Lexus Remains Uncommitted to Plug-In Hybrid Technology

Posted by Kevin on January 31st, 2019

Autocar spoke with a source inside Lexus about the possibility of plug-in hybrids:

Lexus will be able to adapt many of its hybrid powertrains to feature plug-in tech “relatively easily” if the market demands it, according to a source at the firm. The Japanese maker is convinced that its self-charging hybrid system is perfectly placed to take advantage of the Europe-wide shift away from diesel, but accepts that PHEVs are likely to play a greater role in the future.

In a way, this seems almost too obvious — Toyota has already developed a plug-in hybrid powertrain for the Prius Prime, and reworking the technology for other models takes no great imagination.

But it begs the question, if adapting the tech is so easy, why hasn’t it been done already? Why are Toyota (and by extension, Lexus) lukewarm on plug-in hybrids? PHEVs may be a stop-gap between hybrids and pure-electric vehicles, but it’s an attractive option for people wanting the benefits of battery power while keeping the safety net of gasoline engines.

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Comments
T
MOBLIN
It's funny, people complain about the mpg of the 3UR-FE, but it is actually pretty competitive since the 2014 refresh, and that is without fuel injection! Fingers crossed that they give is something good
My understanding is that the newer Tundras are among the very worst of modern full-size pickups in terms of fuel efficiency. The 1UR supposedly gets maybe 1mpg better with drastically reduced performance. Heck, even the Ram is getting better records on Fuelly. Now, I'm not expecting a huge pickup to get Prius-like numbers, or even Camry V6-like, but I gotta say it does need some help.

An update to the 3UR, similar to what the 2GR got recently, could be exactly what it needs. I've driven several Tundras and don't think they need more power. They just need to guzzle less gas. However, more power wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
M
TheNerdyPotato
My understanding is that the newer Tundras are among the very worst of modern full-size pickups in terms of fuel efficiency. The 1UR supposedly gets maybe 1mpg better with drastically reduced performance. Heck, even the Ram is getting better records on Fuelly. Now, I'm not expecting a huge pickup to get Prius-like numbers, or even Camry V6-like, but I gotta say it does need some help.

An update to the 3UR, similar to what the 2GR got recently, could be exactly what it needs. I've driven several Tundras and don't think they need more power. They just need to guzzle less gas. However, more power wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
In regard to the 2GR update, are you referring to the 2GR-FKS?
Gecko
Look at the numbers on Fuelly... Tundra is the worst of the worst. 13-14 MPG avg vs. 15-17 MPG for competitors.
T
MOBLIN
In regard to the 2GR update, are you referring to the 2GR-FKS?
Yes. Higher compression, direct injection, VVT-iW, and all the other goodies that help with efficiency. I think that would be the best short term solution, with a proper all-new replacement a few years later.
C
ssun30
120hp(90kW)/L is a very Toyota-esque specific power target. For turbocharged engines, having a low downsizing factor is always beneficial for drivability, peak efficiency, and durability. Toyota picked a common 'middle ground' downsizing factor (1.5). It has nothing to do with their competence. Competitors aimed for 100-110kW(130-150hp)/L to have the downsized engine cover more applications. Toyota just doesn't want to go that far and compensate with raw displacement, hence the 3.5L and 2.5L.

Mazda had a even more modest target of 100hp/L with their turbocharged Skyactiv engine in order to keep the compression ratio high. That 2.5T is a very well reviewed engine compared to some questionable 2.0Ts from competitors.

Specific power is just a number and tells nothing about actual performance. There are too many 250hp 2.0Ts in the market. Some are excellent, some are abysmal. In my example, the 248hp Volvo T5 is absolutely dreadful: intolerable lag, non-existent torque below 2500rpm, and terrible NVH.
No wonder Volvo introduced "PowerPulse", basically blowing compressed air at the turbine wheel to spool up the turbo faster. Not sure how well it works though.
S
How much maintenance does the FKS package add compared to the FE?
T
ssun30
How much maintenance does the FKS package add compared to the FE?
The FKS package is basically an updated version of the previous FSE, right? They already have dual VVT-i, so VVT-iW isn't much of a stretch. The only major mechanical addition over the FE engines (that I can think of) is the direct injection. When the 2GR-FKS first came out, I read that the ECU will periodically and automatically put the direct injectors through a self-cleaning cycle. That basically leaves the high pressure DI pump, which I haven't heard of many Lexus models having that fail. If/when it does, I'm sure it does cost a pretty penny.
M
TheNerdyPotato
The FKS package is basically an updated version of the previous FSE, right? They already have dual VVT-i, so VVT-iW isn't much of a stretch. The only major mechanical addition over the FE engines (that I can think of) is the direct injection. When the 2GR-FKS first came out, I read that the ECU will periodically and automatically put the direct injectors through a self-cleaning cycle. That basically leaves the high pressure DI pump, which I haven't heard of many Lexus models having that fail. If/when it does, I'm sure it does cost a pretty penny.
You are correct about the self - cleaning. https://www.wardsauto.com/technology/toyota-advances-d4s-self-cleaning-feature-tacoma

My question is whether or not all future D-4S systems will have the self - cleaning technology like the 3rd gen Tacoma does?...
C
Do D-4S engines have lower particulate emissions than purely GDI engines?
M
carguy420
Do D-4S engines have lower particulate emissions than purely GDI engines?
Yes, because the engine is running on both PI and DI during normal driving situations. Using PI in conjunction with DI lessens the "need" for the DI. They are used simultaneously so that the negatives of one are canceled out by the the positives of the other. Best of both worlds!

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/explained-why-some-engines-have-both-port-and-direct-injection
S
TheNerdyPotato
My understanding is that the newer Tundras are among the very worst of modern full-size pickups in terms of fuel efficiency. The 1UR supposedly gets maybe 1mpg better with drastically reduced performance. Heck, even the Ram is getting better records on Fuelly. Now, I'm not expecting a huge pickup to get Prius-like numbers, or even Camry V6-like, but I gotta say it does need some help.

An update to the 3UR, similar to what the 2GR got recently, could be exactly what it needs. I've driven several Tundras and don't think they need more power. They just need to guzzle less gas. However, more power wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.




They might do new V8 without turbo, it could be good for a lot of their countries. But otherwise, UR update would not be on that list.

Also keep in mind that Land Cruiser 300 is already rumored to get that 3.5tt with 420hp.

So there could be simply a turbo V8 with less power than F engine, that is more than adequate for many applications... just my assumptions.
M
Alright, I have to ask a stupid question... Is the V6 that the 2018 Camry and Avalon got a Dynamic Force engine? If it isn't, why not?

Can someone please list the Dynamic Force engines that have been officially announced/released?

Thank you!
T
MOBLIN
Alright, I have to ask a stupid question... Is the V6 that the 2018 Camry and Avalon got a Dynamic Force engine? If it isn't, why not?

Can someone please list the Dynamic Force engines that have been officially announced/released?

Thank you!
It's technically not a DF engine. The new V6 is the 2GR-FKS, which is an updated version of the 2GR-FE/FSE found in older Toyota/Lexus vehicles. As I understand, it is largely based off of the 1MZ that dates back to 1994 models, which in turn is very similar to the olde VZ series.

The 2 engines that I know for sure are DF family engines are the A25A 2.5l 4cyl found in the 2018 Camry and the M20A which will be in the 2019 Corolla hatchback and the new Lexus UX. I believe that the V35A is also a member of the DF family, both in turbo and hybrid forms, but I'm not 100% as it's after 2am and I just got off of an overtime shift.

edit: Assuming the V35A 3.5l V6 is a DF engine. It seems like it's an all-new design that's not directly based off of the past engines.
S

here is the list of "new" powertrains. Keep in mind - 9 new engines and 17 variations. What we know is that there will be V8TT for F models, then 2.4 or 2.5l turbo for GR replacement (non us?) and that is about it... Missing from the list:
- One V8 engine - between 420hp of V6tt and 620hp of V8tt
- 2.4/2.5l turbo replacement for GR
- between 2.5l and 2.0l engine - 1.6 turbo?
- 2 smaller than 2.0l engines.

- hybrid between 215hp 4cly and V6
- small hybrid - replacement for 1.5l

Powertrains that are just updated are not on that list.
M
Thanks a ton! Eventually, Toyota/Lexus will apply the Dynamic Force technology to most, if not all, of their engines, right?

http://www.autonews.com/article/201...will-spread-across-toyota?X-IgnoreUserAgent=1
S
@MOBLIN it will be engines on the list above, plus few others, like GR I suspect... but otherwise, Camry got new engines, Corolla will get 2.0l from the list, Lexus already started getting 3.5tt and it will obviously spread.

Whole point is that they will have much smaller number of engines in the future, which will enable them to put better engines into cheaper cars. Thus now Corolla getting state of the art 2.0l engine unlike before...
Gecko
TheNerdyPotato
It's technically not a DF engine. The new V6 is the 2GR-FKS, which is an updated version of the 2GR-FE/FSE found in older Toyota/Lexus vehicles. As I understand, it is largely based off of the 1MZ that dates back to 1994 models, which in turn is very similar to the olde VZ series.

The 2 engines that I know for sure are DF family engines are the A25A 2.5l 4cyl found in the 2018 Camry and the M20A which will be in the 2019 Corolla hatchback and the new Lexus UX. I believe that the V35A is also a member of the DF family, both in turbo and hybrid forms, but I'm not 100% as it's after 2am and I just got off of an overtime shift.

edit: Assuming the V35A 3.5l V6 is a DF engine. It seems like it's an all-new design that's not directly based off of the past engines.
I was fairly certain that GR V6 was an all-new design? I think UR V8 was based loosely on UZ V8, but I thought GR was all-new.

V35A-FTS is a Dynamic Force engine, but the V6 Hybrid is not - it still uses the GR V6 as the ICE.
Joaquin Ruhi
Gecko
I was fairly certain that GR V6 was an all-new design? I think UR V8 was based loosely on UZ V8, but I thought GR was all-new.
I agree. I, too, am under the impression that the GR V6 was an all-new, clean-sheet-of-paper design.

I believe that the smallest of the 6 yet-to-be-released Dynamic Force engines is a 3-cylinder unit.
S
Joaquin Ruhi
I agree. I, too, am under the impression that the GR V6 was an all-new, clean-sheet-of-paper design.

I believe that the smallest of the 6 yet-to-be-released Dynamic Force engines is a 3-cylinder unit.
who knows, because Toyota has introduced improved 1.0l 3cl already this year with new Aygo... and they also introduced new 1.5l ESTEC engine in last years Yaris. These are not counted here.

1.2t will be likely optimized further this year, but it wont be on the chart.

So who knows what are these 2 smaller ones? One is at least between 1.2l 112hp turbo and 2.0l 16hp NA engine... 1.6l turbo?
C
spwolf
who knows, because Toyota has introduced improved 1.0l 3cl already this year with new Aygo... and they also introduced new 1.5l ESTEC engine in last years Yaris. These are not counted here.

1.2t will be likely optimized further this year, but it wont be on the chart.

So who knows what are these 2 smaller ones? One is at least between 1.2l 112hp turbo and 2.0l 16hp NA engine... 1.6l turbo?
Won't a 1.6l turbo end up easily exceeding the performance of the 2.0l NA? Unless it runs low boost pressure.

Also what DF engine will succeed Toyota's 1.5l NA?
T
Gecko
I was fairly certain that GR V6 was an all-new design? I think UR V8 was based loosely on UZ V8, but I thought GR was all-new.

V35A-FTS is a Dynamic Force engine, but the V6 Hybrid is not - it still uses the GR V6 as the ICE.
Like I said, I posted that on an empty, sleepy brain. Thanks for the correction. I'm pretty sure that the bottom end of the 2GR is based on the MZ. IDK, maybe I need to go to a junkyard and get the 2 motors, then tear them down and compare everything.
S
What else could be done to the 8NR though? The calibration engineers don't like it because the efficiency and torque just don't match the benchmark. The mechanical team doesn't like it because the cylinders are just too small to work with. But it ended up being one of the most important engines in their entire lineup (in China it was what made the Corolla the king of the compacts). That engine really needs a power bump to at least 100kW and over 200N.m, all the while not losing any efficiency.
S
TheNerdyPotato
Like I said, I posted that on an empty, sleepy brain. Thanks for the correction. I'm pretty sure that the bottom end of the 2GR is based on the MZ. IDK, maybe I need to go to a junkyard and get the 2 motors, then tear them down and compare everything.
Wait. You are suggesting that the GR family engines don't share the same base block (as the 4.0 1GR)?

All MZs are based on the 3.0 block right? Getting 3.5L out of it could certainly be a challenge
T
ssun30
Wait. You are suggesting that the GR family engines don't share the same base block (as the 4.0 1GR)?

All MZs are based on the 3.0 block right? Getting 3.5L out of it could certainly be a challenge
The 1GR and 2GR are very similar. I know the bellhousing and bottom end are rather different, though, specifically the 1GR has a taller deck and huge truck-sized transmission bolt pattern.

1MZ is 88x84mm. Yeah, the 2MZ 2.5l is a 3.0 destroked to 69mm, I think. The 3MZ 3.3l is a larger bore at 90mm but has the same 84mm stroke. 2GR again, has the same stroke as the 1MZ, but has a wider 94mm bore.

1MZ Deck:



2GR Deck:


I can't really say without inspecting them in person, but it looks like the bore spacing is about the same between generations, with material removed from between the cylinders. Also obvious is the move from a closed-deck to an open-deck design. I would like to check a number of other things, including bearing journal spacing and sizes, along with general construction (including bolt patterns) and dimensions. Somebody stop me before I make a mess in my garage. Again.
M
So aside from a twin turbo V8, what are you guys' best guesses for the other V8 on the diagram?
Gecko
MOBLIN
So aside from a twin turbo V8, what are you guys' best guesses for the other V8 on the diagram?
Workhorse V8 for Tundra, Sequoia, Land Cruiser... potentially LX?
Gecko
Another interesting thing I didn't notice before:
[​IMG]

The engine before the A25A-FKS and the one after it look identical - just like the two V8s look identical. So if they're going to be derivatives of the same block/basic design, that leads me to believe the engine between the V35A-FTS and A25A-FKS will indeed be a four cylinder (which just confirms the rumors, basically).

Could it be that the engine between the 2.0L M20A-FKS and 2.5L A25A-FKS is a new 2.0L turbo I4, and the engine between the A25A-FKS and the V35A-FTS is a 2.5L turbo I4? Does anyone know how the arrangement on this chart is determined - is it by displacement or power? It seems to be displacement, which means that the rumored 2.4L turbo I4 could also be the engine between the A25A-FKS and M20A-FKS, which puts us back to wondering what the engine is between A25A-FKS and V35A-FTS.

My assumption is those two new engines are a new 2.0L turbo I4 (between M20A and A25A) and a new 2.5L turbo I4 (between A25A and V35A).
M
Gecko
Another interesting thing I didn't notice before:
[​IMG]

The engine before the A25A-FKS and the one after it look identical - just like the two V8s look identical. So if they're going to be derivatives of the same block/basic design, that leads me to believe the engine between the V35A-FTS and A25A-FKS will indeed be a four cylinder (which just confirms the rumors, basically).

Could it be that the engine between the 2.0L M20A-FKS and 2.5L A25A-FKS is a new 2.0L turbo I4, and the engine between the A25A-FKS and the V35A-FTS is a 2.5L turbo I4? Does anyone know how the arrangement on this chart is determined - is it by displacement or power? It seems to be displacement, which means that the rumored 2.4L turbo I4 could also be the engine between the A25A-FKS and M20A-FKS, which puts us back to wondering what the engine is between A25A-FKS and V35A-FTS.

My assumption is those two new engines are a new 2.0L turbo I4 (between M20A and A25A) and a new 2.5L turbo I4 (between A25A and V35A).
I believe the arrangement is by displacement. I read that the V35A-FTS is going in the Land Cruiser. If it is going in the Land Cruiser, that doesn't necessarily mean it is going in the Tundra, Sequoia and LX, does it? I can't imagine having a twin turbo V6 as the only engine option in those vehicles...

Also, I believe the images are just stock images that do not represent what the engines themselves will look like.
S
carguy420
Won't a 1.6l turbo end up easily exceeding the performance of the 2.0l NA? Unless it runs low boost pressure.

Also what DF engine will succeed Toyota's 1.5l NA?
1.5l NR engine with ESTEC was introduced last year only, it is here to stay.

Same as with 1.2t vs 1.5l NA engine, it is fine that it will make more hp. It is meant for different application and turbo engines are much more expensive.
S
ssun30
What else could be done to the 8NR though? The calibration engineers don't like it because the efficiency and torque just don't match the benchmark. The mechanical team doesn't like it because the cylinders are just too small to work with. But it ended up being one of the most important engines in their entire lineup (in China it was what made the Corolla the king of the compacts). That engine really needs a power bump to at least 100kW and over 200N.m, all the while not losing any efficiency.
Small changes to output, responsiveness and efficiency are always possible for turbo engines, and were often done for Toyota turbo diesels.

For significantly bigger output, i expect that 1.6l turbo... depending on the market of course.

S