Lexus June 2018 Sales Report

Posted by Kevin on July 3rd, 2018

USA

Lexus USA has reported 23,750 total sales for June 2018, a 6.2% daily sales rate decrease over last year — here’s the model-by-model breakdown:

MONTH Year to Date (*DSR)
2018 2017 DSR % CHG* 2018 2017 DSR % CHG*
CT 0 615 -100 4 3,926 -99.9
IS 2,017 2,103 -7.6 11,296 12,328 -9.6
RC 328 499 -36.7 1,749 3,099 -44.3
ES 3,592 4,666 -25.9 19,901 21,800 -9.9
GS 602 646 -10.3 3,688 3,553 2.5
LS 789 300 153.3 4,369 1,855 132.5
LC 161 423 -63 1,016 845 19
LFA 0 0 0 2 0 0
Total Cars
7,489
9,252
-22.1
42,025
47,406
-12.5
NX 4,862 4,597 1.8 28,672 26,023 8.7
RX 8,854 8,408 1.4 50,051 46,737 5.7
GX 2149 1740 18.9 11,670 10,897 5.7
LX 396 398 -4.2 2,582 2,697 -5.5
Total Trucks 16,261
 15,143
 3.4
 92,975
 86,354
 6.3
Total Sales
23,750
24,395
-6.2
135,000
133,760
-0.4

Please note, all percentages are calculated by the Daily Sales Rate (DSR), which takes into account the number of days in the month that dealerships could sell cars. June 2018 had 27 selling days, June 2017 had 26 selling days.

Some highlights from the month:

  • Lexus LUVs posted a 7.4 percent increase, a best-ever June
  • NX Hybrid up 270 percent, the sixth consecutive best-ever month
  • NX combined sales up 5.8 percent in June, a best-ever June and first half
  • RX saw gain of 5.3 percent in June
  • GX increased 23.5 percent, a best-ever June in 13 years
  • LS up 135.5 percent in the first half

“Lexus closed out the first half of the year up led by best-ever LUV sales,” said David Christ, group vice president and general manager, Lexus division. “RX is up seven percent year-to-date and remains the top-selling luxury vehicle in the industry while the NX delivered ten percent year-over-year growth.

“In addition to these great results, we successfully launched our flagship sedan, the all-new LS 500, and the all-new RXL. We’re looking forward to continued success in the third quarter, which will get a boost from our all-new ES sedan that goes on sale in September.”

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Comments
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.
mikeavelli
Gecko
Two points:

1) So much changed with the 5LS that I think it's hard to pinpoint any one issue for lackluster sales.
  • One size fits all - and it's bigger than it's ever been, when most LSs before were sold as SWB or only offered SWB
  • Compromised rear seat room vs. a historically cavernous rear seat area (even the Honda Accord has more legroom)
  • Less headroom
  • Losing the V8 - some folks might not like the V6
2) Someone else made this point a while back, but Lexus has really done a terrible job with consistency over the last several years - especially for their sedans - and I think we can't under estimate the importance of this.
  • IS - 2IS ran an 8 year cycle and introduced IS F, no 3IS F, 3IS had carryover engines at first, lackluster 2.0T option, strange packaging with IS 300 AWD, changing names from IS 250 to IS 200t to IS 300, etc.
  • GS - 3GS went from GS 300 to GS 350 in the second year, which outpowered the GS 430, then we got the GS 460 with a detuned LS V8, barely any support for GSh, then 4GS launches with the carryover V6 only, no marketing support for new GS 450h, GS F shows up 3 years late and 150hp short
  • LS - 4LS was a ten year model cycle with two refreshes, SWB and LWB options, V8-only, 5LS debuts sharing very little DNA or identity with the car before, one size only, no V8 option at all, rear seat that is smaller than the 4LS SWB, being a one-size-fits-all model that's very large, there was a significant price hike for some customers on the new model
  • ES - The only model that's ever had any consistency because it follows the Camry and Avalon, which are Toyota's bread and butter so they stick to a strict schedule with refreshes and redesigns.
Typical lease terms are 2 or 3 years, which means that someone will flock into a dealership to buy a brand new model and then when that lease is up, they should be able to see a refreshed/updated model that improves upon their last car. Then when that lease is over, a completely new model is available. Even with buying, the cycle in USA is not dissimilar, with most folks looking at new cars every 3-5 years. So for IS and LS, Lexus has had very little to offer and provided almost no incentive for someone to stick with the brand. Face it, most people want something new and Lexus hasn't delivered on that - think about someone who has been buying IS 350s for years. Would you keep buying the same car 3-4x over 13 years with the same exact engine?

Constant improvement and change shows car buyers that your brand is innovative and keeping pace with the industry and expectations. It would be hard to keep buying LSs when you see constant improvement in the S Class, or GSs in comparison to the E Class or 5er, and same for the IS in relation to C/3er. There will always be loyalists and enthusiasts, but for the general car buying public, Lexus' sedan lineup is either very stale or radically different from what they're used to. Then you have the "basic transportation" formula like ES that just hits the sweet spot for luxury, features and service around $40-45k.

We now have rumors of 3IS lasting into 2020 or 2021, so that is another 6-7 year cycle when you consider how long the car has been on the road. Adding Apple CarPlay and something like 275hp 2.0T and 375hp 3.0T V6 would go a long way towards adding some pizazz in the lineup, but we know Lexus isn't packing that type of fire power. Over time, this lack of investment in the product sends car shoppers elsewhere and other brands have done a much better job of keeping their product lines fresh and innovative - making consumers feel like they're getting more for their money, and definitely having a better experience. These defected customers then stay where they're at because they're bought into a system that's working for them.

Truthfully, their SUV lineup is not much better but is being buoyed by sales trends. Not good.
Good points...

Another thing too, but Toyota/Lexus is going to cut the marketing budget too. I honestly can't say I've seen too much LS content especially compared to the LC. Maybe I'm just missing it.

The thing is and for those that have driven all these cars, the LS and Panamera are by far the most interesting and involving to drive. The 7 series gets there but at autobahn speeds and driving which we don't do here. The S-class even in AMG trim is fast as hell but still with very light steering.

Irony is all these years mags and the internet ragged on the LS for being bland and a boring drive and Lexus fixes it and sales haven't been scorching thus far. Meanwhile bland/boring sold.

Let us not forget too a hydrogen LS is supposed to be coming. That would be a game changer.

M