similar performance figures. IE: They all run high 6s to 7s 0-60.

I'm curious too - how did you determine the Lexus IS300 competes with the BMW 330i and A4 Quattro 2.0T? When the 330i and A4 cost significantly more, its faster, and has more features?

That's because Lexus doesn't have a "powerful" turbo 4. Their "detuned" turbo 4 is pretty much their V6 engine. Think about it this way - the Lexus IS300 = BMW 320i, Lexus IS350 = BMW 330i and Lexus doesn't have a 340i car.

Gecko

With incentives, cash back, rebates, subsidized leasing and everything else, MSRP is not how you determine "how much you pay for a car." The most important determining factor for every car shopper is monthly payment as that is the real cost to own.

He is right. People walk in to discuss payment. Dealers advertise payments. Thus some brands have more leverage and you can get a 60k car for the same monthly has a 45k one. Infiniti and BMW more than anyone subsidizes leases where some models/packages are super attractive. Quite frankly it is really tough to beat a Q50 when you can lease them for $299/$399/$499 with minimal down. Those are Camry payments.

If people are cross shopping cars, they sure as hell are cross shopping payments.

Only the rare really savvy buyer discusses MSRP and negotiates from there.

It is of my opinion cross shopping is overrated and more an internet thing. I find people want what they want and already know it. They might consider something else if it is cheaper or they surprisingly fall in in love with it.

I help people with buying/leasing cars all the time. Rarely is someone totally unbiased and comparing cars on facts, test drives etc. Most like the looks, like the badge, want some features (NAV etc) and want a cheap payment.

Gecko

With incentives, cash back, rebates, subsidized leasing and everything else, MSRP is not how you determine "how much you pay for a car." The most important determining factor for every car shopper is monthly payment as that is the real cost to own.

He is right. People walk in to discuss payment. Dealers advertise payments. Thus some brands have more leverage and you can get a 60k car for the same monthly has a 45k one. Infiniti and BMW more than anyone subsidizes leases where some models/packages are super attractive. Quite frankly it is really tough to beat a Q50 when you can lease them for $299/$399/$499 with minimal down. Those are Camry payments.

If people are cross shopping cars, they sure as hell are cross shopping payments.

Only the rare really savvy buyer discusses MSRP and negotiates from there.

It is of my opinion cross shopping is overrated and more an internet thing. I find people want what they want and already know it. They might consider something else if it is cheaper or they surprisingly fall in in love with it.

I help people with buying/leasing cars all the time. Rarely is someone totally unbiased and comparing cars on facts, test drives etc. Most like the looks, like the badge, want some features (NAV etc) and want a cheap payment.

Whoever said the IS200t/300 (8AR-FTS) competes with the 320i is absolutely correct. The 330i compares with the IS350, and honestly in acceleration, blows its doors off despite being only 4 cylinders. The 320i and IS200t are more evenly paired. On paper I believe the 320i is either identical in acceleration or .01 slower (negligible at best). I believe 6.9 vs 7.0 or 7.1.

The turbo IS does have bigger brakes and bigger standard tire package. It's overall competitive with the 330i in other merits of performance, just not in terms of engine output/acceleration. The 320i is just a software detuned 328i.

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

Whoever said the IS200t/300 (8AR-FTS) competes with the 320i is absolutely correct. The 330i compares with the IS350, and honestly in acceleration, blows its doors off despite being only 4 cylinders. The 320i and IS200t are more evenly paired. On paper I believe the 320i is either identical in acceleration or .01 slower (negligible at best). I believe 6.9 vs 7.0 or 7.1.

The turbo IS does have bigger brakes and bigger standard tire package. It's overall competitive with the 330i in other merits of performance, just not in terms of engine output/acceleration. The 320i is just a software detuned 328i.

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

ssun30

I don't get this debate about lease prices. It's the sales department's problem if their lease prices are uncompetitive not the product's own problem, right?

mikeavelli

He is right. People walk in to discuss payment. Dealers advertise payments. Thus some brands have more leverage and you can get a 60k car for the same monthly has a 45k one. Infiniti and BMW more than anyone subsidizes leases where some models/packages are super attractive. Quite frankly it is really tough to beat a Q50 when you can lease them for $299/$399/$499 with minimal down. Those are Camry payments.

If people are cross shopping cars, they sure as hell are cross shopping payments.

Only the rare really savvy buyer discusses MSRP and negotiates from there.

It is of my opinion cross shopping is overrated and more an internet thing. I find people want what they want and already know it. They might consider something else if it is cheaper or they surprisingly fall in in love with it.

I help people with buying/leasing cars all the time. Rarely is someone totally unbiased and comparing cars on facts, test drives etc. Most like the looks, like the badge, want some features (NAV etc) and want a cheap payment.

Lexus gives that kind of support to cars likeRX, not IS... every manufacturer picks which are their core vehicles.

ssun30

I don't get this debate about lease prices. It's the sales department's problem if their lease prices are uncompetitive not the product's own problem, right?

mikeavelli

He is right. People walk in to discuss payment. Dealers advertise payments. Thus some brands have more leverage and you can get a 60k car for the same monthly has a 45k one. Infiniti and BMW more than anyone subsidizes leases where some models/packages are super attractive. Quite frankly it is really tough to beat a Q50 when you can lease them for $299/$399/$499 with minimal down. Those are Camry payments.

If people are cross shopping cars, they sure as hell are cross shopping payments.

Only the rare really savvy buyer discusses MSRP and negotiates from there.

It is of my opinion cross shopping is overrated and more an internet thing. I find people want what they want and already know it. They might consider something else if it is cheaper or they surprisingly fall in in love with it.

I help people with buying/leasing cars all the time. Rarely is someone totally unbiased and comparing cars on facts, test drives etc. Most like the looks, like the badge, want some features (NAV etc) and want a cheap payment.

Lexus gives that kind of support to cars likeRX, not IS... every manufacturer picks which are their core vehicles.

CT2IS

Whoever said the IS200t/300 (8AR-FTS) competes with the 320i is absolutely correct. The 330i compares with the IS350, and honestly in acceleration, blows its doors off despite being only 4 cylinders. The 320i and IS200t are more evenly paired. On paper I believe the 320i is either identical in acceleration or .01 slower (negligible at best). I believe 6.9 vs 7.0 or 7.1.

The turbo IS does have bigger brakes and bigger standard tire package. It's overall competitive with the 330i in other merits of performance, just not in terms of engine output/acceleration. The 320i is just a software detuned 328i.

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

How about giving it a much better MPG than the BMW via mild electrification? I don't mind the 4IS being slower by a second or two than the mid-level G20 if it means it can get 50% more MPG than a BMW when city-driving and maybe 30% in highway driving. In order of priority: reliability, handling, fuel economy, other creature comforts. I don't mind sticking a smartphone mount if there isn't any Android Auto on the 4IS.

I think most who purchase a Lexus keeps the car longer than the typical 3-4 year lease period. Let's not kid ourselves, if money and functionality were no object for me, I would get a Porsche Cayman but it's too impractical for my household.

Also, from the article, BMW engineers were so surprised why each part, including bolts, were being sent to head office for further studies. :)

CT2IS

Whoever said the IS200t/300 (8AR-FTS) competes with the 320i is absolutely correct. The 330i compares with the IS350, and honestly in acceleration, blows its doors off despite being only 4 cylinders. The 320i and IS200t are more evenly paired. On paper I believe the 320i is either identical in acceleration or .01 slower (negligible at best). I believe 6.9 vs 7.0 or 7.1.

The turbo IS does have bigger brakes and bigger standard tire package. It's overall competitive with the 330i in other merits of performance, just not in terms of engine output/acceleration. The 320i is just a software detuned 328i.

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

How about giving it a much better MPG than the BMW via mild electrification? I don't mind the 4IS being slower by a second or two than the mid-level G20 if it means it can get 50% more MPG than a BMW when city-driving and maybe 30% in highway driving. In order of priority: reliability, handling, fuel economy, other creature comforts. I don't mind sticking a smartphone mount if there isn't any Android Auto on the 4IS.

I think most who purchase a Lexus keeps the car longer than the typical 3-4 year lease period. Let's not kid ourselves, if money and functionality were no object for me, I would get a Porsche Cayman but it's too impractical for my household.

Also, from the article, BMW engineers were so surprised why each part, including bolts, were being sent to head office for further studies. :)

CT2IS

Whoever said the IS200t/300 (8AR-FTS) competes with the 320i is absolutely correct. The 330i compares with the IS350, and honestly in acceleration, blows its doors off despite being only 4 cylinders. The 320i and IS200t are more evenly paired. On paper I believe the 320i is either identical in acceleration or .01 slower (negligible at best). I believe 6.9 vs 7.0 or 7.1.

The turbo IS does have bigger brakes and bigger standard tire package. It's overall competitive with the 330i in other merits of performance, just not in terms of engine output/acceleration. The 320i is just a software detuned 328i.

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

I was the one that said that and thank you for agreeing. :)

Yes. Lexus does have a lot of catching up to do if it wants to compete with the G20 M340i. But its not that much catching up. They have the tech and engine ready already. Its a matter of if they want to create a Lexus IS400 TTV6 to compete with the M340i.

I see the 4G Lexus IS line up going two ways:
1) Lexus IS300, 350, and 400
2) Lexus IS300, 350 and IS-F. My money is on the IS-F because its likely to come before a IS400.

CT2IS

Whoever said the IS200t/300 (8AR-FTS) competes with the 320i is absolutely correct. The 330i compares with the IS350, and honestly in acceleration, blows its doors off despite being only 4 cylinders. The 320i and IS200t are more evenly paired. On paper I believe the 320i is either identical in acceleration or .01 slower (negligible at best). I believe 6.9 vs 7.0 or 7.1.

The turbo IS does have bigger brakes and bigger standard tire package. It's overall competitive with the 330i in other merits of performance, just not in terms of engine output/acceleration. The 320i is just a software detuned 328i.

Lexus has some serious catching up to do if it wants to compete with the upcoming 0-60 in 4.2s G20 340i.

Remember... Lexus thinks BMW powertrains are so great, they chose the BMW 4-turbo and BMW 6-turbo instead of using their own powerplants for the new Supra. Even chief Lexus engineer said he was impressed with BMW engineering during the new Supra/Z4 collab.

I was the one that said that and thank you for agreeing. :)

Yes. Lexus does have a lot of catching up to do if it wants to compete with the G20 M340i. But its not that much catching up. They have the tech and engine ready already. Its a matter of if they want to create a Lexus IS400 TTV6 to compete with the M340i.

I see the 4G Lexus IS line up going two ways:
1) Lexus IS300, 350, and 400
2) Lexus IS300, 350 and IS-F. My money is on the IS-F because its likely to come before a IS400.

internalaudit

How about giving it a much better MPG than the BMW via mild electrification?

Mild hybrid is not cheaper than full hybrid, and that's the problem which prevents it from really spreading. Lexus will have an entire full hybrid lineup by 2025, for them mild hybrid is an unnecessary technological dead-end. Many supporters of the mild hybrid are European manufacturers who invested too much into the soon-to-be-dead diesel technology and cannot catch up in the hybrid game.

internalaudit

How about giving it a much better MPG than the BMW via mild electrification?

Mild hybrid is not cheaper than full hybrid, and that's the problem which prevents it from really spreading. Lexus will have an entire full hybrid lineup by 2025, for them mild hybrid is an unnecessary technological dead-end. Many supporters of the mild hybrid are European manufacturers who invested too much into the soon-to-be-dead diesel technology and cannot catch up in the hybrid game.