Lexus Remains Uncommitted to Plug-In Hybrid Technology

Most of Toyota's recent MPG gains can be attributed to the part time Atkinson cycle operation.

Would a turbocharged Atkinson cycle be considered Miller cycle when on boost? I recall Mazda having a supercharged Miller V6 back in the 90s.

TheNerdyPotato

Most of Toyota's recent MPG gains can be attributed to the part time Atkinson cycle operation.

Would a turbocharged Atkinson cycle be considered Miller cycle when on boost? I recall Mazda having a supercharged Miller V6 back in the 90s.

Technically yes.

carguy420

So what's the future for Toyota? Downsized turbo engines or no replacement for displacement?

A mix of both. Lexus will get more downsizing. There will always be a segment that doesn't need turbo.

TheNerdyPotato

Would a turbocharged Atkinson cycle be considered Miller cycle when on boost? I recall Mazda having a supercharged Miller V6 back in the 90s.

No. On the 8AR-FTS Atkinson cycle and turbocharging are two separate regions on the engine map. The engine only runs in Atkinson cycle when off boost. So far no Miller cycle engine operates permanently in Atkinson mode, it will always run Otto Cycle when load is high.

ssun30

A mix of both. Lexus will get more downsizing. There will always be a segment that doesn't need turbo.



No. On the 8AR-FTS Atkinson cycle and turbocharging are two separate regions on the engine map. The engine only runs in Atkinson cycle when off boost. So far no Miller cycle engine operates permanently in Atkinson mode, it will always run Otto Cycle when load is high.

Wait a minute, can the Mazda Miller cycle engine switch back to Otto cycle?

ssun30

I would back off from discussion for now and see if I can get to share these articles I mentioned earlier.

It seems as though you may actually be right, and I may be wrong regarding downsizing at Toyota.

https://www.mag-x.com/shop/products/detail.php?product_id=109

The latest issue of Mag X claims that Toyota has a newly developed 2.4L cylinder turbo engine. I can't discern any other details as I don't speak Japanese. I can only assume this would be replacing the 8AR-FTS.

I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

Despite no previously clear evidence, we now have evidence of downsizing in the TNGA era (besides the V35A). While I had viewed the V35A as an exception, it looks like this is not the case if this 2.4L turbo engine turns out to be true. The key question is, will this supposed 2.4L turbo replace the GR V6 in all markets, some markets, or not at all? In the best-case scenario personally speaking, I feel this engine may replace all current applications of the 8AR-FTS and no more than that. As I am personally against downsizing, I can only hope for the best-case scenario that downsizing overall will be market-selective and model selective. I have hope for this as Toyota's master TNGA powertrain diagram does show 2 mystery engines above the V35A, but also plenty of engines below the V35A. I simply cannot imagine Toyota going to 100% downsizing, as we already have the M20A and A25A which are not downsized. If hypothetically all other yet-to-be-revealed TNGA engines were downsized turbo engines, I would seriously reconsider being a Toyota fan. I have great confidence though that this won't happen. Toyota knows that some world markets (and also specific market segments) hate downsized turbo engines. Toyota themselves also know for superior combustion, superior driveability and the best thermal efficiency, higher displacement is often preferable.

On another note, looking at it now Toyota's TNGA powertrain diagram has the engines most certainly ordered by displacement, regardless of forced induction or not. Just like the THS systems are going by ascending order clockwise, as well as the transmissions. Therefore I believe this apparent new 2.4L turbo will slot in the diagram between the A25A and the M20A. That means that a mystery engine still remains on the diagram between the V35A and the A25A. I would imagine that engine will be the new global workhorse V6 engine. The other question is, will this 2.4L turbo engine be based on the A25A or the M20A? Surely it cannot be yet another new engine code, as that is not the TNGA way.

I am personally most excited by the engines above the V35A. My final guess is that one of the engines is the rumored 4.0L TT V8, and the other engine is a big displacement replacement for the 3UR engine. The engine between the A25A and V35A is also exciting.

CIF

It seems as though you may actually be right, and I may be wrong regarding downsizing at Toyota.

https://www.mag-x.com/shop/products/detail.php?product_id=109

The latest issue of Mag X claims that Toyota has a newly developed 2.4L cylinder turbo engine. I can't discern any other details as I don't speak Japanese. I can only assume this would be replacing the 8AR-FTS.

I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

Despite no previously clear evidence, we now have evidence of downsizing in the TNGA era (besides the V35A). While I had viewed the V35A as an exception, it looks like this is not the case if this 2.4L turbo engine turns out to be true. The key question is, will this supposed 2.4L turbo replace the GR V6 in all markets, some markets, or not at all? In the best-case scenario personally speaking, I feel this engine may replace all current applications of the 8AR-FTS and no more than that. As I am personally against downsizing, I can only hope for the best-case scenario that downsizing overall will be market-selective and model selective. I have hope for this as Toyota's master TNGA powertrain diagram does show 2 mystery engines above the V35A, but also plenty of engines below the V35A. I simply cannot imagine Toyota going to 100% downsizing, as we already have the M20A and A25A which are not downsized. If hypothetically all other yet-to-be-revealed TNGA engines were downsized turbo engines, I would seriously reconsider being a Toyota fan. I have great confidence though that this won't happen. Toyota knows that some world markets (and also specific market segments) hate downsized turbo engines. Toyota themselves also know for superior combustion, superior driveability and the best thermal efficiency, higher displacement is often preferable.

On another note, looking at it now Toyota's TNGA powertrain diagram has the engines most certainly ordered by displacement, regardless of forced induction or not. Just like the THS systems are going by ascending order clockwise, as well as the transmissions. Therefore I believe this apparent new 2.4L turbo will slot in the diagram between the A25A and the M20A. That means that a mystery engine still remains on the diagram between the V35A and the A25A. I would imagine that engine will be the new global workhorse V6 engine. The other question is, will this 2.4L turbo engine be based on the A25A or the M20A? Surely it cannot be yet another new engine code, as that is not the TNGA way.

I am personally most excited by the engines above the V35A. My final guess is that one of the engines is the rumored 4.0L TT V8, and the other engine is a big displacement replacement for the 3UR engine. The engine between the A25A and V35A is also exciting.

This might be the 2.4l v6 engine in the TS050 hybrid race car. The 2.4L v6 twin turbo by itself is pushing 368kw/500ps. so if detuned to 260kw as the work horse of TMC, I dont think it is stressed.

But the 2.4l V6 in the Toyota race car is a 90° V6, and Toyota never made 90° V6 engines in production cars. They always went for 60° angle.

Also, what about the engine above the 1GD (2.8 I4 Diesel) that replaces the 1KD (3.0 I4 Diesel)? What is going to replace the 1VD (4.5 V8 Diesel)? The Land Cruiser always had a bigger diesel than the Prado.

Levi

But the 2.4l V6 in the Toyota race car is a 90° V6, and Toyota never made 90° V6 engines in production cars. They always went for 60° angle.

Also, what about the engine above the 1GD (2.8 I4 Diesel) that replaces the 1KD (3.0 I4 Diesel)? What is going to replace the 1VD (4.5 V8 Diesel)? The Land Cruiser always had a bigger diesel than the Prado.

That is currently a huge question. I don't know if this TNGA diagram will even include any diesels. What we do know is that Toyota publicly stated months ago that they will cease all new development of passenger car diesel engines. As to what that means for any possible future truck or SUV diesel engines, Toyota didn't say. Commercial diesels will obviously continue through Hino.

CIF

That is currently a huge question. I don't know if this TNGA diagram will even include any diesels. What we do know is that Toyota publicly stated months ago that they will cease all new development of passenger car diesel engines. As to what that means for any possible future truck or SUV diesel engines, Toyota didn't say. Commercial diesels will obviously continue through Hino.

If BEVs or HFCEVs were a viable alternative, yes the Land Cruiser could be without diesel, but for the forseable future, it is not possible to have a Land Cruiser without diesel. Because the 1VD is EURO 4 compliant engine, sales were suspended in Western Europe. An updated new car, with a new diesel is very likely to have some sales. Land Cruiser buyers do no crossshop, unless they have no choice. My former boss that changed his LC200 quite regularly, now has his since quite some years with already a high mileage. He is not ready to change. He also has an LC40.

Levi

If BEVs or HFCEVs were a viable alternative, yes the Land Cruiser could be without diesel, but for the forseable future, it is not possible to have a Land Cruiser without diesel. Because the 1VD is EURO 4 compliant engine, sales were suspended in Western Europe. An updated new car, with a new diesel is very likely to have some sales. Land Cruiser buyers do no crossshop, unless they have no choice. My former boss that changed his LC200 quite regularly, now has his since quite some years with already a high mileage. He is not ready to change. He also has an LC40.

I agree with what you're saying, but we have no idea if this diagram includes diesel engines. We know for example the diagram does not include any pure EV or FCEV powertrains. For all we know Toyota may come out with a separate diesel or alternative powertrain diagram. Or, this diagram will in fact include diesel engines, and that would mean less gas engines than expected. We shall see I guess in the coming years.

Another aspect to consider is meeting current and future emissions targets is a key aspect of the TNGA Dynamic Force engines. Will Toyota be able to release a new non-commercial diesel engine design that meets current and future worldwide emissions standards? Hard to say.

Toyota planned to source diesel engines from BMW and they actually do use the WW which is a BMW design. But after the emissions scandal they might have second thoughts now about sourcing german diesels.
For smaller vehicles they could always source Skyactiv-D from Mazda. But the VD replacement is the tricky one. What the Land Cruiser needs is a large, understressed, low power density diesel, unlike the high power density 'modern' diesels everyone is making. The PowerStroke and DuraMax obviously won't work in Europe so Toyota can't really source from Ford or GM.
Actually, is there really a need for new diesel Land Cruiser? The V35A could increase the appeal of the gasoline LC in Europe. Everywhere else the good old VDs just work.

2 x 2AD = 1VD

That is how it was made. Without passenger diesels anymore, there is nothing that can be sahred, except the commercial 1GD. Suppose that engine is strong enough to be lengthened to an I6, it would result in a 4.2l I6 making about 270 PS and 630 Nm, slightly less than that 1VD.

What is the LC300 going to target? Luxury SUVs or Heavy Duty SUVs? Toyota Gibraltar sells mostly base spec Toyotas for NGOs and GOs in developing countries. Would a V35A-FXS be a viable single choice alternative?

I know it is slightly off-topic to discuss about the LC, but from a powertrain view, overall there is nothing 'special' so to say, I mean we know TMC makes good powertrains for their purpose (commuting). Where to overall interest is on this forum, voiced by our vocal member @Rhambler, is V35A applications and above. The 1VD sells very much worldwide and cannot be neglected from a business perspective. The LC200 on its 12 years life-cycle, so will the 1VD, including its 6 speed auto and 5 speed manual, which are very outdated. There is little doubt the Tundra/Sequoia/LX/LC will get a turbocharged V6. But in countries such as Central and Eastern Europe, where Lexus even sells an LX 450d, it just is not possible there will be no new big diesel.

Could TMC source Cummins' 2.8l I4 and 5.0l V8? That is what the Titan has, and the Frontier has as concept. The Nissan Armada/Infiniti QX80 faces the same situation.

Levi

What is the LC300 going to target? Luxury SUVs or Heavy Duty SUVs? Toyota Gibraltar sells mostly base spec Toyotas for NGOs and GOs in developing countries. Would a V35A-FXS be a viable single choice alternative?

For developing countries they will use the 1GR-FE. They need an old and reliable engine for these markets where parts supply is abundant and serviceability is more important than efficiency or emissions. The 1GR has already replaced the FZ Inline-6 on the LC70. It is their new workhorse engine along with the 1VD. The old 1FZ petrol and 1HZ diesel have been in service for over 20 years now, I expect the same for the 1GR and 1VD.

My overall point is that the LC300 could carry over the 1GR and 1VD for developing countries. And the V35A-FTS plus whatever V8 they are planning for the rest of the world. Unless they could not improve the 1VD to pass emissions I don't see a true need for a new diesel engine. And if there is a new one they will source from others.

Another possibility is the LC300 going all 'civilized' and stop caring about compatibility with developing regions, i.e. going in the Range Rover's direction (which is something they should have done ten years ago). The need to both be a troop transport and a luxury cruiser is what made the LC200 unnecessarily over-engineered. The LC150 Prado could be modified into the successor to the LC70 (replacing IFS with solid axle) and keep fulfilling the demand of armed forces and NGOs in developing regions.

P.S. For next year's Dakar Rally Toyota South Africa will replace the 2UR with a 3.5 turbo. While we don't know what this engine actually is, there is a high possibility of it being the V35A. This should be a hint that the V35A will be certified for operations in utility vehicles.

ssun30

For developing countries they will use the 1GR-FE. They need an old and reliable engine for these markets where parts supply is abundant and serviceability is more important than efficiency or emissions. The 1GR has already replaced the FZ Inline-6 on the LC70. It is their new workhorse engine along with the 1VD. The old 1FZ petrol and 1HZ diesel have been in service for over 20 years now, I expect the same for the 1GR and 1VD.

My overall point is that the LC300 could carry over the 1GR and 1VD for developing countries. And the V35A-FTS plus whatever V8 they are planning for the rest of the world. Unless they could not improve the 1VD to pass emissions I don't see a true need for a new diesel engine. And if there is a new one they will source from others.

Sourcing a competitor's diesel for the Land Cruiser would be heresy. Many Land Cruiser owners would hate that. I'm sure Toyota is smarter than that and is aware of how sensitive Land Cruiser owners are with regards to quality, durability, reliability. Land Cruiser owners value everything being in-house developed.

Then again, Toyota has made some controversial decisions with this new 'Supra' being co-developed with BMW. However the Supra was historically not a crown jewel top product of ToMoCo (even if the MK4 Supra was considered by some to be). The Land Cruiser was always a crown jewel product at Toyota for many years.

ssun30

P.S. For next year's Dakar Rally Toyota South Africa will replace the 2UR with a 3.5 turbo. While we don't know what this engine actually is, there is a high possibility of it being the V35A. This should be a hint that the V35A will be certified for operations in utility vehicles.

Source?

Also in the Lexus IS thread here: https://lexusenthusiast.com/forums/threads/next-generation-is.4430/page-4#post-37454

You mentioned that Toyota would not use a new V6 for the Tacoma/4Runner/Prado, that the 2GR-FKS would be the main engine for those vehicles. Yet here you're stating that the V35A is likely to be certified for utility vehicles. These two different points from you are contradictory. So which is it?

Also just a reminder of this article here: http://www.autonews.com/article/20180326/OEM02/180329837/toyota-truck-translator-mike-sweers

Continuing on with the 2GR-FKS as the main engine for some of the upcoming TNGA-F products just doesn't make sense. The 2GR-FKS is not a long stroke design at all, and is missing many key concepts of Dynamic Force engines. The 2GR-FKS even with the updates it received over the 2GR-FSE, is still an old, dated engine that doesn't deliver enough fuel economy or power compared to current competition today, and going into the future. If Toyota decides to keep using a GR engine for TNGA-F products, the best suited engine is the 1GR. It is a proven good fit for products like the Tacoma and 4Runner.

CIF

Sourcing a competitor's diesel for the Land Cruiser would be heresy.

It is something that was already done on the OJ40 (Mercedes) and BJ70 (VM Motori) for selected markets. As long as it is a proven motor that is easy to service Toyota will use it.

CIF

Source?

http://www.topgear.co.za/2017/11/25/2447/

There is a lot of discussion from the FIA regarding better balance using different engine controlling tools, turbo petrol will be allowed from 2019 onwards with the a maximum capacity of 3.5-litres, which means we can use a 3.5 V6 twin-turbo. That engine has lower fuel consumption than the engine we’re using, more torque but slightly less power. So that’s part of our future plan. We understood that BMW was going away from diesel but now we’re hearing they might keep it until 2021.

I made a mistake by saying the 3.5 V6TT will be used by next year's Hilux Dakar. But regulations has surely allowed them to compete against turbodiesels with turbo gasoline motors, and they are planning to introduce it. The 2UR they use right now put them at a disadvantage in high altitude stages.

ssun30

It is something that was already done on the OJ40 (Mercedes) and BJ70 (VM Motori) for selected markets. As long as it is a proven motor that is easy to service Toyota will use it.



http://www.topgear.co.za/2017/11/25/2447/



I made a mistake by saying the 3.5 V6TT will be used by next year's Hilux Dakar. But regulations has surely allowed them to compete against turbodiesels with turbo gasoline motors, and they are planning to introduce it. The 2UR they use right now put them at a disadvantage in high altitude stages.

I forgot about the OJ40, I will give you that. The BJ70 doesn't count. That VM Motori engine was offered in ONE market, Italy. So that's a total exception. Even the OJ40 though, that was also done in ONE market, Brazil. That OJ40 even had its own local name in Brazil. Eventually, the Mercedes engines were replaced with Toyota diesel engines.

My point mostly stands. There's not much of a precedent here at all to be outsourcing engines for the Land Cruiser. You listed two rare examples that occurred only in two select single markets, out of all worldwide Land Cruiser markets, on two select Land Cruiser variants.

As for the Dakar Rally, well then it's not much news in that case. The future regulations allow them to use a turbo 3.5L engine, but Toyota has not officially confirmed they will be doing so. So we will see.

I heard of Dakar team that V8 engine was not the problem. Regulations did not allow Toyota to incorporate the system which increases/decreases tyre pressure. That gave the pace advantage to competition.

IMO the Yaris/Vios really need a BIG upgrade in the powertrain department, the current 2NR-FE with a CVT just doesn't provide enough performance to compete against the jazz/fit/city(L15 engine with 120 hp matched to a CVT).

Not to mention the arrogance of typical Honda fanboys and fangirls are really getting on my nerves. Plus my 12yo 1st gen Vios is really showing its age, thanks to the horrible Malaysian roads(BTW this country is full of cancerous Honda fans).

Hope Toyota sorts this out when they finally introduce the next generation TNGA Yaris and Vios.

carguy420

So the other teams got to run that system? Sounds kinda strange.

Tires are the most important factor in racing.
In Dakar, you can choose to deflate them and get more traction on sand, or inflate them when you drive over rocks.
Toyota had tire punctures that cost them valuable time. Other than that they had said, car was fine. Peugeot had this system.

https://www.autosport.com/dakar/news/133828/toyota-drivers-slam-unfair-dakar-rules

I have a friend that works for an automotive company that provides turbocharger parts to companies globally. Since I’m a Lexus Enthusiast (see what i did there) I’ve been bugging him about what he knows. All he mentioned is that he has seen a 2.4T and a 3.5TT
So hopefully this comes true. I’d love to see a 4.0TT

First of all, I would like to welcome you to the Lexus Enthusiast forums!!

Now, in regards to the engines, care to indulge us more about the 2.4T? There has also been rumors from magazines (MagX in specific) and insiders about the 2.4 liter turbocharged engine. If you can reveal any more details about this, that would be splendid.

F1 Silver Arrows

First of all, I would like to welcome you to the Lexus Enthusiast forums!!

Now, in regards to the engines, care to indulge us more about the 2.4T? There has also been rumors from magazines (MagX in specific) and insiders about the 2.4 liter turbocharged engine. If you can reveal any more details about this, that would be splendid.

So I asked for more details and all he told me is that the part would be sent to facilities in the USA And Japan. So it seems it would be on both Lexus and Toyota models. The majority of the V6 is for the US while a much smaller one is for Japan. Same goes for the 2.4T

AceVL

So I asked for more details and all he told me is that the part would be sent to facilities in the USA And Japan. So it seems it would be on both Lexus and Toyota models. The majority of the V6 is for the US while a much smaller one is for Japan. Same goes for the 2.4T

The 2.4T is an inline 4, right?
And what do you mean by "a much smaller one is for Japan"? A smaller TT V6?

carguy420

And what do you mean by "a much smaller one is for Japan"? A smaller TT V6?

The way I understood AceVL's comment, he was talking about the market share/sales volume for V6s. Most of them are sold in the U.S., with a smaller number of sales for Japan. In Europe, V6 sales are even lower, given the dominance of 4-cylinder hybrid powertrains there.

Joaquin Ruhi

The way I understood AceVL's comment, he was talking about the market share/sales volume for V6s. Most of them are sold in the U.S., with a smaller number of sales for Japan. In Europe, V6 sales are even lower, given the dominance of 4-cylinder hybrid powertrains there.

Exactly. Sorry I should have been more clear. The volume/market share was higher for the US than than for Japan. Which makes it seem that it will be used in Toyota and Lexus models that are made in the US.

And yes the 2.4T is an in-line at it only uses one of the components versus two for the 3.5TT

Joaquin Ruhi

The way I understood AceVL's comment, he was talking about the market share/sales volume for V6s. Most of them are sold in the U.S., with a smaller number of sales for Japan. In Europe, V6 sales are even lower, given the dominance of 4-cylinder hybrid powertrains there.

AceVL

Exactly. Sorry I should have been more clear. The volume/market share was higher for the US than than for Japan. Which makes it seem that it will be used in Toyota and Lexus models that are made in the US.

And yes the 2.4T is an in-line at it only uses one of the components versus two for the 3.5TT

Thanks for clearing things up!;)

The performance specs of the hypothetical 2.4/2.5T is pretty easy to predict. The only question is what new design elements are used to improve the NVH so it can be a convincing replacement for the 2GR.

ssun30

The performance specs of the hypothetical 2.4/2.5T is pretty easy to predict. The only question is what new design elements are used to improve the NVH so it can be a convincing replacement for the 2GR.

not so sure it will replace 2GR... it will likely be an offering for markets that currently dont get V6 at all.

spwolf

not so sure it will replace 2GR... it will likely be an offering for markets that currently dont get V6 at all.

Hoping this is true.

Gecko

Hoping this is true.

i dont think their target audience likes downsizing in the US and other markets never had V6 or it was very fringe.

Now another thing is that it is likely cheaper to use V6 than 2.4l Turbo.