Lexus Remains Uncommitted to Plug-In Hybrid Technology

GNS

I found this:

Great find! I can't believe that Lexus didn't do much to advertise such a sophisticated awd system in the IS and GS.

Does the new Toyota Crown use the same system?

Note: the article I copied from says 20F/80R for the torque split but I believe it's actually 30F/70R.

The IS' AWD system is one of the reasons why I'm so interested in one. It appears to have been around for a long time so I'm sure the kinks have been worked out.

I also like that it's full time and not a clutch-only (ie. haldex) system. Using those planetary gears to apportion a default torque split also means that the clutch isn't under as much stress. I think that makes the system more predictable, and the clutch should last a very long time because I don't think the majority of driving scenarios require it to go 50F/50R.

Any speculation as to whether the 2020 4Runner refresh will receive an updated 1GR, a la 1GR-FKS, instead of the 2GR-FKS the Tacoma received, along with a 6AT or 8AT? Or do we anticipate carryover powertrains from the existing combinations of the current 4Runner 1GR-FE+5AT/Tacoma 2GR-FKS+6AT for MY2020, until the complete remodel in MY2023?

baysta

Any speculation as to whether the 2020 4Runner refresh will receive an updated 1GR, a la 1GR-FKS, instead of the 2GR-FKS the Tacoma received, along with a 6AT or 8AT? Or do we anticipate carryover powertrains from the existing combinations of the current 4Runner 1GR-FE+5AT/Tacoma 2GR-FKS+6AT for MY2020, until the complete remodel in MY2023?

There's no point for them to develop a 1GR-FKS because there's no other vehicle to use it.

baysta

Any speculation as to whether the 2020 4Runner refresh will receive an updated 1GR, a la 1GR-FKS, instead of the 2GR-FKS the Tacoma received, along with a 6AT or 8AT? Or do we anticipate carryover powertrains from the existing combinations of the current 4Runner 1GR-FE+5AT/Tacoma 2GR-FKS+6AT for MY2020, until the complete remodel in MY2023?

If I had to put money on it, bet on a 2GR-FKS and an 8sp Auto for the refreshed 4runner and Tacoma for 2020. The 1GR was a dedicated truck variant of the GR series and its torque curve will definatley be missed. As for future powertrains in 2023, our first clue will be what they throw in the 2020 highlander due out in a few months. A new corporate 2.4 turbo (A25A-FTS ?) may be the eventual GR replacement based on leaked 2020 IS350 specs.

3RZ

If I had to put money on it, bet on a 2GR-FKS and an 8sp Auto for the refreshed 4runner and Tacoma for 2020. The 1GR was a dedicated truck variant of the GR series and its torque curve will definatley be missed. As for future powertrains in 2023, our first clue will be what they throw in the 2020 highlander due out in a few months. A new corporate 2.4 turbo (A25A-FTS ?) may be the eventual GR replacement based on leaked 2020 IS350 specs.

If that's the case, I hope the 8AT will fix some of the issues Taco owners have had about the 2GR-FKS+6AT gearing/power curve to make it a worthy upgrade, maybe an update to the engine itself would be nice as well, although I don't know what they could or would do to make it less anemic. It sucks that truck engines are getting smaller and relying on forced induction for power. I guess I'll have to leave a modernized 1GR in my dreams.

In any case, has a powertrain update been at least been tentatively confirmed for the vehicles being refreshed for MY2020(4Runner, Tacoma, etc.)?

TNGA1.5L engine will produce in Guangzhou and Tianjin next year（2020.07）。The code for GTE is M15C。This inline 3-cylinder Gasoline Engine will take place of 8NR-FTS。
It will be equiped on corolla and levin in China。
a website from gte：https://www.gtec.com.cn/pcwz/pcww/xwzx_pc/qydt_pc/2018a/20181105/detail-3350.shtml

shizhi

TNGA1.5L engine will produce in Guangzhou and Tianjin next year（2020.07）。The code for GTE is M15C。This inline 3-cylinder Gasoline Engine will take place of 8NR-FTS
It will be equiped on corolla and levin in China。
a website from gte：https://www.gtec.com.cn/pcwz/pcww/xwzx_pc/qydt_pc/2018a/20181105/detail-3350.shtml

If M20C is a Chinese-market variant of the M20A 2-liter, 4-cylinder naturally-aspirated engine, then it follows that M15C (if it's a 3-cylinder engine as shizhi and other rumors reported here suggest) is essentially 3/4 of the M20C, with the same bore x stroke in each roughly 500cc cylinder.

M15C and M20C are only the prefix of the engine codes. We would need to know the suffix to get the complete picture of these engines' specifications. Thus far, M20C (China) and M20A (rest of the world) have been revealed in FKS (gas-only, naturally aspirated) and FXS (gasoline-electric hybrid) guises. Would we, at some point, see an M20A or M20C-FTS as a true, more direct replacement for the 8NR-FTS? Or if a turbocharged M15A or M15C-FTS would indeed be powerful enough to replace 8NR-FTS - a 2-liter, 4-cylinder turbocharged engine - then would there also eventually be FKS (gas-only, naturally aspirated) and FXS (gasoline-electric hybrid) versions of the M15C for those more focused on fuel economy?

baysta

If that's the case, I hope the 8AT will fix some of the issues Taco owners have had about the 2GR-FKS+6AT gearing/power curve to make it a worthy upgrade, maybe an update to the engine itself would be nice as well, although I don't know what they could or would do to make it less anemic. It sucks that truck engines are getting smaller and relying on forced induction for power. I guess I'll have to leave a modernized 1GR in my dreams.

In any case, has a powertrain update been at least been tentatively confirmed for the vehicles being refreshed for MY2020(4Runner, Tacoma, etc.)?

Nothing is confirmed except for apple car play but its highly likely we'll see an updated transmission. A shorter 1st gear would do wonders for the Tacoma and a 8 speed will definitely give them the flexibility to do that.

This is the first time M15C codename is revealed as the official name of the TNGA 1.5.

I guess under the new nomenclature rules, the letter prefix states the cylinder dimension? M15 is basically 3/4 of the M20, so it makes sense. If they scaled it to eight cylinder, it would then be called M40 (doubtful, since I don't think their 4.0 performance engine will share the very undersquare design of the regular 500 cc/cylinder engines).

As for the second letter:
'A' currently means international models of both the hybrid and gasoline engine, including the A25A-FKS used in GAC-Toyota Camry. If I understand it correctly, the FAW-Toyota Avalon will also use the A25A.
'B' is ChDM hybrid engine, now applying to the A25B-FXS. Here it includes both imported and locally-produced hybrid engines.
'C' is ChDM gasoline engine, applying to the M20C/M15C-FKS.

Before the dynamic force era, Toyota China already uses different numerical prefix (such as '7GR' instead of '2GR') for mechanically identical engines.

Note that they are still preserving a capacity of 108k NRs per year. At this point it is not clear whether the M15C directly replaces the dirt cheap 1NR/2NR or the 8NR. The M15C will be close to the turbocharged 8NR in capabilities, but a significant step (and possibly an overkill) above the 1NR/2NR.

Joaquin Ruhi

If M20C is a Chinese-market variant of the M20A 2-liter, 4-cylinder naturally-aspirated engine, then it follows that M15C (if it's a 3-cylinder engine as shizhi and other rumors reported here suggest) is essentially 3/4 of the M20C, with the same bore x stroke in each roughly 500cc cylinder.

M15C and M20C are only the prefix of the engine codes. We would need to know the suffix to get the complete picture of these engines' specifications. Thus far, M20C (China) and M20A (rest of the world) have been revealed in FKS (gas-only, naturally aspirated) and FXS (gasoline-electric hybrid) guises. Would we, at some point, see an M20A or M20C-FTS as a true, more direct replacement for the 8NR-FTS? Or if a turbocharged M15A or M15C-FTS would indeed be powerful enough to replace 8NR-FTS - a 2-liter, 4-cylinder turbocharged engine - then would there also eventually be FKS (gas-only, naturally aspirated) and FXS (gasoline-electric hybrid) versions of the M15C for those more focused on fuel economy?

no turbo version for m15c in China（information come from 张文川，a staff of tmec），M15C-FKS instead of 8NR-FTS。
M20C-FKS will take place of 6AR-FSE，equiped on camry/avalon 2.0L this year late…
View attachment 3113 View attachment 3114

ssun30

This is the first time M15C codename is revealed as the official name of the TNGA 1.5.

I guess under the new nomenclature rules, the letter prefix states the cylinder dimension? M15 is basically 3/4 of the M20, so it makes sense. If they scaled it to eight cylinder, it would then be called M40 (doubtful, since I don't think their 4.0 performance engine will share the very undersquare design of the regular 500 cc/cylinder engines).

As for the second letter:
'A' currently means international models of both the hybrid and gasoline engine, including the A25A-FKS used in GAC-Toyota Camry. If I understand it correctly, the FAW-Toyota Avalon will also use the A25A.
'B' is ChDM hybrid engine, now applying to the A25B-FXS. Here it includes both imported and locally-produced hybrid engines.
'C' is ChDM gasoline engine, applying to the M20C/M15C-FKS.

Before the dynamic force era, Toyota China already uses different numerical prefix (such as '7GR' instead of '2GR') for mechanically identical engines.

Note that they are still preserving a capacity of 108k NRs per year. At this point it is not clear whether the M15C directly replaces the dirt cheap 1NR/2NR or the 8NR. The M15C will be close to the turbocharged 8NR in capabilities, but a significant step (and possibly an overkill) above the 1NR/2NR.

GTE do not produce 8NR/9NR，it is faw's project…
FAW will also produce m15 in Tianjin……
http://www.teda.gov.cn/hjbhj/contents/2938/264782.html
本项目建成后，建设规模为年生产TNGA1.5L（M15）发动机10.8万台，同时1.2T发动机（9NR）每年的产能削减10.8万台，第二工厂的产能不发生变化。

shizhi

GTE do not produce 8NR/9NR，it is faw's project…

I don't understand what you are saying. So GTE does not produce the 8NR/9NR-FTS for the Levin, and instead source the engine from FAW? They also don't produce the 6NR/7NR for the Yaris L? I don't think your statement is true.

Also, this is the first time I hear of 9NR. Seems that it's only a minor update of the 8NR for the MY2018 Corolla/Levin. The actual '9'NR project was a 1.4T engine according to 张文川 but it was cancelled three years ago to shift resources to Dynamic Force.

shizhi

no turbo version for m15c in China（information come from 张文川，a staff of tmec），M15C-FKS instead of 8NR-FTS。
M20C-FKS will take place of 6AR-FSE，equiped on camry/avalon 2.0L this year late…

I am surprised 张文川 posted all these information to the public. I haven't been reading his zhihu articles since last September.

To all those unfamiliar with what we are talking about, Wenchuan Zhang (张文川) is the insider I have been talking about before who shared all the juicy information on Toyota powertrains since a while ago. He is a senior engineer at TMEC mostly developing hybrid vehicle powertrains. He also worked on mapping calibration on numerous notable engines including the 6AR-FSE, 8NR-FTS, all the NR/ZR variants for SEA markets, and most importantly the A25A. I trust this guy since he said if what he posts on the internet were either illegal or fake, he would have lost his job three years ago.

Here's a translation for the info on that document he posted.

Combined weight of the M15C motor: 84.5 kg.
Combined weight of block and cylinder head: 26.1 kg.
Weight of all other components: 58.4 kg.
Displacement: 1490 cc.
Layout: Inline-3, transversely mounted.
Combustion chamber geometry: pent-roof.
Peak Power/Torque: 87 kw (117 hp)/146 N.m (108 lb-ft). Note this is slightly lower specific power and torque than the M20 it derives from.
Valvetrain: VVT-iW on intake/VVT-i on exhaust
The rest should be pretty straightforward.

Below it also mentioned that the ChDM Corolla will receive a 9-inch infotainment screen along with panoramic camera. The bird-view camera is a popular ChDM feature even in really cheap cars since apparently chinese drivers are not confident with their parking skills (we also have pretty clumsy training on parking in driving schools)

Let's thank shizhi again for confirming that the M20C will replace the 6AR and M15C will replace the 8NR.

Also, the apparent lack of a turbo M15C is comforting since that means we won't see an Inline-3 in a Lexus at least in the short term.

ssun30

I don't understand what you are saying. So GTE does not produce the 8NR/9NR-FTS for the Levin, and instead source the engine from FAW? They also don't produce the 6NR/7NR for the Yaris L? I don't think your statement is true.

Also, this is the first time I hear of 9NR. Seems that it's only a minor update of the 8NR for the MY2018 Corolla/Levin. The actual '9'NR project was a 1.4T engine according to 张文川 but it was cancelled three years ago to shift resources to Dynamic Force.



I am surprised 张文川 posted all these information to the public. I haven't been reading his zhihu articles since last September.

To all those unfamiliar with what we are talking about, Wenchuan Zhang (张文川) is the insider I have been talking about before who shared all the juicy information on Toyota powertrains since a while ago. He is a senior engineer at TMEC mostly developing hybrid vehicle powertrains. He also worked on mapping calibration on numerous notable engines including the 6AR-FSE, 8NR-FTS, all the NR/ZR variants for SEA markets, and most importantly the A25A. I trust this guy since he said if what he posts on the internet were either illegal or fake, he would have lost his job three years ago.

Here's a translation for the info on that document he posted.

Combined weight of the M15C motor: 84.5 kg.
Combined weight of block and cylinder head: 26.1 kg.
Weight of all other components: 58.4 kg.
Displacement: 1490 cc.
Layout: Inline-3, transversely mounted.
Combustion chamber geometry: pent-roof.
Peak Power/Torque: 87 kw (117 hp)/146 N.m (108 lb-ft). Note this is slightly lower specific power and torque than the M20 it derives from.
Valvetrain: VVT-iW on intake/VVT-i on exhaust
The rest should be pretty straightforward.

Below it also mentioned that the ChDM Corolla will receive a 9-inch infotainment screen along with panoramic camera. The bird-view camera is a popular ChDM feature even in really cheap cars since apparently chinese drivers are not confident with their parking skills (we also have pretty clumsy training on parking in driving schools)

Let's thank shizhi again for confirming that the M20C will replace the 6AR and M15C will replace the 8NR.

The two tables above are not provided by “Zhang Wenchuan”. The two tables are from the public “Project Environmental Impact Report”. J
Wenchuan Zhang's Weibo ID "sabercon", in a comment to others, said "the TNGA1.5L engine will not have a turbo version"
9NR is the model code of the 1.2T engine produced by FAW Toyota.
The NR model produced by the GAC Toyota engine (GTE) is a a naturally aspirated (N/A) model for yaris and vios.
The 1.2T engines produced in China are all from FAW Toyota engines.
the confirmation information that 6AR will replaces of M20C, from the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology of China, regarding the upcoming new car information (open), the November information includes "Camry with M20C".
View attachment 3116
View attachment 3115

ssun30

Here's a translation for the info on that document he posted.

Combined weight of the M15C motor: 84.5 kg.
Combined weight of block and cylinder head: 26.1 kg.
Weight of all other components: 58.4 kg.
Displacement: 1490 cc.
Layout: Inline-3, transversely mounted.
Combustion chamber geometry: pent-roof.
Peak Power/Torque: 87 kw (117 hp)/146 N.m (108 lb-ft). Note this is slightly lower specific power and torque than the M20 it derives from.
Valvetrain: VVT-iW on intake/VVT-i on exhaust
The rest should be pretty straightforward.

Among the numbers in that document is 80.5 x 97.6 mm, which has to be Bore x Stroke. Those numbers, by the way, are identical to those of the M20A 2-liter 4 from the U.S. Corolla Hatchback and Lexus UX 200, further affirming that M15 is M20 minus one cylinder.

But why is the specific output of the M15C lower than the M20A?

shizhi

I think your Chinese may be pretty good. so I will write all those things in chinese.

I am Chinese so no worries there. But one of the internet manners is that on an English forum, use English and if you have to post long paragraphs of your native language, ask the moderator @krew first. If he doesn't like it you can always PM me to translate it for you.

我是中国人，但一般来说英语论坛上不太欢迎发大段的外语，所以你最好征求下管理员的同意。
张工的知乎和微博好久没关注过了，之前因为他对电动汽车一些比较过激的言论取关过。。。

carguy420

But why is the specific output of the M15C lower than the M20A?

We'll know when we see rpm information.

The M20 is a very hard revving engine. Won't be surprised if the I3 needs lower rpm due to inherent balance problems.

ssun30

I am Chinese so no worries there. But one of the internet manners is that on an English forum, use English and if you have to post long paragraphs of your native language, ask the moderator @krew first. If he doesn't like it you can always PM me to translate it for you.

我是中国人，但一般来说英语论坛上不太欢迎发大段的外语，所以你最好征求下管理员的同意。
张工的知乎和微博好久没关注过了，之前因为他对电动汽车一些比较过激的言论取关过。。。

no more information about toyota china now,if there will be more,i will PM you

3RZ

If I had to put money on it, bet on a 2GR-FKS and an 8sp Auto for the refreshed 4runner and Tacoma for 2020.

I'm still hoping for a NA V35-FKS, even if it seems unlikely. Again, undersquare torque would help a lot to make it feel more trucky.

Is there any new information or release on new engines?

Any updates on the v8? or tt V8?

Im sorry, I have been a lurker for some time. Just looking forward to the next engine series for the Landcruiser

MKIVCrybaby

Is there any new information or release on new engines?

Any updates on the v8? or tt V8?

Im sorry, I have been a lurker for some time. Just looking forward to the next engine series for the Landcruiser

Welcome aboard, officially :)

Rumors point to the Land Cruiser and LX getting the V35A-FTS, and I'm hearing that will be this year in yet another refresh. I assume we should know more around July/August.

We're getting a redesigned BOF product in a little less than 2 years (maybe you guys can guess what). ;) Engine configurations are not 100% yet but it could be a variety of things.

shizhi

no more information about toyota china now,if there will be more,i will PM you

please do post any info you find, as always.. it is much appreciated and we can always use translator :)

as to the M15C, sounds pretty good for NA 1.5l... it should be cheaper for them than 1.2t but more expensive than 1.5l NR in Yaris, due to the use of D4/S.
I hope European Corolla and new Yaris get it as well, it will be nice engine for them... 1.5l ESTEC engine in Yaris is already very good.

and yeah, of course it will be significantly slower than 1.2t that not only has 30% more torque, it probably has 2x more at 1500 rpm. But it will be cheaper and good entry point engine, unlike relics they used to use for their base engines before.

https://carbuzz.com/news/lexus-says-future-models-won-t-lose-that-sweet-v8-howl

The 2UR-GSE plus hybrid system?

carguy420

https://carbuzz.com/news/lexus-says-future-models-won-t-lose-that-sweet-v8-howl

The 2UR-GSE plus hybrid system?

new V8, not UR.

TTV8?

What ever happened to the suppose inline 6 toyota was developing? Or the diesel engine that may enter US markets?

MKIVCrybaby

TTV8?

What ever happened to the suppose inline 6 toyota was developing? Or the diesel engine that may enter US markets?

Where did you hear that? I haven't heard either of those rumors.