Lexus Remains Uncommitted to Plug-In Hybrid Technology

Posted by Kevin on January 31st, 2019

Autocar spoke with a source inside Lexus about the possibility of plug-in hybrids:

Lexus will be able to adapt many of its hybrid powertrains to feature plug-in tech “relatively easily” if the market demands it, according to a source at the firm. The Japanese maker is convinced that its self-charging hybrid system is perfectly placed to take advantage of the Europe-wide shift away from diesel, but accepts that PHEVs are likely to play a greater role in the future.

In a way, this seems almost too obvious — Toyota has already developed a plug-in hybrid powertrain for the Prius Prime, and reworking the technology for other models takes no great imagination.

But it begs the question, if adapting the tech is so easy, why hasn’t it been done already? Why are Toyota (and by extension, Lexus) lukewarm on plug-in hybrids? PHEVs may be a stop-gap between hybrids and pure-electric vehicles, but it’s an attractive option for people wanting the benefits of battery power while keeping the safety net of gasoline engines.

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S
I doubt the research spent on the LS-FC is wasted though. After all integrating an electric powertrain is easier than a conventional powertrain involving ICEs, as long as your base platform is designed to accomodate eletrification (which is true for TNGA). So I don't think the actual engineering effort involved in this program is even comparable to, say, the hypothetical LS-F.

Now I actually feel much better that they are cancelling White Elephant projects like the LS-FC. There is just no demand for such a vehicle, and what 'halo effect' can it achieve anyway? The money is much better spent on actual fuel cell/battery/autonomous driving development.

We know TMC will not back out of their FCV effort especially considering they got China on their boat. Li's visit to Toyota's Mirai factory resulted in a significant rethinking of China's EV policy and Abe's subsequent visit materialized into an agreement to align their future EV policies.

It's not about the accountants. Politics are just as important for EVs as the engineering aspect, if not more.

But anyway we know that the focus has now shifted to commercial vehicles, which should be the direction they should have went in the first place.
T
Still no official word on the 6 blank engines in the original post? They did say over the course of 3 years early this year, and the 2019 models are out. I guess they'll start hyping something early next year for the 2020 models.
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TheNerdyPotato
Still no official word on the 6 blank engines in the original post? They did say over the course of 3 years early this year, and the 2019 models are out. I guess they'll start hyping something early next year for the 2020 models.
Highlander next year will debut at least two powertrains including the bigger hybrid and the bigger turbo 4. Plus a 1.5L base engine has more or less been confirmed for next year on an unknown vehicle with a probable codename of 710B.
C
ssun30
Highlander next year will debut at least two powertrains including the bigger hybrid and the bigger turbo 4. Plus a 1.5L base engine has more or less been confirmed for next year on an unknown vehicle with a probable codename of 710B.
A hybrid bigger than the current 2.5L?

The 1.5L is probably for the next generation Yaris/Vios.
T
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1120195_toyota-to-keen-to-add-trd-treatment-awd-across-lineup

AWD all things? I wouldn't complain. Do that, and give some engine options. The article above mentions the possibility of a Corolla TRD that would act as a Civic SI fighter, but I honestly think that is optimistic. Toyota may build a chassis that's on-par, but the powertrain won't have the same oomph.

In other news, I read that the 2020 Corolla sedan in the US will still have the 1.8l 2ZR as the base engine while the SE/XSE trims will get the 2.0l M20A upgrade. MT versions will have active rev matching. There's a 1.8l hybrid version, too, with a quoted 50MPG.
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TheNerdyPotato
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1120195_toyota-to-keen-to-add-trd-treatment-awd-across-lineup

AWD all things? I wouldn't complain. Do that, and give some engine options. The article above mentions the possibility of a Corolla TRD that would act as a Civic SI fighter, but I honestly think that is optimistic. Toyota may build a chassis that's on-par, but the powertrain won't have the same oomph.

In other news, I read that the 2020 Corolla sedan in the US will still have the 1.8l 2ZR as the base engine while the SE/XSE trims will get the 2.0l M20A upgrade. MT versions will have active rev matching. There's a 1.8l hybrid version, too, with a quoted 50MPG.
we have been talking about this for 6 months now... Camry, Avalon and ES getting AWD soon, 6 months? Corolla and CHR will get GRMN treatment, with 1.6l 3cl turbo and 240-260hp. Rumors but slowly getting credible.
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spwolf
Rumors but slowly getting credible.
Exactly my thoughts and why I posted that article.
S
TheNerdyPotato
Exactly my thoughts and why I posted that article.
i think only question is if they will arrive in the USA... and it seems they actually might.
S
I'm increasingly doubtful about the '1.6 turbo 3 for Corolla GR' rumor. First, we know one of the rumored '1.6L TNGA engine' does not exist (it's a refreshed 1ZR-FAE). Second, we know the naturally-aspirated engine below the M20A is definitely a 1.5L. So by logic any turbo I3 should also have a 1.5L displacement. That brings to my final point: Toyota seems to be aiming at 90% of the average specific output and BMEP of turbo engines in the industry, 90kW/L and 22.5bar respectively, to maintain the reliability record of their turbo engines. The only exception would be the LC-F's 600hp+ V8. A 1.5T inline-3 would make 180hp/270Nm in this case. 250hp is very overstressed for a 1.5 which is definitely something Toyota will try to avoid: nobody even builds a 1.5T I3 that powerful! In fact this engine will be more stressed than the V8TT and the latter has much better inherent balance plus all the strengthening a supercar engine receives.
The Corolla GR will either receive a 8AR, or a turbo M20A if it wants 250+hp. I will be really surprised if Toyota does build a 1.6T I3 that powerful.
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ssun30
I'm increasingly doubtful about the '1.6 turbo 3 for Corolla GR' rumor. First, we know one of the rumored '1.6L TNGA engine' does not exist (it's a refreshed 1ZR-FAE). Second, we know the naturally-aspirated engine below the M20A is definitely a 1.5L. So by logic any turbo I3 should also have a 1.5L displacement. That brings to my final point: Toyota seems to be aiming at 90% of the average specific output and BMEP of turbo engines in the industry, 90kW/L and 22.5bar respectively, to maintain the reliability record of their turbo engines. The only exception would be the LC-F's 600hp+ V8. A 1.5T inline-3 would make 180hp/270Nm in this case. 250hp is very overstressed for a 1.5 which is definitely something Toyota will try to avoid: nobody even builds a 1.5T I3 that powerful! In fact this engine will be more stressed than the V8TT and the latter has much better inherent balance plus all the strengthening a supercar engine receives.
The Corolla GR will either receive a 8AR, or a turbo M20A if it wants 250+hp. I will be really surprised if Toyota does build a 1.6T I3 that powerful.
yeah... still a lot of engines are missing, that ZR wont be included.

I dont mind ZR engine, new 1.5 NR ESTEC is Yaris is great, all my Toyota buddies are proud of it. I wish they add 1.6l ZR to the Corolla Hatch as well.
S
^^I wouldn't mind the 1ZR and 2ZR either. The ones that I drove before are adequate for their size. Valvematic really comes alive past 4000 rpm using manual mode (auto mode on the CVT sucks though). I would only worry about owning a 3ZR because you know, 2007 materials technology plus a very long stroke.
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ssun30
^^I wouldn't mind the 1ZR and 2ZR either. The ones that I drove before are adequate for their size. Valvematic really comes alive past 4000 rpm using manual mode (auto mode on the CVT sucks though). I would only worry about owning a 3ZR because you know, 2007 materials technology plus a very long stroke.
as long as they can significantly lower consumption compared to last Auris 1.6l I had from 2009, it would be great as base.
I know their prices for UK are $1500-$2000 more than before.
Will1991
Toyota seems to be lacking some innovation, even behind Hyundai/KIA as it seems they managed to build an FCEV SUV with higher range and about the same price for the Mirai ( https://insideevs.com/hyundais-hydrogen-nexo-suv-priced/ ), they seem to be stuck on NiMH batteries ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...xation-clear-from-supplier-with-no-ev-battery ) and end up saying the only reason they don't have any BEV are the dealers ( https://insideevs.com/toyota-no-ev-because-it-wont-sell/ ).
Not even on FCEV's they are managing to stay ahead...
Ian Schmidt
In their defense, it's not clear FCEVs are the solution for consumer transportation, sticking with NiMH until solid-state batteries come out is an excellent way to avoid the sort of bad publicity Teslas get on a fairly regular basis for trying to barbecue their drivers, and outside of Norway and China nobody's buying any EVs that aren't Teslas yet.
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Will1991
Toyota seems to be lacking some innovation, even behind Hyundai/KIA as it seems they managed to build an FCEV SUV with higher range and about the same price for the Mirai ( https://insideevs.com/hyundais-hydrogen-nexo-suv-priced/ ), they seem to be stuck on NiMH batteries ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...xation-clear-from-supplier-with-no-ev-battery ) and end up saying the only reason they don't have any BEV are the dealers ( https://insideevs.com/toyota-no-ev-because-it-wont-sell/ ).
Not even on FCEV's they are managing to stay ahead...
death of Toyota.


p.s. they are moving to lions for cheaper hybrids now due to lower price, keeping nimh for more expensive hybrids. And they will sell 2m hybrids next year, more than everyone else combined and multiplied by some large number

:)
DFGeneer
Will1991
Toyota seems to be lacking some innovation, even behind Hyundai/KIA as it seems they managed to build an FCEV SUV with higher range and about the same price for the Mirai ( https://insideevs.com/hyundais-hydrogen-nexo-suv-priced/ ), they seem to be stuck on NiMH batteries ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...xation-clear-from-supplier-with-no-ev-battery ) and end up saying the only reason they don't have any BEV are the dealers ( https://insideevs.com/toyota-no-ev-because-it-wont-sell/ ).
Not even on FCEV's they are managing to stay ahead...
You should google for "Innovations in Solid State Battery 2018".
The result will surprise you.
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spwolf
death of Toyota.


p.s. they are moving to lions for cheaper hybrids now due to lower price, keeping nimh for more expensive hybrids. And they will sell 2m hybrids next year, more than everyone else combined and multiplied by some large number

:)
Camry Hybrid base model is now on li-ion because of less weight, possibly lower cost. The higher trims are heavier to begin with so the weight penalty is less pronounced.
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TheNerdyPotato
Camry Hybrid base model is now on li-ion because of less weight, possibly lower cost. The higher trims are heavier to begin with so the weight penalty is less pronounced.
it is lower cost... they are starting to put lions into cheaper vehicles, and keeping nimh to more expensive ones due to the cost reasons. With Prius, it would be now on pretty massive scale as it sells 350k units per year.
S
Will1991
Toyota seems to be lacking some innovation, even behind Hyundai/KIA as it seems they managed to build an FCEV SUV with higher range and about the same price for the Mirai ( https://insideevs.com/hyundais-hydrogen-nexo-suv-priced/ ), they seem to be stuck on NiMH batteries ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...xation-clear-from-supplier-with-no-ev-battery ) and end up saying the only reason they don't have any BEV are the dealers ( https://insideevs.com/toyota-no-ev-because-it-wont-sell/ ).
Not even on FCEV's they are managing to stay ahead...
All EV sites are inherently anti-Toyota because it doesn't make a BEV. These sites denounce Toyota at every opportunity possible even though it is the world's biggest maker of electrified cars, period. Plus they will downplay whatever problems Tesla and Co. have in their current BEVs.

As for FCVs, it's good to see them NOT trying to build a fuel cell passenger vehicle as they should have started with commercial vehicles in the first place.

I used to be a harsh critic of Toyota's strategy of using Li-ion only on a limited range of vehicles. Now I appreciate the decision somewhat more since they more or less waited and see if their Li-ion packs can catch fire. And just one battery on fire is the worst PR nightmare for any car maker. Now three years later no Li-ion equipped Prius, Prius Prime, or Camry Hybrid LE has been reported to spontaneously catch fire due to battery problems (while Tesla has a track record of at least two battery fires a year). I think that's what really gave TMC the confidence to give the green light on Li-ions in the future.

What really bugs me is their decision to build NiMH packs for hybrids in China. There is no logical reason to build the more expensive NiMH when China has the lowest materials cost for Li-ion. If there is any market where they could completely switch to Li-ion it should be China just for cost savings alone.
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ssun30
What really bugs me is their decision to build NiMH packs for hybrids in China. There is no logical reason to build the more expensive NiMH when China has the lowest materials cost for Li-ion. If there is any market where they could completely switch to Li-ion it should be China just for cost savings alone.
they consider them better overall and hence are willing to pay premium for them vs lions.
Will1991
This one (NiMH as a better alternative) was quite a surprise for me, but now I clearly understand a lot of sales decisions... Even with Li-ion returning a better fuel consumption....
S
Will1991
This one (NiMH as a better alternative) was quite a surprise for me, but now I clearly understand a lot of sales decisions... Even with Li-ion returning a better fuel consumption....
lion's do not return better fuel consumption... it is just that in some cars they were put in cheaper models without much equipment so less weight overall (not just battery, but also equipment cut) made it enough to post better numbers. They were also put into cheaper models because they are cheaper to produce for Toyota, as we see now with Lexus staying on nimh while cheaper Toyota models move to lion.

I guess putting cheaper lion's instead of nimh is not going to be a problem for Toyota, because market perceives them as better.

I wonder where the new 500k li-ion batteries are coming from though, as it does seem that from 2019 they will start doing at least 500k per year in li-ion batteries and still about the same 1.5m of nimh.
peterharvey
TMC has confused me.
How is the older NiMH tech better than the new Lions?
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peterharvey
TMC has confused me.
How is the older NiMH tech better than the new Lions?
That's what spwolf wants you to believe.

No NiMH is not superior to Li-ion. The only advantage is safety (though that alone is a good reason against Li-ion). In every other criteria it is worse than Li-ion period, including durability.

And Li-ion does improve efficiency not only because it saves weight, but also because Li-ion packs have lower impedance. Individual cells are comparable, but Li-ion packs use 1/3 the number of cells to achieve same voltage. This is also the reason why Li-ion is cheaper despite being more expensive on a single cell basis.

Lexus switched to Li-ion pack for their flagship hybrid system. Go figure why.
C
Even though quite a few Teslas haved catch on fire they don't seem to suffer from any PR headaches, also their horrible build quality and their misleading "Autopilot" which is partially responsible for all those crashes.
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ssun30
That's what spwolf wants you to believe.

No NiMH is not superior to Li-ion.
I dont sell nimh batteries, i dont want anyone to believe anything :)

I am just repeating what TMC has said recently on why are they putting li-ion batteries into cheaper vehicles, and yes it is likely because of safety and likely few other things they believe... they basically admitted li-ions are cheaper for them than nimh and that is why they are putting them into cheaper vehicles. And it does jive with the fact that previously they put them in barebone versions of hybrids.

As to the other reasons, we will likely keep finding them out in various interviews with TMC engineers next year, like we do now. Lots of hybrids being introduced, lots of possibilities for interviews.
I
ssun30
That's what spwolf wants you to believe.

No NiMH is not superior to Li-ion. The only advantage is safety (though that alone is a good reason against Li-ion). In every other criteria it is worse than Li-ion period, including durability.

And Li-ion does improve efficiency not only because it saves weight, but also because Li-ion packs have lower impedance. Individual cells are comparable, but Li-ion packs use 1/3 the number of cells to achieve same voltage. This is also the reason why Li-ion is cheaper despite being more expensive on a single cell basis.

Lexus switched to Li-ion pack for their flagship hybrid system. Go figure why.
Regardless of what anyone might believe, Toyota uses NiMH for a reason.
They use NIMH on Century which just blows any Lexus.
Lion doesn't make 500h faster than
GS450h. It's not really more efficient in real life.
Also you don't want to be near the 500h when the charger blows air to low the battery temp. It is that painful!
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isanatori
Toyota uses NiMH for a reason.
That's what I said. Read my post again.
C
Does anyone know how the awd system in the IS and GS works?
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carguy420
Does anyone know how the awd system in the IS and GS works?
I found this:

On the AWD models they use a full-time transfer differential.This transfer uses a planetary gear type limited slip center differential. A wet type multi-disc clutch is used as the center differential limiting device, and the silent chain is used for transferring driving force to the front wheels.This transfer also adopts the AWD control system. Based on driving conditions, this system optimally distributes driving force to the front and rear wheels. Distribution of the driving force is done by electronic control of the center differential limiting device.

So when driving on a smooth dry road you will have about 80% power to rear and 20% to front.

When you get into low traction the system can divide power up to 50/50 between front and rear.

The system also uses the traction control and ABS to keep traction, so let's say for example you get onto ice or mud, if one wheel is slipping not only will the transfer differential split power 50/50 but the car will also use the brakes to control wheel slip, so brake force is applied to the slipping wheels a needed to keep traction on the wheels that can grab. So basically, you can keep your foot on the gas in low traction control and the car will do what it needs to do in order to move. The throttle is also electronic on this car, so if needed to get traction the engine output is reduced. It is really interesting to experiment with these cars in low traction, I once got onto an icy hill with one of these, I felt a wheel try to slip, I floored the gas pedal and then car did all the work, the engine stayed at about 2,000 rpm as the abs cycled to switch power to the gripping wheels and the car slowly climbed the hill at about 5 mph.

G