Lexus Remains Uncommitted to Plug-In Hybrid Technology

spwolf

here is the list of "new" powertrains. Keep in mind - 9 new engines and 17 variations. What we know is that there will be V8TT for F models, then 2.4 or 2.5l turbo for GR replacement (non us?) and that is about it... Missing from the list:
- One V8 engine - between 420hp of V6tt and 620hp of V8tt
- 2.4/2.5l turbo replacement for GR
- between 2.5l and 2.0l engine - 1.6 turbo?
- 2 smaller than 2.0l engines.

- hybrid between 215hp 4cly and V6
- small hybrid - replacement for 1.5l

Powertrains that are just updated are not on that list.

But they will most likely release updated engines that aren't on the list, correct?

MOBLIN

But they will most likely release updated engines that aren't on the list, correct?

Updated engines list so far:
- 1.0 3cly updated this year in Aygo MMC
- 1.5l ESTEC new engine last year in Yaris MMC
- 1.2t updated this year in Auris FMC
- 2.0t ?
- 3.5l GR ?

Keep in mind that the whole point of new powertrains is less different engines, more production efficiency and transferring those savings into more expensive engines going into the smaller vehicles.

For instance old Corolla 1.8l vs new Corolla 2.0l - both engine and cvt should be considerably more expensive to produce compared to the ones they replaced yet price of the vehicle did not increase accordingly.

spwolf

Updated engines list so far:
- 1.0 3cly updated this year in Aygo MMC
- 1.5l ESTEC new engine last year in Yaris MMC
- 1.2t updated this year in Auris FMC
- 2.0t ?
- 3.5l GR ?

Keep in mind that the whole point of new powertrains is less different engines, more production efficiency and transferring those savings into more expensive engines going into the smaller vehicles.

For instance old Corolla 1.8l vs new Corolla 2.0l - both engine and cvt should be considerably more expensive to produce compared to the ones they replaced yet price of the vehicle did not increase accordingly.

Right. Honestly, I am just super nervous about what their V8 plans are. I don't care about having the most ponies or pound feet, I just want something reliable. I love the 3UR-FE and am hoping they can improve on that without the need for forced induction.

spwolf

Small changes to output, responsiveness and efficiency are always possible for turbo engines, and were often done for Toyota turbo diesels.

For significantly bigger output, i expect that 1.6l turbo... depending on the market of course.

I would like to have that 1.6l turbo. Probably around 180 hp?

carguy420

I would like to have that 1.6l turbo. Probably around 180 hp?

It will probably be an I3. Think twice.

ssun30

It will probably be an I3. Think twice.

Seriously a 3 cylinder? It's gonna need a balance shaft. So over 200 hp?

ssun30

It will probably be an I3. Think twice.

it will be interesting to see what it becomes of it. 1.6l 3cl 220-240hp seems unreal compared to their other powertrains.

spwolf

it will be interesting to see what it becomes of it. 1.6l 3cl 220-240hp seems unreal compared to their other powertrains.

If it's for let's say a hot hatch, that power level would make sense.

Off topic question, but are TNGA cars heavier than their previous generation?

carguy420

Off topic question, but are TNGA cars heavier than their previous generation?

No. Generally they're lighter because they did some cost sharing of high quality and expensive materials throughout the lineup. Notably, they were able to reduce weight in the Toyota and Lexus lineup by using more composite materials.

F1 Silver Arrows

No. Generally they're lighter because they did some cost sharing of high quality and expensive materials throughout the lineup. Notably, they were able to reduce weight in the Toyota and Lexus lineup by using more composite materials.

Not always. A quick trip through Google says the 2019 Corolla hatchback (TNGA-C) should be 30-60lb heavier than the 2017 iM hatchback. They're the same external dimensions, give or take an inch. I also have no idea about the quality of the interior.

carguy420

Off topic question, but are TNGA cars heavier than their previous generation?

It depends.

Prius: roughly the same
Corolla Hatch: +62 lbs
Camry: -150 lbs
Avalon: roughly the same

ES: +78 lbs
LS: +474 lbs (over LS 460L)

No previous model for comparison if you're looking at LC or CH-R.

Toyota has released some info to the media in Ireland...
- 2019 Corolla will have 1.6l petrol engine for Europe, together with hybrid from Prius of course. This is first time I have heard of 1.6l in TNGA vehicles, so it is likely to be all new?
- New hybrid vehicle unveil on September 3rd for Europe. Toyota France announced new factory expansion for next-gen Yaris and new model. I assume it is smaller than C-HR SUV, based on next gen Yaris platform. It might also introduce new smaller hybrid system as well as that new 1.6l?

spwolf

Toyota has released some info to the media in Ireland...
- 2019 Corolla will have 1.6l petrol engine for Europe, together with hybrid from Prius of course. This is first time I have heard of 1.6l in TNGA vehicles, so it is likely to be all new?
- New hybrid vehicle unveil on September 3rd for Europe. Toyota France announced new factory expansion for next-gen Yaris and new model. I assume it is smaller than C-HR SUV, based on next gen Yaris platform. It might also introduce new smaller hybrid system as well as that new 1.6l?

Great info, and it makes sense. There are two mystery engines on the current TNGA diagram that are smaller in displacement than the M20A. So it is certainly quite possible that one of those engines might be an all new 1.6L Dynamic Force engine. There is also one mystery hybrid system on the diagram that is smaller that the current Prius 1.8L hybrid system.

CIF

Great info, and it makes sense. There are two mystery engines on the current TNGA diagram that are smaller in displacement than the M20A. So it certainly quite possible that one of those engines might be an all new 1.6L Dynamic Force engine. There is also one mystery hybrid system on the diagram that is smaller that the current Prius 1.8L hybrid system.

yeah, also remember rumors about 1.6l turbo? It might be based on same engine design.

As to the smaller hybrid, they talked about it many times before. Their current 1.5l is only old hybrid engine left, so obviously it will be renewed.

But that 1.6l is interesting in Corolla. It might end up being smaller version of that new M20A. Corolla in Europe is sold to fleets, currently it had 1.33l and 1.4 D4D engines. So cheapest ones.

And looking at that, I am pretty sure it wont be some crazy 1.6t high output engine.

Also - Auris Touring Sports will now have 100m longer wheelbase than Auris... basically like Avensis of old. I would guess that means that Corolla's wheelbase is growing too.

spwolf

yeah, also remember rumors about 1.6l turbo? It might be based on same engine design.

As to the smaller hybrid, they talked about it many times before. Their current 1.5l is only old hybrid engine left, so obviously it will be renewed.

But that 1.6l is interesting in Corolla. It might end up being smaller version of that new M20A. Corolla in Europe is sold to fleets, currently it had 1.33l and 1.4 D4D engines. So cheapest ones.

And looking at that, I am pretty sure it wont be some crazy 1.6t high output engine.

Also - Auris Touring Sports will now have 100m longer wheelbase than Auris... basically like Avensis of old. I would guess that means that Corolla's wheelbase is growing too.

Agreed, all of that makes sense. If you go through Toyota's TNGA technical documents and statements from engineers, Toyota will be reducing the base engine architectures to a bare minimum for TNGA and Dynamic Force. From there, the modular nature of TNGA and Dynamic Force will allow for different add-on technologies or different "seasoning" on the engines as Toyota puts it. So add-on technologies like turbos for instance.

Edit: I would also like to mention as a reminder that the current 1.8L hybrid system is also technically not a Dynamic Force system as it uses a ZR engine. The inclusion of it on the diagram continues to be puzzling.

I've just come across today some interesting information I overheard from a distant source.

Supposedly:

- By 2021, all of the engines on the new TNGA/Dynamic Force family diagram will be revealed
- the entire Dynamic Force engine family will comprise of 6 inline engines and 3 V engines

If true, there are some revelations here. That would mean the mystery engine between the A25A and V35A on the diagram will be an inline engine, and not a V engine. Will it be an inline 4, or could (shockingly) the BMW collaboration inline 6 engine end up appearing on the TNGA/Dynamic Force diagram? That would truly be shocking if that ended up being the case, as that would mean the supposed BMW collaboration inline 6 is almost entirely a Toyota design.

Also if true this would confirm the two mystery engines above the V35A are certainly V engines.

CIF

I've just come across today some interesting information I overheard from a distant source.

Supposedly:

- By 2021, all of the engines on the new TNGA/Dynamic Force family diagram will be revealed
- the entire Dynamic Force engine family will comprise of 6 inline engines and 3 V engines

If true, there are some revelations here. That would mean the mystery engine between the A25A and V35A on the diagram will be an inline engine, and not a V engine. Will it be an inline 4, or could (shockingly) the BMW collaboration inline 6 engine end up appearing on the TNGA/Dynamic Force diagram? That would truly be shocking if that ended up being the case, as that would mean the supposed BMW collaboration inline 6 is almost entirely a Toyota design.

Also if true this would confirm the two mystery engines above the V35A are certainly V engines.

it is going to be that rumored 2.4/2.5l turbo engine... and those 2 others are V8's.

From what I've read:

• the new "JZ" I6 that's being developed with BMW is exclusive to the Supra and won't be shared with any other Toyota applications.
• BMW turned over the basic architecture of their I6 and then Toyota has tweaked it to their liking, and it was agreed to be produced from cast iron.
• It sounds like BMW has done/provided the lion's share of the work with Toyota doing tuning tweaks.

spwolf

it is going to be that rumored 2.4/2.5l turbo engine... and those 2 others are V8's.

That engine will slot into the chart between the M20A and A25A. I was talking about the other mystery engine on the chart between the A25A and V35A that is bigger in displacement that the A25A.

CIF

That engine will slot into the chart between the M20A and A25A. I was talking about the other mystery engine on the chart between the A25A and V35A that is bigger in displacement that the A25A.

It could be either that the 2.5T is the bigger engine with an unannounced new 2.0T being the smaller one. Or, it could be a new NA 2.7 4cyl for the Tacoma. That thing is about as outdated as the 1UR in the Tundra.

TheNerdyPotato

It could be either that the 2.5T is the bigger engine with an unannounced new 2.0T being the smaller one. Or, it could be a new NA 2.7 4cyl for the Tacoma. That thing is about as outdated as the 1UR in the Tundra.

The chart clearly is sorted by displacement for the engines. Whether an engine has turbos or not is irrelevant to the chart. If the rumored engine ends up as a 2.5L, it makes zero sense for it to be listed as a separate engine on the chart. That would simply mean it's a turbo version of the A25A. If it's a 2.4L turbo, then that would be a separate engine from the A25A. Likewise a 2.0L turbo engine wouldn't make sense to be listed as a separate engine on the chart, because again that would simply be a turbo version of the M20A.

If you're implying Toyota would use different architectures for any supposed 2.5L turbo or 2.0L turbo then that doesn't not make sense at all and is contrary to the TNGA and Dynamic Force philosophy. Look at the chart carefully again. It confirms a total of 9 Dynamic Force engines, and 17 variants. A 2.5L turbo or new 2.0L turbo would be simply variants of already debuted Dynamic Force engines. Only a 2.4L turbo would be considered as a separate engine, since no 2.4L Dynamic Force engine has debuted.

So therefore, the only logical conclusion here is that all other yet to be revealed Dynamic Force engines on the chart MUST all be of different displacements to each other, and of different displacements to the Dynamic Force engines revealed so far. This is fundamental to TNGA and Dynamic Force philosophy.

TheNerdyPotato

It could be either that the 2.5T is the bigger engine with an unannounced new 2.0T being the smaller one. Or, it could be a new NA 2.7 4cyl for the Tacoma. That thing is about as outdated as the 1UR in the Tundra.

@CIF yeah, i also think 2.5t is that engine.

between 2.0l and 2.5l might be many different possibilities. I am not sure the chart does not show approximation based on hp, ie like 300h vs 250h.
And I am not sure if they will fit reworked 2.0t into that chart, I am thinking they wont.

CIF

So therefore, the only logical conclusion here is that all other yet to be revealed Dynamic Force engines on the chart MUST all be of different displacements to each other, and of different displacements to the Dynamic Force engines revealed so far. This is fundamental to TNGA and Dynamic Force philosophy.

I dont think chart itself and placement of engines are fundamental to TNGA and Dynamic Force philosophy. They can simply consider changes large enough to call it a different engine. Which is likely what is happening here.

spwolf

I dont think chart itself and placement of engines are fundamental to TNGA and Dynamic Force philosophy. They can simply consider changes large enough to call it a different engine. Which is likely what is happening here.

I don't have time to post all the links, but go through Toyota's Global newsroom and look at all the technical documents from Toyota's powertrain department. They very clearly outline the philosophy of Dynamic Force going in line with TNGA is less waste, less redundancy, more efficient use of resources and architectures, and more modularization. A slightly reworked A25A or slightly reworked M20A will not be considered a new engine. The technical documents from Toyota's powertrain department make it clear that Dynamic Force fundamentally comprises a number of base engine architectures (9 engines) and a number of variants stemming from those base architectures (17 variants). To save resources, all Dynamic Force engines use a common basic engine architecture philosophy but then each engine architecture gets a number of changes based on need. From there variants like turbocharged versions stem out. If a major reworking of the A25A or M20A includes a displacement change, well yes then that would be considered a different engine under the Dynamic Force family.

This would be like saying the 2GR-FKS should be named under a different engine family than the 2GR-FE or 2GR-FSE. These variants have a number of moderate changes inside of them, yet they are not major enough to be called a different engine family, they are all part of the same engine family.

This is Toyota's philosophy on TNGA and Dynamic Force. I know what I know because I've looked at all the public technical documents from the powertrain department. Whether you wish to believe this or not is up to you.

The chart itself is not fundamental, but there is a very logical order to the chart and what is or isn't considered a new Dynamic Force engine the chart makes fairly clear.

CIF

The chart clearly is sorted by displacement for the engines. Whether an engine has turbos or not is irrelevant to the chart. If the rumored engine ends up as a 2.5L, it makes zero sense for it to be listed as a separate engine on the chart. That would simply mean it's a turbo version of the A25A.

...Likewise a 2.0L turbo engine wouldn't make sense to be listed as a separate engine on the chart, because again that would simply be a turbo version of the M20A.

...Look at the chart carefully again. It confirms a total of 9 Dynamic Force engines, and 17 variants. A 2.5L turbo or new 2.0L turbo would be simply variants of already debuted Dynamic Force engines...

...A slightly reworked A25A or slightly reworked M20A will not be considered a new engine. The technical documents from Toyota's powertrain department make it clear that Dynamic Force fundamentally comprises a number of base engine architectures (9 engines) and a number of variants stemming from those base architectures (17 variants). To save resources, all Dynamic Force engines use a common basic engine architecture philosophy but then each engine architecture gets a number of changes based on need. From there variants like turbocharged versions stem out. If a major reworking of the A25A or M20A includes a displacement change, well yes then that would be considered a different engine under the Dynamic Force family.

This would be like saying the 2GR-FKS should be named under a different engine family than the 2GR-FE or 2GR-FSE. These variants have a number of moderate changes inside of them, yet they are not major enough to be called a different engine family, they are all part of the same engine family.

I wholeheartedly, 100% agree with this. VERY well said.

CIF

If it's a 2.4L turbo, then that would be a separate engine from the A25A...

Only a 2.4L turbo would be considered as a separate engine, since no 2.4L Dynamic Force engine has debuted.

Here, on the other hand, I might beg to differ. It so happens that the M20A, A25A and V35A Dynamic Force engines have, thus far, only been released in a single displacement. But what if the rumored 2.4-liter turbo is nothing more than a boosted version of the A25A with thicker cylinder liners (to better withstand the added pressures of turbocharging) that effectively reduce its displacement to 2.4-liters? Wouldn't it still be part of the AxxA engine family?

This happened with the 2nd-gen Audi A6, whose 2.8-liter naturally aspirated V6 was downsized slightly to a 2.7 when turbocharged.

CIF

I was talking about the other mystery engine on the chart between the A25A and V35A that is bigger in displacement that the A25A.

TheNerdyPotato

It could be a new NA 2.7 4cyl for the Tacoma. That thing is about as outdated as the 1UR in the Tundra.

I agree that a replacement for the ancient TR truck engine family (current offered in 1TR-FE 2-liter and 2TR-FE 2.7-liter guises) in most of Toyota's body-on-frame models worldwide is the likeliest engine to slot between the A25A and V35A engines.

As to the 2 yet-to-be-released engines above the V35A, I just don't see 2 separate V6 or V8 engine families. Currently, pre-Dynamic Force V6s are down to a single GR engine family (in displacements from 2.5 to 4 liters) and V8s to a single UR family (in displacements from 4.6 to 5.7 liters). My best guess for the two slots above the V35A V6 is a new Dynamic Force V8 family to replace UR and a Dynamic Force Diesel to replace the 1VD-FTV 4.5-liter diesel V8 in a number of Land Cruisers and Lexus LXs.

Yes, I know that Toyota is discontinuing the diesel option for its cars and crossovers, but there appears to be a need for a large diesel option for body-on-frame vehicles. Notably, the official TNGA/Dynamic Force Toyota news releases and documents (like CIF, I've read them all) are silent on the subject of a potential Dynamic Force diesel.

spwolf

Toyota has released some info to the media in Ireland...
- 2019 Corolla will have 1.6l petrol engine for Europe, together with hybrid from Prius of course. This is first time I have heard of 1.6l in TNGA vehicles, so it is likely to be all new?
- New hybrid vehicle unveil on September 3rd for Europe. Toyota France announced new factory expansion for next-gen Yaris and new model. I assume it is smaller than C-HR SUV, based on next gen Yaris platform. It might also introduce new smaller hybrid system as well as that new 1.6l?

Where did you find this sweet info? I'm searching high and low but still can't find anything.

Edit : Is the 1.6l for this Euro-spec Corolla naturally aspirated or turbocharged? No offence but I'm just too curious. :D

carguy420

Where did you find this sweet info? I'm searching high and low but still can't find anything.

search toyota corolla ireland, you will get it.

Joaquin Ruhi

I agree that a replacement for the ancient TR truck engine family (current offered in 1TR-FE 2-liter and 2TR-FE 2.7-liter guises) in most of Toyota's body-on-frame models worldwide is the likeliest engine to slot between the A25A and V35A engines.

As to the 2 yet-to-be-released engines above the V35A, I just don't see 2 separate V6 or V8 engine families. Currently, pre-Dynamic Force V6s are down to a single GR engine family (in displacements from 2.5 to 4 liters) and V8s to a single UR family (in displacements from 4.6 to 5.7 liters). My best guess for the two slots above the V35A V6 is a new Dynamic Force V8 family to replace UR and a Dynamic Force Diesel to replace the 1VD-FTV 4.5-liter diesel V8 in a number of Land Cruisers and Lexus LXs.

Yes, I know that Toyota is discontinuing the diesel option for its cars and crossovers, but there appears to be a need for a large diesel option for body-on-frame vehicles. Notably, the official TNGA/Dynamic Force Toyota news releases and documents (like CIF, I've read them all) are silent on the subject of a potential Dynamic Force diesel.

I would think variation of 2.5l would end up in those trucks. This is what they likely mean for variations - small changes to suit different vehicles. Like that 3.5tt for Land Cruiser 300. Keep in mind that Toyota called 8AR-FTS "new engine", not variation of AR block.

And I very much doubt there will be new V8 diesel, even Europeans are abandoning them and new one would be needed for those EU markets where Toyota V8 diesel sales are tiny, where regulations just got much tougher from 2019 and where Toyota just abandoned diesels in most of the classes. It will simply be much better Toyota to do a proper hybrid for trucks.

carguy420

Where did you find this sweet info? I'm searching high and low but still can't find anything.

spwolf

search toyota corolla ireland, you will get it.

What I did find this morning was a Toyota UK Media site release announcing the end of Auris badging for Europe in favor of Corolla, and the official unveiling of the Corolla Touring Sports wagon at the 2018 Paris Motor Show in an October 2 press conference. Not a word there about the new 1.6-liter petrol engine.

Following spwolf's advice did lead me to an Irish Times article citing the 1.6-liter petrol engine option.