Next-Generation Lexus IS Sedan to be Offered with BMW Inline-Six Turbo Engine?

zeusus

You think its a flop because it didn't serve your needs.

In the real world, the IS F Sport is a huge success with overwhelming number of customers opting for the package over base. The success of IS and GS F Sport justified execution of the package into the rest of the models we see today.

Perhaps your brother is just a better driver. :cool::fist:



In other news, the new renderings look good. Current IS still looks good even when put up with competitors of the same year. C class has the worst design in the segment.

Did I pee on your lawn bro? Lol damn...

And it was my brother in law...:p

My point was not about the IS350 Fsport being a flop in sales but in the performance arena (save the win in the C&D article "Habemas Papem"). Is the IS Fsport cars so much better than their non fsport counterparts? It is all marketing. The only option I like about the Fsport IS350 is the gimmicky gauge cluster and maybe the suspension. I own a 2010 IS350 Luxury edition. Almost bought the sport edition (in 2010 this would have been the equivalent to the F sport model as the options were almost identical in 2011 when the fsport debuted) but it lacked cooled seats, the rear sunshade and my ML sound system. And the driving experience was almost identical except for a smidge tighter suspension in the sport. So I went with the luxury model.

I have driven both the 3is fsport and non fsport (both 200t and 350) and can't tell a huge difference though I admit I haven't put either through their paces but in general were near identical to me.

So the fsport may be a success because it sold more but again from a performance standpoint it's negligible In my opinion (can we have those around here?) and when I buy a car it is for my needs.

zeusus

You think its a flop because it didn't serve your needs.

In the real world, the IS F Sport is a huge success with overwhelming number of customers opting for the package over base. The success of IS and GS F Sport justified execution of the package into the rest of the models we see today.

Perhaps your brother is just a better driver. :cool::fist:



In other news, the new renderings look good. Current IS still looks good even when put up with competitors of the same year. C class has the worst design in the segment.

Did I pee on your lawn bro? Lol damn...

And it was my brother in law...:p

My point was not about the IS350 Fsport being a flop in sales but in the performance arena (save the win in the C&D article "Habemas Papem"). Is the IS Fsport cars so much better than their non fsport counterparts? It is all marketing. The only option I like about the Fsport IS350 is the gimmicky gauge cluster and maybe the suspension. I own a 2010 IS350 Luxury edition. Almost bought the sport edition (in 2010 this would have been the equivalent to the F sport model as the options were almost identical in 2011 when the fsport debuted) but it lacked cooled seats, the rear sunshade and my ML sound system. And the driving experience was almost identical except for a smidge tighter suspension in the sport. So I went with the luxury model.

I have driven both the 3is fsport and non fsport (both 200t and 350) and can't tell a huge difference though I admit I haven't put either through their paces but in general were near identical to me.

So the fsport may be a success because it sold more but again from a performance standpoint it's negligible In my opinion (can we have those around here?) and when I buy a car it is for my needs.

If performance is your #1 priority, you'll be happier in a German car. It's just your mechanic will be happier you're in it too ;-)

If performance is your #1 priority, you'll be happier in a German car. It's just your mechanic will be happier you're in it too ;-)

Ian Schmidt

If performance is your #1 priority, you'll be happier in a German car. It's just your mechanic will be happier you're in it too ;-)

Performance is not my #1 priority but it is prob #1. 5 or #2.

That's my dilemma. My 2010 IS350 has been trouble free for 8 years and 88k miles and the performance is pretty good. I'm never selling this car BTW.

I was just hoping lexus followed it up with an upgraded model. I didn't feel the 3IS was enough of a leap over mine that's why I never bought one. Came close though. But yeah I don't do German cars (or any European) anymore because I don't want to put my mechanic's kids through college hahaha.

Ian Schmidt

If performance is your #1 priority, you'll be happier in a German car. It's just your mechanic will be happier you're in it too ;-)

Performance is not my #1 priority but it is prob #1. 5 or #2.

That's my dilemma. My 2010 IS350 has been trouble free for 8 years and 88k miles and the performance is pretty good. I'm never selling this car BTW.

I was just hoping lexus followed it up with an upgraded model. I didn't feel the 3IS was enough of a leap over mine that's why I never bought one. Came close though. But yeah I don't do German cars (or any European) anymore because I don't want to put my mechanic's kids through college hahaha.

joepac

Did I pee on your lawn bro? Lol damn...

And it was my brother in law...:p

My point was not about the IS350 Fsport being a flop in sales but in the performance arena (save the win in the C&D article "Habemas Papem"). Is the IS Fsport cars so much better than their non fsport counterparts? It is all marketing. The only option I like about the Fsport IS350 is the gimmicky gauge cluster and maybe the suspension. I own a 2010 IS350 Luxury edition. Almost bought the sport edition (in 2010 this would have been the equivalent to the F sport model as the options were almost identical in 2011 when the fsport debuted) but it lacked cooled seats, the rear sunshade and my ML sound system. And the driving experience was almost identical except for a smidge tighter suspension in the sport. So I went with the luxury model.

I have driven both the 3is fsport and non fsport (both 200t and 350) and can't tell a huge difference though I admit I haven't put either through their paces but in general were near identical to me.

So the fsport may be a success because it sold more but again from a performance standpoint it's negligible In my opinion (can we have those around here?) and when I buy a car it is for my needs.

Yours was spared of the carbon deposit build up? I think that's one reason I would not consider the 2IS and I guess because I also want ACC but even the 3IS only comes with high speed dynamic cruise control.

And these Lexus vehicles hold their value up in Canada that I would probably just wait for the 4IS and see whether it is worth getting instead of a used 3IS I can still buy extended warranty on.

Too bad the first electric vehicle will be the UX. I wish it was the IS, seeing how the Model 3 sales is doing quite well for now.

joepac

Did I pee on your lawn bro? Lol damn...

And it was my brother in law...:p

My point was not about the IS350 Fsport being a flop in sales but in the performance arena (save the win in the C&D article "Habemas Papem"). Is the IS Fsport cars so much better than their non fsport counterparts? It is all marketing. The only option I like about the Fsport IS350 is the gimmicky gauge cluster and maybe the suspension. I own a 2010 IS350 Luxury edition. Almost bought the sport edition (in 2010 this would have been the equivalent to the F sport model as the options were almost identical in 2011 when the fsport debuted) but it lacked cooled seats, the rear sunshade and my ML sound system. And the driving experience was almost identical except for a smidge tighter suspension in the sport. So I went with the luxury model.

I have driven both the 3is fsport and non fsport (both 200t and 350) and can't tell a huge difference though I admit I haven't put either through their paces but in general were near identical to me.

So the fsport may be a success because it sold more but again from a performance standpoint it's negligible In my opinion (can we have those around here?) and when I buy a car it is for my needs.

Yours was spared of the carbon deposit build up? I think that's one reason I would not consider the 2IS and I guess because I also want ACC but even the 3IS only comes with high speed dynamic cruise control.

And these Lexus vehicles hold their value up in Canada that I would probably just wait for the 4IS and see whether it is worth getting instead of a used 3IS I can still buy extended warranty on.

Too bad the first electric vehicle will be the UX. I wish it was the IS, seeing how the Model 3 sales is doing quite well for now.

internalaudit

Yours was spared of the carbon deposit build up? I think that's one reason I would not consider the 2IS and I guess because I also want ACC but even the 3IS only comes with high speed dynamic cruise control.

And these Lexus vehicles hold their value up in Canada that I would probably just wait for the 4IS and see whether it is worth getting instead of a used 3IS I can still buy extended warranty on.

Too bad the first electric vehicle will be the UX. I wish it was the IS, seeing how the Model 3 sales is doing quite well for now.

IIRC 350's didn't have the carbon deposit issue.

internalaudit

Yours was spared of the carbon deposit build up? I think that's one reason I would not consider the 2IS and I guess because I also want ACC but even the 3IS only comes with high speed dynamic cruise control.

And these Lexus vehicles hold their value up in Canada that I would probably just wait for the 4IS and see whether it is worth getting instead of a used 3IS I can still buy extended warranty on.

Too bad the first electric vehicle will be the UX. I wish it was the IS, seeing how the Model 3 sales is doing quite well for now.

IIRC 350's didn't have the carbon deposit issue.

joepac

So the fsport may be a success because it sold more but again from a performance standpoint it's negligible In my opinion (can we have those around here?) and when I buy a car it is for my needs.

You can't have an opinion because somebody challenged you? Boy if I had a penny for every time a counter opinion on the internet.


I think you have cleared this up pretty well on your own.

I have driven both the 3is fsport and non fsport (both 200t and 350) and can't tell a huge difference though I admit I haven't put either through their paces but in general were near identical to me.

The car that you say is a performance flop, which you didn't even test thoroughly enough to tell?

joepac

So the fsport may be a success because it sold more but again from a performance standpoint it's negligible In my opinion (can we have those around here?) and when I buy a car it is for my needs.

You can't have an opinion because somebody challenged you? Boy if I had a penny for every time a counter opinion on the internet.


I think you have cleared this up pretty well on your own.

I have driven both the 3is fsport and non fsport (both 200t and 350) and can't tell a huge difference though I admit I haven't put either through their paces but in general were near identical to me.

The car that you say is a performance flop, which you didn't even test thoroughly enough to tell?

zeusus

You can't have an opinion because somebody challenged you? Boy if I had a penny for every time a counter opinion on the internet.


I think you have cleared this up pretty well on your own.



The car that you say is a performance flop, which you didn't even test thoroughly enough to tell?

I meant I didn't take it on the track and take it to 9/10ths but I drove them enough to determine for me it was not enough of a step up from my 2IS... but whatever bro. We'll agree to disagree on the superiority of the 3IS fsport over the 2is...:thumbsup:

zeusus

You can't have an opinion because somebody challenged you? Boy if I had a penny for every time a counter opinion on the internet.


I think you have cleared this up pretty well on your own.



The car that you say is a performance flop, which you didn't even test thoroughly enough to tell?

I meant I didn't take it on the track and take it to 9/10ths but I drove them enough to determine for me it was not enough of a step up from my 2IS... but whatever bro. We'll agree to disagree on the superiority of the 3IS fsport over the 2is...:thumbsup:

joepac

I meant I didn't take it on the track and take it to 9/10ths but I drove them enough to determine for me it was not enough of a step up from my 2IS... but whatever bro. We'll agree to disagree on the superiority of the 3IS fsport over the 2is...:thumbsup:

In my opinion - the 3IS is a huge step up from the 2IS. While the 2IS had strong acceleration because of an aggressive gearing ratio and the competition at time was weak, it handled super poorly. The 2IS was a poor handling car. It had one of the numbest steering of any car at the time - there was just no feed back. However - the 3IS is the best handling car in its class today. Its better than the F30 3 Series by miles. It dethroned it in handling. We will just have to wait and see for the G20 3 Series.

joepac

I meant I didn't take it on the track and take it to 9/10ths but I drove them enough to determine for me it was not enough of a step up from my 2IS... but whatever bro. We'll agree to disagree on the superiority of the 3IS fsport over the 2is...:thumbsup:

In my opinion - the 3IS is a huge step up from the 2IS. While the 2IS had strong acceleration because of an aggressive gearing ratio and the competition at time was weak, it handled super poorly. The 2IS was a poor handling car. It had one of the numbest steering of any car at the time - there was just no feed back. However - the 3IS is the best handling car in its class today. Its better than the F30 3 Series by miles. It dethroned it in handling. We will just have to wait and see for the G20 3 Series.

spwolf

So you think that buyers dont compare prices of the cars but rather numbers of the back? So they compare 5k-10k more expensive 3 series to similar numbered 3IS?

Not sure about that...

IS will never be successful as 3/C/A4 because these guys have huge European/German market where they are fleet vehicles like Camry... amount of sales they do, which enables them to do many other things with it, is simply different to IS... Lexus has that with ES, RX and NX... and will likely never have it with IS.

That does not mean that IS cant be good competitor to C/3/A4... New 3 is nothing special at all. If Lexus released a vehicle with such all-plastic interior it would have been called a dead brand, instead you have same people who harp on Lexus for not having enough wood, love silver plastic in new 3. It is weird.

Most of the sales in this market happen on base models with base engines... Sure, Lexus needs to get smarter with PR and do IS500 F-Sport model so every journalist can test it and call it a great car... reality is that that engine, even if priced great vs similar BMW/C, will likely sell 5% of the IS sales.

Watching at Paris how BMW unveils their new 3 series, where every car is not only a top spec, but also with optional equipment and where maybe 1% of them will be like that in Europe, while at the same time Toyota shows new Rav4 mid-spec trips and Corolla with cloth seats... these are companies on completely different level of PR towards their customers.

People absolutely compare prices - did you forget how heavily BMW subsidizes their leases, and how Lexus lease rates are never as competitive - because they aren't subsidized? Same with MB. So Lexus cars often end up more expensive with less power/features/tech. Not a great combination for Lexus. Your view is more EU-specific while mine is more in the context of USA, but I am OK with IS being more expensive than BMW and Mercedes... but there has to be a good reason to pay more for a Lexus. IS has historically stood out with a strong, edgy design and the IS 350 was the benchmark for speed and reliability. People were willing to pay for that combination because it performed as well as 335i but could be driven for 200k miles with no problems. Now, across tech, power and features, IS is outperformed, outclassed and more expensive (to lease)... just a bad combination in this market/class.

Numbers aside, Lexus' delayed implementation of forced induction (and resistance to bringing IS 300h to US) has hurt them because regardless of the numbers, people generally respond to how a car feels behind the wheel. Whether you look at the spec sheet or not, BMW/Mercedes/Audi motors feel stronger because of turbos/torque and the fact that all of their power plants are more modern and sophisticated (and in BMW's case, underrated). 8AR-FTS is not nearly as strong or refined as BMW's or Audi's 2.0Ts.

At this point, 330i drives like an IS 350 and can be leased for cheaper than an IS 300, so, sales volume speaks for itself.

With all of this said, and turning an eye towards 4IS, I think Lexus has a huge opportunity with this car. If they cannot challenge 3er and C directly - and we have seen Lexus pivot in segments where they can't compete head-on - I think they can distinguish the next IS in the following ways:
- Design
- Hybrid technology
- Size

Looking at LS and LC, and knowing that IS has historically worn some of Lexus' most daring designs, I think there is an opportunity to design a car that looks decidedly more interesting and beautiful than C/3. Let's be honest, new 3 series design is not that interesting - it's an update on the same old formula, but handsome (IMO). Mercedes design language, while beautiful, is becoming very familiar. I am excited to see how Lexus styles this car because I think there is a big opportunity here.

USA has long been deprived of IS 300h, but I personally hope Lexus brings it for the next generation. If IS gets the same 2.5L hybrid system as ES and/or a new larger displacement hybrid, and/or multi-stage hybrid, I would love to see Lexus use hybrid tech as a differentiator in this class. Looking at sales of NXh, RXh and ESh, consumers like and want Lexus hybrids. German hybrid engines are weak and they lack the expertise Lexus has. There is a lot of opportunity to innovate and differentiate with a heavily hybrid IS lineup in terms of technology, efficiency and performance.

With GS going away, I have a feeling that IS will become more like Q50 with a "tweener" footprint that is between compact and midsize classes. I am assuming the car will come out roughly the size of the Camry with a usable back seat, more comfortable accommodations, good sized trunk, etc. With GS gone and making the car a little larger, this dramatically broadens the car's appeal and gives IS more room to breathe within the Lexus lineup.

spwolf

So you think that buyers dont compare prices of the cars but rather numbers of the back? So they compare 5k-10k more expensive 3 series to similar numbered 3IS?

Not sure about that...

IS will never be successful as 3/C/A4 because these guys have huge European/German market where they are fleet vehicles like Camry... amount of sales they do, which enables them to do many other things with it, is simply different to IS... Lexus has that with ES, RX and NX... and will likely never have it with IS.

That does not mean that IS cant be good competitor to C/3/A4... New 3 is nothing special at all. If Lexus released a vehicle with such all-plastic interior it would have been called a dead brand, instead you have same people who harp on Lexus for not having enough wood, love silver plastic in new 3. It is weird.

Most of the sales in this market happen on base models with base engines... Sure, Lexus needs to get smarter with PR and do IS500 F-Sport model so every journalist can test it and call it a great car... reality is that that engine, even if priced great vs similar BMW/C, will likely sell 5% of the IS sales.

Watching at Paris how BMW unveils their new 3 series, where every car is not only a top spec, but also with optional equipment and where maybe 1% of them will be like that in Europe, while at the same time Toyota shows new Rav4 mid-spec trips and Corolla with cloth seats... these are companies on completely different level of PR towards their customers.

People absolutely compare prices - did you forget how heavily BMW subsidizes their leases, and how Lexus lease rates are never as competitive - because they aren't subsidized? Same with MB. So Lexus cars often end up more expensive with less power/features/tech. Not a great combination for Lexus. Your view is more EU-specific while mine is more in the context of USA, but I am OK with IS being more expensive than BMW and Mercedes... but there has to be a good reason to pay more for a Lexus. IS has historically stood out with a strong, edgy design and the IS 350 was the benchmark for speed and reliability. People were willing to pay for that combination because it performed as well as 335i but could be driven for 200k miles with no problems. Now, across tech, power and features, IS is outperformed, outclassed and more expensive (to lease)... just a bad combination in this market/class.

Numbers aside, Lexus' delayed implementation of forced induction (and resistance to bringing IS 300h to US) has hurt them because regardless of the numbers, people generally respond to how a car feels behind the wheel. Whether you look at the spec sheet or not, BMW/Mercedes/Audi motors feel stronger because of turbos/torque and the fact that all of their power plants are more modern and sophisticated (and in BMW's case, underrated). 8AR-FTS is not nearly as strong or refined as BMW's or Audi's 2.0Ts.

At this point, 330i drives like an IS 350 and can be leased for cheaper than an IS 300, so, sales volume speaks for itself.

With all of this said, and turning an eye towards 4IS, I think Lexus has a huge opportunity with this car. If they cannot challenge 3er and C directly - and we have seen Lexus pivot in segments where they can't compete head-on - I think they can distinguish the next IS in the following ways:
- Design
- Hybrid technology
- Size

Looking at LS and LC, and knowing that IS has historically worn some of Lexus' most daring designs, I think there is an opportunity to design a car that looks decidedly more interesting and beautiful than C/3. Let's be honest, new 3 series design is not that interesting - it's an update on the same old formula, but handsome (IMO). Mercedes design language, while beautiful, is becoming very familiar. I am excited to see how Lexus styles this car because I think there is a big opportunity here.

USA has long been deprived of IS 300h, but I personally hope Lexus brings it for the next generation. If IS gets the same 2.5L hybrid system as ES and/or a new larger displacement hybrid, and/or multi-stage hybrid, I would love to see Lexus use hybrid tech as a differentiator in this class. Looking at sales of NXh, RXh and ESh, consumers like and want Lexus hybrids. German hybrid engines are weak and they lack the expertise Lexus has. There is a lot of opportunity to innovate and differentiate with a heavily hybrid IS lineup in terms of technology, efficiency and performance.

With GS going away, I have a feeling that IS will become more like Q50 with a "tweener" footprint that is between compact and midsize classes. I am assuming the car will come out roughly the size of the Camry with a usable back seat, more comfortable accommodations, good sized trunk, etc. With GS gone and making the car a little larger, this dramatically broadens the car's appeal and gives IS more room to breathe within the Lexus lineup.

joepac

IIRC 350's didn't have the carbon deposit issue.

Correct. The carbon buildup is an issue with the direct injection-only 4GR-FSE 2.5-liter V6 in the IS 250. The addition of dual D-4S direct + port injection in the 3.5-liter 2GR-FSE V6 in the IS 350 alleviates this issue.

joepac

IIRC 350's didn't have the carbon deposit issue.

Correct. The carbon buildup is an issue with the direct injection-only 4GR-FSE 2.5-liter V6 in the IS 250. The addition of dual D-4S direct + port injection in the 3.5-liter 2GR-FSE V6 in the IS 350 alleviates this issue.

Gecko

People absolutely compare prices - did you forget how heavily BMW subsidizes their leases, and how Lexus lease rates are never as competitive - because they aren't subsidized? Same with MB. So Lexus cars often end up more expensive with less power/features/tech. Not a great combination for Lexus. Your view is more EU-specific while mine is more in the context of USA, but I am OK with IS being more expensive than BMW and Mercedes... but there has to be a good reason to pay more for a Lexus. IS has historically stood out with a strong, edgy design and the IS 350 was the benchmark for speed and reliability. People were willing to pay for that combination because it performed as well as 335i but could be driven for 200k miles with no problems. Now, across tech, power and features, IS is outperformed, outclassed and more expensive (to lease)... just a bad combination in this market/class.

Numbers aside, Lexus' delayed implementation of forced induction (and resistance to bringing IS 300h to US) has hurt them because regardless of the numbers, people generally respond to how a car feels behind the wheel. Whether you look at the spec sheet or not, BMW/Mercedes/Audi motors feel stronger because of turbos/torque and the fact that all of their power plants are more modern and sophisticated (and in BMW's case, underrated). 8AR-FTS is not nearly as strong or refined as BMW's or Audi's 2.0Ts.

At this point, 330i drives like an IS 350 and can be leased for cheaper than an IS 300, so, sales volume speaks for itself.

With all of this said, and turning an eye towards 4IS, I think Lexus has a huge opportunity with this car. If they cannot challenge 3er and C directly - and we have seen Lexus pivot in segments where they can't compete head-on - I think they can distinguish the next IS in the following ways:
- Design
- Hybrid technology
- Size

Looking at LS and LC, and knowing that IS has historically worn some of Lexus' most daring designs, I think there is an opportunity to design a car that looks decidedly more interesting and beautiful than C/3. Let's be honest, new 3 series design is not that interesting - it's an update on the same old formula, but handsome (IMO). Mercedes design language, while beautiful, is becoming very familiar. I am excited to see how Lexus styles this car because I think there is a big opportunity here.

USA has long been deprived of IS 300h, but I personally hope Lexus brings it for the next generation. If IS gets the same 2.5L hybrid system as ES and/or a new larger displacement hybrid, and/or multi-stage hybrid, I would love to see Lexus use hybrid tech as a differentiator in this class. Looking at sales of NXh, RXh and ESh, consumers like and want Lexus hybrids. German hybrid engines are weak and they lack the expertise Lexus has. There is a lot of opportunity to innovate and differentiate with a heavily hybrid IS lineup in terms of technology, efficiency and performance.

With GS going away, I have a feeling that IS will become more like Q50 with a "tweener" footprint that is between compact and midsize classes. I am assuming the car will come out roughly the size of the Camry with a usable back seat, more comfortable accommodations, good sized trunk, etc. With GS gone and making the car a little larger, this dramatically broadens the car's appeal and gives IS more room to breathe within the Lexus lineup.

I agree with you. I think that the size of the 4IS will be dramatically larger but not as large as the GS. Something in the middle. Which is (IMHO) a shame really. I would have loved something the size of the current IS. Parking spots are not getting any larger but people are getting fatter and clumsier. That only means one thing really...more door marks!

Gecko

People absolutely compare prices - did you forget how heavily BMW subsidizes their leases, and how Lexus lease rates are never as competitive - because they aren't subsidized? Same with MB. So Lexus cars often end up more expensive with less power/features/tech. Not a great combination for Lexus. Your view is more EU-specific while mine is more in the context of USA, but I am OK with IS being more expensive than BMW and Mercedes... but there has to be a good reason to pay more for a Lexus. IS has historically stood out with a strong, edgy design and the IS 350 was the benchmark for speed and reliability. People were willing to pay for that combination because it performed as well as 335i but could be driven for 200k miles with no problems. Now, across tech, power and features, IS is outperformed, outclassed and more expensive (to lease)... just a bad combination in this market/class.

Numbers aside, Lexus' delayed implementation of forced induction (and resistance to bringing IS 300h to US) has hurt them because regardless of the numbers, people generally respond to how a car feels behind the wheel. Whether you look at the spec sheet or not, BMW/Mercedes/Audi motors feel stronger because of turbos/torque and the fact that all of their power plants are more modern and sophisticated (and in BMW's case, underrated). 8AR-FTS is not nearly as strong or refined as BMW's or Audi's 2.0Ts.

At this point, 330i drives like an IS 350 and can be leased for cheaper than an IS 300, so, sales volume speaks for itself.

With all of this said, and turning an eye towards 4IS, I think Lexus has a huge opportunity with this car. If they cannot challenge 3er and C directly - and we have seen Lexus pivot in segments where they can't compete head-on - I think they can distinguish the next IS in the following ways:
- Design
- Hybrid technology
- Size

Looking at LS and LC, and knowing that IS has historically worn some of Lexus' most daring designs, I think there is an opportunity to design a car that looks decidedly more interesting and beautiful than C/3. Let's be honest, new 3 series design is not that interesting - it's an update on the same old formula, but handsome (IMO). Mercedes design language, while beautiful, is becoming very familiar. I am excited to see how Lexus styles this car because I think there is a big opportunity here.

USA has long been deprived of IS 300h, but I personally hope Lexus brings it for the next generation. If IS gets the same 2.5L hybrid system as ES and/or a new larger displacement hybrid, and/or multi-stage hybrid, I would love to see Lexus use hybrid tech as a differentiator in this class. Looking at sales of NXh, RXh and ESh, consumers like and want Lexus hybrids. German hybrid engines are weak and they lack the expertise Lexus has. There is a lot of opportunity to innovate and differentiate with a heavily hybrid IS lineup in terms of technology, efficiency and performance.

With GS going away, I have a feeling that IS will become more like Q50 with a "tweener" footprint that is between compact and midsize classes. I am assuming the car will come out roughly the size of the Camry with a usable back seat, more comfortable accommodations, good sized trunk, etc. With GS gone and making the car a little larger, this dramatically broadens the car's appeal and gives IS more room to breathe within the Lexus lineup.

I agree with you. I think that the size of the 4IS will be dramatically larger but not as large as the GS. Something in the middle. Which is (IMHO) a shame really. I would have loved something the size of the current IS. Parking spots are not getting any larger but people are getting fatter and clumsier. That only means one thing really...more door marks!

Gecko

People absolutely compare prices - did you forget how heavily BMW subsidizes their leases, and how Lexus lease rates are never as competitive - because they aren't subsidized? Same with MB. So Lexus cars often end up more expensive with less power/features/tech. Not a great combination for Lexus. Your view is more EU-specific while mine is more in the context of USA, but I am OK with IS being more expensive than BMW and Mercedes... but there has to be a good reason to pay more for a Lexus. IS has historically stood out with a strong, edgy design and the IS 350 was the benchmark for speed and reliability. People were willing to pay for that combination because it performed as well as 335i but could be driven for 200k miles with no problems. Now, across tech, power and features, IS is outperformed, outclassed and more expensive (to lease)... just a bad combination in this market/class.

Numbers aside, Lexus' delayed implementation of forced induction (and resistance to bringing IS 300h to US) has hurt them because regardless of the numbers, people generally respond to how a car feels behind the wheel. Whether you look at the spec sheet or not, BMW/Mercedes/Audi motors feel stronger because of turbos/torque and the fact that all of their power plants are more modern and sophisticated (and in BMW's case, underrated). 8AR-FTS is not nearly as strong or refined as BMW's or Audi's 2.0Ts.

At this point, 330i drives like an IS 350 and can be leased for cheaper than an IS 300, so, sales volume speaks for itself.

With all of this said, and turning an eye towards 4IS, I think Lexus has a huge opportunity with this car. If they cannot challenge 3er and C directly - and we have seen Lexus pivot in segments where they can't compete head-on - I think they can distinguish the next IS in the following ways:
- Design
- Hybrid technology
- Size

Looking at LS and LC, and knowing that IS has historically worn some of Lexus' most daring designs, I think there is an opportunity to design a car that looks decidedly more interesting and beautiful than C/3. Let's be honest, new 3 series design is not that interesting - it's an update on the same old formula, but handsome (IMO). Mercedes design language, while beautiful, is becoming very familiar. I am excited to see how Lexus styles this car because I think there is a big opportunity here.

USA has long been deprived of IS 300h, but I personally hope Lexus brings it for the next generation. If IS gets the same 2.5L hybrid system as ES and/or a new larger displacement hybrid, and/or multi-stage hybrid, I would love to see Lexus use hybrid tech as a differentiator in this class. Looking at sales of NXh, RXh and ESh, consumers like and want Lexus hybrids. German hybrid engines are weak and they lack the expertise Lexus has. There is a lot of opportunity to innovate and differentiate with a heavily hybrid IS lineup in terms of technology, efficiency and performance.

With GS going away, I have a feeling that IS will become more like Q50 with a "tweener" footprint that is between compact and midsize classes. I am assuming the car will come out roughly the size of the Camry with a usable back seat, more comfortable accommodations, good sized trunk, etc. With GS gone and making the car a little larger, this dramatically broadens the car's appeal and gives IS more room to breathe within the Lexus lineup.

While I agree with majority of the context of what you said, I want to highlight some things.
A BMW can definitely be leased cheaper than a Lexus IS. But that begs the question - how optioned out is that BMW? At the end of the day - the cheapest leased BMW is the BMW with the least options. And when you compare a car to its competition - we are talking about relation between price, features, and performance.

Lets take a look at the Lexus IS for example. If you compare the Lexus IS300 to the BMW 320i, the BMW 320i. Both cars, with literally everything on it, will cost roughly between 46K-47K Sticker.
This is why I think it makes sense for the Lexus IS300 competes with the BMW 320i. The sticker price, performance level, and the amount of tech you get it similar, very similar.

Similarity - the Lexus IS350 competes with the BMW 330i. With the BMW 330i equipped to similar features of the Lexus IS350, we are looking at that Lexus IS350 costing 50K with the 330i pushing close to 58K.
Despite lease deal - the Lexus IS will still be cheaper in this option.

I get what you are saying. You are saying that if the Lexus IS300 had similar specs to the 330i and the Lexus IS350 was the M340i competitor, sales will boom/increase. I disagree with you here. If you look at the Lexus IS250/IS350 sales back in 2006, it nearly matches the same sale numbers of the 2014 Lexus IS250/350. What I'm saying is - 8 years later - with the same engine - the car sold almost the same.

True. People respond to how a car drives behind the wheel. Those people are car enthusiasts or people that relatively care about cars to a point. What about for the mass demographic of people? The elder generation? The younger millennial that don't really care as long they have access to a car? Chances are they might not care. The Lexus demographic doesn't care about the performance. Majority of Lexus IS owners are Lexus IS250 and IS300 owners. But this is also why I agree that the IS300h needs to be introduced. It'll sell well in the USA.

While the 330i is similar to the IS350 because they are in the same competition, its not true you can lease a 330i for cheaper than a Lexus IS300. If you want a 330i with options that are similar to the IS, you won't be able to lease cheaper. If you are talking about a shell and option-less 330i, then yes it can be cheaper. But if the BMW 330i is option less, how is it a competitor to the Lexus IS?

Again - BMW/MB sales, in the terms of the 3 Series and C-Class, no one will ever beat. If we are talking about the context of the USA, 3 Series and C-Class are fleet cars here in the USA too. They are sold to rental car agencies and a lot of private businesses use them as fleet cars. Ever wonder why the Audi A4 sales never matched their German rivals? Because A4 is not sold in the USA as a fleet car. Similarity - the IS isn't either.

I agree with you here. Toyota has a big big chance to wow with the 4G Lexus IS. Japanese brands are good at generational designs. German brands tend to play extremely conservative in this department. Their designs are more like refreshes, rather than overhauls. The G20 BMW looks pretty much the same as the F30 BMW.

I think the Lexus IS will increase in size but I don't think it'll be the size of the Camry, like you are putting it. I believe the Lexus IS will increase in size only slightly while they are using the Lexus ES as the void filler for the GS. Someone said before, I don't know where on Lexus Enthusiasts, that the IS/ES is like a combo sale. Like they are brother/sisters. They both start at the roughly the same price, however, one is smaller with a more "sporty" driving experience and one is bigger with a more space and comfortable experience.

Gecko

People absolutely compare prices - did you forget how heavily BMW subsidizes their leases, and how Lexus lease rates are never as competitive - because they aren't subsidized? Same with MB. So Lexus cars often end up more expensive with less power/features/tech. Not a great combination for Lexus. Your view is more EU-specific while mine is more in the context of USA, but I am OK with IS being more expensive than BMW and Mercedes... but there has to be a good reason to pay more for a Lexus. IS has historically stood out with a strong, edgy design and the IS 350 was the benchmark for speed and reliability. People were willing to pay for that combination because it performed as well as 335i but could be driven for 200k miles with no problems. Now, across tech, power and features, IS is outperformed, outclassed and more expensive (to lease)... just a bad combination in this market/class.

Numbers aside, Lexus' delayed implementation of forced induction (and resistance to bringing IS 300h to US) has hurt them because regardless of the numbers, people generally respond to how a car feels behind the wheel. Whether you look at the spec sheet or not, BMW/Mercedes/Audi motors feel stronger because of turbos/torque and the fact that all of their power plants are more modern and sophisticated (and in BMW's case, underrated). 8AR-FTS is not nearly as strong or refined as BMW's or Audi's 2.0Ts.

At this point, 330i drives like an IS 350 and can be leased for cheaper than an IS 300, so, sales volume speaks for itself.

With all of this said, and turning an eye towards 4IS, I think Lexus has a huge opportunity with this car. If they cannot challenge 3er and C directly - and we have seen Lexus pivot in segments where they can't compete head-on - I think they can distinguish the next IS in the following ways:
- Design
- Hybrid technology
- Size

Looking at LS and LC, and knowing that IS has historically worn some of Lexus' most daring designs, I think there is an opportunity to design a car that looks decidedly more interesting and beautiful than C/3. Let's be honest, new 3 series design is not that interesting - it's an update on the same old formula, but handsome (IMO). Mercedes design language, while beautiful, is becoming very familiar. I am excited to see how Lexus styles this car because I think there is a big opportunity here.

USA has long been deprived of IS 300h, but I personally hope Lexus brings it for the next generation. If IS gets the same 2.5L hybrid system as ES and/or a new larger displacement hybrid, and/or multi-stage hybrid, I would love to see Lexus use hybrid tech as a differentiator in this class. Looking at sales of NXh, RXh and ESh, consumers like and want Lexus hybrids. German hybrid engines are weak and they lack the expertise Lexus has. There is a lot of opportunity to innovate and differentiate with a heavily hybrid IS lineup in terms of technology, efficiency and performance.

With GS going away, I have a feeling that IS will become more like Q50 with a "tweener" footprint that is between compact and midsize classes. I am assuming the car will come out roughly the size of the Camry with a usable back seat, more comfortable accommodations, good sized trunk, etc. With GS gone and making the car a little larger, this dramatically broadens the car's appeal and gives IS more room to breathe within the Lexus lineup.

While I agree with majority of the context of what you said, I want to highlight some things.
A BMW can definitely be leased cheaper than a Lexus IS. But that begs the question - how optioned out is that BMW? At the end of the day - the cheapest leased BMW is the BMW with the least options. And when you compare a car to its competition - we are talking about relation between price, features, and performance.

Lets take a look at the Lexus IS for example. If you compare the Lexus IS300 to the BMW 320i, the BMW 320i. Both cars, with literally everything on it, will cost roughly between 46K-47K Sticker.
This is why I think it makes sense for the Lexus IS300 competes with the BMW 320i. The sticker price, performance level, and the amount of tech you get it similar, very similar.

Similarity - the Lexus IS350 competes with the BMW 330i. With the BMW 330i equipped to similar features of the Lexus IS350, we are looking at that Lexus IS350 costing 50K with the 330i pushing close to 58K.
Despite lease deal - the Lexus IS will still be cheaper in this option.

I get what you are saying. You are saying that if the Lexus IS300 had similar specs to the 330i and the Lexus IS350 was the M340i competitor, sales will boom/increase. I disagree with you here. If you look at the Lexus IS250/IS350 sales back in 2006, it nearly matches the same sale numbers of the 2014 Lexus IS250/350. What I'm saying is - 8 years later - with the same engine - the car sold almost the same.

True. People respond to how a car drives behind the wheel. Those people are car enthusiasts or people that relatively care about cars to a point. What about for the mass demographic of people? The elder generation? The younger millennial that don't really care as long they have access to a car? Chances are they might not care. The Lexus demographic doesn't care about the performance. Majority of Lexus IS owners are Lexus IS250 and IS300 owners. But this is also why I agree that the IS300h needs to be introduced. It'll sell well in the USA.

While the 330i is similar to the IS350 because they are in the same competition, its not true you can lease a 330i for cheaper than a Lexus IS300. If you want a 330i with options that are similar to the IS, you won't be able to lease cheaper. If you are talking about a shell and option-less 330i, then yes it can be cheaper. But if the BMW 330i is option less, how is it a competitor to the Lexus IS?

Again - BMW/MB sales, in the terms of the 3 Series and C-Class, no one will ever beat. If we are talking about the context of the USA, 3 Series and C-Class are fleet cars here in the USA too. They are sold to rental car agencies and a lot of private businesses use them as fleet cars. Ever wonder why the Audi A4 sales never matched their German rivals? Because A4 is not sold in the USA as a fleet car. Similarity - the IS isn't either.

I agree with you here. Toyota has a big big chance to wow with the 4G Lexus IS. Japanese brands are good at generational designs. German brands tend to play extremely conservative in this department. Their designs are more like refreshes, rather than overhauls. The G20 BMW looks pretty much the same as the F30 BMW.

I think the Lexus IS will increase in size but I don't think it'll be the size of the Camry, like you are putting it. I believe the Lexus IS will increase in size only slightly while they are using the Lexus ES as the void filler for the GS. Someone said before, I don't know where on Lexus Enthusiasts, that the IS/ES is like a combo sale. Like they are brother/sisters. They both start at the roughly the same price, however, one is smaller with a more "sporty" driving experience and one is bigger with a more space and comfortable experience.

just make IS the size of the 4GS since the ES is already as spacious as the LS. if they can do that with a lot of variation to satisfy current IS owners and also capture the GS customers then they will be good. The marketing team should do the same with the advert.

just make IS the size of the 4GS since the ES is already as spacious as the LS. if they can do that with a lot of variation to satisfy current IS owners and also capture the GS customers then they will be good. The marketing team should do the same with the advert.

Only issue is the lack of toss-ability on bigger vehicles.

Not even sure what that means except for much better maneuvering on runabouts on my 02 Civic 5MT versus 11 Accord coupe 5AT with the former's suspension already not in the best condition.

Only issue is the lack of toss-ability on bigger vehicles.

Not even sure what that means except for much better maneuvering on runabouts on my 02 Civic 5MT versus 11 Accord coupe 5AT with the former's suspension already not in the best condition.

internalaudit

Only issue is the lack of toss-ability on bigger vehicles.

Not even sure what that means except for much better maneuvering on runabouts on my 02 Civic 5MT versus 11 Accord coupe 5AT with the former's suspension already not in the best condition.

I definitely feel this on my smaller and lighter 2IS vs the 3IS, which I've sampled on a number of occasions.

internalaudit

Only issue is the lack of toss-ability on bigger vehicles.

Not even sure what that means except for much better maneuvering on runabouts on my 02 Civic 5MT versus 11 Accord coupe 5AT with the former's suspension already not in the best condition.

I definitely feel this on my smaller and lighter 2IS vs the 3IS, which I've sampled on a number of occasions.