Lexus Remains Uncommitted to Plug-In Hybrid Technology

Would TMCs hybrid system make sense for duty vehicles, paired to a diesel engine? The next Land Cruiser might not have such tech, because usually the Land Cruiser only adopts proven tech, but for example the next Prado? I am somehow surprised there are yet no (many) hybrid duty vehicles, the hybrid (non-plugin which still does not convince me) has proven itself.

Levi

Would TMCs hybrid system make sense for duty vehicles, paired to a diesel engine? The next Land Cruiser might not have such tech, because usually the Land Cruiser only adopts proven tech, but for example the next Prado? I am somehow surprised there are yet no (many) hybrid duty vehicles, the hybrid (non-plugin which still does not convince me) has proven itself.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1088464_toyotas-largest-heaviest-hybrid-hino-195h-truck
https://www.greenfleetmagazine.com/125206/hybrid-hino-cabover-gets-14-mpg-for-plumbing-fleet

Apparently, they do make some sense. Maybe not exactly what you were looking for, but if tow trucks and moving vans can get better mileage, I'm not complaining.

To circle back to Toyota/Lexus' state of engines: I've said it before and I'll say it again, this company's poor engine development is one of the PRIMARY reasons Lexus' higher echelon sedans and coupes sell so damn poorly. People buy these cars not to just shuttle people around (that's what SUVs are for), but for a performance element that Lexus just lacks and flat-out lies about to compensate.

Everything from the 4 cylinder up to the 8 cylinder are just piss-poor and they don't perform nearly as well as the competitors'. In fact, competitor's 4 cylinders typically out perform Lexus' 6 cylinders in REAL-WORLD testing.

That's why BMW, Audi and MB's 4 Cylinders are so popular: they actually perform well, trouncing even Lexus' ubiquitous V6.

Toyota just doesn't know how to or refuses to develop a decent engine. The complete lack of effort in the Supra (they didn't even try) and the poor-performing 3.5L V6 tt (what were they smoking when they published the performance numbers?) says all that needs to be said.

Remember this and watch when they release whatever engines. Pay special attention to what Lexus says these engines are capable of versus what everyone else tests them to and laugh...

TheNerdyPotato

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1088464_toyotas-largest-heaviest-hybrid-hino-195h-truck
https://www.greenfleetmagazine.com/125206/hybrid-hino-cabover-gets-14-mpg-for-plumbing-fleet

Apparently, they do make some sense. Maybe not exactly what you were looking for, but if tow trucks and moving vans can get better mileage, I'm not complaining.

problem here is the price + it is still significantly dirtier than petrol hybrids...

but it would certainly be sweet in Prado.

Rhambler

To circle back to Toyota/Lexus' state of engines: I've said it before and I'll say it again, this company's poor engine development is one of the PRIMARY reasons Lexus' higher echelon sedans and coupes sell so damn poorly. People buy these cars not to just shuttle people around (that's what SUVs are for), but for a performance element that Lexus just lacks and flat-out lies about to compensate.

Everything from the 4 cylinder up to the 8 cylinder are just piss-poor and they don't perform nearly as well as the competitors'. In fact, competitor's 4 cylinders typically out perform Lexus' 6 cylinders in REAL-WORLD testing.

That's why BMW, Audi and MB's 4 Cylinders are so popular: they actually perform well, trouncing even Lexus' ubiquitous V6.

Toyota just doesn't know how to or refuses to develop a decent engine. The complete lack of effort in the Supra (they didn't even try) and the poor-performing 3.5L V6 tt (what were they smoking when they published the performance numbers?) says all that needs to be said.

Remember this and watch when they release whatever engines. Pay special attention to what Lexus says these engines are capable of versus what everyone else tests them to and laugh...

I won't even try to argue with you on who makes the best engines in the world, because your comment is mostly untrue.

The winner is obviously Mazda, the second BMW, but TMC should be a pretty close third.

Wake me up when Audi reaches 40% thermal efficiency.

We can't complain about the V6TT, maybe the transmission, but not the engine. I am also not impressed by any 4 cylinder turbo engine what ever maker, there is simply no significant difference.

Who cares about “thermal efficiency.”

You think the average driver—especially one that can afford these cars—gives a cent-pence to something that no one understands outside the Society of Automotive Engineers?

No.

I’ll be sure to tell the salesman that I’m not going to buy the Audi because it has less thermal efficiency than the Lexus...

Rhambler

Who cares about “thermal efficiency.” You think the average driver—especially one that can afford these cars—gives a cent-pence to something that no one understands outside the Society of Automotive Engineers? No. I’ll be sure to tell the salesman that I’m not going to buy the Audi because it has less thermal efficiency than the Lexus...

How is it even possible that you can be this dense? Seems like I spotted the one who hasn't had the car-buying experience before.

You don't seem to understand how important "thermal efficiency" is nowadays. It seems like if I tell you within terms of horsepower, then you'll be able to understand, because you probably don't comprehend anything further than that (no offense). Hey kiddo. Thermal efficiency is not only a huge benefit in terms of fuel efficiency, but horsepower too. That's how the new four cylinder that's in the 2018 Camry gained around 30 horsepower more than the 2017 Camry. It's because of "thermal efficiency".

That isn't enough for you? Absolute mad and modern race cars that grace this earth chase high levels of thermal efficiency. That's how they perform so well. If you manage to hit that sweet spot and beyond, that's what will give you the edge over your fellow competitors. Formula 1 and the World Endurance Championship are both examples of high-profile series that chase thermal efficiency (I can still list more racing series if you like to prove you wrong).

Think twice about what the hell you're saying. "Who cares about thermal efficiency"? The world does. It is one point within engineering and technology that is driving us forward among other things (and even then thermal efficiency is NOT the only big thing out there). Give me a break. You're welcome for the small engineering lesson by the way.

I appreciate you putting your thoughts in the forum, but your ignorance is shameful.

Rhambler

Toyota just doesn't know how to or refuses to develop a decent engine. The complete lack of effort in the Supra (they didn't even try) and the poor-performing 3.5L V6 tt (what were they smoking when they published the performance numbers?) says all that needs to be said.

Have you actually driven an LS500 with the TTV6? It's a *substantial* improvement over the outgoing V8 in terms of always-available power, and it gets better MPG doing it. That engine and the handling from the GA-L suspension put a smile on my face every time I drive the thing.

If what was on paper covered the experience of driving cars, we wouldn't need cars.

Can't really blame what he said. German Car Fans and Buyers are usually automotive ignorant. The only thing they know and care about is Badge Value.

Hey guys let's not get carried away. If Toyota's hybrid system is fitted with a solid state battery, would it improve its performance?


When it comes to the under 2.0l engine, is it going to be a 3 cylinder or a 4 cylinder? Is it going to be NA or turbo?

carguy420

Hey guys let's not get carried away. If Toyota's hybrid system is fitted with a solid state battery, would it improve its performance?

Unlikely, since solid state batteries have low power density, making them only suitable for BEVs. Toyota is more likely to stick with liquid electrolyte Li-ion for HVs/PHVs. It is now at 1kW/kg at package level, but there's still a lot of potential. 3kW/kg is achievable on liquid electrolyte Li-ion (the Chevy Malibu Hybrid already achieved that with the 5kW/kg Fujitsu cell).

ssun30

Unlikely, since solid state batteries have low power density, making them only suitable for BEVs. They are more likely to stick with liquid electrolyte Li-ion for HVs/PHVs. They are now at 1kW/kg at package level, but there's still a lot of potential. 3kW/kg is achievable on liquid electrolyte Li-ion (the Chevy Malibu Hybrid already achieved that with the 5kW/kg Fujitsu cell).

Is there any reason Toyota kept their batteries at a low power density? Is it a cost issue or safety issue?

www.thedrive.com/tech/15584/toyotas-solid-state-battery-lifespan-disappoints-face-still-more-challenges

I hadn't heard about this tech and its developments. A little googling found this article. Apparently, it's not the energy density, so much as the lifespan of the batteries. "He did note that customers would not buy an electric car if the battery pack needed to be replaced after three years." This quote leads me to believe that the SSBs tend to wear out quickly.

TheNerdyPotato

www.thedrive.com/tech/15584/toyotas-solid-state-battery-lifespan-disappoints-face-still-more-challenges

I hadn't heard about this tech and its developments. A little googling found this article. Apparently, it's not the energy density, so much as the lifespan of the batteries. "He did note that customers would not buy an electric car if the battery pack needed to be replaced after three years." This quote leads me to believe that the SSBs tend to wear out quickly.

It will be sometime before Toyota truly make high performance hybrids for the public. I personally hope Gazoo Racing churns out some badass vehicles in the future.

Anyone have any ideas about what engine the next generation Yaris/Vios is going to have?

TheNerdyPotato

www.thedrive.com/tech/15584/toyotas-solid-state-battery-lifespan-disappoints-face-still-more-challenges

I hadn't heard about this tech and its developments. A little googling found this article. Apparently, it's not the energy density, so much as the lifespan of the batteries. "He did note that customers would not buy an electric car if the battery pack needed to be replaced after three years." This quote leads me to believe that the SSBs tend to wear out quickly.

That article was a clickbait amongst all the anti-Toyota pro-Tesla press which was prevalent during that time. BBC reported it in a more neutral tone and the words used were like "Toyota wants a battery that could last well beyond 150,000km". The "three years" comment was not referring to the SSBs, but some sloppy Li-ion batteries made by some Chinese OEMs. Overall, they are making solid (no pun intended) progress in that front, although just like any new technology, they won't completely switch to it on Day One.

Low power density is an inherent characteristic of SSBs, since the electrodes have high impedence and thus low charge flux across them. You can Google it; it is shown clearly on a research funded by Toyota that, SSBs will have at most 2kW/L of volumetric power density, which is well below what regular Li-ion batteries can achieve.

carguy420

Is there any reason Toyota kept their batteries at a low power density? Is it a cost issue or safety issue?

We don't really know what metric Toyota uses for battery power. Some manufacturers quote 15-second burst maximum, some 30-second burst maximum, and it can even be sustained output. These values can be wildly different. It could also be that the battery pack itself is not the limit, but rather it is the inverter. The true specs of the batteries are their trade secret, so we can only speculate. The 500h system has a 45kg pack with 45kW, making it roughly 1kW/kg, that's the only number accessible on our part.

What we do know is that the TS050 LMP1 car has a battery with more than 368kW, while the car itself only weighs 870kg (again, specific numbers of the battery is a trade secret). So clearly TMC should have a few cards up its sleeves. Maybe we will see the true potential of their batteries when they release their first mass-produced THS-R sports car.

By the way, welcome @carguy420 to Lexus Enthusiast! :)

carguy420

Anyone have any ideas about what engine the next generation Yaris/Vios is going to have?

I would guess new 1.5 NR engine that they started putting everywhere last year, Europe has estec version.

And of course new 1.5l hybrid.

ssun30

I will again bring the China-only Corolla/Levin hybrids to this discussion, because honestly TMEC Suzhou did the best job at making hybrids that are not annoying to drive. The Corolla hybrid is tuned for two scenarios: 0-50kph and 30-60kph acceleration which are the most common on chinese roads (starting from a green light and accelerating onto a highway ramp). At these speeds the hybrid system employs electric boost very aggressively, almost ramping up to maximum output instantly, unlike the Prius that just bogs even at WOT. To compensate for that, they also employ more aggressive regen strategies. Their market campaign repeatedly show the Corolla outrunning the BMW 320i or the Audi A4 TFSI. The end result is very positive; people recognize hybrids as not only more fuel efficient but also very fast.

An overly conservative software is what gave the Prius a terrible reputation. To preserve battery and maximize MPG, the hybrid system is programmed to, well, do nothing. The Corolla hybrid uses an identical hybrid system found on the Gen 4 Prius, but the two couldn't be further apart in terms of driving quality. The fuel economy for the Prius and the Corolla hybrid is 4.3L/100km and 4.7L/100km respectively. That's a 9% difference, but the Prius also had tons of aerodynamic and weight-saving tricks so I would say the actual advantage is less than 5%.

Very interesting, this is last year hybrid, what system does it have? Same as Prius?

Actually Toyota has mentioned more aggressive battery power in sport mode for both UX and ES. I wonder if this is basis of rumors of upcoming Prius engine update with more power.

Since many countries tax on CO2, and especially based on WLTP, they will likely put this in Sport mode only, since that will allow them to have both savings in standard more and extra power in Sports mode. This is of course very nice because users do not need full acceleration for a very long sustained time and is of course possible to do.

First gen GS450h actually had two "speeds" and it allowed for a lot more torque and power at up to 40 mph or whatever it was (forgot) but it was supposedly terribly expensive.

Also, main reason they are doing above is to counter Nissan's e-Power series hybrids that are becoming super popular in Japan, and exactly for the same reason - Nissan tuned it to deliver very good output at low speeds, and still deliver good rated mpg.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterl...at-the-hybrid-car-of-the-future/#f8ebebf7797c

Nissan keeps saying how their system is cheaper than parallel hybrid, but I seriously do question that since they would produce it outside Japan if this was the case. There is really no reason for them to let Toyota grab all the sales in Europe. However this year Nissan Note has overcome Prius this year to be #1 best seller, i would guess big reason is this e-power system.

spwolf

Very interesting, this is last year hybrid, what system does it have? Same as Prius?

The Corolla HV shares powertrain with Gen.4 Prius, not the latest one. Gen.5 Prius powertrain is coming on the 2019 facelifted Corolla HV and Corolla PHV.

spwolf

First gen GS450h actually had two "speeds" and it allowed for a lot more torque and power at up to 40 mph or whatever it was (forgot) but it was supposedly terribly expensive.

It is the predecessor to the multistage, a two stage system using a ravigenaux planetary gear.. The multistage expands upon that by adding an extra set of planetary gear giving four different ratios. It's misleading when Toyota PR say the multistage is a hybrid mated to a four speed auto, since the extra planetary gear sets are part of the hybrid system, and there's no torque converter. By their definition the GS450h had a hybrid mated to a two speed auto.

spwolf

Also, main reason they are doing above is to counter Nissan's e-Power series hybrids that are becoming super popular in Japan, and exactly for the same reason - Nissan tuned it to deliver very good output at low speeds, and still deliver good rated mpg.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterl...at-the-hybrid-car-of-the-future/#f8ebebf7797c

Nissan keeps saying how their system is cheaper than parallel hybrid, but I seriously do question that since they would produce it outside Japan if this was the case. There is really no reason for them to let Toyota grab all the sales in Europe. However this year Nissan Note has overcome Prius this year to be #1 best seller, i would guess big reason is this e-power system.

e-Power is a pure serial hybrid that suits kei cars and subcompact city cars very well since it's very simple, hence its popularity in Japan. Actually Toyota regards it as a very competent threat and is investigating its own serial hybrid powertrain for Daihatsu. Alternatively it could source the mild-hybrid system from Suzuki, although it won't be nearly as efficient.

The problem is that it's not scalable. You see, it needs an ICE, a generator, a motor, and a very high power density battery, all of which become really expensive when required power levels grow above 60kW. The Chevy Volt (also a serial hybrid) has a huge battery that acts as a buffer to decouple the power of the generator and the motor. e-Power has close to no energy reservoir, so all the components need to be sized to exactly the same specs which drives up the cost.

Let's say you are making a 100kW hybrid car. On a pure serial hybrid you will need a 100kW ICE, a 100kW generator, a 100kW battery, and a 100kW motor (although the ICE and generator can be downsized to ~50kW). A serial-parallel needs a 75kW ICE, a 25kW generator, a 25kW battery, a 50kW motor, and a planetary gear system. Finally a parallel hybrid needs a 75kW ICE, a 25kW battery, a 25kW motor, and a mechanical gearbox. Now you see how e-Power becomes awkward in high power applications.

So in the end e-Power has its own sweet spot in Japan, but not enough of a threat in markets that need larger vehicles.

ssun30

The Corolla HV shares powertrain with Gen.4 Prius, not the latest one. Gen.5 Prius powertrain is coming on the 2019 facelifted Corolla HV and Corolla PHV.

---

e-Power is a pure serial hybrid that suits kei cars and subcompact city cars very well since it's very simple, hence its popularity in Japan. Actually Toyota regards it as a very competent threat and is investigating its own serial hybrid powertrain for Daihatsu. Alternatively it could source the mild-hybrid system from Suzuki, although it won't be nearly as efficient.

1. Cool for Corolla Hybrid, this is what I thought. Upcoming PHEV should use Prime's.
2. It might be much simpler technologically (but still not cheaper possibly) but customer does not care about such things. They care that it is fast off the line (Prius c/ Vitz main issue) and that it gets good mpg.

It is good for us that customer likes Nissan's hybrids because it will make Toyota focus on speed, not just mpg.

ssun30

It is the predecessor to the multistage, a two stage system using a ravigenaux planetary gear.. The multistage expands upon that by adding an extra set of planetary gear giving four different ratios. It's misleading when Toyota PR say the multistage is a hybrid mated to a four speed auto, since the extra planetary gear sets are part of the hybrid system, and there's no torque converter. By their definition the GS450h had a hybrid mated to a two speed auto.

I thought a ravigneaux gear set was basically a double planetary gear with 2 suns and rings that is used by many 4 speed automatics. It seems a little overkill for a 2 speed. Maybe that's what the multistage is using?

TheNerdyPotato

I thought a ravigneaux gear set was basically a double planetary gear with 2 suns and rings that is used by many 4 speed automatics. It seems a little overkill for a 2 speed. Maybe that's what the multistage is using?

A ravigenaux gearset offers three forward ratios and one reverse ratio right? I think those 4ATs usually have an overdrive attached for the 4th gear.

The GS450h only makes use of two out of the three ratios. The multi-stage uses two separate planetary gearsets.

F1 Silver Arrows

By the way, welcome @carguy420 to Lexus Enthusiast! :)

Thank you

Great off the line acceleration and overtaking performance plus great fuel economy will help Toyota get even more supporters. Time to get rid of the sluggish acceleration found on the Pruis/Prius C.

And as for Gazoo Racing, THS-R please.

Rhambler

I love how Lexus reported a monthly sales increase this past month by using percentage rates, whereas most manufacturers reported true numbers.

Typical of Toyota: over reporting and over stating values, just like their engines.

I wouldn’t call that ignorance, though. Let’s see, what word would fit better? Hmm. Denial. There we go.

Rhambler is just a troll who is not actually a lexus enthusiast but just has too much time on his hands.

The Lexus numbers are reported every month but only an actual lexus enthusiast would know that :eyes:

I just never noticed it before and it is misleading in my opinion.

I only noticed it after reading Tragic’s post in the April Sales thread, where Lexus reported a monthly sales increase, while the media (and numbers) shows a decline.

Go to the summary release of other manufactuers and they report percentages based on volume, which to me makes more sense.

Like I said, denial, or it paints a misleading picture. Either way, regardless of how they report, it’s not changing (nor can it hide for long) the fact that another luxury maker will overtake Lexus if the REAL RATES don’t change.

Mercedes-Benz USA, propelled by strong demand for SUVs, topped the luxury U.S. sales race in April and continues to outpace its nearest rivals, No. 2 BMW and No. 3 Lexus, year to date.

Mercedes' U.S. sales inched 1 percent higher in April to 27,207, excluding the brand's commercial van sales. U.S. sales at Mercedes for January through April dipped 0.4 percent to 105,681 from a year ago. BMW sales rose 3.8 percent in April to 23,482, while Lexus volume dipped 2.1 percent to 21,642.

Rounding out the luxury segment's top five brands in April U.S. sales were Audi, with sales of 19,104, up 2.1 percent; and Acura, with deliveries of 11,888, down 16 percent.

Even with a dip in volume, Mercedes remains in first place among luxury brands year to date, followed by BMW (97,317) and Lexus (85,853).

Mercedes-Benz' volume leaders in April were the GLC, C class and GLE. The GLC took the lead in April with U.S. sales of 5,853, followed by C class deliveries of 5,148. The GLE rounded out the top three with 4,110 units sold.

"April sales are leading us into a solid second quarter," Mercedes-Benz USA CEO Dietmar Exler said in a statement. "We continue to see strong demand for our SUVs, and our increasingly diverse product lineup will continue this momentum as we enter into the summer months."

Porsche Cars North America Inc. reported April U.S. sales of 5,570 -- a monthly retail record -- and a 0.7 percent gain over April 2017. Retail sales for January through April rose 7 percent to 19,524 vehicles.

"The Porsche mix of two- and four-door sports cars is getting a broad welcome from customers," Porsche Cars North America CEO Klaus Zellmer said in a statement. "We see this in the strong April demand that crosses model lines."

April growth leaders were the 718 Cayman, up 67 percent year-over-year, and the Macan, which gained 33 percent from April 2017.

Total U.S. luxury sales dipped 2.2 percent in April, excluding Cadillac's results. And for the year, deliveries of luxury brands are up 1.3 percent, excluding Cadillac. General Motors is now releasing quarterly U.S. sales results, rather than monthly, for Cadillac and its other core brands, Chevrolet, GMC and Buick.

Overall, the luxury market is outperforming the total U.S. light-vehicle market, which slipped an estimated 4.8 percent in April but is up 0.2 percent year to date.

carguy420

Great off the line acceleration and overtaking performance plus great fuel economy will help Toyota get even more supporters. Time to get rid of the sluggish acceleration found on the Pruis/Prius C.

And as for Gazoo Racing, THS-R please.

There are rumors of sport models with 250hp 1.6l 3cl turbo engine... I dont think it will be a hybrid (not a full one anyway).

spwolf

There are rumors of sport models with 250hp 1.6l 3cl turbo engine... I dont think it will be a hybrid (not a full one anyway).

That sounds quite interesting, I've never heard of it before.