Lexus Remains Uncommitted to Plug-In Hybrid Technology

Posted by Kevin on January 31st, 2019

Autocar spoke with a source inside Lexus about the possibility of plug-in hybrids:

Lexus will be able to adapt many of its hybrid powertrains to feature plug-in tech “relatively easily” if the market demands it, according to a source at the firm. The Japanese maker is convinced that its self-charging hybrid system is perfectly placed to take advantage of the Europe-wide shift away from diesel, but accepts that PHEVs are likely to play a greater role in the future.

In a way, this seems almost too obvious — Toyota has already developed a plug-in hybrid powertrain for the Prius Prime, and reworking the technology for other models takes no great imagination.

But it begs the question, if adapting the tech is so easy, why hasn’t it been done already? Why are Toyota (and by extension, Lexus) lukewarm on plug-in hybrids? PHEVs may be a stop-gap between hybrids and pure-electric vehicles, but it’s an attractive option for people wanting the benefits of battery power while keeping the safety net of gasoline engines.

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C
But the site just says "1.6l petrol engine", no other details at all and Toyota didn't officially announce it as a new Dynamic Force engine.
Joaquin Ruhi
carguy420
But the site just says "1.6l petrol engine", no other details at all and Toyota didn't officially announce it as a new Dynamic Force engine.
True, but I'll bet anything that it's the unidentified Dynamic Force engine that sits just below the M20A. I strongly suspect that it's naturally aspirated. Hopefully, we'll know the answers on October 2.
C
Joaquin Ruhi
True, but I'll bet anything that it's the unidentified Dynamic Force engine that sits just below the M20A. I strongly suspect that it's naturally aspirated. Hopefully, we'll know the answers on October 2.
Yep, I'm interested. I actually want this engine to be available in their upcoming TNGA subcompacts, I know slightly wishful thinking.
M
Joaquin Ruhi
True, but I'll bet anything that it's the unidentified Dynamic Force engine that sits just below the M20A. I strongly suspect that it's naturally aspirated. Hopefully, we'll know the answers on October 2.
What is happening on October 2nd?
S
Joaquin Ruhi
True, but I'll bet anything that it's the unidentified Dynamic Force engine that sits just below the M20A. I strongly suspect that it's naturally aspirated. Hopefully, we'll know the answers on October 2.
October 2nd is Corolla Touring Sports (wagon) reveal on Paris show... it will not have 1.6l option pretty much for sure. I hope it will because 1.2t is very expensive engine and NA 1.6l in same vein as excellent 1.5l they released for Yaris is great. In non EU countries there is Auris 1.6l with older ZR Valvematic engine and it is $1.5k cheaper than 1.2t version... it is a lot for a car that starts at $20k. Lots of buyers just want base engine that does not spend much fuel and is good around city.

On the other hand Corolla sedan, is not going to have Euro specific version, so it will come with 1.6l petrol and 1.8l hybrid. Corolla Sport/Touring Sports will be Euro centered and have 1.2t, 1.8l hybrid and 2.0l hybrid.
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carguy420
Yep, I'm interested. I actually want this engine to be available in their upcoming TNGA subcompacts, I know slightly wishful thinking.
I think TNGA subcompacts will get than 1.5l NR that was released last year, it is a cracking engine, low consumption and decent power, it is very nice in Yaris and great replacement for 1.33.
C
spwolf
I think TNGA subcompacts will get than 1.5l NR that was released last year, it is a cracking engine, low consumption and decent power, it is very nice in Yaris and great replacement for 1.33.
But is the 1.5l 2NR with the ESTEC package currently only available in Europe? Because the 2NR in southeast Asia doesn't have it. Does the ESTEC package give it a decent improvement?

Edit : I hoped that the TNGA subcompacts can get the 1.6l as an option is because the Koreans are offering 1.6l engines in their subcompacts.
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carguy420
But is the 1.5l 2NR with the ESTEC package currently only available in Europe? Because the 2NR in southeast Asia doesn't have it. Does the ESTEC package give it a decent improvement?

Edit : I hoped that the TNGA subcompacts can get the 1.6l as an option is because the Koreans are offering 1.6l engines in their subcompacts.
Yes, it is good engine... very low consumption, good driving characteristics. It is only available since last euro Yaris facelift last year and I assume reason it is not available everywhere in this form might be both quality of fuel and price of the engine.
S
spwolf
- New hybrid vehicle unveil on September 3rd for Europe. Toyota France announced new factory expansion for next-gen Yaris and new model. I assume it is smaller than C-HR SUV, based on next gen Yaris platform. It might also introduce new smaller hybrid system as well as that new 1.6l?
Today news came out that Toyota has registered trademark for Corolla Cross. This would be likely version for that "4th new hybrid this year" that Toyota Ireland talked to journalists about. So no Yaris based SUV/CUV, yet? :)

https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news...-may-be-on-the-way-after-trademark-filed.html
Joaquin Ruhi
spwolf
So no Yaris based SUV/CUV, yet? :)
I don't see why Corolla Cross and a future Yaris-based CUV should be mutually exclusive. Like the AutoGuide article said, Corolla Cross would probably be nothing more than a Corolla Hatchback and/or Touring Sports wagon with a lifted suspension, faux skid plates and black plastic baby cladding to compete with Subaru Crosstrek, VW Golf Alltrak and Ford Focus Active (the sole surviving Focus for North America), among others.

As spwolf noted earlier in this thread:
spwolf
Toyota France announced new factory expansion for next-gen Yaris and new model. I assume it is smaller than C-HR SUV, based on next gen Yaris platform.
Rumors of a Yaris-based "baby RAV4 or C-HR" to be built in the Valenciennes plant France have been around for years. What better time to announce (or reemphasize) this than the upcoming Paris Motor Show?
S
Joaquin Ruhi
I don't see why Corolla Cross and a future Yaris-based CUV should be mutually exclusive.
They are not, but they specifically noted how it is going to revealed in next few days... so that will likely be Corolla Cross.

While Yaris CUV will be revealed in December or closer to new Yaris launch.

They already mentioned that plant will build another model next to Yaris.
Joaquin Ruhi
I have a gut feeling that the Paris Show will unveil something related to the TNGA-B platform, which is almost as overdue and delayed as the body-on-frame TNGA-F. It may be a concept foreshadowing either the next-gen Yaris or the new B-segment CUV.
S
Joaquin Ruhi
I have a gut feeling that the Paris Show will unveil something related to the TNGA-B platform, which is almost as overdue and delayed as the body-on-frame TNGA-F. It may be a concept foreshadowing either the next-gen Yaris or the new B-segment CUV.
maybe in Geneva? They just facelifted Yaris again last year. So late 2019 is something possible.

But keep in mind that for Toyota Europe, Yaris is the best selling vehicle. They will not want to announce it year early like what Toyota USA does. For Europe, it would kill the sales.
Joaquin Ruhi
spwolf
maybe in Geneva? They just facelifted Yaris again last year. So late 2019 is something possible.

But keep in mind that for Toyota Europe, Yaris is the best selling vehicle. They will not want to announce it year early like what Toyota USA does. For Europe, it would kill the sales.
You're right, given the early 2017 second facelift for Yaris3, the Paris show would be too soon for unveiling the production version of Yaris4. That's why I said "something" and "a concept", not necessarily the production version.

Another, more remote possibility just occurred to me: with the Verso gone and the Prius+/v ancient and outdated, will a successor to the 3-row Prius be in the cards? Or will Toyota simply walk away from this segment?
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Joaquin Ruhi
You're right, given the early 2017 second facelift for Yaris3, the Paris show would be too soon for unveiling the production version of Yaris4. That's why I said "something" and "a concept", not necessarily the production version.

Another, more remote possibility just occurred to me: with the Verso gone and the Prius+/v ancient and outdated, will a successor to the 3-row Prius be in the cards? Or will Toyota simply walk away from this segment?
It seems they are pushing Prius+ in Europe still on purpose so I would guess new one is coming. And that one can be sold worldwide, vs old Verso.

There were also those pics of Prius SUV... quite possibly Prius SUV could have 3 rows, like Verso had in the past. With lower ground clearance than Rav4, it makes more sense.
S
Their 1.5L engine has stayed at 80kW since 2002 with only minor efficiency gains and I guess better torque curve. I know 80kW is still plenty for EU, Japan, and SEA. China is the only market where the 1.5 has become underpowered. But competitors have all moved to the 100kW class for subcompacts. Hope the 1.6DF for subcompacts is true. After all the 8NR can be expensive with that turbo and this segment needs NA to be competitive in price.
S
ssun30
Their 1.5L engine has stayed at 80kW since 2002 with only minor efficiency gains and I guess better torque curve. I know 80kW is still plenty for EU, Japan, and SEA. China is the only market where the 1.5 has become underpowered. But competitors have all moved to the 100kW class for subcompacts. Hope the 1.6DF for subcompacts is true. After all the 8NR can be expensive with that turbo and this segment needs NA to be competitive in price.
it is new 1.5 NR that first appeared in Toyota India's vehicles and then got ESTEC version in 2017. Torque distribution is all that matters, high output NA engines are usually not that good at all... like their 1.6l Valvematic with 132hp was not significantly faster than old 110hp 1.6l.
C
ssun30
Their 1.5L engine has stayed at 80kW since 2002 with only minor efficiency gains and I guess better torque curve. I know 80kW is still plenty for EU, Japan, and SEA. China is the only market where the 1.5 has become underpowered. But competitors have all moved to the 100kW class for subcompacts. Hope the 1.6DF for subcompacts is true. After all the 8NR can be expensive with that turbo and this segment needs NA to be competitive in price.
On the street, my 1996 Corolla sedan with the 1.6l 4A-FE still pulls harder than my 2006 Vios with the 1.5l 1NZ-FE, both automatics. I find it strange that the Japanese car manufacturers move away from 1.6l engines in their subcompacts and use 1.5l engines instead. It's not like there's a huge difference in price and fuel economy but the extra performance is definitely a nice upgrade.
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carguy420
On the street, my 1996 Corolla sedan with the 1.6l 4A-FE still pulls harder than my 2006 Vios with the 1.5l 1NZ-FE, both automatics. I find it strange that the Japanese car manufacturers move away from 1.6l engines in their subcompacts and use 1.5l engines instead. It's not like there's a huge difference in price and fuel economy but the extra performance is definitely a nice upgrade.
Tax reasons. In fact it's a surprise rumor says new motor is 1.6 not 1.5.
C
ssun30
Tax reasons. In fact it's a surprise rumor says new motor is 1.6 not 1.5.
In Japan or China or both? In my country 1.4l, 1.5l and 1.6l are under the same tax bracket.
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carguy420
In Japan or China or both? In my country 1.4l, 1.5l and 1.6l are under the same tax bracket.
Japan and Hong Kong (and other SEA regions I suppose).

For locally produced cars displacement doesn't matter anymore in China.
S
ssun30
Tax reasons. In fact it's a surprise rumor says new motor is 1.6 not 1.5.
they always had different engine for Corolla... i guess different priorities? Otherwise by itself 1.5 vs 1.6l there is no large difference in torque/hp.

I guess 1.6l will be base engine for many future vehicles, and have that turbo version as well. I dont think we will get new 1.8l anymore.
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carguy420
On the street, my 1996 Corolla sedan with the 1.6l 4A-FE still pulls harder than my 2006 Vios with the 1.5l 1NZ-FE, both automatics. I find it strange that the Japanese car manufacturers move away from 1.6l engines in their subcompacts and use 1.5l engines instead. It's not like there's a huge difference in price and fuel economy but the extra performance is definitely a nice upgrade.
that likely has to do with many other things, not 1.5l vs 1.6l.. like engine series itself, transmission, tuning, etc.
krew
Lexus Vehicle Lineup to be Fully Electrified by 2025

[​IMG]

Equation includes hybrids.
View the original article post
GSCT
Good to know - Lexus was in real danger of over reliance on hybrids (IMO) and ceding leadership to other luxury brands. Bring on the all electric IS please.
Gecko
GSCT
Good to know - Lexus was in real danger of over reliance on hybrids (IMO) and ceding leadership to other luxury brands. Bring on the all electric IS please.
^Did you read the article? This seems to be another marketing/PR spin as Lexus thinks of their hybrids as plugless electric cars.
T
Joaquin Ruhi
I have a gut feeling that the Paris Show will unveil something related to the TNGA-B platform
I hadn't heard of that version before. I'm guessing you made it up based it off of the old B platform that underpins various subcompact models? It makes sense that they would use that nomenclature.
M
GSCT
Good to know - Lexus was in real danger of over reliance on hybrids (IMO) and ceding leadership to other luxury brands. Bring on the all electric IS please.
Lexus is so far away from pure EV model that nothing looks promising at all
Joaquin Ruhi
TheNerdyPotato
I hadn't heard of that version before. I'm guessing you made it up based it off of the old B platform that underpins various subcompact models? It makes sense that they would use that nomenclature.
The second-smallest TNGA architecture has been referred to as TNGA-B. Like TNGA-F (for body-on-frame trucks and SUVs), TNGA-B appears to be behind schedule. Its main/lead vehicle is the 4th-gen successor to the present "Euro" Yaris / Japanese Vitz. The second facelift it received for the 2018 model year is ample evidence of the 3rd-gen's extended/overstretched life cycle. The Vios sedan and Sienta mini-minivan are the only other current Toyotas that share the outgoing "B" platform.
C
Toyota has already unveiled the Corolla hatchback and the wagon version, but why is the sedan taking such a long time?

C