Lexus Remains Uncommitted to Plug-In Hybrid Technology

In this case, I see the deception not in downsizing itself, but in how it was/is promoted by others in the industry (think "Clean Diesel"). While turbocharging and downsizing can be more efficient, it does not mean it is by default. So what they are making -- two decades later -- is closer to their own versions of Toyota 2JZ-GTE, Subaru EJ20TT and Mazda 13B-REW. Those engines were not meant for efficiency, just for power with limited displacement.

Why do I again have the feeling only TMC (and credit to Mazda too) is honestly working on efficient engines while others sell "torque" numbers?

ssun30

That was the point. To enable true downsizing, variable compression is the necessary technology. Turbocharged engines need to run at competitive compression ratios when off-boost and that will eliminate the biggest obstacle to the full benefit of downsizing. Variable compression turbocharging could be proven uneconomical in the near future, and it's up to Nissan to show the 2.0 VC-T is financially sustainable.

As you just pointed out yourself, variable compression technology is quite expensive to implement. Furthermore, Toyota has done research on variable compression. Toyota does research on many, many things. If you dig deep and follow the news out of Japan, some concerns still exist about long-term reliability and durability of variable compression engines. I doubt Toyota will be implementing variable compression anytime soon.

Reliability and durability are paramount at Toyota. When you consider the fact that Toyota engineers for a long time have felt hydraulic VVT systems are not reliable enough, that shows you Toyota's dedication to reliability. So unless Toyota comes up with a unique spin on variable compression technology, they are unlikely to implement it anytime soon.

Another somewhat modern example is direct injection. Yes it has benefits, but direct injection also has drawbacks. Normal direct injection systems all eventually lead to clogged fuel systems and significant carbon build up inside the engine which is expensive to clean out. Some automakers have come up with poor workarounds for this. What did Toyota do? They came up with a unique (at the time, and still relatively unique) system more than 10 years ago combining port injection with direct injection. This solved the problems and drawbacks of normal direct injection systems.

Likewise, Toyota has researched HCCI for many years, but I don't see implementation anytime soon as significant hurdles remain. Even Mazda's upcoming SkyActive-X system is only a half-measure or partial implementation of HCCI. It is not a real, full system because even Mazda engineers came to the conclusion that currently too many real world hurdles remain to implement a full HCCI system.

ssun30

Otherwise what do you think the V35A-FTS is

An exception. Again, what do you think the A25A and M20A are? You can continue to ignore the stark evidence I have presented, but it doesn't change the fact that there currently is zero concrete evidence or even indications that Toyota will implement a downsizing strategy in the near future.

Here's another fact; downsizing was debated internally at Toyota over the last few years. Specifically it applies to the XV70 Camry. Implementing a turbo 4 cylinder instead of a V6 as the top engine option was discussed and considered internally, but Toyota decided against downsizing. Toyota looked at owner and customer feedback, and there was a strong dislike against the idea of a downsized turbo 4 cylinder, while at the same time a strong preference for the V6 engine. So Toyota kept the V6 in the Camry. Likewise the new Avalon and ES both keep the V6 as the top engine option.

ssun30

Mind you hybridization is another way of downsizing. By that definition Toyota is already committed to downsizing. What I was saying was not self-contradictory.

If you doubt the validity of downsizing, read the research papers Levi posted above. They come straight out of Toyota's own research center

Calling hybridization downsizing is very debatable, and some mental gymnastics apply here.

Is the new Camry's hybrid system "downsized" compared to the A25A? Of course not, it's an upsize overall. Is the hybrid system "downsized" compared to the V6? Well yes and no. The hybrid system is not meant to compete directly with the V6. So in reality, the hybrid system is a middle powertrain option that's an upsize from the A25A, and a totally different option to the V6.

Or how about we look at the history of the Prius. Over the years and generations Toyota has upsized, not downsized the Prius hybrid system.

Research is just that, research. Toyota researches many, many things that never make it to production.

ssun30

If you insist I post proof of my argument, then I have to say you need to overcome a language barrier first. Most of my (advanced) automotive engineering knowledge come from a group of drivetrain engineers on zhihu.com who are generous enough to show parts of their work that are safe to post to the public domain. Unfortunately for you these sources are in Chinese, and those guys who wrote these posts do not allow repost of these information on a different site.

A particularly interesting person is head of drivetrain calibration at TMEC Suzhou who was in charge of calibration of the 6AR-FSE, 8NR-FTS, A25A-FXS, and A20A-FKS. I will try to get permission from this guy to post translations at a future date so stay tuned.

Just to be perfectly clear, I am approaching this discussion from a global point of view. Toyota is a global company after all. I don't know for sure if you are approaching this discussion strictly from your own local regional perspective, because if you are then it's quite pointless in my opinion.

What some engineers may say or think in the Chinese region does not necessarily apply to Toyota on a global basis. I am looking at all the evidence and documentation from Japan, as it pertains to Toyota on a global basis. Regional differences always exist, but what matters in this discussion is Toyota's ultimate global philosophy.

Here's another stark point. Over the last few years various Toyota executives have actually mentioned that they don't see much point in implementing a full, across-the-board downsizing strategy. A couple of Toyota execs flat out came out and said that Toyota would not be implementing such a thing. Again, engines like the V35A or the (not a Dynamic Force engine) 8AR are exceptions.

Maybe in the far-off future Toyota may actually move to downsizing upon bringing to production unique versions of revolutionary technology like variable compression or HCCI. As it pertains to this discussion though, I talk about the future in terms of the short and mid-term future.

I'll end this post with this thought. Decades ago in the 1960s Wankel engines were talked about as a revolutionary new technology to downsize engines. There was a lot of excitement and discussion when Mazda brought out a production Wankel engine. So after all these decades did the Wankel engine take the auto industry by storm? Definitely not. In reality all the advantages on paper didn't amount to much. In reality significant problems appeared with the engine design in real world usage. Since then, only Mazda remains as the sole company still clinging to Wankel engines. What is my point here? Just because certain ideas or technologies seem revolutionary on paper, does not always mean they end up revolutionary in real world usage.

Levi: Nissan is going for efficiency also with their VC-T variable compression scheme.

CIF

Reliability and durability are paramount at Toyota. When you consider the fact that Toyota engineers for a long time have felt hydraulic VVT systems are not reliable enough, that shows you Toyota's dedication to reliability. So unless Toyota comes up with a unique spin on variable compression technology, they are unlikely to implement it anytime soon.

The reason to not downsize yet is that turbocharged engines haven't demonstrated reliability and durability that meets Toyota's standards. So at least you got that part right.

CIF

Calling hybridization downsizing is very debatable, and some mental gymnastics apply here.

Is the new Camry's hybrid system "downsized" compared to the A25A? Of course not, it's an upsize overall. Is the hybrid system "downsized" compared to the V6? Well yes and no. The hybrid system is not meant to compete directly with the V6. So in reality, the hybrid system is a middle powertrain option that's an upsize from the A25A, and a totally different option to the V6.

Or how about we look at the history of the Prius. Over the years and generations Toyota has upsized, not downsized the Prius hybrid system.
cussion from a global point of view. Toyota is a global company after all. I don't know for sure if you are approaching this discussion strictly from your own local regional perspective, because if you are then it's quite pointless in my opinion.

You are getting ridiculous here. Hybridzation is of course about downsizing and there is not even a debate here. Otherwise why do you think the 2.5L THS is called a '300h' system? It is downsized compared to a 3.0L V6 drivetrain, period. Or why do you think the 3.5L THS is called a '450h' system? And Prius, it is a 1.8L system with 2.0L performance so I don't see how it is an upsized drivetrain. The only place where you want to upsize is in a Truck or delivery Van where the engine needs to be overpowered and understressed. Last time I checked the Prius is not know for hauling or towing payload around.

You may have your own opinion but it's not cool to spread obvious misinformation.

CIF

What some engineers may say or think in the Chinese region does not necessarily apply to Toyota on a global basis. I am looking at all the evidence and documentation from Japan, as it pertains to Toyota on a global basis. Regional differences always exist, but what matters in this discussion is Toyota's ultimate global philosophy.

Discrediting someone based on their nationality is not a smart idea. This guy reports directly to Aichi. After all the 8AR, 8NR, A25A, and M20A are global engines. Just because the calibration work is done in China does not mean the work is for the Chinese market only. Toyota built a drivetrain development center there because their Japanese facilities were overloaded and understaffed.

I would back off from discussion for now and see if I can get to share these articles I mentioned earlier.

ssun30

The reason to not downsize yet is that turbocharged engines haven't demonstrated reliability and durability that meets Toyota's standards. So at least you got that part right.

Wrong. Toyota isn't going to turbos across the board because that does not fit with the overall Dynamic Force philosophy. Toyota managed to make turbo engines to Toyota standards long ago, dating back to the JZ turbo engines. Turbos prevent Toyota from achieving ideal performance in terms of overall drivability, thermal management, and thermal efficiency with the Dynamic Force engines. The V35A is so far a big exception that came as a result of deeply divisive internal discussions and debates in the company. Electrically controlled turbos in theory might fit Toyota's ideals of Dynamic Force, but there is zero indication Toyota will bring this to production. They've been researching electric turbos for roughly 20 years with nothing to show for it production-wise.

ssun30

You are getting ridiculous here. Hybridzation is of course about downsizing and there is not even a debate here. Otherwise why do you think the 2.5L THS is called a '300h' system? It is downsized compared to a 3.0L V6 drivetrain, period. Or why do you think the 3.5L THS is called a '450h' system? And Prius, it is a 1.8L system with 2.0L performance so I don't see how it is an upsized drivetrain. The only place where you want to upsize is in a Truck or delivery Van where the engine needs to be overpowered and understressed. Last time I checked the Prius is not know for hauling or towing payload around.

You may have your own opinion but it's not cool to spread obvious misinformation

It is clear you have a different interpretation of what downsize means than I do. The 2.5L hybrid system has a 2.5L gas engine *and* electric motors. Logically, factually, objectively HOW is that downsized from a 3.0L V6? If you're only selectively comparing the gas engines, yes its downsized. If you're comparing overall powertrain to powertrain, then the 2.5L hybrid system is about equal overall to a 3.0L V6. You're continually comparing the hybrid systems to larger gas engines, while I am comparing the hybrid systems mostly to their direct non-hybrid gas engine counterparts. It's a matter of perspective.

Let me spell it out for you. The XW10 Prius used a 1.5L hybrid system. The XW20 used an improved 1.5L hybrid system. Starting with the XW30, the Prius used a new 1.8L hybrid system. This has carried onto the current XW50 Prius. Each Prius generation has also received improved batteries, improved electric motors, and more electric power. Also since the current TNGA XW50 Prius is using a non-Dynamic Force 4 cylinder in its hybrid system, then the next-gen Prius is very likely to use a new 2.0L M20A-based hybrid system. This is only logical as the M20A replaces the 2ZR as the main world 4 cylinder engine. There is a CLEAR progression over the Prius generations of gradually increasing displacement, as well as increasing electric power/capacity. By the very definition of the word, this shows upsizing has occurred during the history of the Prius. This is irrefutable, so I don't know your issue here.

ssun30

Discrediting someone based on their nationality is not a smart idea. This guy reports directly to Aichi. After all the 8AR, 8NR, A25A, and M20A are global engines. Just because the calibration work is done in China does not mean the work is for the Chinese market only. Toyota built a drivetrain development center there because their Japanese facilities were overloaded and understaffed.

This has nothing to do with nationality, relax. This has everything to do with the concept of regional differences in general. Do specific regional European markets, African markets, South American markets dictate the overall global Toyota strategy? Of course not. The overall global Toyota strategy is formulated taking into account the needs of all the regions. Some differences are allowed and allotted to specific regions. Toyota globally strives to build cars that drive well in any region, in any market, under any conditions. Even here in North America, the regional engineers do not get final say. Final say obviously happens at Toyota global headquarters in Japan. Under Akio Toyoda though, individual regions have received more say and more autonomy in terms of how they fit into the global Toyota strategy. By the way, Toyota opened a new large global powertrain building right near their global headquarters in Japan a few years ago. Main global powertrain development happens in that new building.

ssun30

I would back off from discussion for now and see if I can get to share these articles I mentioned earlier.

I have no interest in taking this discussion further at this point. I have said what I felt was needed to be said. If you have any direct proof or indication of Toyota moving to downsized engines, post it. Otherwise nothing more of note can be discussed here. Subjective interpretations of what downsizing means is not a meaningful discussion.

Everyone, critique of opinion and dispute of facts are fine, but let's avoid disparaging the person who holds the opinion ... Thanks!

Just to be clear, it was not my intention to personally attack or personally disparage anyone. I'm saying this to remove any possible misinterpretations of my posts.

CIF

Just to be clear, it was not my intention to personally attack or personally disparage anyone. I'm saying this to remove any possible misinterpretations of my posts.

IMO ... no worries my friend. I wish I had the depth of knowledge you always bring to your posts!

And to be clear, I appreciate the enthusiasm everyone brings to LE!

RAL

IMO ... no worries my friend. I wish I had the depth of knowledge you always bring to your posts!

And to be clear, I appreciate the enthusiasm everyone brings to LE!

Thanks :).

Lexus hybrid technology seems to be most impressive right now. Hopefully we see some of this added to performance ala a GS 450h which in retrospect was way ahead of its time.

mikeavelli

Lexus hybrid technology seems to be most impressive right now. Hopefully we see some of this added to performance ala a GS 450h which in retrospect was way ahead of its time.

I wish Toyota/Lexus would be a bit more adventurous with their hybrid powertrain applications. Many times, it seems the company just errs on the side of adequate. It would be fun to see something like the new 2L hybrid system in the new Corolla Hatchback or an optional 2.5L hybrid system in the UX (maybe rear motor only to help with weight distribution?). My experience is that their hybrid systems seem to punch quite a bit above what their max output would suggest, which is most likely a function of the instant torque from the electric motor(s), but horsepower limitations still apply. If you look at the NX300h, it's impressive that it can achieve the kind of gas mileage that it does on an SUV weighing more than 4000 lbs, but the power is the very definition of just adequate. The same can be said for the new ES300h with its newer generation of the technology. Its acceleration is decent due to the slightly more HP and lighter curb weight, but do luxury car buyers really want "decent" or "adequate"?

I, too, wish Toyota/Lexus would have more powertrain options, though not just with hybrids. I test drove a 2008 Yaris many years back and thought it was an underpowered lump with the meager 1.5l. If it had the 1.8l (1ZZ/2ZR?) to give it a little more kick, it would have been fine. Similarly, giving Corollas the option to get the Camry's 4cyl as a performance option would be nice. Heck, they already did that with the second Corolla XRS (2AZ). There was even the JDM Toyota Blade Master G Touring Edition (ugh) which was basically a Corolla hatchback with the 2GR.

Finally, if it would fit, it'd be awesome to see a V6 hybrid option on the K platform sedans (Camry, Avalon, ES, Auris) as a top-shelf option. Electric RWD for AWD functionality could be sweet.

TheNerdyPotato

I, too, wish Toyota/Lexus would have more powertrain options, though not just with hybrids. I test drove a 2008 Yaris many years back and thought it was an underpowered lump with the meager 1.5l. If it had the 1.8l (1ZZ/2ZR?) to give it a little more kick, it would have been fine. Similarly, giving Corollas the option to get the Camry's 4cyl as a performance option would be nice. Heck, they already did that with the second Corolla XRS (2AZ). There was even the JDM Toyota Blade Master G Touring Edition (ugh) which was basically a Corolla hatchback with the 2GR.

Finally, if it would fit, it'd be awesome to see a V6 hybrid option on the K platform sedans (Camry, Avalon, ES, Auris) as a top-shelf option. Electric RWD for AWD functionality could be sweet.

Both new 2019 Corolla Hatch and 2018 Camry have very decent base engines.

Camry V6 is already only 8% of the sales, you can imagine how low would be vehicle that sells for extra $5k of that.

But it is still interesting that Toyota is bringing AWD Camry/Avalon/Prius to the USA.

Fair enough, but my thought on this occurred a few years back, when I drove that Yaris and realized that Corollas had been stuck at ~130hp for over a decade, yet were growing heavier every year. The M20 should be a solid update.

Edit: And since they won't sell me a Yaris GRMN, at least sell me one with the M20 and a stick. I like little whippable cars around town.

TheNerdyPotato

Fair enough, but my thought on this occurred a few years back, when I drove that Yaris and realized that Corollas had been stuck at ~130hp for over a decade, yet were growing heavier every year. The M20 should be a solid update.

Edit: And since they won't sell me a Yaris GRMN, at least sell me one with the M20 and a stick. I like little whippable cars around town.

well, if Japanese rumors are true, there will be a lot of GRMN versions with new 1.6 3cly turbo with 240hp in the future.

spwolf

new 2019 Corolla Hatch... have very decent base engines.

I just realized that the Corolla sedan is a carryover model, which is a disappointment.

TheNerdyPotato

I just realized that the Corolla sedan is a carryover model, which is a disappointment.

New Corolla Wagon and Sedan based on Hatch are coming.

Wagon: https://icdn-1.motor1.com/images/mgl/3x9k1/s1/2019-toyota-auris-wagon-spy-photo.jpg
Sedan: https://icdn-7.motor1.com/images/mgl/ORomo/s1/2020-toyota-corolla-spy-photo.jpg

I Corolla based Celica, as the last generation was is not impossible. Almost all TMC cars can have AWD, if they decide to.

I think part of Toyota’s problem is that they just got complacent. There was no sense of urgency in anything they did over the past almost two decades it seems. It’s hurting them now in my opinion.

They were like GM of old: fat, content and happy. Making appliances.

Others innovated, took risks, moved forward, Toyota didn’t.

Only recently did they realize the error of their ways. They overcompensated for the years of neglect by going crazy in the design language. They haven’t done anything with power trains, though, and it’s apparent.

I’m just wondering if it’s too late. Their design language, IMO, is good intentions gone bad. They didn’t need to go wild had they not stood still for as long as they did. And, their engine prowess has yet to be proven again.

Rhambler

Others innovated, took risks, moved forward, Toyota didn’t.

Innovated what? Camless engines are for sale? Sorry, but there has been no innovation at all, only tech no body asked for and horsepower wars for people that can't pilot.

Risks? That all cars look the same? Maybe the "coupe" CUVs and "whale" sedans, but that is it.

If there is one company that innovated and took risks, it is Tesla.

Levi

New Corolla Wagon and Sedan based on Hatch are coming.

Wagon: https://icdn-1.motor1.com/images/mgl/3x9k1/s1/2019-toyota-auris-wagon-spy-photo.jpg
Sedan: https://icdn-7.motor1.com/images/mgl/ORomo/s1/2020-toyota-corolla-spy-photo.jpg

That's good. Better late than never. US most likely won't get a wagon version (without a lift kit), sadly.

Levi

horsepower wars for people that can't pilot.

To be clear on my part, I'm not really a speed demon, but I would like it if my next economy car was closer to 8s 0-60mph than 10s. The CVTs are too slow. From what I've seen of the 6MT Corollas, they have to disable traction control and bark out 1st gear to get them under 9s. I don't like stressing my clutch and driveline that much so, those results are meaningless for daily driving.

Rhambler

I think part of Toyota’s problem is that they just got complacent. There was no sense of urgency in anything they did over the past almost two decades it seems. It’s hurting them now in my opinion.

They were like GM of old: fat, content and happy. Making appliances.

Others innovated, took risks, moved forward, Toyota didn’t.

Only recently did they realize the error of their ways. They overcompensated for the years of neglect by going crazy in the design language. They haven’t done anything with power trains, though, and it’s apparent.

I’m just wondering if it’s too late. Their design language, IMO, is good intentions gone bad. They didn’t need to go wild had they not stood still for as long as they did. And, their engine prowess has yet to be proven again.

Toyota Motor Corporation is the wealthiest auto manufacturer in the world with net equity and some US$171 billion.
By comparison, Daimler AG has only some US$81 billion, with BMW AG just some $61 billion.

TMC is heavily focused on money, money, money, hence this may be the reason why TMC has fallen behind in small capacity turbos, and even plug-in hybrids PHEV's as some have said.
It may be this same focus on net wealth that leads to the axing of the 5GS RWD-based sedan, at a time when the Germans have both regular sedans in the E Class/5 Series/A6, versus the 4 Door Gran Coupes in the CLS/6 Series/A7's.
Likewise, the German SUV tall wagens come in two body styles too, like the regular GLC/X3 & GLE/X5 versus the 4 Door Coupe SUV's like the GLC Coupe/X4 & GLE Coupe/X6.

Where Toyota Motor Corporation has a small range with fewer choices to maximize profits, the Germans have a wider range of choices for a superior reputation - albeit at a cost to their net wealth obviously.

By being late to the party with small capacity turbos, and axing the rear wheel drive based GS, TMC is damaging its reputation in performance and chassis dynamics.

However, it is very hard to say.
Perhaps with electrification just around the corner, TMC realizes that there is presently too many different powertrain and bodystyle choices?
Hence they have reduced the number of powertrains and body styles?

If you were TMC, right now, would you want to pour much money into developing "electric" turbos used in F1 which can accelerate the turbo to 70,000 rpm in just 2 milliseconds to virtually eliminate lag?
Right now, I don't think any auto manufacturer wants to pour much more money into ICE.
Right now, they'd be pouring money into EV's...

TheNerdyPotato

Fair enough, but my thought on this occurred a few years back, when I drove that Yaris and realized that Corollas had been stuck at ~130hp for over a decade, yet were growing heavier every year. The M20 should be a solid update.

Edit: And since they won't sell me a Yaris GRMN, at least sell me one with the M20 and a stick. I like little whippable cars around town.

I test drove a Mitsubish Outlander Sport 2.0 and a Honda HR-V 1.8 SUV tall wagens last week, and both had decent power and torque, but absolutely pathetic NVH.

The Mitsubishi was okay cruising, but wide throttle openings meants loud and crass NVH.
The HR-V was a bit louder than Mitsubishi at idle, though slightly smoother & quieter than the Mitsubishi under acceleration, but still very loud & crass NVH.
Ditto the current outgoing Corolla 1.8's - idle, power/torque & cruising is satisfactory, but at wide throttle, the NVH is poor.
The 2016 Civic 1.5 Turbo has a rough idle, with coarsish NVH at small throttle openings, though better than the Corolla 1.8.

I suspect ALL manufacturers do this to deliberately push customers to purchase further up the range like Camries to get decent NVH.

By comparison, my Mazda 929 2.0 4 cylinder carby from over 30 years ago idled and accelerated very smoothly and very quietly with seemingly deliberately superior engine mounts & much more insulation; it was only rough & buzzy past 4000 rpm.
25 years ago, a Camry 2.2 with balance shafts was silky smooth around town, and it only became strained at hi rpm.
Today, a Camry 2.5 is also reasonably refined.
The current model Mercedes C300 2.0 Turbo is probably the smoothest & quietest idling & revving 2.0 turbo around.
A French Lexus GS300h 2.5 Hybrid is so quiet & smooth revving too.
I can't remember which is smoother revving - the C300 or an overseas GS300h.

My wife's Lexus' 2.0 Turbo idles perfectly smoothly & almost inaudibly, and full throttles just about as as well as Benz' 2.0T.
However around town, the GS300t 2.0T does NOT rev as smoothly as either C300, nor overseas GS300h; I suspect that the low rpm throbbiness has something to do with the Atkinson Cycle at work, as opposed to using the conventional Otto Cycle.

I hope the new Corolla 2.0 genuinely ups the NVH...

That is the big "scandal" in the auto industry. NVH is hidden under badge and tech toys nobody asked. If there was cheap car with the right NVH, premium cars would probably not sell anymore, or they would have to find new ways.

Rhambler

They were like GM of old: fat, content and happy. Making appliances.

GM *never* made appliances. Detroit unreliability is why Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Subaru took over the market in the 80s. Even in the 90s and 00s designed-in failure in the Northstar V8 is what cemented Cadillac's status as the Standard of Nothing.

Rhambler

Others innovated, took risks, moved forward, Toyota didn’t.

What innovation? Innovation in cheating EPA tests? Innovation in making a billion CUVs that all look kind of like a '97 Grand Cherokee and a Honda Odyssey mated? High horsepower isn't innovation. Going fast isn't innovation. Tesla handily beats every ICE that will ever be made using what is basically 120-year-old technology.

peterharvey

However, it is very hard to say.
Perhaps with electrification just around the corner, TMC realizes that there is presently too many different powertrain and bodystyle choices?
Hence they have reduced the number of powertrains and body styles?

That's exactly what they are doing and what the whole industry is moving to in the next decade. The future of automobile is very boring and very efficient. Every technology, when sufficiently sophisticated, will be brutally efficient and boring at the same time. Variety is the result of inefficiency.

peterharvey

If you were TMC, right now, would you want to pour much money into developing "electric" turbos used in F1 which can accelerate the turbo to 70,000 rpm in just 2 milliseconds to virtually eliminate lag?
Right now, I don't think any auto manufacturer wants to pour much more money into ICE.
Right now, they'd be pouring money into EV's...

Electric turbos are a technological dead end. They are a lot of engineering and cost for very little gains, and they will never be reliable enough for mass market applications due to the need for a extremely fast rotating rotor. The extra cost will always be better spent on actual hybrid components. The general industry consensus is that they will see use on supercars and high-end luxury cars for about a decade and then disappear. F1 engines are very efficient and powerful because they are essentially turbocompound engines, which is a 1950s technology and was a technological dead end back then as well. Toyota will not seriously invest in the technology and focus on full electric instead.

Camless engines please! :yum

ssun30

That's exactly what they are doing and what the whole industry is moving to in the next decade. The future of automobile is very boring and very efficient. Every technology, when sufficiently sophisticated, will be brutally efficient and boring at the same time. Variety is the result of inefficiency.



Electric turbos are a technological dead end. They are a lot of engineering and cost for very little gains, and they will never be reliable enough for mass market applications due to the need for a extremely fast rotating rotor. The extra cost will always be better spent on actual hybrid components. The general industry consensus is that they will see use on supercars and high-end luxury cars for about a decade and then disappear. F1 engines are very efficient and powerful because they are essentially turbocompound engines, which is a 1950s technology and was a technological dead end back then as well. Toyota will not seriously invest in the technology and focus on full electric instead.

So what's the future for Toyota? Downsized turbo engines or no replacement for displacement?

carguy420

So what's the future for Toyota? Downsized turbo engines or no replacement for displacement?

I heard that it will be gasoline-electric hybrids, combined with EV's for urban/metropolitan driving, with hydrogen fuel cell powered electric vehicles HFCEV's for long distance esp commercial vehicles.

As to whether the gasoline-electric hybrids will be no replacement for displacement, or small capacity turbos - I don't know.
Some say that no replacement for displacement gasoline-electric hybrids are more efficient.
Yet I also hear of small capacity turbo gasoline-electric hybrids coming.

However, all traditional ICE's will have a limit compared to EV's and HFCEV's...

peterharvey

I heard that it will be gasoline-electric hybrids, combined with EV's for urban/metropolitan driving, with hydrogen fuel cell powered electric vehicles HFCEV's for long distance esp commercial vehicles.

As to whether the gasoline-electric hybrids will be no replacement for displacement, or small capacity turbos - I don't know.
Some say that no replacement for displacement gasoline-electric hybrids are more efficient.
Yet I also hear of small capacity turbo gasoline-electric hybrids coming.

However, all traditional ICE's will have a limit compared to EV's and HFCEV's...

https://automotivemegatrends.com/internal-combustion-engine-4-0/
I digged up some info about future powertrains in general.