Lexus LF-1 Limitless Crossover on Display at DesignMiami/ Conference

Yeah, I expect LF-1 will introduce new powertrains (including BEV) either shortly before or alongside an LS refresh.

Gecko

The best chance to stand out and be unique is going to be something more rugged and tough looking though... not high performance.

CUVs/SUVs are already a quite stupid thing, but there is nothing more stupid than a high-powered gasoline race tired stiff suspended SUV... unless the sole purpose is higher survivability in case of crash, in which case high-performance SUV drivers should be the first to adopt driverless autonomous cars.

Joaquin Ruhi

Umm... I don't think they'll be calling the small one IQ. That badge is too closely associated with Toyota's space efficiency-pioneering "Smarter, Minier" city car. Change the nomenclature to RQ for the mid-level and NQ for the entry-level and you're good to go.

I thought about that too, since Scion had the IQ maybe Lexus can use EQ instead. We'll have to wait and see how Lexus plays out this (LF-1) or these new potential Lexus models.

LQ/LQ F
GQRQ
EQ or NQ

Funny that there will be Lexus models with the letter Q. Did Johan De Nysschen come work for Lexus?

Trexus

I thought about that too, since Scion had the IQ maybe Lexus can use EQ instead.

But then you get into conflict with Mercedes-Benz, which has registered the EQ trademark for its upcoming battery-electric vehicles... :confused:

Trexus

Funny that there will be Lexus models with the letter Q. Did Johan De Nysschen come work for Lexus?

LOL!

Gecko

With LF-1, there is no need for a high performance unibody GX. LF-1 "F" or LQ F will be that vehicle.

They could easily move GX to GA-L and just make it look tough/rugged. Toyota already has the platform and the mechanicals with TNGA-F also, so either way, they could make the idea work. The best chance to stand out and be unique is going to be something more rugged and tough looking though... not high performance.

But again LQ is flagship vehicle, it will sell at $80-$90k at minimum. So it cant compare to X5/X6/GLE price wise, it is another category.

I dont see the point of making GX look rugged but doing it on unibody. Their markets that buy Land Cruiser and LX do not need that vehicle, as we can see now.

So what they need it something higher performance than RX.

spwolf

But again LQ is flagship vehicle, it will sell at $80-$90k at minimum. So it cant compare to X5/X6/GLE price wise, it is another category.

I dont see the point of making GX look rugged but doing it on unibody. Their markets that buy Land Cruiser and LX do not need that vehicle, as we can see now.

So what they need it something higher performance than RX.

Once the LQ is out, expect to see reviews criticizing it for being a CUVs, or a lifted wagon, not as good looking and practical as the Germans, and for not looking like a German 'rugged' SUV.

Levi

Once the LQ is out, expect to see reviews criticizing it for being a CUVs, or a lifted wagon, not as good looking and practical as the Germans, and for not looking like a German 'rugged' SUV.

thats expected, except that nobody thinks germans have rugged SUV :)

p.s. when it comes to criticsm of Euro (mostly german owned now) press, I just read review in UK about V60 and they said interior is not up to par with german competition - where 3 has really cheap interior... lol. So some criticism will never be averted, but buyers dont get cars based on car mags anymore, or maybe ever, or else RX would have never sold so well in the first place.

spwolf

But again LQ is flagship vehicle, it will sell at $80-$90k at minimum. So it cant compare to X5/X6/GLE price wise, it is another category.

I dont see the point of making GX look rugged but doing it on unibody. Their markets that buy Land Cruiser and LX do not need that vehicle, as we can see now.

So what they need it something higher performance than RX.

We agree - I noted that X5, X6, GLE, etc are not going to be competitors to LF-1. If anything, there are rumors that BMW will do X8 to compete with Q8 and yes, LF-1. Mercedes? Would they do GLS Coupe? No idea...

Lexus creating a unibody SUV that looks rugged would probably result in a vehicle that is scoffed at by enthusiasts but impossible for dealers to keep in stock. Look at the Jeep Grand Cherokee, for example. Consumers like SUVs and always have - what they didn't like is how they drive and how much gas they use. Going unibody (in addition to overall powertrain advancements,) closes the gap with sedans much more closely on MPG and provides a better driving experience as well. Plus, with modern active AWD systems with torque vectoring, slip control, multi-terrain select, lockers and air suspension that can change ride height, unibody SUVs have become very capable indeed. The only unknown is how unibody construction will age with repeated, hard off road use.

^with that of that considered, now that we know TNGA-F exists, I think it is plausible to expect that if GX lives on, it will stay BOF. I think Prado, LC 150, 4Runner and GX will all become clones of the same model with less differentiation than they have now except for GX, which will have unique engines, sheetmetal and interior.

If LF-1/LQ is priced from say ~$80k+, that is great because it will fill a current hole in Lexus' lineup. We could have something like:

UX: $33 - 39k
NX: $37 - 47k
RX: $45 - 66k (incl RXL)
GX: $57 - 73k
LF-1: $80 - 93k
LX: $90 - 105k

@Gecko if they keep GX as it is, then still I would not mind some GQ model thats more performance based, which basically means RWD platform based... I bet it will sell decently enough.

As to LQ, I bet it will go over $100k, expect it to be $5k more than comparable LS.

spwolf

@Gecko if they keep GX as it is, then still I would not mind some GQ model thats more performance based, which basically means RWD platform based... I bet it will sell decently enough.

As to LQ, I bet it will go over $100k, expect it to be $5k more than comparable LS.

I also think it will be more expensive than the LS and more along the lines of the LC and above. I believe Lexus is looking at this as THE flagship (outside of the halo-level cars like the LFA) with how important of a market crossovers are today.

Best car has rendering, LQ-F coming in 2021 :-)

4.0l v8 bi-turbo 650hp :)





https://bestcarweb.jp/news/newcar/2757

So someone correct me if I am wrong

1) I don't believe that there will be RQ, NQ or UQ

2) I do believe we may see also a GQ

In short

I do believe that the Q is for the 2 BOF vehicles that Lexus don't want then to go Uni-Body aka LX & GX so they will have them in both scenarios normal BOF as X and newly fashioned Uni-Body as Q

Really interested to know how close to production the concept is. It looks more production ready than the LC concept. Turbo V8 does fit this car, with it mid-engine layout, I also wonder it the production car will also be that way. If yes it might be the first mid-engine CUV. Except (Jeep Wrangler and Land Cruiser 70, SUVs are not mid-front). I then wonder how will Lexus solve the AWD issue with such a mid-front layout. I expect the Ferrari CUV to have a similar looking car, a lifted FF/GTC4 with two more door and mid-front engine. They also have to solve the AWD issue. Maybe the new BMW M850xi will show a breakthrough (though BMW usually disappoint tech-wise). With the long wheelbase, I expect the LQ also to have AWS as every car in this category.

Has anyone noticed the frameless doors? Do you think the production car will get them too? As of now, without counting old Subarus, there are only two CUVs that have frameless doors: The Maserati Levante and the pair Lamborghini Urus/Audi Q8. (Urus is basically a rebadged/rebodied Q8). One negative of frameless doors is the increased noise. I do not know if this issue has been completely mitigated compared to framed doors. But frameless doors are cool when windows are down and doors open.

I expect the LQs main rival will be the Q8 and Urus, which will be powered by V8 turbos and a probably plug-in version. Given the flop of the second generation R8, which is at least on the magnitude of the new NSX (my favorite supercar right now), as there will be no third generation, the Q8 will quite likely take the flagship role at Audi (with 2.0 TFSI engine to increase sales? lol), until its BEV cars arrive (if Tesla does not go bankrupt). Audi really lost it with the arrogant refusal to use the new RWD based platform. The A6 and A8 only out will have to live a whole generation on the old FWD based platform. Not to forget that the SUV platform is also still FWD based, in other words, nose heavy.

I also expect reviews mentioning how much more trunk volume the Q8 has, and saying how it is "more off-road capable with all the off-road tech it has, even though on track the LQ handles better and is faster, but who drives such CUVs on track?". I should probably start a satire car review website...

spwolf

That font end is still a little much for me, but DAMN does it look good in black.

Levi

They also have to solve the AWD issue. Maybe the new BMW M850xi will show a breakthrough (though BMW usually disappoint tech-wise). With the long wheelbase, I expect the LQ also to have AWS as every car in this category.

-----

I expect the LQs main rival will be the Q8 and Urus, which will be powered by V8 turbos and a probably plug-in version. Given the flop of the second generation R8, which is at least on the magnitude of the new NSX (my favorite supercar right now), as there will be no third generation, the Q8 will quite likely take the flagship role at Audi (with 2.0 TFSI engine to increase sales? lol), until its BEV cars arrive (if Tesla does not go bankrupt). Audi really lost it with the arrogant refusal to use the new RWD based platform. The A6 and A8 only out will have to live a whole generation on the old FWD based platform. Not to forget that the SUV platform is also still FWD based, in other words, nose heavy.

Article indeed does mention Urus and Cayenne as competitors .

As to the AWD, both LS500 and LS500h already have full time awd system.

krew

Rendered: The Production Lexus LF-1 Limitless Crossover

Absolutely stunning.

View the original article post

p.s. We are always wondering how many SUVs are enough... but look at it this way - Today, SUV/CUV make 70% of the sales. Leaving only 30% for passenger vehicles.

So yeah, just like before when we had coupes, convertibles, wagons, even models like 5 GT from BMW, we are going to get many similar SUV/CUV models that have different aspiration.

When it comes to regular cars, 15 years ago here in Europe we have had 3 (!!!) Toyota MPVs... Yaris Verso, Corolla Verso and Avensis Verso.
Now MPVs are dead, so there is only 1 and it has not been updated in a while.

So all of that, as well as Avensis and Avensis Wagon will spill into variation of SUV/CUV category. So between $25k and $45k we will have 7-8 Toyota CUVs to pick from simply because this will become 70% of their sales.

Same will end up being true for Lexus. Now Lexus has much higher margins so they can allow themselves to do more sedans than Toyota, simply because break-even point is much less.. but there is no doubt that in few years, we will have CUVs for everything.

So, it's the same raised hatchback style just like the UX. Now it makes a some sort of sense to keep two parallel lines. In ten years the 'Q-cars' are going to replace the sedans.

@ssun30

Yes and No
Yes it may evolve to other models
No the Sedan will never die, it may shrink but will never be completely die

I am a Lexus loyalist, but I have to say that front end does not inspire me as flagship. Rather, it truly does remind me of 'predator'. I think there can be an aggressive yet refined spindle that will correlate with the refined/cutting edge design of the rest of the vehicle ... like the LC ... like the LS! I hope this front fascia rendering does not represent the production model.

RAL

I am a Lexus loyalist, but I have to say that front end does not inspire me as flagship. Rather, it truly does remind me of 'predator'. I think there can be an aggressive yet refined spindle that will correlate with the refined/cutting edge design of the rest of the vehicle ... like the LC ... like the LS! I hope this front fascia rendering does not represent the production model.

i think it looks rather amazing... a lot more sophisticated than regular predator grille

If this thing is going to be the flagship, wow I can't wait to see what the interior is going to be like. The LS is already amazing enough as it is, for the price.

I am not impressed by the front end and I'm confident it doesn't look like that, but is better resolved.

This will essentially be what the redesigned 2019 Infiniti QX70 RWD was supposed to be before it was cancelled and re-positioned as an Infiniti-badged Murano by idiot product planners.

I will respond in a different post, regarding some comments in this thread.

I think we already saw the clay model of the production shape

I don't think that grille is anything like reality; it's probably going to be more like the LS.

RAL

I am a Lexus loyalist, but I have to say that front end does not inspire me as flagship. Rather, it truly does remind me of 'predator'. I think there can be an aggressive yet refined spindle that will correlate with the refined/cutting edge design of the rest of the vehicle ... like the LC ... like the LS! I hope this front fascia rendering does not represent the production model.

Agreed.

Ian Schmidt

I don't think that grille is anything like reality; it's probably going to be more like the LS.

I hope you're right.

Levi

I have had a look at the concept pics again. It looks almost like a production ready vehicle. More LC concept, than LS, NX or UX concept.

The thing about the LF-NX concept, was that it had to have been developed after the summer 2012 design freeze (final styling selection was in January 2012). It was entirely based on the production design. The UX Concept had to have been developed during the cubing process (final design set, not yet frozen) in the first half of 2016.

LF-FC was developed between August 2014 and September 2015. LS 200B design freeze was in Summer 2014, in which I will give the full date in my upcoming story.

Regarding this new 650B program for LQ, I am not sure where it stands right now, but based on the new trademark filings I will say that it's coming before 2021 and early 2021 at latest. Most Lexus trademark filings nowadays have a lead time of 30 months or less.

If on GA-L and requiring specialization versus a simple model addition, I can imagine it undergoing design freeze right now. Without further delays, this is a 2021 model year vehicle. The production design would have been set some time last year.

On the low end usually it's about a four-month cubing process, on the high-end about 9 months. Since I do not work for a Toyota I don't know what they require on this project. With the 950A LC (Z100) it was about 8 months of cubing, not even including LF-LC.

BTW (for those who didn't know) Cubing is typically where the final production design is set and this process taken to complete the design freeze. That stage is very important because of feasibility measures and is pretty much what I specialized in at Jaguar Land Rover.

After that, factory tooling can be ordered and depending on complexity of the design being produced, it increases the lead time needed to develop that tooling. That of course isn't the only factor in how long it takes to prepare a vehicle for production from that point.

The standard is a minimum of 18 months for complete factory tooling, which can jump up to 42 months on extremely complex designs.

This is probably why competitors cannot copy another car, once they reach that "point of no return" or they throw a lot of money away in hundreds of millions to redesign tooling. I mentioned this info, for those who may not know about this reality.

I just wished journalists would remember that truth and not post stupid articles or opinion pieces about who copied who, when it would be impossible in the realm of feasibility.

Joaquin Ruhi

On 7 May 2018, Toyota registered the LQ trademark in the United States, under Serial Number 87909977, for “automobiles and structural parts thereof”. All signs suggest that this will be the prefix for the production version of the "flagship crossover" LF-1 Limitless Concept.

But what could the Q mean? And are there other LQ possibilities? My thoughts appear in my latest Kaizen Factor story

Good work, in bringing this to the forefront. (thumbs up)

F1 Silver Arrows

Why do I have a gut feeling that this car will further launch more models down the line having the Q designation...... Oh right. See BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Audi.

For those who didn't read the article yet or simply didn't get what I mean, I have a feeling that we're starting to get crossover coupes from Lexus. Starting from the top, then the midsize and the compact class. They're witnessing the amount of success the GLC Coupe/GLE Coupe/X6 are getting, and I am thinking that Lexus want's a piece of that lucrative market.

Interesting perspective to take, but I do wonder if there's some redundancy with having too many models?

Maybe not right away, but possibly further down the line, because of Toyota's (and their relentless apologists') convenient excuse of how they are exhausting too many of their vast resources and that is why engines have been kept too long.

asoksevil

LT sounds much better and it kind of fits with the current use of the T in CT. Why make a complete new letter associated with other brands and no history in Lexus.

LT sounds terribly uninspired and I always questioned the nomenclature of the CT. Plus the positioning of the two models are too different, justify the use of T to align with a former hatchback.

ssun30

Can we roughly estimate when they are going to release the LQ if they register the trademark? What is their typical lead time?
I think an optimistic estimate would be production concept in 19H2, launch in 20H1, and availability in 20H2.

It is typically 24-30 months. The LS 500h trademark was filed on May 22, 2015, as the car was intended to enter production originally for a summer 2017 JDM launch and fall 2017 in export markets. Ended up being January 2018 and February 2018.

Back on February 28, 2005, LS 460, LS 460L and LS 600hL were filed. LS 460/L was released on October 20, 2006 in the United States after September 19th JDM launch and LS 600h/L in July 2007.

RC 350 trademark was filed in November 2012 the car went on sale in November 2014. RC-F was filed in January 2013. NX trademarks were filed in late October 2012, before export sales began in November 2014.

UX trademarks were first filed on February 24 2016, 33.5 months before sales began in December 2018.

GS-F trademark was filed a final time on March 15, 2013, at 32 months before release in November 2015.

GS200t was filed on September 11, 2013, at 26 months.

ES300h trademark was first filed on November 23, 2010, before sales began 22 months in September 2012.

LC trademarks were filed in late November 2014, before sales began in May 2017.

As you can see things were filed much closer in the past to launch, but now it's more projected out. Much of the time it is when marketing has committed to what they want the model name to be. In many cases of a new model it has to do with when they finally have an approved design and a set powerplant, plus feel the atmosphere is safe enough against competitive benchmarking and responsive lead time.

It took about 2.5 months for them to file a trademark for LS 500 on August 4, 2015 after the hybrid variant, likely being indecisive about what a twin-turbo 3.5 liter V6 engine should be called. This was at a time when there was a shift in nomenclature to drop "t" as a turbo suffix. It would've been called LS350t instead, rather than LS 500.

A reason why I didn't understand the GS 300 trademarks, later finding out they were replacing 200t.

I'm not sure that one can hope to expect another concept. This car is due in the second half of 2020 most likely.

F1 Silver Arrows

... the LQ (which we believe is the LF-1) fighting the future X7. Remember, they don't have a LX/Geländewagen competitor. So the LQ would fight the X7.

:)

The X7 will not be a competitor of the LQ (650B). That would be the new X8 model, which will be a 5-seater.

Gecko

IMO, Lexus seems to have smartly avoided the "four door coupe vs sedan" trend by simply giving their sedans sexier curves and more svelte, coupe-like rooflines, e.g. new LS and ES. This makes the most sense, IMO, but I'd still love for GS to return as an ultra dramatic four door coupe that pushes the boundary even more. I think it would be cool for Gazoo/F to have their own global car, similar to how AMG has the GT. GS could be perfect for that, but I know I'm dreaming.

Anyway, it seems to me like the CUV coupe craze is still not a market worth chasing for Lexus. I don't know what volume the X4, X6, GLC Coupe and GLE Coupe sell in, but I don't think it's very much (keep in mind we're talking about conservative Lexus here). Dedicated high performance CUVs like the Levante, Cayenne and Range Rover Sport make a lot more sense to more people and have a proven place in the market vs these CUV coupes. I see LF-1 as competitor to those three - Levante, Cayenne, Range Rover Sport and the forthcoming Q8 - because Mercedes nor BMW really offer anything comparable. GLS and G class are Mercedes two SUV flagships, X7 will be BMW's and Audi will have the Q8. X6, GLE Coupe, Q6 e-tron and others will be a solid step below the LF-1. Cayenne is rather small inside, Range Rover Sport isn't necessarily RR's flagship and the Levante is Maserati's first and only SUV. LF-1 positioned as the king crossover in Lexus' CUV line, built on GA-L, with two roomy and luxurious rows and a focus on performance is a unique proposition. I think the vehicle it most directly competes with will be the Levante and TBD on the Q8. Lexus has, once again, created their own formula with the LF-1.

IMO, now that we have UX, NX, RX, RX-L and upcoming LF-1, Lexus' unibody SUV portfolio is pretty well built out. Small to large, basic to ultra luxury and performance, the bases are well covered. We'll have to see how the SUV craze progresses, but I think it would actually be smarter for Lexus to invest in a next generation BOF GX instead of chasing another unibody crossover with less cargo space than it's "non coupe" counterpart. GX has been the surprise success that nobody expected and most of what we know shows that people actually want boxy looking SUVs/CUVs that just drive better on road. Consumers like the image of tough and rugged. The only competitors who offer anything like this are the Mercedes G Class and Range Rover. UX, NX, RX, RX-L and LF-1 are all so svelte... a boxy, tough looking GX would sell exponentially better than any type of NX or RX coupe. I suspect Lexus knows this and the GX has been saved by TNGA-F and the SUV craze.

As we both know they are investing in a new GX. I am not convinced it is coming next year as a GA - F model, but a heavy remodeling of the current 150. Prototypes of a new LX should be showing up soon. If not they're being withheld and test at night.

The BMW X7 is not going to be a competitor of this model, but more likely a higher-end product named X8, which is being handled at BMW's research facility in Munich. Just a little behind the Lexus project. I don't see this being a 7 or 8 seater, which is what BMW's X7 will be. (Just saw you point out GLS C & X8 on following page in a different post)

spwolf

What if GX moves to unibody and becomes something like high performance SUV on rwd GA-L? With some interesting design, they can make that coupe look and still have decent space, it is SUV afterall, which usually means higher seating position that leaves space.

GX never made a mark in areas where LX did great, where BoF matters. It only works in the US, where I dont think many care it is BoF or not.

It is not going to unibody and I have said this number of times with conviction. The investment in the GX would not be worth the trouble, if they're going to do that. We are only some months from the first spy shots of a "new GX" and it is not GA-L. It took them a while to give up on the GS, I doubt they're running to do that with the GX so soon, while sales continue to surge and not decrease.

maiaramdan

I think we already saw the clay model of the production shape

I'm not sure that we did but anything is possible. Most likely we did see the shape, but not so much the details.



I honestly get so tired of editing my posts, because of stupid autocorrect and voice to text screwing it up. I am very pedantic and particular about accuracy and good grammar. Please excuse me.

I honestly don't think that Lexus needs any SUV coupes, at least for now. Right now, they need to focus on perfecting the current SUV lineup, which will most likely get the most sales. Making the RX a slightly bigger, RWD-based SUV to properly compete with the X5 and GLE-Class, improving the NX and LX interior, etc. SUV Coupes are just too niche for Lexus to produce right now, especially without as much of a "cool" brand image that many X6 and GLE-Class Coupe owners care about.

That's why the LQ will probably be the only "Q" model for a while. Anyways, "Q" doesn't really mean SUV Coupe. For all we know they could just be called something like NX Coupe.

I had wanted this to be called LX SportCross, since GLE Coupe exists below that and keeps GLE nameplate.

According to a Lexus forum member (same guy who saw 2018 LS in early-mid 2016), he's seen the whole modular MHA CUV family, which look better than before. MB is going to become a real threat soon. GLS X167, W167 GLE, C167, and V167.

meth.ix

I honestly don't think that Lexus needs any SUV coupes, at least for now. Right now, they need to focus on perfecting the current SUV lineup, which will most likely get the most sales. Making the RX a slightly bigger, RWD-based SUV to properly compete with the X5 and GLE-Class, improving the NX and LX interior, etc. SUV Coupes are just too niche for Lexus to produce right now, especially without as much of a "cool" brand image that many X6 and GLE-Class Coupe owners care about.

That's why the LQ will probably be the only "Q" model for a while. Anyways, "Q" doesn't really mean SUV Coupe. For all we know they could just be called something like NX Coupe.

I think your suggestion would be answered with the redesign of those SUV. Especially using the UX as an example.