Lexus August 2018 Sales Report

ssun30

@spwolf I'd say let's wait for the production version before making any conclusive comments. Engine calibration is one of the later engineering stages so I'm sure the press prototypes are far from final.

Mazda could certainly need Toyota's help on full hybrids. I wonder how far their strategic alliance will go. Maybe when TMC feels secure enough it will buy out Subaru and Mazda.

Question is if they want to buy them, and vice versa... also Suzuki too.

As to the hybrids, problem with using this and hybrids is cost.

Reviews mentioned how mild-hybrid tech was off, this is start/stop system, so thats partially what would bring official numbers up a bit, but not real life. I dont expect changes to increase MPG, only NVH since despite heavy sound proofing, it apparently is knocking away to the oblivion still.

They also are expected to unveil new diesel by 2019, so they would not be doing diesel if they expected these numbers to be actually much higher. It is apparently not replacing their diesel, rather be mid-spec upgrade for their petrol engine lineup.

ssun30

@spwolf I'd say let's wait for the production version before making any conclusive comments. Engine calibration is one of the later engineering stages so I'm sure the press prototypes are far from final.

Mazda could certainly need Toyota's help on full hybrids. I wonder how far their strategic alliance will go. Maybe when TMC feels secure enough it will buy out Subaru and Mazda.

Question is if they want to buy them, and vice versa... also Suzuki too.

As to the hybrids, problem with using this and hybrids is cost.

Reviews mentioned how mild-hybrid tech was off, this is start/stop system, so thats partially what would bring official numbers up a bit, but not real life. I dont expect changes to increase MPG, only NVH since despite heavy sound proofing, it apparently is knocking away to the oblivion still.

They also are expected to unveil new diesel by 2019, so they would not be doing diesel if they expected these numbers to be actually much higher. It is apparently not replacing their diesel, rather be mid-spec upgrade for their petrol engine lineup.

spwolf

Reviews mentioned how mild-hybrid tech was off, this is start/stop system, so thats partially what would bring official numbers up a bit, but not real life.

I don't understand this sentence, in particular the word "off". Did you mean that "mild-hybrid was unavailable for the press prototype" or "mild-hybrid was off-target when it comes to MPG"? Did Mazda plan to combine SkyActiv-X with mild hybrid? I could be missing something here.

spwolf

it apparently is knocking away to the oblivion still.

Care to explain? Was the press prototype engine knocking? It sounds funny since No.1 rule for drivetrain engineer is never allow a knocking engine on the road.

spwolf

Reviews mentioned how mild-hybrid tech was off, this is start/stop system, so thats partially what would bring official numbers up a bit, but not real life.

I don't understand this sentence, in particular the word "off". Did you mean that "mild-hybrid was unavailable for the press prototype" or "mild-hybrid was off-target when it comes to MPG"? Did Mazda plan to combine SkyActiv-X with mild hybrid? I could be missing something here.

spwolf

it apparently is knocking away to the oblivion still.

Care to explain? Was the press prototype engine knocking? It sounds funny since No.1 rule for drivetrain engineer is never allow a knocking engine on the road.

spwolf

Reviews mentioned how mild-hybrid tech was off, this is start/stop system, so thats partially what would bring official numbers up a bit, but not real life.

I don't understand this sentence, in particular the word "off". Did you mean that "mild-hybrid was unavailable for the press prototype" or "mild-hybrid was off-target when it comes to MPG"? Did Mazda plan to combine SkyActiv-X with mild hybrid? I could be missing something here.

spwolf

it apparently is knocking away to the oblivion still.

Care to explain? Was the press prototype engine knocking? It sounds funny since No.1 rule for drivetrain engineer is never allow a knocking engine on the road.

ssun30

I don't understand this sentence, in particular the word "off". Did you mean that "mild-hybrid was unavailable for the press prototype" or "mild-hybrid was off-target when it comes to MPG"? Did Mazda plan to combine SkyActiv-X with mild hybrid? I could be missing something here.



Care to explain? Was the press prototype engine knocking? It sounds funny since No.1 rule for drivetrain engineer is never allow a knocking engine on the road.

It was turned off... I would guess it is new 48v system that will also turn off engine at low speeds like 7mph, not just at stop. So it will help with in town mpg.

As to knocking, very loud despite a lot more special sound deadening... But that's something they will have to fix by launch, so it should not be that bad . However I suspect it will sound always like diesel.

Knocking won't be ever completely solved , it happens when it changes between combustion methods. Engine has been strengthen to diesel like level to deal with this.

ssun30

I don't understand this sentence, in particular the word "off". Did you mean that "mild-hybrid was unavailable for the press prototype" or "mild-hybrid was off-target when it comes to MPG"? Did Mazda plan to combine SkyActiv-X with mild hybrid? I could be missing something here.



Care to explain? Was the press prototype engine knocking? It sounds funny since No.1 rule for drivetrain engineer is never allow a knocking engine on the road.

It was turned off... I would guess it is new 48v system that will also turn off engine at low speeds like 7mph, not just at stop. So it will help with in town mpg.

As to knocking, very loud despite a lot more special sound deadening... But that's something they will have to fix by launch, so it should not be that bad . However I suspect it will sound always like diesel.

Knocking won't be ever completely solved , it happens when it changes between combustion methods. Engine has been strengthen to diesel like level to deal with this.

ssun30

I don't understand this sentence, in particular the word "off". Did you mean that "mild-hybrid was unavailable for the press prototype" or "mild-hybrid was off-target when it comes to MPG"? Did Mazda plan to combine SkyActiv-X with mild hybrid? I could be missing something here.



Care to explain? Was the press prototype engine knocking? It sounds funny since No.1 rule for drivetrain engineer is never allow a knocking engine on the road.

It was turned off... I would guess it is new 48v system that will also turn off engine at low speeds like 7mph, not just at stop. So it will help with in town mpg.

As to knocking, very loud despite a lot more special sound deadening... But that's something they will have to fix by launch, so it should not be that bad . However I suspect it will sound always like diesel.

Knocking won't be ever completely solved , it happens when it changes between combustion methods. Engine has been strengthen to diesel like level to deal with this.

krew

Internal Combustion Engines Remain Priority at Toyota

90% of all Toyota vehicles will still have a gas or gas-electric powertrain by 2030.

View the original article post

krew

Internal Combustion Engines Remain Priority at Toyota

90% of all Toyota vehicles will still have a gas or gas-electric powertrain by 2030.

View the original article post

krew

Internal Combustion Engines Remain Priority at Toyota

90% of all Toyota vehicles will still have a gas or gas-electric powertrain by 2030.

View the original article post

Anyone remember the Yaris Hybrid R concept from about 5 years ago? That was a sick little concept car. Too bad they never actually built one for production.

https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyota-yaris-hybrid-r-420hp-hybrid-powertrain-details-revealed/

I guess the tech is still in development in some form or another. E-Four AWD is coming, and was mentioned in the OP's linked article.

Speaking of which, the OP article states that E-Four will feature 30% more torque than the current systems. A quick search on Google says that the Prius AWD has a 5kW rear axle motor while the larger Highlander features a 50kW motor. Both of those are a far cry from the dual 60HP/45kW motors on the HybridR.

I've seen a statement somewhere recently that the Avalon/ES won't be getting AWD "yet." Perhaps, it'll be on the hybrid versions. Perhaps, they'll make a HybridR-inspired version of the V6, which could be a beast with the upgraded rear axle motors and KERS-style regenerative braking.

Anyone remember the Yaris Hybrid R concept from about 5 years ago? That was a sick little concept car. Too bad they never actually built one for production.

https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyota-yaris-hybrid-r-420hp-hybrid-powertrain-details-revealed/

I guess the tech is still in development in some form or another. E-Four AWD is coming, and was mentioned in the OP's linked article.

Speaking of which, the OP article states that E-Four will feature 30% more torque than the current systems. A quick search on Google says that the Prius AWD has a 5kW rear axle motor while the larger Highlander features a 50kW motor. Both of those are a far cry from the dual 60HP/45kW motors on the HybridR.

I've seen a statement somewhere recently that the Avalon/ES won't be getting AWD "yet." Perhaps, it'll be on the hybrid versions. Perhaps, they'll make a HybridR-inspired version of the V6, which could be a beast with the upgraded rear axle motors and KERS-style regenerative braking.

Anyone remember the Yaris Hybrid R concept from about 5 years ago? That was a sick little concept car. Too bad they never actually built one for production.

https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyota-yaris-hybrid-r-420hp-hybrid-powertrain-details-revealed/

I guess the tech is still in development in some form or another. E-Four AWD is coming, and was mentioned in the OP's linked article.

Speaking of which, the OP article states that E-Four will feature 30% more torque than the current systems. A quick search on Google says that the Prius AWD has a 5kW rear axle motor while the larger Highlander features a 50kW motor. Both of those are a far cry from the dual 60HP/45kW motors on the HybridR.

I've seen a statement somewhere recently that the Avalon/ES won't be getting AWD "yet." Perhaps, it'll be on the hybrid versions. Perhaps, they'll make a HybridR-inspired version of the V6, which could be a beast with the upgraded rear axle motors and KERS-style regenerative braking.

In other words, 1-1.5 million BEVs or FCEVs by 2030. That's a lot of underpromising considering chinese and japanese domestic markets could eat up 500k in capacity each. Let's hope they overdeliver.

In other words, 1-1.5 million BEVs or FCEVs by 2030. That's a lot of underpromising considering chinese and japanese domestic markets could eat up 500k in capacity each. Let's hope they overdeliver.

In other words, 1-1.5 million BEVs or FCEVs by 2030. That's a lot of underpromising considering chinese and japanese domestic markets could eat up 500k in capacity each. Let's hope they overdeliver.

When I was making speculations on the powertrain lineup for the next IS, I came across an idea that never appeared to me in the original analysis: could Toyota have already teased what hybrid systems their future GA-L vehicles will have?

I originally thought it's weird they did not show any other GA-L based hybrid system other than the multi-stage. But we know this is a very expensive system that will unlikely be used on an IS. The multi(four)-stage is an evolution of the GS450h drivetrain with the two-stage Ravigenaux gear system; that was an expensive drivetrain as well, which is why GS450h were manufactured in very limited numbers. For the IS300h they had a dedicated longitudinal hybrid system which is more powerful than the transverse hybrid 300h on the ES or NX. In the press release we didn't find any place for a similar low-cost hybrid system for GA-L: the one above the THS-II 2.5L is obviously destined for the next Highlander and RX which are transverse FWD.

My speculation is that Toyota will no longer make separate longitudinal and transverse hybrid systems (with the exception of the multi-stage at the top, obviously). Instead their new parallel-axis hybrid systems could be easily modified to fit in either types of layout. This further reduces cost and make integration of hybrid powertrain much easier.

I think it's safe to say the next IS300h will feature a variant of the 215hp THS-II 2.5L system. Performance and MPG numbers are therefore quite easy to predict now. It does leave the question though what they are going to do to replace the 450h system on the RX?

When I was making speculations on the powertrain lineup for the next IS, I came across an idea that never appeared to me in the original analysis: could Toyota have already teased what hybrid systems their future GA-L vehicles will have?

I originally thought it's weird they did not show any other GA-L based hybrid system other than the multi-stage. But we know this is a very expensive system that will unlikely be used on an IS. The multi(four)-stage is an evolution of the GS450h drivetrain with the two-stage Ravigenaux gear system; that was an expensive drivetrain as well, which is why GS450h were manufactured in very limited numbers. For the IS300h they had a dedicated longitudinal hybrid system which is more powerful than the transverse hybrid 300h on the ES or NX. In the press release we didn't find any place for a similar low-cost hybrid system for GA-L: the one above the THS-II 2.5L is obviously destined for the next Highlander and RX which are transverse FWD.

My speculation is that Toyota will no longer make separate longitudinal and transverse hybrid systems (with the exception of the multi-stage at the top, obviously). Instead their new parallel-axis hybrid systems could be easily modified to fit in either types of layout. This further reduces cost and make integration of hybrid powertrain much easier.

I think it's safe to say the next IS300h will feature a variant of the 215hp THS-II 2.5L system. Performance and MPG numbers are therefore quite easy to predict now. It does leave the question though what they are going to do to replace the 450h system on the RX?

When I was making speculations on the powertrain lineup for the next IS, I came across an idea that never appeared to me in the original analysis: could Toyota have already teased what hybrid systems their future GA-L vehicles will have?

I originally thought it's weird they did not show any other GA-L based hybrid system other than the multi-stage. But we know this is a very expensive system that will unlikely be used on an IS. The multi(four)-stage is an evolution of the GS450h drivetrain with the two-stage Ravigenaux gear system; that was an expensive drivetrain as well, which is why GS450h were manufactured in very limited numbers. For the IS300h they had a dedicated longitudinal hybrid system which is more powerful than the transverse hybrid 300h on the ES or NX. In the press release we didn't find any place for a similar low-cost hybrid system for GA-L: the one above the THS-II 2.5L is obviously destined for the next Highlander and RX which are transverse FWD.

My speculation is that Toyota will no longer make separate longitudinal and transverse hybrid systems (with the exception of the multi-stage at the top, obviously). Instead their new parallel-axis hybrid systems could be easily modified to fit in either types of layout. This further reduces cost and make integration of hybrid powertrain much easier.

I think it's safe to say the next IS300h will feature a variant of the 215hp THS-II 2.5L system. Performance and MPG numbers are therefore quite easy to predict now. It does leave the question though what they are going to do to replace the 450h system on the RX?

Lexus UK manager (largest market in EU by far) confirms Lexus will have plugins for sale in 2020:

Do you see any benefit in moving to plug-in hybrids and fuel cell vehicles in the next few years?

Some of our models will have a plug-in – we can’t confirm specifically which ones yet – in around two-and-a half years’ time. We haven’t got a date for [fuel cells], but it will be on the back of LS. There’s no firm commitment in time to introduce it, but I would imagine the next two or three years is realistic.

http://evfleetworld.co.uk/qa-ewan-shepherd-md-lexus-uk/

- LS will be only fuel cell for Lexus
- Multiple models for plugins on sale by 2020.
- This will be based on market - for instance in UK, plugins are 3/4 of EV/PHEV sales due to incentive package.
- In China Toyota says 10 models on sale in 2020. This is going to be EVs due to the incentives favoring EVs.
- Toyota is also preparing for EV production in USA in 2020. We have had reports about them working with suppliers in NA on EV from 2016 and 2017. So maybe new Rav4? Since it is locally produced.

I am thinking that Lexus can easily do PHEV versions of all of their hybrid systems, like Toyota did for Prime. If they can bring the costs down, and new TNGA already accounts for this, we could see extra 10 kwh in battery capacity for plugins, which also unlocks extra 100hp in power... so IS300h becomes 300hp vehicle... LS500h becomes 450hp vehicle. All these cars have powerful electric motors already, just like Prius did, question is just of maximum battery output which is limited by size of the battery.

In regular hybrid mode, they would have maybe 20-30hp extra, but in performance mode it could have extra 100hp at the cost of "consumption".

Lexus UK manager (largest market in EU by far) confirms Lexus will have plugins for sale in 2020:

Do you see any benefit in moving to plug-in hybrids and fuel cell vehicles in the next few years?

Some of our models will have a plug-in – we can’t confirm specifically which ones yet – in around two-and-a half years’ time. We haven’t got a date for [fuel cells], but it will be on the back of LS. There’s no firm commitment in time to introduce it, but I would imagine the next two or three years is realistic.

http://evfleetworld.co.uk/qa-ewan-shepherd-md-lexus-uk/

- LS will be only fuel cell for Lexus
- Multiple models for plugins on sale by 2020.
- This will be based on market - for instance in UK, plugins are 3/4 of EV/PHEV sales due to incentive package.
- In China Toyota says 10 models on sale in 2020. This is going to be EVs due to the incentives favoring EVs.
- Toyota is also preparing for EV production in USA in 2020. We have had reports about them working with suppliers in NA on EV from 2016 and 2017. So maybe new Rav4? Since it is locally produced.

I am thinking that Lexus can easily do PHEV versions of all of their hybrid systems, like Toyota did for Prime. If they can bring the costs down, and new TNGA already accounts for this, we could see extra 10 kwh in battery capacity for plugins, which also unlocks extra 100hp in power... so IS300h becomes 300hp vehicle... LS500h becomes 450hp vehicle. All these cars have powerful electric motors already, just like Prius did, question is just of maximum battery output which is limited by size of the battery.

In regular hybrid mode, they would have maybe 20-30hp extra, but in performance mode it could have extra 100hp at the cost of "consumption".

Lexus UK manager (largest market in EU by far) confirms Lexus will have plugins for sale in 2020:

Do you see any benefit in moving to plug-in hybrids and fuel cell vehicles in the next few years?

Some of our models will have a plug-in – we can’t confirm specifically which ones yet – in around two-and-a half years’ time. We haven’t got a date for [fuel cells], but it will be on the back of LS. There’s no firm commitment in time to introduce it, but I would imagine the next two or three years is realistic.

http://evfleetworld.co.uk/qa-ewan-shepherd-md-lexus-uk/

- LS will be only fuel cell for Lexus
- Multiple models for plugins on sale by 2020.
- This will be based on market - for instance in UK, plugins are 3/4 of EV/PHEV sales due to incentive package.
- In China Toyota says 10 models on sale in 2020. This is going to be EVs due to the incentives favoring EVs.
- Toyota is also preparing for EV production in USA in 2020. We have had reports about them working with suppliers in NA on EV from 2016 and 2017. So maybe new Rav4? Since it is locally produced.

I am thinking that Lexus can easily do PHEV versions of all of their hybrid systems, like Toyota did for Prime. If they can bring the costs down, and new TNGA already accounts for this, we could see extra 10 kwh in battery capacity for plugins, which also unlocks extra 100hp in power... so IS300h becomes 300hp vehicle... LS500h becomes 450hp vehicle. All these cars have powerful electric motors already, just like Prius did, question is just of maximum battery output which is limited by size of the battery.

In regular hybrid mode, they would have maybe 20-30hp extra, but in performance mode it could have extra 100hp at the cost of "consumption".

A thought I just had was maybe they're going to come out with more new/updated engines that are not in the Dynamic Force family. For example, the 2GR-FE/FSE have been replaced with the -FKS variant instead of an all-new "V35A-FKS." Specifically, I believe that the 3UR (Tundra, LX570, etc...) will get an -FKS update. The Tacoma's 2TR may also get such an update.

This would mean that the trucks can get new engines without taking up any of those 2 slots above or that 1 below the V35A-FTS in the graphic posted by the OP. As I understand, that set of DF engines should only cover the next couple years. These relatively minor updates can be a cheap stopgap while Toyota decides on what to work on next.

A thought I just had was maybe they're going to come out with more new/updated engines that are not in the Dynamic Force family. For example, the 2GR-FE/FSE have been replaced with the -FKS variant instead of an all-new "V35A-FKS." Specifically, I believe that the 3UR (Tundra, LX570, etc...) will get an -FKS update. The Tacoma's 2TR may also get such an update.

This would mean that the trucks can get new engines without taking up any of those 2 slots above or that 1 below the V35A-FTS in the graphic posted by the OP. As I understand, that set of DF engines should only cover the next couple years. These relatively minor updates can be a cheap stopgap while Toyota decides on what to work on next.

A thought I just had was maybe they're going to come out with more new/updated engines that are not in the Dynamic Force family. For example, the 2GR-FE/FSE have been replaced with the -FKS variant instead of an all-new "V35A-FKS." Specifically, I believe that the 3UR (Tundra, LX570, etc...) will get an -FKS update. The Tacoma's 2TR may also get such an update.

This would mean that the trucks can get new engines without taking up any of those 2 slots above or that 1 below the V35A-FTS in the graphic posted by the OP. As I understand, that set of DF engines should only cover the next couple years. These relatively minor updates can be a cheap stopgap while Toyota decides on what to work on next.

TheNerdyPotato

A thought I just had was maybe they're going to come out with more new/updated engines that are not in the Dynamic Force family. For example, the 2GR-FE/FSE have been replaced with the -FKS variant instead of an all-new "V35A-FKS." Specifically, I believe that the 3UR (Tundra, LX570, etc...) will get an -FKS update. The Tacoma's 2TR may also get such an update.

This would mean that the trucks can get new engines without taking up any of those 2 slots above or that 1 below the V35A-FTS in the graphic posted by the OP. As I understand, that set of DF engines should only cover the next couple years. These relatively minor updates can be a cheap stopgap while Toyota decides on what to work on next.

i think all the non-tnga updates have already been done.

so those two engines will certainly include truck V8.

TheNerdyPotato

A thought I just had was maybe they're going to come out with more new/updated engines that are not in the Dynamic Force family. For example, the 2GR-FE/FSE have been replaced with the -FKS variant instead of an all-new "V35A-FKS." Specifically, I believe that the 3UR (Tundra, LX570, etc...) will get an -FKS update. The Tacoma's 2TR may also get such an update.

This would mean that the trucks can get new engines without taking up any of those 2 slots above or that 1 below the V35A-FTS in the graphic posted by the OP. As I understand, that set of DF engines should only cover the next couple years. These relatively minor updates can be a cheap stopgap while Toyota decides on what to work on next.

i think all the non-tnga updates have already been done.

so those two engines will certainly include truck V8.

TheNerdyPotato

A thought I just had was maybe they're going to come out with more new/updated engines that are not in the Dynamic Force family. For example, the 2GR-FE/FSE have been replaced with the -FKS variant instead of an all-new "V35A-FKS." Specifically, I believe that the 3UR (Tundra, LX570, etc...) will get an -FKS update. The Tacoma's 2TR may also get such an update.

This would mean that the trucks can get new engines without taking up any of those 2 slots above or that 1 below the V35A-FTS in the graphic posted by the OP. As I understand, that set of DF engines should only cover the next couple years. These relatively minor updates can be a cheap stopgap while Toyota decides on what to work on next.

i think all the non-tnga updates have already been done.

so those two engines will certainly include truck V8.

spwolf

I am thinking that Lexus can easily do PHEV versions of all of their hybrid systems, like Toyota did for Prime. If they can bring the costs down, and new TNGA already accounts for this, we could see extra 10 kwh in battery capacity for plugins, which also unlocks extra 100hp in power... so IS300h becomes 300hp vehicle... LS500h becomes 450hp vehicle. All these cars have powerful electric motors already, just like Prius did, question is just of maximum battery output which is limited by size of the battery.

In regular hybrid mode, they would have maybe 20-30hp extra, but in performance mode it could have extra 100hp at the cost of "consumption".

That's not how the maths works for input-split hybrid. The hybrid transaxle can only handle a limited amount of power so for PHVs the maximum combined output is not the sum of the ICE and the traction battery (it is for regular hybrids because their batteries are very small). TNGA hybrids focus heavily on 'motor downsizing', which means the motors are designed to be minimum size required to achieve the designed output for regular hybrid operations. That's why the Prime has that clutch to allow both MG1 and MG2 to drive the wheels in EV mode. Bigger hybrid systems might gain a few horsepower, but 100hp extra is highly unlikely. The multi-stage still has some over-provisioning, so it could be the only one getting significant gains.