Lexus Remains Uncommitted to Plug-In Hybrid Technology

Posted by Kevin on January 31st, 2019

Autocar spoke with a source inside Lexus about the possibility of plug-in hybrids:

Lexus will be able to adapt many of its hybrid powertrains to feature plug-in tech “relatively easily” if the market demands it, according to a source at the firm. The Japanese maker is convinced that its self-charging hybrid system is perfectly placed to take advantage of the Europe-wide shift away from diesel, but accepts that PHEVs are likely to play a greater role in the future.

In a way, this seems almost too obvious — Toyota has already developed a plug-in hybrid powertrain for the Prius Prime, and reworking the technology for other models takes no great imagination.

But it begs the question, if adapting the tech is so easy, why hasn’t it been done already? Why are Toyota (and by extension, Lexus) lukewarm on plug-in hybrids? PHEVs may be a stop-gap between hybrids and pure-electric vehicles, but it’s an attractive option for people wanting the benefits of battery power while keeping the safety net of gasoline engines.

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ssun30
I should've said that way instead. 'Rejects' sounds like a lot of negativity while 'spec' is how the military grade gets separated from the consumer grade.

For the V6 diesel.
1)is it going to be a global engine? Are they introducing it for traditionally non-diesel markets as well?
2)is it being counted as part of the TNGA powertrain?

Also, since I'm less familiar with trucks in other parts of the world, here are two questions regarding truck engines:
1)what exactly is the weakness of the VD? whar makes them think it is necesary to do a new engine from scratch instead of keeping development of the VD?
2)what do Taco owners say about the 2GR-FKS? do they think it's a worthy upgrade over the 1GR? what is the possibility of the 4Runner and GX refresh replacing the 4.0 with 3.5?
- specification - yes, there were always different specifications for Land Cruisers... we in EU dont need dual fuel filters, dual fuel tanks, desert dust protection and things like that... instead we get air suspension and other nice things. It specification and vehicles are built on it.
- V6 diesel will certainly be a global engine and will be made to follow strictest future emission regulations. VD was developed based on AD diesel engine, now more than 10 years old. It was a bad engine, probably one of the worst Toyota has ever made, and it can not meet emissions regulations. New GD for Prado can meet any future legislation it seems, it has no problems meeting all these new EU regulations, and they have no problems validating it against WLTP, unlike Germans which seem to have halted sales of many of their powertrains until validation (EU).
- Taco owners never liked new 2GR-FKS. It is hard to say what is valid criticism, as you know people on Toyota boards criticize everything, lol. Based on that, Taco is dead... instead it is best selling generation, they are doubling their sales since last gen. They will not replace 4.0l with 3.5l though.... if this new V6 td is coming, then it will be upgrade option.
Gecko
From what I have heard, 2GR-FKS + 8AT is coming to refreshed 4R and Tacoma. This will go over very poorly with enthusiasts, but to @spwolf's point, they complain about the 1GR as it is, so... you can't please everyone.

I have driven the Tacoma and I actually like the powertrain. It's somewhat hard to separate elements of the powertrain (engine vs transmission), but owning a 4Runner and having a lot of seat time in the Tacoma, I prefer the 1GR because it's torquier and has more grunt in stop-and-go traffic. But I'd gladly take the 6AT from the Tacoma, or better yet, an 8AT. 1GR mated to a 6 or 8AT would be great, but I think that for packaging purposes, 4Runner will just get 2GR-FKS and enthusiasts will be mad.

I will probably take it for a spin next year and see if I want to upgrade or not.
S
Gecko
From what I have heard, 2GR-FKS + 8AT is coming to refreshed 4R and Tacoma. This will go over very poorly with enthusiasts, but to @spwolf's point, they complain about the 1GR as it is, so... you can't please everyone.

I have driven the Tacoma and I actually like the powertrain. It's somewhat hard to separate elements of the powertrain (engine vs transmission), but owning a 4Runner and having a lot of seat time in the Tacoma, I prefer the 1GR because it's torquier and has more grunt in stop-and-go traffic. But I'd gladly take the 6AT from the Tacoma, or better yet, an 8AT. 1GR mated to a 6 or 8AT would be great, but I think that for packaging purposes, 4Runner will just get 2GR-FKS and enthusiasts will be mad.

I will probably take it for a spin next year and see if I want to upgrade or not.
you probably remember better, but did 2GR in new Tacoma bring better real life mpg compared to 1GR?
Gecko
spwolf
you probably remember better, but did 2GR in new Tacoma bring better real life mpg compared to 1GR?
Indeed - about 1-1.5MPG on average.
S
Gecko
Indeed - about 1-1.5MPG on average.
do we know how it compares to other similar trucks real life mpg?
Gecko
spwolf
do we know how it compares to other similar trucks real life mpg?
The only real competition here is the Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon, both packing a 3.6L V6. Compared to those, the Tacoma is similar with ~19MPG on average. I haven't seen anything on the new Ranger, but I think it's packing only Ecoboost 4cylinder engines?

Nissan Frontier is ~17 - 17.5MPG, similar to old 1GR Tacoma.
S
Gecko
The only real competition here is the Chevrolet Colorado and GMC Canyon, both packing a 3.6L V6. Compared to those, the Tacoma is similar with ~19MPG on average. I haven't seen anything on the new Ranger, but I think it's packing only Ecoboost 4cylinder engines?

Nissan Frontier is ~17 - 17.5MPG, similar to old 1GR Tacoma.

seems reasonable then
B
Gecko
From what I have heard, 2GR-FKS + 8AT is coming to refreshed 4R and Tacoma. This will go over very poorly with enthusiasts, but to @spwolf's point, they complain about the 1GR as it is, so... you can't please everyone.

I have driven the Tacoma and I actually like the powertrain. It's somewhat hard to separate elements of the powertrain (engine vs transmission), but owning a 4Runner and having a lot of seat time in the Tacoma, I prefer the 1GR because it's torquier and has more grunt in stop-and-go traffic. But I'd gladly take the 6AT from the Tacoma, or better yet, an 8AT. 1GR mated to a 6 or 8AT would be great, but I think that for packaging purposes, 4Runner will just get 2GR-FKS and enthusiasts will be mad.

I will probably take it for a spin next year and see if I want to upgrade or not.
From reading various feedback on the new Tacoma, doesnt it seem most of the negative reviews stem from the 6 speed transmission ( tuning of it)? If this is the case, perhaps the newer 8AT will solve this. Wishful thinking perhaps:)
S
Brandon briesath
From reading various feedback on the new Tacoma, doesnt it seem most of the negative reviews stem from the 6 speed transmission ( tuning of it)? If this is the case, perhaps the newer 8AT will solve this. Wishful thinking perhaps:)
supposedly there were some updates to the transmission ecu that fixed all those issues, in the past 2 months or so.
B
spwolf
supposedly there were some updates to the transmission ecu that fixed all those issues, in the past 2 months or so.
Good to know, I had not heard.
CIF
  • CIF
    CIF
  • September 21, 2018
Just some future information here, don't expect Toyota or Lexus to go wild with EV models worldwide. Internally Toyota is still not convinced on the EV hype, and that translating to enough real world buyers. EV models will definitely be offered, but not on a massive worldwide scale. Hybrids will still be a huge part, and the main electrification strategy going forward with Toyota and Lexus models. Even if they're plug-ins, they'll still be hybrids and not pure EVs.

Also hydrogen will become a huge part of Toyota and Lexus in the farther future. Many people doubt this, but internally ToMoCo (and other major automakers) wants this to happen and Toyota will push very hard for this to happen.
C
What is roughly the 0-100 km/h performance of the new Camry hybrid?
CIF
  • CIF
    CIF
  • September 24, 2018
carguy420
What is roughly the 0-100 km/h performance of the new Camry hybrid?
7.4-7.9 seconds, depending on the reviews that you read. So averaged out, it's roughly mid 7 seconds 0-60 time. Note: these times are for 0-60 (mph) so 0-100 km/h times will be a fraction slower.
C
I seriously hope Toyota puts more emphasis on the performance of their engines and transmissions.

For example, I've heard people complain about the hybrid and V6 powertains in the new Camry, Avalon and ES, saying their performance feels neutered by the tuning of the engine and transmission.
F1 Silver Arrows
carguy420
I seriously hope Toyota puts more emphasis on the performance of their engines and transmissions.

For example, I've heard people complain about the hybrid and V6 powertains in the new Camry, Avalon and ES, saying their performance feels neutered by the tuning of the engine and transmission.
Yup. Back in the mid-2000's Toyota and Lexus had cars that went as fast, or even faster than current cars go today, and that's because they're focusing on fuel economy in sacrifice of performance. It has to do with the tuning of the transmission (long gear ratios) and the engine as well (engine is asleep until 4000 RPM for V6 vehicles). It has also to do with how they are configurating their engines to primarily be in Atkinson Cycle then under strenuous performance it will change to the Otto Cycle. Net result of this are cars that are pretty anemic and sleepy. In order for the driver to get any satisfactory performance you would have to wring the neck of the car for that to happen.

An infamous example are cars that have the Lexus 5.0L V8. In any application (except IS F), there has always been complaints that the gearing was too long (Toyota and Lexus' attempt to be fuel efficient with a gas guzzling engine), but on the other hand the shifts are stupidly fast (like dual-clutch level).
S
carguy420
I seriously hope Toyota puts more emphasis on the performance of their engines and transmissions.

For example, I've heard people complain about the hybrid and V6 powertains in the new Camry, Avalon and ES, saying their performance feels neutered by the tuning of the engine and transmission.
i have pretty much every review that exists for ES and I have never saw anyone complain about it... are you talking about complains from people on other forums or reviewers and people who actually drove the car?

Same goes for Avalon and Camry... Camry had a TSB for improving transmission earlier this year or late last one, i forgot.
S
I couldn't imagine how would anyone complain about the V6. The V6 Camry/Avalon/ES are all traction limited because fwd and the engine actually overpowers the cars, since 2006. Having a more 'performance-oriented tune' wouldn't do any good because the bottleneck here is traction (which will be solved by AWD).

I can understand the complain about the new hybrid though. Way too soft on the tuning. But I guess the eCVT needs to 'learn' the driver as well?
S
ssun30
I couldn't imagine how would anyone complain about the V6. The V6 Camry/Avalon/ES are all traction limited because fwd and the engine actually overpowers the cars, since 2006. Having a more 'performance-oriented tune' wouldn't do any good because the bottleneck here is traction (which will be solved by AWD).

I can understand the complain about the new hybrid though. Way too soft on the tuning. But I guess the eCVT needs to 'learn' the driver as well?
nobody real is complaining about either... it is just forum trolls on other forums.
C
I didn't realise the Camry has a TSB for it's transmission, my bad.
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carguy420
I didn't realise the Camry has a TSB for it's transmission, my bad.
yeah, and it was also in pre-production ES... but in production ES, I have only seen all the reviews praise the powertrain, both of them.
C
ssun30
I couldn't imagine how would anyone complain about the V6. The V6 Camry/Avalon/ES are all traction limited because fwd and the engine actually overpowers the cars, since 2006. Having a more 'performance-oriented tune' wouldn't do any good because the bottleneck here is traction (which will be solved by AWD).

I can understand the complain about the new hybrid though. Way too soft on the tuning. But I guess the eCVT needs to 'learn' the driver as well?
Will they offer AWD for the Camry/Avalon/ES once the RAV4 and its Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system official go on sale?

I saw a video on YouTube where they test the Camry Hybrid's acceleration, it seemed to accelerate quite well all the way to 180 km/h, it's from Japan though and ignore the fact that its 0-100km/h time is based on the speedometer.
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carguy420
Will they offer AWD for the Camry/Avalon/ES once the RAV4 and its Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system official go on sale?

I saw a video on YouTube where they test the Camry Hybrid's acceleration, it seemed to accelerate quite well all the way to 180 km/h, it's from Japan though and ignore the fact that its 0-100km/h time is based on the speedometer.
we dont know what type of AWD is coming into all these vehicles, but they should start arriving in 2019.

I dont think it has anything to do with Rav4 introduction.
S
@ssun30 ping - best car came out with info about Prius MMC and it has li-ion batteries on all models... interesting since Prius sells around 100k in Japan alone, and likely around 300k around the world... it seems they will significantly increase their li-ion battery production next year.

It is coming soon, December 2018.

https://bestcarweb.jp/news/newcar/44432
S
^^The plan to expand Li-ion production was announced back in March along with plans to expand HV battery (NiMH) production in China, as well as setting up a new HV plant in Thailand. So it seems that they are moving NiMH production out of Japan and focus on Li-ion at their mainland plant. Also, it's good to see Toyota is NOT sourcing batteries from some cheap third-party OEM in China for their PHVs.

Sad to see the Mark X gone! Wish the FWD Mark X is not true.
C
Wouldn't a FWD Mark X basically be a Camry reskin?

I'm eager to see what hybrid vehicles are in the pipeline and really hope Toyota starts using more Li-ion batteries instead of the long in the tooth NiMH batteries.
S
carguy420
Wouldn't a FWD Mark X basically be a Camry reskin?

I'm eager to see what hybrid vehicles are in the pipeline and really hope Toyota starts using more Li-ion batteries instead of the long in the tooth NiMH batteries.
They are not sold on Li-ion yet. They keep NiMH for HVs because it has good enough performance, and is much safer than Li-ion. NiMH cells are self-limiting, meaning overheating will stop them from discharging. Li-ion is the opposite: once it overheats, it catches fire due to thermal runaway and is basically impossible to put out other than cooling it and wait. So they are using Japan as a testing ground for Li-ion. After all, the Japanese press is much easier to handle than the western media.

The biggest downside of NiMH for HVs is cost. Li-ion packs are cheaper to manufacture because fewer cells and supporting components are required.
C
I didn't know that's the reason, sorry for my ignorance.
S
ssun30
^^The plan to expand Li-ion production was announced back in March along with plans to expand HV battery (NiMH) production in China, as well as setting up a new HV plant in Thailand. So it seems that they are moving NiMH production out of Japan and focus on Li-ion at their mainland plant. Also, it's good to see Toyota is NOT sourcing batteries from some cheap third-party OEM in China for their PHVs.

Sad to see the Mark X gone! Wish the FWD Mark X is not true.

yeah, but not moving, rather expanding as you said above... they are now limited by production for their hybrids, they need to increase their hybrid components by 100% in next 3 years max.... they sell 1.5m today worldwide and they plan to do around 3m in 2021:

To bridge the gap, the battery manufacturer is expanding aggressively. By 2021, it plans to ramp up capacity in Japan to near 2.5 million packs a year. It will also double China production to about 210,000 packs annually when a second factory comes on line in 2020.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...xation-clear-from-supplier-with-no-ev-battery


IMHO it has to mean large cost reductions that will bring the prices down, otherwise they would not be able to sell 3m hybirds in 2021 up from maybe 1.6m-1.7m in 2018. They are already offering hybrids on most of their models in Europe, Japan, China and NA, so for sales to double, it means prices will be more competitive.

For instance, C-HR hybrid around here is $5k more expensive than 1.2t, which is really a huge difference... so this will likely go down to 2.5k or something for sales to double.
Joaquin Ruhi
ssun30
Sad to see the Mark X gone! Wish the FWD Mark X is not true.
carguy420
Wouldn't a FWD Mark X basically be a Camry reskin?
A FWD Mark X would, most likely, be a rebadge of the latest Avalon.

Also worth noting is that "the Mark X gone" refers to China, where (as the Reiz) it went out of production exactly a year ago. The Mark X is still produced and sold in new Toyota dealerships in Japan.
S
Joaquin Ruhi
A FWD Mark X would, most likely, be a rebadge of the latest Avalon.

Also worth noting is that "the Mark X gone" refers to China, where (as the Reiz) it went out of production exactly a year ago. The Mark X is still produced and sold in new Toyota dealerships in Japan.
unfortunately rumors are only that Mark X is on special order these days and nothing about new model... Avalon is too big for Japan.

S