Lexus August 2018 Sales Report

ssun30

Yes, Nissan and Mazda are definitely ahead when each of them has grabbed one of the (two) holy grails of internal combustion i.e. variable compression and HCCI. Mazda is not at full HCCI yet as it needed to make some compromises to make it work, hence SkyActiv-X is SCCI for the time being.

However the more important question is whether these technologies can trickle down their product lineup cheaply. I highly doubt Nissan can get VC-T to work on its lower-end offerings in this generation. On the other hand Mazda did a good job controlling costs with SkyActiv-G; given their track record I would say SkyActiv-X is more promising than VC-T. That is assuming Mazda carefully resolved NOx emission problems so we don't get a Dieselgate 2.0 here.

Also, Nissan and Mazda have basically given up on six cylinders and above, it shouldn't be a surprise they are much maneuvrable in ICE technology front.

At this point it's still unknown which of these two directions (a combination of the two won't be expected until near 2030s) Dynamic Force II will go. Given they were already working on a turbocharged Prius since early 2010s, Variable Compression Turbocharging should be their next step. But don't expect Dynamic Force II to appear on other vehicles (non-Prius) too soon.

Remember Dynamic Force I with hybridization is instant 30%+ better MPG so they have a lot of room to work with, and we know hybrids is their strongest expertise. If they keep increasing the economy of scale their hybrid package will reach cost parity with gas-only variants in the near future (they already achieved that in China). In that sense, the ICE component needs to stay cheap; adding more expensive tech to it will reduce the available budget for hybrid components.

While the Nissan's new engine is a marvel, the specs don't really wow anyone. Barely a bump over the VQ engine in regards to MPG and power is average. We also need to see how long term durability is.

ssun30

Yes, Nissan and Mazda are definitely ahead when each of them has grabbed one of the (two) holy grails of internal combustion i.e. variable compression and HCCI. Mazda is not at full HCCI yet as it needed to make some compromises to make it work, hence SkyActiv-X is SCCI for the time being.

However the more important question is whether these technologies can trickle down their product lineup cheaply. I highly doubt Nissan can get VC-T to work on its lower-end offerings in this generation. On the other hand Mazda did a good job controlling costs with SkyActiv-G; given their track record I would say SkyActiv-X is more promising than VC-T. That is assuming Mazda carefully resolved NOx emission problems so we don't get a Dieselgate 2.0 here.

Also, Nissan and Mazda have basically given up on six cylinders and above, it shouldn't be a surprise they are much maneuvrable in ICE technology front.

At this point it's still unknown which of these two directions (a combination of the two won't be expected until near 2030s) Dynamic Force II will go. Given they were already working on a turbocharged Prius since early 2010s, Variable Compression Turbocharging should be their next step. But don't expect Dynamic Force II to appear on other vehicles (non-Prius) too soon.

Remember Dynamic Force I with hybridization is instant 30%+ better MPG so they have a lot of room to work with, and we know hybrids is their strongest expertise. If they keep increasing the economy of scale their hybrid package will reach cost parity with gas-only variants in the near future (they already achieved that in China). In that sense, the ICE component needs to stay cheap; adding more expensive tech to it will reduce the available budget for hybrid components.

While the Nissan's new engine is a marvel, the specs don't really wow anyone. Barely a bump over the VQ engine in regards to MPG and power is average. We also need to see how long term durability is.

Toyota really has nowhere to go but to bank all-in on conventional hybrid and try to achieve price parity with gasoline powered only vehicles. I don't see them coming out with a competitive EV anytime soon. I'm pretty much sure they are aware of FCVs being dead market by now but R&D in that department could serve them as a test bed for EV technology I guess. Will have to see what's the future when it comes to turbo fours and if DF is going to change any of that for better. And probably the most important and relevant question when it comes to hybrid tech what will they do about PHEV, that is the only logical step forward from their Hybrid Synergy.

I'm personally mostly interested in their RWD hybrid program and I'm curious if they will ever achieve price parity. It's so freakin complex and they keep on adding more stuff to it (like 4 speed auto) that I'm wondering if they have a long term plan for it at all. Their RWD hybrids might end up being PHEVs with ICE range extenders to justify the price spread between gasoline model and hybrid in RWD vehicles. I don't know I'm just guessing here but what I do know is that $10,000 difference between RWD car with the gasoline engine and exact same RWD car with exact same gasoline engine with mounted hybrid components will get them nowhere.

Toyota really has nowhere to go but to bank all-in on conventional hybrid and try to achieve price parity with gasoline powered only vehicles. I don't see them coming out with a competitive EV anytime soon. I'm pretty much sure they are aware of FCVs being dead market by now but R&D in that department could serve them as a test bed for EV technology I guess. Will have to see what's the future when it comes to turbo fours and if DF is going to change any of that for better. And probably the most important and relevant question when it comes to hybrid tech what will they do about PHEV, that is the only logical step forward from their Hybrid Synergy.

I'm personally mostly interested in their RWD hybrid program and I'm curious if they will ever achieve price parity. It's so freakin complex and they keep on adding more stuff to it (like 4 speed auto) that I'm wondering if they have a long term plan for it at all. Their RWD hybrids might end up being PHEVs with ICE range extenders to justify the price spread between gasoline model and hybrid in RWD vehicles. I don't know I'm just guessing here but what I do know is that $10,000 difference between RWD car with the gasoline engine and exact same RWD car with exact same gasoline engine with mounted hybrid components will get them nowhere.

Toyota really has nowhere to go but to bank all-in on conventional hybrid and try to achieve price parity with gasoline powered only vehicles. I don't see them coming out with a competitive EV anytime soon. I'm pretty much sure they are aware of FCVs being dead market by now but R&D in that department could serve them as a test bed for EV technology I guess. Will have to see what's the future when it comes to turbo fours and if DF is going to change any of that for better. And probably the most important and relevant question when it comes to hybrid tech what will they do about PHEV, that is the only logical step forward from their Hybrid Synergy.

I'm personally mostly interested in their RWD hybrid program and I'm curious if they will ever achieve price parity. It's so freakin complex and they keep on adding more stuff to it (like 4 speed auto) that I'm wondering if they have a long term plan for it at all. Their RWD hybrids might end up being PHEVs with ICE range extenders to justify the price spread between gasoline model and hybrid in RWD vehicles. I don't know I'm just guessing here but what I do know is that $10,000 difference between RWD car with the gasoline engine and exact same RWD car with exact same gasoline engine with mounted hybrid components will get them nowhere.

ssun30

Yes, Nissan and Mazda are definitely ahead when each of them has grabbed one of the (two) holy grails of internal combustion i.e. variable compression and HCCI. Mazda is not at full HCCI yet as it needed to make some compromises to make it work, hence SkyActiv-X is SCCI for the time being...

At this point it's still unknown which of these two directions (a combination of the two won't be expected until near 2030s)...

Ever since I started reading about Nissan's VC and Mazda's Skyactiv-X, I've been wondering whether the two could be combined, or if it was even worth doing so. Alas, the automotive press, to my knowledge, has remained silent on this subject. Yours is the first comment and guesstimate I've ever seen on the subject.

ssun30

Yes, Nissan and Mazda are definitely ahead when each of them has grabbed one of the (two) holy grails of internal combustion i.e. variable compression and HCCI. Mazda is not at full HCCI yet as it needed to make some compromises to make it work, hence SkyActiv-X is SCCI for the time being...

At this point it's still unknown which of these two directions (a combination of the two won't be expected until near 2030s)...

Ever since I started reading about Nissan's VC and Mazda's Skyactiv-X, I've been wondering whether the two could be combined, or if it was even worth doing so. Alas, the automotive press, to my knowledge, has remained silent on this subject. Yours is the first comment and guesstimate I've ever seen on the subject.

ssun30

Yes, Nissan and Mazda are definitely ahead when each of them has grabbed one of the (two) holy grails of internal combustion i.e. variable compression and HCCI. Mazda is not at full HCCI yet as it needed to make some compromises to make it work, hence SkyActiv-X is SCCI for the time being...

At this point it's still unknown which of these two directions (a combination of the two won't be expected until near 2030s)...

Ever since I started reading about Nissan's VC and Mazda's Skyactiv-X, I've been wondering whether the two could be combined, or if it was even worth doing so. Alas, the automotive press, to my knowledge, has remained silent on this subject. Yours is the first comment and guesstimate I've ever seen on the subject.

Tech that would be worth for ICE, is infinitely variable timing (cam-less). But I doubt we'll see this. It is a pity the perfect ICE does not exist, but with electric tech, I am more interested in the simplest ICE.

Regarding batteries, I do not know if I want the holy grail of batteries to exist, because then some other products, not automotive would also start having success: smartwatches and other IOT devices. Those are maybe not bad, but what about killer robots with AI that can run for months on a battery? Killer drones that can fly for weeks?

Tech that would be worth for ICE, is infinitely variable timing (cam-less). But I doubt we'll see this. It is a pity the perfect ICE does not exist, but with electric tech, I am more interested in the simplest ICE.

Regarding batteries, I do not know if I want the holy grail of batteries to exist, because then some other products, not automotive would also start having success: smartwatches and other IOT devices. Those are maybe not bad, but what about killer robots with AI that can run for months on a battery? Killer drones that can fly for weeks?

Tech that would be worth for ICE, is infinitely variable timing (cam-less). But I doubt we'll see this. It is a pity the perfect ICE does not exist, but with electric tech, I am more interested in the simplest ICE.

Regarding batteries, I do not know if I want the holy grail of batteries to exist, because then some other products, not automotive would also start having success: smartwatches and other IOT devices. Those are maybe not bad, but what about killer robots with AI that can run for months on a battery? Killer drones that can fly for weeks?

Levi

Tech that would be worth for ICE, is infinitely variable timing (cam-less).

I remember reading a patent that, IIRC, was owned by Toyota, which described a solenoid-controlled valvetrain. It had a pair of valve springs on each valve. One pushes the valve open and the other closed. When the system is off, the springs hold the valve in a partial-open position. The valve stem is made f a non-magnetic material (titanium?) with a ferromagnetic piece in the middle, between the springs. There are then two electromagnets, one above and below, which alternate on and off to pull on the ferromagnetic piece, which opens and closes the valve.

It's a neat idea. I don't know how energy efficient it would be because that would take a lot of electrical power to make it work, but it does have the benefit IVVTL. Perhaps, with more advanced materials and electronics, it could work. I'm not 100% sure that my description is accurate since I saw that patent about 5 years ago. If I can find it again, I can post a link.

Edit: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6332446

Levi

Tech that would be worth for ICE, is infinitely variable timing (cam-less).

I remember reading a patent that, IIRC, was owned by Toyota, which described a solenoid-controlled valvetrain. It had a pair of valve springs on each valve. One pushes the valve open and the other closed. When the system is off, the springs hold the valve in a partial-open position. The valve stem is made f a non-magnetic material (titanium?) with a ferromagnetic piece in the middle, between the springs. There are then two electromagnets, one above and below, which alternate on and off to pull on the ferromagnetic piece, which opens and closes the valve.

It's a neat idea. I don't know how energy efficient it would be because that would take a lot of electrical power to make it work, but it does have the benefit IVVTL. Perhaps, with more advanced materials and electronics, it could work. I'm not 100% sure that my description is accurate since I saw that patent about 5 years ago. If I can find it again, I can post a link.

Edit: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6332446

Levi

Tech that would be worth for ICE, is infinitely variable timing (cam-less).

I remember reading a patent that, IIRC, was owned by Toyota, which described a solenoid-controlled valvetrain. It had a pair of valve springs on each valve. One pushes the valve open and the other closed. When the system is off, the springs hold the valve in a partial-open position. The valve stem is made f a non-magnetic material (titanium?) with a ferromagnetic piece in the middle, between the springs. There are then two electromagnets, one above and below, which alternate on and off to pull on the ferromagnetic piece, which opens and closes the valve.

It's a neat idea. I don't know how energy efficient it would be because that would take a lot of electrical power to make it work, but it does have the benefit IVVTL. Perhaps, with more advanced materials and electronics, it could work. I'm not 100% sure that my description is accurate since I saw that patent about 5 years ago. If I can find it again, I can post a link.

Edit: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6332446

TheNerdyPotato

I remember reading a patent that, IIRC, was owned by Toyota, which described a solenoid-controlled valvetrain. It had a pair of valve springs on each valve. One pushes the valve open and the other closed. When the system is off, the springs hold the valve in a partial-open position. The valve stem is made f a non-magnetic material (titanium?) with a ferromagnetic piece in the middle, between the springs. There are then two electromagnets, one above and below, which alternate on and off to pull on the ferromagnetic piece, which opens and closes the valve.

It's a neat idea. I don't know how energy efficient it would be because that would take a lot of electrical power to make it work, but it does have the benefit IVVTL. Perhaps, with more advanced materials and electronics, it could work. I'm not 100% sure that my description is accurate since I saw that patent about 5 years ago. If I can find it again, I can post a link.

Edit: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6332446

It looks exactly like Freevalve by Koenigsegg. Didn't know Toyota patented it.

TheNerdyPotato

I remember reading a patent that, IIRC, was owned by Toyota, which described a solenoid-controlled valvetrain. It had a pair of valve springs on each valve. One pushes the valve open and the other closed. When the system is off, the springs hold the valve in a partial-open position. The valve stem is made f a non-magnetic material (titanium?) with a ferromagnetic piece in the middle, between the springs. There are then two electromagnets, one above and below, which alternate on and off to pull on the ferromagnetic piece, which opens and closes the valve.

It's a neat idea. I don't know how energy efficient it would be because that would take a lot of electrical power to make it work, but it does have the benefit IVVTL. Perhaps, with more advanced materials and electronics, it could work. I'm not 100% sure that my description is accurate since I saw that patent about 5 years ago. If I can find it again, I can post a link.

Edit: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6332446

It looks exactly like Freevalve by Koenigsegg. Didn't know Toyota patented it.

TheNerdyPotato

I remember reading a patent that, IIRC, was owned by Toyota, which described a solenoid-controlled valvetrain. It had a pair of valve springs on each valve. One pushes the valve open and the other closed. When the system is off, the springs hold the valve in a partial-open position. The valve stem is made f a non-magnetic material (titanium?) with a ferromagnetic piece in the middle, between the springs. There are then two electromagnets, one above and below, which alternate on and off to pull on the ferromagnetic piece, which opens and closes the valve.

It's a neat idea. I don't know how energy efficient it would be because that would take a lot of electrical power to make it work, but it does have the benefit IVVTL. Perhaps, with more advanced materials and electronics, it could work. I'm not 100% sure that my description is accurate since I saw that patent about 5 years ago. If I can find it again, I can post a link.

Edit: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6332446

It looks exactly like Freevalve by Koenigsegg. Didn't know Toyota patented it.

Levi

It looks exactly like Freevalve by Koenigsegg. Didn't know Toyota patented it.

Not the same, but they perform the same function. Here's a youtube video that explains the Freevalve. Spoiler: Freevalve is mostly pneumatic instead of all-electric.

Levi

It looks exactly like Freevalve by Koenigsegg. Didn't know Toyota patented it.

Not the same, but they perform the same function. Here's a youtube video that explains the Freevalve. Spoiler: Freevalve is mostly pneumatic instead of all-electric.

Levi

It looks exactly like Freevalve by Koenigsegg. Didn't know Toyota patented it.

Not the same, but they perform the same function. Here's a youtube video that explains the Freevalve. Spoiler: Freevalve is mostly pneumatic instead of all-electric.

Joaquin Ruhi

Ever since I started reading about Nissan's VC and Mazda's Skyactiv-X, I've been wondering whether the two could be combined, or if it was even worth doing so. Alas, the automotive press, to my knowledge, has remained silent on this subject. Yours is the first comment and guesstimate I've ever seen on the subject.

I think my estimate was based on a very old EPA paper from ten years ago. In that analysis they projected the timeframe for ICE technologies to trickle down into mainstream. They correctly predicted dual VVT, dual-injection, and Miller-cycle operation to become standard before 2020. They incorrectly predicted continuous VVL to be cheap enough to be widely adopted, but as of 2018 only BMW and FCA use it extensively (while Honda/Nissan/Toyota limited CVVL to selected applications).

VC is a pre-requisite for HCCI operation to avoid nasty NOx problems. My prediction is that Mazda will keep refining Skyactiv-X and come close to 48% thermal efficiency around 2025, while the industry play catch-up until near 2030 (SkyActiv-G was almost 5 years ahead of its time).

mediumhot

I'm personally mostly interested in their RWD hybrid program and I'm curious if they will ever achieve price parity. It's so freakin complex and they keep on adding more stuff to it (like 4 speed auto) that I'm wondering if they have a long term plan for it at all.

I do agree the multi-stage THS is unneccessarily complex. Ever since the original GS450h they kept adding components to the system that it has blown up in complexity and weight. Meanwhile their transverse FWD hybrid package has become really cheap, compact, efficient, and gets the job done.

From one literature review that I read recently, it seems that TMC had never had consistency in its RWD hybrid programs. Their longitudinal hybrid powertrains are always experimental and not optimized for mass production. They have the same problem with their E-Four applications, which are super complex and inefficient.

The fundamental problem is still their battery tech (or their conservative approach to new battery tech), which lacks in both power density and energy density, so they have to make up the deficit from mechanical tricks here and there.

The 500h is certainly impressive as it beats the old 600h system in every aspect imaginable. But they could do much, much better than that. The multi-stage THS needs consistency and modularity so engineers could keep working on refining it, instead of trying something new every time they need to develop a new hybrid system.

mediumhot

Their RWD hybrids might end up being PHEVs with ICE range extenders to justify the price spread between gasoline model and hybrid in RWD vehicles. I don't know I'm just guessing here but what I do know is that $10,000 difference between RWD car with the gasoline engine and exact same RWD car with exact same gasoline engine with mounted hybrid components will get them nowhere.

They won't be doing a RexEV on RWD because it makes no sense. What is your reasoning that it makes sense? RexEV and serial hybrid are both stupid ideas for high-power applications. That's why GM went down the same input-split serial-hybrid route on 2nd gen Volt.

mikeavelli

While the Nissan's new engine is a marvel, the specs don't really wow anyone. Barely a bump over the VQ engine in regards to MPG and power is average.

100kW(134hp)/L with 40% maximum thermal efficiency. That's the impressive part about it. Nobody builds any turbocharged engine even close to that kind of specs. Well I guess to the general public it's a little bit hard to comprehend. What they do understand is that it's mated to a hated CVT. What a missed opportunity there.

They also claim it has same level of NVH as V6, at least they have that going for them. But Honda said their 2.0T is as good as V6 too and we all know what happened to the new Accord.

Joaquin Ruhi

Ever since I started reading about Nissan's VC and Mazda's Skyactiv-X, I've been wondering whether the two could be combined, or if it was even worth doing so. Alas, the automotive press, to my knowledge, has remained silent on this subject. Yours is the first comment and guesstimate I've ever seen on the subject.

I think my estimate was based on a very old EPA paper from ten years ago. In that analysis they projected the timeframe for ICE technologies to trickle down into mainstream. They correctly predicted dual VVT, dual-injection, and Miller-cycle operation to become standard before 2020. They incorrectly predicted continuous VVL to be cheap enough to be widely adopted, but as of 2018 only BMW and FCA use it extensively (while Honda/Nissan/Toyota limited CVVL to selected applications).

VC is a pre-requisite for HCCI operation to avoid nasty NOx problems. My prediction is that Mazda will keep refining Skyactiv-X and come close to 48% thermal efficiency around 2025, while the industry play catch-up until near 2030 (SkyActiv-G was almost 5 years ahead of its time).

mediumhot

I'm personally mostly interested in their RWD hybrid program and I'm curious if they will ever achieve price parity. It's so freakin complex and they keep on adding more stuff to it (like 4 speed auto) that I'm wondering if they have a long term plan for it at all.

I do agree the multi-stage THS is unneccessarily complex. Ever since the original GS450h they kept adding components to the system that it has blown up in complexity and weight. Meanwhile their transverse FWD hybrid package has become really cheap, compact, efficient, and gets the job done.

From one literature review that I read recently, it seems that TMC had never had consistency in its RWD hybrid programs. Their longitudinal hybrid powertrains are always experimental and not optimized for mass production. They have the same problem with their E-Four applications, which are super complex and inefficient.

The fundamental problem is still their battery tech (or their conservative approach to new battery tech), which lacks in both power density and energy density, so they have to make up the deficit from mechanical tricks here and there.

The 500h is certainly impressive as it beats the old 600h system in every aspect imaginable. But they could do much, much better than that. The multi-stage THS needs consistency and modularity so engineers could keep working on refining it, instead of trying something new every time they need to develop a new hybrid system.

mediumhot

Their RWD hybrids might end up being PHEVs with ICE range extenders to justify the price spread between gasoline model and hybrid in RWD vehicles. I don't know I'm just guessing here but what I do know is that $10,000 difference between RWD car with the gasoline engine and exact same RWD car with exact same gasoline engine with mounted hybrid components will get them nowhere.

They won't be doing a RexEV on RWD because it makes no sense. What is your reasoning that it makes sense? RexEV and serial hybrid are both stupid ideas for high-power applications. That's why GM went down the same input-split serial-hybrid route on 2nd gen Volt.

mikeavelli

While the Nissan's new engine is a marvel, the specs don't really wow anyone. Barely a bump over the VQ engine in regards to MPG and power is average.

100kW(134hp)/L with 40% maximum thermal efficiency. That's the impressive part about it. Nobody builds any turbocharged engine even close to that kind of specs. Well I guess to the general public it's a little bit hard to comprehend. What they do understand is that it's mated to a hated CVT. What a missed opportunity there.

They also claim it has same level of NVH as V6, at least they have that going for them. But Honda said their 2.0T is as good as V6 too and we all know what happened to the new Accord.

Joaquin Ruhi

Ever since I started reading about Nissan's VC and Mazda's Skyactiv-X, I've been wondering whether the two could be combined, or if it was even worth doing so. Alas, the automotive press, to my knowledge, has remained silent on this subject. Yours is the first comment and guesstimate I've ever seen on the subject.

I think my estimate was based on a very old EPA paper from ten years ago. In that analysis they projected the timeframe for ICE technologies to trickle down into mainstream. They correctly predicted dual VVT, dual-injection, and Miller-cycle operation to become standard before 2020. They incorrectly predicted continuous VVL to be cheap enough to be widely adopted, but as of 2018 only BMW and FCA use it extensively (while Honda/Nissan/Toyota limited CVVL to selected applications).

VC is a pre-requisite for HCCI operation to avoid nasty NOx problems. My prediction is that Mazda will keep refining Skyactiv-X and come close to 48% thermal efficiency around 2025, while the industry play catch-up until near 2030 (SkyActiv-G was almost 5 years ahead of its time).

mediumhot

I'm personally mostly interested in their RWD hybrid program and I'm curious if they will ever achieve price parity. It's so freakin complex and they keep on adding more stuff to it (like 4 speed auto) that I'm wondering if they have a long term plan for it at all.

I do agree the multi-stage THS is unneccessarily complex. Ever since the original GS450h they kept adding components to the system that it has blown up in complexity and weight. Meanwhile their transverse FWD hybrid package has become really cheap, compact, efficient, and gets the job done.

From one literature review that I read recently, it seems that TMC had never had consistency in its RWD hybrid programs. Their longitudinal hybrid powertrains are always experimental and not optimized for mass production. They have the same problem with their E-Four applications, which are super complex and inefficient.

The fundamental problem is still their battery tech (or their conservative approach to new battery tech), which lacks in both power density and energy density, so they have to make up the deficit from mechanical tricks here and there.

The 500h is certainly impressive as it beats the old 600h system in every aspect imaginable. But they could do much, much better than that. The multi-stage THS needs consistency and modularity so engineers could keep working on refining it, instead of trying something new every time they need to develop a new hybrid system.

mediumhot

Their RWD hybrids might end up being PHEVs with ICE range extenders to justify the price spread between gasoline model and hybrid in RWD vehicles. I don't know I'm just guessing here but what I do know is that $10,000 difference between RWD car with the gasoline engine and exact same RWD car with exact same gasoline engine with mounted hybrid components will get them nowhere.

They won't be doing a RexEV on RWD because it makes no sense. What is your reasoning that it makes sense? RexEV and serial hybrid are both stupid ideas for high-power applications. That's why GM went down the same input-split serial-hybrid route on 2nd gen Volt.

mikeavelli

While the Nissan's new engine is a marvel, the specs don't really wow anyone. Barely a bump over the VQ engine in regards to MPG and power is average.

100kW(134hp)/L with 40% maximum thermal efficiency. That's the impressive part about it. Nobody builds any turbocharged engine even close to that kind of specs. Well I guess to the general public it's a little bit hard to comprehend. What they do understand is that it's mated to a hated CVT. What a missed opportunity there.

They also claim it has same level of NVH as V6, at least they have that going for them. But Honda said their 2.0T is as good as V6 too and we all know what happened to the new Accord.

@ssun30 Upcoming Skyactiv-X is nowhere close to hybrid level efficiency though, few first drives that report mpg, it was way below hybrid or diesel... for instance:
https://jalopnik.com/i-drove-mazda-s-holy-grail-of-gasoline-engines-and-it-w-1800874806
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...review-new-compression-ignition-petrol-engine
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/01/26/mazda-skyactiv-x-review-compression-ignition-engine/

with lower rpm range driving... so real life 14% improvement with faster engine and NVH like a diesel. Also price less than a diesel but more than petrol. It is also not replacement for their diesel, so it clearly wont get diesel mpg numbers, let alone hybrid.

@ssun30 Upcoming Skyactiv-X is nowhere close to hybrid level efficiency though, few first drives that report mpg, it was way below hybrid or diesel... for instance:
https://jalopnik.com/i-drove-mazda-s-holy-grail-of-gasoline-engines-and-it-w-1800874806
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...review-new-compression-ignition-petrol-engine
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/01/26/mazda-skyactiv-x-review-compression-ignition-engine/

with lower rpm range driving... so real life 14% improvement with faster engine and NVH like a diesel. Also price less than a diesel but more than petrol. It is also not replacement for their diesel, so it clearly wont get diesel mpg numbers, let alone hybrid.

@ssun30 Upcoming Skyactiv-X is nowhere close to hybrid level efficiency though, few first drives that report mpg, it was way below hybrid or diesel... for instance:
https://jalopnik.com/i-drove-mazda-s-holy-grail-of-gasoline-engines-and-it-w-1800874806
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/...review-new-compression-ignition-petrol-engine
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/01/26/mazda-skyactiv-x-review-compression-ignition-engine/

with lower rpm range driving... so real life 14% improvement with faster engine and NVH like a diesel. Also price less than a diesel but more than petrol. It is also not replacement for their diesel, so it clearly wont get diesel mpg numbers, let alone hybrid.

@spwolf I'd say let's wait for the production version before making any conclusive comments. Engine calibration is one of the later engineering stages so I'm sure the press prototypes are far from final.

Mazda could certainly need Toyota's help on full hybrids. I wonder how far their strategic alliance will go. Maybe when TMC feels secure enough it will buy out Subaru and Mazda.

@spwolf I'd say let's wait for the production version before making any conclusive comments. Engine calibration is one of the later engineering stages so I'm sure the press prototypes are far from final.

Mazda could certainly need Toyota's help on full hybrids. I wonder how far their strategic alliance will go. Maybe when TMC feels secure enough it will buy out Subaru and Mazda.

@spwolf I'd say let's wait for the production version before making any conclusive comments. Engine calibration is one of the later engineering stages so I'm sure the press prototypes are far from final.

Mazda could certainly need Toyota's help on full hybrids. I wonder how far their strategic alliance will go. Maybe when TMC feels secure enough it will buy out Subaru and Mazda.

ssun30

@spwolf I'd say let's wait for the production version before making any conclusive comments. Engine calibration is one of the later engineering stages so I'm sure the press prototypes are far from final.

Mazda could certainly need Toyota's help on full hybrids. I wonder how far their strategic alliance will go. Maybe when TMC feels secure enough it will buy out Subaru and Mazda.

Question is if they want to buy them, and vice versa... also Suzuki too.

As to the hybrids, problem with using this and hybrids is cost.

Reviews mentioned how mild-hybrid tech was off, this is start/stop system, so thats partially what would bring official numbers up a bit, but not real life. I dont expect changes to increase MPG, only NVH since despite heavy sound proofing, it apparently is knocking away to the oblivion still.

They also are expected to unveil new diesel by 2019, so they would not be doing diesel if they expected these numbers to be actually much higher. It is apparently not replacing their diesel, rather be mid-spec upgrade for their petrol engine lineup.