Lexus ES Sedan to Debut World’s First Digital Side Mirrors

https://newsroom.toyota.co.jp/en/lexus/24544476.html

krew

Lexus ES Sedan to Debut World's First Digital Side Mirrors

Limited to Japan for the time being.

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The last 2 photos are horizontally mirrored, see Lexus logo and license plate.
Someone an explanation for this?

OlFius

The last 2 photos are horizontally mirrored, see Lexus logo and license plate.
Someone an explanation for this?

i would think it is all photoshops for press pics, not real pictures yet

I love it. Very cool. :cool:

D

A lot of people are going hard at criticizing Lexus for this system, calling it cheap or tacky, answer to a problem no one needed. It's unusually pathetic, especially in also comparing it to a $100k USD Audi E-tron. Especially on Auto Blog, TTAC, and Jalopnik (crap site). If MB did this, I doubt one would hear much. Was there such criticism regarding the Audi system?

A lot of these critics are unusually obtuse or trolling, the same way they were with APGS/IPA in 2006-07. Lexus is now the only premium brand not to offer an automated parking assist system. Why is that? Too much criticism or was it affected by Remote Touch interface? They pioneered automated parking for production vehicles in 2003, yet dropped out of the game in 2012, only offering it on 1 Lexus model IIRC.

Ironically, Toyota also pioneered the rear view camera in 1987 for production automobiles (seen on JDM Lexus SC*) and ultrasonic rear parking assist in 1982 on the JDM Corona. In fact, look at the feature list for both the 1982 Corona and 1991 Soarer. Just amazing for their time! Why isn't Lexus like this though with innovation?
View attachment 2975

View attachment 2974

(1994 UZZ32 Example)
View attachment 2976
Unfortunately Toyota got usurped globally by competitors in Infiniti (Q45 in March 2001) and BMW (E32 7-Series in March 1992).
View attachment 2973



Even front facing splitview camera was already being offered on Japanese market cars as early as 2003 (Honda and Nissan as well), later inspiring BMWs Sideview 2008 system on the F01 7-Series.

Kudos to Lexus for doing this. but how about the digital rearview seen in Cadillac and Nissan/Infiniti that switches between mirror and digital LCD?
Does this JDM offering still have 2 extras cameras below the mounting for the 360° camera system?



My only anger is, since WHEN did the ES become the Lexus flagship? Wasn't the LS supposed to debut this originally? Why are they behaving like the LS is some CLS type niche midel and the ES is a (successful) RLX-type FWD flagship?

What bothers me about Toyota at Lexus is a failure to execute a proper top down approach to their model range. There's no reason why the RAV4 has more equipment in some areas than the facelifted NX.

As you know, Japanese are very pragmatic.

I remember when sipa was just introduced in Prius in Europe, 10 years ago... I don't think anyone ever ended up using it. It was just too eeerie to let car do everything on its own.

New UX has sipa in Europe if i remember correctly.

They also recently announced update to mav dystem for some domestic car, maybe crown, where if back camera is dirty from rain, you can move fingers across screen quickly and i guess camera motors would move to shake the water out. Thought it was interesting.

btw @Carmaker1 did you notice that digital rearview mirror was announced for Rav4 in Japan a month ago or so?

The worst part is not their lack of innovation, but them keeping so many of the cool features JDM-only. And that's something they have been doing since the Bubble Era.

ssun30

The worst part is not their lack of innovation, but them keeping so many of the cool features JDM-only. And that's something they have been doing since the Bubble Era.

I was actually quite surprised that now they are putting a lot of features into US models too... before Toyota's there were pretty stripped.

Chinese market seems to get all the goodies.

Rav4 for Europe will be announced soon with more info on available levels, so lets see if digital rearview mirror is there.

ssun30

The worst part is not their lack of innovation, but them keeping so many of the cool features JDM-only. And that's something they have been doing since the Bubble Era.

In the case of the outside rearview cameras in lieu of mirrors, part of the problem is that they are still illegal in the United States. The laws as written require an actual, physical mirror. Both Audi (whose outside cameras in the upcoming e-tron SUV are also banned here) and Lexus have petitioned NHTSA for a change in the laws, but they don't seem to be coming anytime soon.

Carmaker1

What bothers me about Toyota at Lexus is a failure to execute a proper top down approach to their model range. There's no reason why the RAV4 has more equipment in some areas than the facelifted NX. This company has the ability to innovate for its brands, but has slowed down at times in some senses.

I've said it before, Toyota/Lexus likes to debut new tech on lower-end cars to make those buyers the beta testers. I suspect their "inspiration" was the BMW iDrive debacle, wherein new 7-series customers were treated to things like the transmission randomly slamming into reverse when you tuned the radio. A lot of them probably marched over to their Mercedes dealership after experiencing it.

Carmaker1

My only anger is, since WHEN did the ES become the Lexus flagship? Wasn't the LS supposed to debut this originally? Why are they behaving like the LS is some CLS type niche model and the ES is a (successful) RLX-type FWD flagship?

This is the new Lexus, for better or worse, and sales in the USA validate the strategy. Dealerships are struggling with the LS & LC (both of which have distinct personalities that require some salesperson storytelling), especially when they're used to the ES & RX flying off the lots. Add the fact that no one wants a car in this market, and there's little reason to debut new tech on the two $75k+ flagships.

Honestly, the new ES could be the best selling luxury sedan in the country (excellent design, modern features, exceptional price point).

EDIT: Please forgive my US-centric views, but it remains the largest market for Lexus sales in the world. :D

krew

This is the new Lexus, for better or worse, and sales in the USA validate the strategy. Dealerships are struggling with the LS & LC (both of which have distinct personalities that require some salesperson storytelling), especially when they're used to the ES & RX flying off the lots. Add the fact that no one wants a car in this market, and there's little reason to debut new tech on the two $75k+ flagships.

Honestly, the new ES could be the best selling luxury sedan in the country (excellent design, modern features, exceptional price point).

All of this is true, it's just hard to watch and seems to speak to the fact that LS was either over baked, half baked or something else. ES debuts with CarPlay, Alexa, digital side mirrors, and soon, a better (torque vectoring) AWD system. Notice that LS reviews were plagued with media complaints about infotainment, but on ES, it seemed to be a footnote at best. Digital side mirrors are just plain cool and would have been a notable feature for LS debut.

I understand the rapid pace of progress in this industry, but for the amount of time it took to come to market and the fact that it costs double the ES, the LS should have really debuted all of these things first.

Carmaker1

What bothers me about Toyota at Lexus is a failure to execute a proper top down approach to their model range. There's no reason why the RAV4 has more equipment in some areas than the facelifted NX. This company has the ability to innovate for its brands, but has slowed down at times in some senses.

It's really a discussion for another thread, but you sum it up very well here. I know I will have many who disagree with me for saying this, but if you look at the separation between Toyota and Lexus, it's less now than it ever was. Short of LC and LS, I see very little reason to upgrade to Lexus from Toyota - part of that is age of the Lexus lineup vs Toyota, but the other part of it seems to be this new "Toyota-first" approach that debuted with TNGA.

I would not spend my own money to buy:

ES over Camry
GS over Camry
RX over Highlander
NX over 2019 Rav4
LX over Land Cruiser
RC over Supra

The only products I see real appeal in are IS (RWD, accessible price point), GX (V8/6AT over 4runner V6/5AT), LS and LC.

GS used to be the one model that was middle tier for Lexus, and got you into a product that was truly "Lexus" for ~$40-45k. Now, Camry has caught up or surpassed it before GS goes away. The only real reason to buy ES/RX over Toyota is if you like how they look and feel, because Camry, Avalon and Highlander are technically identical. I have big hopes for the 4IS and want it to be a car that brings true Lexus engineering to the entry level/midsize price point.

It's beating a dead, rotting horse at this point, but LS debuting with a V8 would have helped to move the brand further away from Toyota. LC F and LS F will help, but Lexus' core tiers are literally at the risk of becoming "luxury Toyotas" which is the stereotype we've all been fighting for two decades.

Gecko

All of this is true, it's just hard to watch and seems to speak to the fact that LS was either over baked, half baked or something else. ES debuts with CarPlay, Alexa, digital side mirrors, and soon, a better (torque vectoring) AWD system. Notice that LS reviews were plagued with media complaints about infotainment, but on ES, it seemed to be a footnote at best. Digital side mirrors are just plain cool and would have been a notable feature for LS debut.

I understand the rapid pace of progress in this industry, but for the amount of time it took to come to market and the fact that it costs double the ES, the LS should have really debuted all of these things first.

Not really.

It has nothing to do with LS or ES or NX. TMC puts technology like this inside vehicle when it is available.

Digital rearview mirrors were available when ES is coming out, as such they could do engineering on that vehicle for it. For LS, it has to wait until refresh.
Same goes for CarPlay.

Do you really think they should have delayed these features until LS first had them?

Same goes for AWD... do you think Lexus LS should not have had AWD because year later they are building some torque vectoring setup for ES?

By that account, any innovation in Lexus can only happen every 3-4 years when LS is refreshed.

They are reserving things like 500 and 500h for LS/LC, but other minor things will certainly not wait, nor should they.

Gecko

I would not spend my own money to buy:
ES over Camry
GS over Camry
RX over Highlander
NX over 2019 Rav4
LX over Land Cruiser
RC over Supra

- Supra is not on sale for another year
- LX is considerably nicer vehicle than LC, and honestly LC in US makes 0 sense at all.

So basically Lexus should have delayed RC for 4 years until it can come out after Supra?

What happens when NX in 2 years has a lot more luxury and tech than Rav4 does next year? That is going to be 5 years of NX having a lot more features and tech.

spwolf

Not really.

It has nothing to do with LS or ES or NX. TMC puts technology like this inside vehicle when it is available.

Digital rearview mirrors were available when ES is coming out, as such they could do engineering on that vehicle for it. For LS, it has to wait until refresh.
Same goes for CarPlay.

Do you really think they should have delayed these features until LS first had them?

Same goes for AWD... do you think Lexus LS should not have had AWD because year later they are building some torque vectoring setup for ES?

By that account, any innovation in Lexus can only happen every 3-4 years when LS is refreshed.

They are reserving things like 500 and 500h for LS/LC, but other minor things will certainly not wait, nor should they.

^All of this just speaks to poor product planning. Period.

spwolf

What happens when NX in 2 years has a lot more luxury and tech than Rav4 does next year? That is going to be 5 years of NX having a lot more features and tech.

We can wait and see. If Camry/Avalon/ES are any indication, the differences between the two will be mostly cosmetic. I assume NX will have a larger engine option, which it should.

Gecko

We can wait and see. If Camry/Avalon/ES are any indication, the differences between the two will be mostly cosmetic. I assume NX will have a larger engine option, which it should.

You dont think NX had any advantages over current Rav4?
I can also see a lot of advantages of UX vs CHR, depite CHR being a good car.

Gecko

^All of this just speaks to poor product planning. Period.

engineers don't work every 3 years.

LS also introduced latest LSS.

Audi also introduced sideview mirrors on e-tron, which is Q5 variation and not on A8. Well, theirs wont be on sales for another year.

spwolf

You dont think NX had any advantages over current Rav4?
I can also see a lot of advantages of UX vs CHR, depite CHR being a good car.

Not really. It has more power, but is also 600lbs heavier, so the performance difference is not substantial. Nicer interior trim, generally higher quality interior, but is any of that worth $15k? Rav4 also has substantially larger interior, which is a design decision - but for same sized vehicle, I'd prefer to have more interior space.

UX is nicer than C-HR IMO, significantly. The shape is more user friendly (larger rear doors) and the interior is significantly nicer.

spwolf

engineers don't work every 3 years.

LS also introduced latest LSS.

Audi also introduced sideview mirrors on e-tron, which is Q5 variation and not on A8. Well, theirs wont be on sales for another year.

The entire last decade at Toyota/Lexus was spent propping up old models/tech/platforms as a stop gap to prepare for TNGA, and then only recently rolling out TNGA models and technologies. There has been plenty of development time, not only for models but also for individual technologies and options. Thanks to folks like Carmaker1, we are well aware of lead times for cars like LS. LC program launched in 2012 after LF-LC. Looking at spy photos and other media outlets, we can get an idea of how long many other models take to bring to market.

As an example, ToMoCo would have been working on things like CarPlay/Alexa integration and DTV AWD for YEARS before inception. So you cannot tell me Avalon debuted in January and LS went on sale in February, and CarPlay and Alexa couldn't have been integrated into LS. If they had to bump LS introduction out to April to include CarPlay and Alexa, they should have done it. Disclaimer: I don't even like CarPlay and have used it many times. I think it is an overrated and overhyped system. But after 10 years without a new LS, and Lexus being fully aware of the complaints around Remote Touch, they should have strategically rolled out CarPlay and Alexa on the LS FIRST. Why? Because of the media reviews and because of the perception that the LS is the "crown jewel" of Toyota, as it once was, and because this should be the type of technology buyers expect on an LS.

I have made this point many times over the years, but Lexus does not understand that you have one opportunity to make a first impression. They historically rolled out a car as an apparent starting point and then shortly after, make significant changes to engines, transmissions and equipment after the initial media buzz is over. The TNGA era is the first time we've seen (mostly) new engines and platforms married together at launch, and the reason for that is most of the legacy hardware was so OLD it couldn't debut in new vehicles, except for the 2GR-FKS and 8AT. I understand that innovation, especially with powertrains, is gradual and sometimes all of the pieces don't come together at the same time. But ToMoCo had plenty of time to "reset" and make sure that the right pieces rolled out at the right time, and what we've seen so far seems "Toyota-first" and Lexus as an afterthought.

So, back to my original point: Lexus' product planning sucks, plain and simple. But I really don't know if it's even Lexus' fault for being ignorant or if Toyota is starving the brand of their latest and greatest tech/features because THEY are so behind the ball that, to your point, they're just trying to roll things out as fast as they can. But that doesn't make it right.

Gecko

Not really. It has more power, but is also 600lbs heavier, so the performance difference is not substantial. Nicer interior trim, generally higher quality interior, but is any of that worth $15k? Rav4 also has substantially larger interior, which is a design decision - but for same sized vehicle, I'd prefer to have more interior space.

UX is nicer than C-HR IMO, significantly. The shape is more user friendly (larger rear doors) and the interior is significantly nicer.

Well, not everyone is a luxury car buyer. Otherwise Toyota would only be able to sell Lexus vehicles.

Obviously it matters if interior is nicer or if sound proofing is better or if suspension is better.

I would have never bought current Rav4, it is simply not good enough luxury wise car... it is large appliance.

NX isnt.

Gecko

As an example, ToMoCo would have been working on things like CarPlay/Alexa integration and DTV AWD for YEARS before inception. So you cannot tell me Avalon debuted in January and LS went on sale in February, and CarPlay and Alexa couldn't have been integrated into LS. If they had to bump LS introduction out to April to include CarPlay and Alexa, they should have done it. Disclaimer: I don't even like CarPlay and have used it many times.

so basically bump LS for 6-8 months to wait for CarPlay?

Bump it for a year or 18 months to wait for new DTV?

What else should they bump it for?

spwolf

Well, not everyone is a luxury car buyer. Otherwise Toyota would only be able to sell Lexus vehicles.

Obviously it matters if interior is nicer or if sound proofing is better or if suspension is better.

I would have never bought current Rav4, it is simply not good enough luxury wise car... it is large appliance.

NX isnt.

I don't really understand your post?

The problem for Lexus is that they don't exist in a vacuum where the only comparison is to Toyota. They complete with manufacturers who are building significantly more sophisticated, high-tech, powerful and luxurious vehicles for similar prices.


Furthermore, since Lexus lost the sales crown, we started out blaming the Japanese tsunami and then production constraints, recall woes, and then we blamed the fact that the Germans have A3, 2 series, CLA, etc.

Reality is that S class outsells LS, 5 series/E Class outsell GS, C class and 3 series outsell IS, GLC/X3/Q5 outsell NX, and the list goes on. ES is positioned as a cut rate value product and the RX created the segment it owns, so those two models have unique advantages - but I am not taking credit away from them for Lexus' smart product positioning.

However, we're years past all of the excuses that we had before about why Lexus is behind in sales, and since then, consumers have spoken and voted with their wallets. The proof is there. Audi continues to gain - the question is, how long until they are #3 in USA and Lexus is #4?

Gecko

I don't really understand your post?

My point was that if you do not see the difference between current NX and Rav4, that is fine. Not everyone is luxury car buyer.

Current Rav4 is appliance. It's value is measured by price/space ratio.

NX is not that. Luxury cars do not have to be spacious. They dont have to be rational. It is ok not to be able to target everyone.

Long past is the time where Lexus was only appliance. I know it is not easy for US fans, as US car buyers do think a lot about space/price ratio.

But Lexus sales are constantly growing worldwide because of their change of thinking.

And besides, you mentioned Audi... but Audi does not introduce all the tech in new A8, not at all. A8 is almost not important vehicle for them. It sells poorly and LS outsells it easily. A7 is not close to the luxury of LC.

So not sure what does that sales talk have to do with digital sideview mirror that Lexus introduced in ES and Audi in e-Tron (Q5).

By that thinking, I guess MB is doing the best, they are waiting for all this tech for next S class, it does not matter that ES and Rav4 had more tech years before it :)

spwolf

so basically bump LS for 6-8 months to wait for CarPlay?

Bump it for a year or 18 months to wait for new DTV?

What else should they bump it for?

You are choosing not to see the points about development timelines and product planning between Toyota and Lexus, and would rather counter with extreme "YEAH? SO?" discussions. We are going downhill here.

So at this point, perhaps they should just scrap LS and come out with ES L. Is that good? Oh wait, ES already has more interior room than LS. And it has digital side mirrors! :p