Lexus GS Sedan Not Going Anywhere, Will Continue Sales in North America

Sakura

I'm sorry - but this forum isn't considered "proof". I would consider it bias proof.

This isn't a general forum of car enthusiasts, where all brands come to talk cars. Its literally states "GermanCarForum". So - its obvious majority of the answers won't be Japanese cars but rather German-based or Europeans. The polls didn't even have one Japanese car. I find that tons of German car enthusiasts are actually European car enthusiasts (includes Aston, Bentley, Alfa, and etc...)

Its pretty obvious Lexus won't be ranked high among German (European) car enthusiasts. Its just like how German (European) cars won't be rank high among the Japanese car enthusiasts crowd.

What if I start a poll on ClubLexus or LexusEnthusiasts, about everyone's favorite high-end coupe. What if these answers are skewed towards Lexus (because Lexus forums)?
That means: I can't use this as proof that German cars aren't ranked high among car enthusiasts. Its a one sided form - just like your link.

yeah... I think people need to realize how small the number of sold AMG and M vehicles. Most of these enthusiasts buy smaller 2.0l engines, and it is really tough to call these cars Enthusiasts vehicles at that point.

Sakura

What if I start a poll on ClubLexus or LexusEnthusiasts, about everyone's favorite high-end coupe. What if these answers are skewed towards Lexus (because Lexus forums)?

On CL the Germans will still win. :p Here I think you'd actually get a pretty fair hearing. We ooh and aah over deserving non-Lexus cars in the Garage subform all the time.

mikeavelli

Nice post again. I think its not just the ES that hurt the GS but the current RX. In our household as soon as my wife saw the new RX she said it will replace her modified GS F-Sport at the time. For her (and likely most people) you now get a pretty equivalent interior, features and more room and to her more style in a SUV package. She loved her GS but when I suggest a GS F replacement she adamantly wanted a SUV.

I think the RX is so good it also is hurting GS/IS sales. If you really don't push the cars to the limits and just want a nice daily the RX F-Sport fits the bill.

Exactly, SUV is for women , but don't forget that the CARS are a Man's job !

johnyb

Exactly, SUV is for women , but don't forget that the CARS are a Man's job !

Most men now chose SUV as DD. I happen to like cars built by women, namely the Acura NSX and the Acura ZDX.

Ian Schmidt

On CL the Germans will still win. :p Here I think you'd actually get a pretty fair hearing. We ooh and aah over deserving non-Lexus cars in the Garage subform all the time.

I will agree - on CL German will definitely win. I was more talking about an "if" though.

From my experience, on CL Car-Chat forums - majority (maybe 80% plus) hates Lexus and drools over the German brands. This is because a lot of the older Lexus members have moved onto German brands but still feel the need to stay on Lexus forums to have some confirmation bias that their switch to another brand is good.

Sakura

Its not fair to call Lexus products "half-baked" because they offering high-performance engines in some models. That's sort-of-like saying: the Germans are producing "half-baked" products because they don't even last till 50K miles without problems. Or saying German products are "half-baked" because they tons of blank switches and poor cup-holders.

The problem wasn't that the Lexus GS updated too late nor the performance figures of it. I feel like the GS sales numbers can be blamed on these faults:
1) The Lexus ES. Why? The Lexus ES is cheaper and has more room than the Lexus GS. To the average consumer (which is the majority of car-buyers) its a no-brainer to buy a car that is cheaper and has more room. What the average consumer saw was that the Lexus ES is a cheaper Lexus GS. The average consumer wouldn't like pay more for the driving dynamics and RWD of the Lexus GS. I honestly believe - if Lexus product-planned better - they could have sold tons of Lexus GS if they canceled the Lexus ES long ago and made the Lexus GS cheaper.
2) Because the Lexus ES is cheaper and bigger - its easier to sell at dealers. Dealers will have an easier time pushing ES out the door than trying to BS their way into getting an average buyer to pay more for a GS.
3) The Lexus GS doesn't have enough badge prestige for majority of average consumers owners to want to buy one.

Lastly - why I don't think its the power delivery that's a huge factor: MB and BMW both offer I4 Turbos on their base level E-Class and 5 Series. I'll admit - the Lexus GS I4 Turbo is slower. But do you really think people that buy the Base engine for these luxury full-size cars care about the power? From a performance stand point - all three are slow. People aren't buying the Base Engine E-Class and Base Engine 5 Series to go less than a second faster than to 60 compared to the GS.

But Ferrari is a niche brand. They don't won't ever have a big line-up because they are a catering to a small demographic of people.

Business side of things - Toyota doesn't care about the European Market. Toyota's biggest market is North America and Asia - especially USA and China. This is why the new Lexus ES is designed for the Chinese Market - not the US-Market.

That's exactly sir what I have been saying long time ago, honestly the ES not only killing the GS but also the IS, Crown, Avalon and Mark-X

So 1 car will destroy another 6
Why with God sake Toyota not putting the Avalon in the current ES market, I even thought that the Avalon is better all around than the ES and with rumors about killing the IS we start to hear the same about the Mark-X

This is as if they don't want to make cars anymore this is all crazy and I am really mad of the decision regarding sticking with the ES and killing the rest

Levi

Most men now chose SUV as DD. I happen to like cars built by women, namely the Acura NSX and the Acura ZDX.

Honestly I never chosen SUV over any Sedan, you can say I still have the 95 Land Cruiser and rarely use it and it was and maybe will be only high driving car I owned, never believed in the SUV, even I believe that pick up trucks can have some justice, now that said I never have a full size car in my garage, I need a mid to small luxury Sedan with today's length, in the past I used to have LS400, LS430, LS460, but all of them is just around 5M not as the new tall full size LS500 and that's exactly what keeps me buying the GS

So in my personal case, Lexus will lose a dedicated customer like me with this move, and you can multiply my case with really a lot of guys who really love the GS & IS handling and not believing in CUV craziness what so ever

maiaramdan

Honestly I never chosen SUV over any Sedan, you can say I still have the 95 Land Cruiser and rarely use it and it was and maybe will be only high driving car I owned, never believed in the SUV, even I believe that pick up trucks can have some justice, now that said I never have a full size car in my garage, I need a mid to small luxury Sedan with today's length, in the past I used to have LS400, LS430, LS460, but all of them is just around 5M not as the new tall full size LS500 and that's exactly what keeps me buying the GS

So in my personal case, Lexus will lose a dedicated customer like me with this move, and you can multiply my case with really a lot of guys who really love the GS & IS handling and not believing in CUV craziness what so ever

You have rare reasonable preference. I too think pick ups make sense. But they are lately made "luxurious" rather than comfortably drivable. Compared to SUVs, pickups tend to have a less tall body but increased ground clearance.

maiaramdan

That's exactly sir what I have been saying long time ago, honestly the ES not only killing the GS but also the IS, Crown, Avalon and Mark-X

So 1 car will destroy another 6
Why with God sake Toyota not putting the Avalon in the current ES market, I even thought that the Avalon is better all around than the ES and with rumors about killing the IS we start to hear the same about the Mark-X

This is as if they don't want to make cars anymore this is all crazy and I am really mad of the decision regarding sticking with the ES and killing the rest

Very true. The Lexus ES does somewhat harm IS sales as well. The starting price of the Lexus ES is very similar to the Lexus IS. Some consumers might be swayed by the idea of the bigger size of the ES for relatively not that much more.

The problem is: if they cancel both the IS and GS, Lexus is committing brand suicide.
If they cancel the IS, they are canceling the IS, RC (RC is based on IS - IS goes RC goes), and IS-F (no hope of return.)
If they cancel the GS, they are canceling the GS and GS-F.
This means they will leave the 3 Series, 4 Series, C-Class, C-Class Coupe, E-Class, A4, A5, S4, S5, A6, S6, and Q50 3.0T Silver Sport competition. Yup. Brand suicide.

The Lexus ES is an amazing car and its great for what it is. But its no A6, 5, or E competitor. The Lexus ES can barely compete against the 3, C-Class, and A4. Toyota will have to be on some special kind of stupid if they think the Lexus ES will be able to compete against all of those cars with its transverse FWD layout.

@Sakura
Thanks a lot, you made me finally feels that I am not alone in the must killing of the ES

regarding the next generation GS, they already have the new crown, they can modified it in and out and have the next generation GS

regarding the next generation IS they can build it with the next generation Mark-X, based on the same length of the current generation Mark-X

So the Crown/Mark-X is the slightly narrow body "Japanese rules" and more soft riding and the GS/IS is the international wide body more athletic riding

regarding the Avalon they can give it the AWD from Highlander or Sienna and they can have even better car than the FWD ES

Sakura

Very true. The Lexus ES does somewhat harm IS sales as well. The starting price of the Lexus ES is very similar to the Lexus IS. Some consumers might be swayed by the idea of the bigger size of the ES for relatively not that much more.

The problem is: if they cancel both the IS and GS, Lexus is committing brand suicide.
If they cancel the IS, they are canceling the IS, RC (RC is based on IS - IS goes RC goes), and IS-F (no hope of return.)
If they cancel the GS, they are canceling the GS and GS-F.
This means they will leave the 3 Series, 4 Series, C-Class, C-Class Coupe, E-Class, A4, A5, S4, S5, A6, S6, and Q50 3.0T Silver Sport competition. Yup. Brand suicide.

The Lexus ES is an amazing car and its great for what it is. But its no A6, 5, or E competitor. The Lexus ES can barely compete against the 3, C-Class, and A4. Toyota will have to be on some special kind of stupid if they think the Lexus ES will be able to compete against all of those cars with its transverse FWD layout.

Do not compare Audi to Mercedes and BMW. Except the R8, all Audis are FWD based. That the engine is north south plays no role. Audi does not have symmetrical AWD as Suabru.

maiaramdan

That's exactly sir what I have been saying long time ago, honestly the ES not only killing the GS but also the IS, Crown, Avalon and Mark-X

It'd be one thing if ES was somehow destroying all those cars by subterfuge or some illegal maneuvers by TMC (against themselves?), but the reality is that it's a hell of a car for the price. The fact that no other automaker has any idea how to compete with it either is telling.

Sakura

The Lexus ES is an amazing car and its great for what it is. But its no A6, 5, or E competitor. The Lexus ES can barely compete against the 3, C-Class, and A4.

The ES is not a competitor of A6, 5, E.

It is a competitor of A4, 3, C.

Please a provide YOUR examples of why the ES barely competes in that segment. Quality? Performance? Sales?

Cancelling the IS will indeed be a brand suicide move since it means removing the gateway car. No luxury brand can exist without a gateway product. I doubt it will happen unless we are at the point where sedans account for less than 10% of total car sales.

If the recent boom of the CLA sedan is any indication, Lexus actually needs to bring the CT back and probably a CS as well for the emerging market. It is crucial to have an affordable product that gets new customers into the brand. That's the role IS should be playing, and it couldn't play that role very well because of, well, ES.

The "should they kill the ES" topic is another exhausting discussion that pops up again and again. The answer is a definitive yes, it should have been killed in 1989. But after three decades Lexus is now way past the point of no return, the answer is they can't. The question now is whether TMC could make the best out of this situation.

Ian Schmidt

It'd be one thing if ES was somehow destroying all those cars by subterfuge or some illegal maneuvers by TMC (against themselves?), but the reality is that it's a hell of a car for the price. The fact that no other automaker has any idea how to compete with it either is telling.

Honestly I feel the opposite
If it's a hell of a car why Toyota dump a lot of things inside the Avalon as for example the red leather seats and the big HUD which both can be found in the Rav4 & Camry

I think Toyota putting itself in a suicidal situation and by killing IS & GS they can kill Lexus brand itself because there will be no difference between Lexus and Toyota

zeusus

The ES is not a competitor of A6, 5, E.

It is a competitor of A4, 3, C.

Please a provide YOUR examples of why the ES barely competes in that segment. Quality? Performance? Sales?

I respectfully disagree. The Lexus ES isn't a competitor to the A4, 3, or C.
1) Layout. A4 is longitudinal FWD with AWD offering. 3 and C are both RWD.
2) Driving dynamics/handling. The A4 Quattro, 3, and C all handle better than the Lexus ES and Lexus ES F-Sport.
3) Performance. The A4 Quattro, 3 and C all outperform the Lexus ES.
4) The Lexus ES is too luxurious compared to the A4, 3, and C. The A4, 3, and C seem like a step down in quality and luxury compared to the ES.
5) The Lexus ES has more space and bigger than the A4, 3, and C by a huge amount.

Overall - the Lexus IS350 makes a better competitor to the A4, 3, and C. The sizing, handling, performance, luxurious features, and etc... are more closely related. I believe the Lexus ES hovers in a slot above the IS, A4, 3, and C competition, but below the GS, E, 5, and A6 competition. I don't think the Lexus ES has an actual German competitor is one of the reasons why I allude the Lexus ES to be in competition with the Buick, Acura TLX, and Genesis.

ssun30

The "should they kill the ES" topic is another exhausting discussion that pops up again and again. The answer is a definitive yes, it should have been killed in 1989. But after three decades Lexus is now way past the point of no return, the answer is they can't. The question now is whether TMC could make the best out of this situation.

What do you understand by "killing" the ES? The badge? They could keep the badge and make it RWD. In automotive history, it is usual for RWD to become FWD cars. It will soon happen again with the BMW 1 Series, 2 generations RWD, a USP, and BMW is ready to kill it in favor of FWD. They will come out unscathed thanks to badge. It is fare rarer, but it does happen, that a FWD car becomes RWD. After the Alfa 155, 156 and 159, the Giulia is now again a RWD car. The Jaguar X-Type that was FWD, now with the XE is RWD. Even more actual and significant because of the segment, while most CUVs the were RWD become FWD, Ford will be doing the contrary, and the new Ford Expedition will be RWD instead of FWD like the present one.

Sakura

I respectfully disagree. The Lexus ES isn't a competitor to the A4, 3, or C.
1) Layout. A4 is longitudinal FWD with AWD offering. 3 and C are both RWD.
2) Driving dynamics/handling. The A4 Quattro, 3, and C all handle better than the Lexus ES and Lexus ES F-Sport.
3) Performance. The A4 Quattro, 3 and C all outperform the Lexus ES.
4) The Lexus ES is too luxurious compared to the A4, 3, and C. The A4, 3, and C seem like a step down in quality and luxury compared to the ES.
5) The Lexus ES has more space and bigger than the A4, 3, and C by a huge amount.

Overall - the Lexus IS350 makes a better competitor to the A4, 3, and C. The sizing, handling, performance, luxurious features, and etc... are more closely related. I believe the Lexus ES hovers in a slot above the IS, A4, 3, and C competition, but below the GS, E, 5, and A6 competition. I don't think the Lexus ES has an actual German competitor is one of the reasons why I allude the Lexus ES to be in competition with the Buick, Acura TLX, and Genesis.

Why do you leave out the Passat or Aerton, which is an Audi in all aspects except engine layout? And do not mention Audi and driving dynamics in the same sentence. I have yet to drive a well handling Audi that is not an R8).

Sakura

I respectfully disagree. The Lexus ES isn't a competitor to the A4, 3, or C.
1) Layout. A4 is longitudinal FWD with AWD offering. 3 and C are both RWD.
2) Driving dynamics/handling. The A4 Quattro, 3, and C all handle better than the Lexus ES and Lexus ES F-Sport.
3) Performance. The A4 Quattro, 3 and C all outperform the Lexus ES.
4) The Lexus ES is too luxurious compared to the A4, 3, and C. The A4, 3, and C seem like a step down in quality and luxury compared to the ES.
5) The Lexus ES has more space and bigger than the A4, 3, and C by a huge amount.

Overall - the Lexus IS350 makes a better competitor to the A4, 3, and C. The sizing, handling, performance, luxurious features, and etc... are more closely related. I believe the Lexus ES hovers in a slot above the IS, A4, 3, and C competition, but below the GS, E, 5, and A6 competition. I don't think the Lexus ES has an actual German competitor is one of the reasons why I allude the Lexus ES to be in competition with the Buick, Acura TLX, and Genesis.

The general consumer does not care about FWD vs RWD, enthusiasts claim to think it is important (because thats the intellectual bubble enthusiasts live in) but the reality is no.

Sure there are some buyers who look at Buick, Acura and Genesis though there are plenty of buyers who are only willing to look at the top tier premium luxury brands.

So if given the choice of the obvious top three that Lexus competes with, which factors have the most influence with what cars buyers cross shop the ES with?

Could price be one of the most important factors? And what price range is the ES in?

Lastly, your assumption that the "A4, C, 3 all handle better than the ES and ES F-sport", is thrown around as if it were some fact, it isn't fact, none of us know. Maybe when comparisons come out we'll have a better idea. And it would be interesting to see which cars the mags compare the ES with.

Levi

Why do you leave out the Passat or Aerton, which is an Audi in all aspects except engine layout? And do not mention Audi and driving dynamics in the same sentence. I have yet to drive a well handling Audi that is not an R8).

VW Passat and Aerton are both transversely FWD layouts. The Audi A4 is a longitudinal FWD layout. Longitudinal FWD is by far more superior than transverse FWD layouts.

zeusus

The general consumer does not care about FWD vs RWD, enthusiasts claim to think it is important (because thats the intellectual bubble enthusiasts live in) but the reality is no.

Sure there are some buyers who look at Buick, Acura and Genesis though there are plenty of buyers who are only willing to look at the top tier premium luxury brands.

So if given the choice of the obvious top three that Lexus competes with, which factors have the most influence with what cars buyers cross shop the ES with?

Could price be one of the most important factors? And what price range is the ES in?

Lastly, your assumption that the "A4, C, 3 all handle better than the ES and ES F-sport", is thrown around as if it were some fact, it isn't fact, none of us know. Maybe when comparisons come out we'll have a better idea. And it would be interesting to see which cars the mags compare the ES with.

Agreed - the general public doesn't care about FWD vs RWD. Just because the general public doesn't care - doesn't mean the Lexus ES is a proper competitor to the A4, C, and 3. That's like saying the general public will think a Toyota Camry is a similar car to the Lexus IS. Or a Buick Regal is the same as a BMW 340i.

Firstly - I don't think the Lexus ES competes with the A4, 3, and C. Because I think the Lexus ES is a bigger car, more luxurious, and a better overall car compared to the A4, 3 and C Class. Also the A4, 3, and C are more sportier compared to the ES.
Secondly - I don't think the Lexus ES competes with the A6, 5, and E. Because I think the Lexus ES is not as luxurious nor it drives as well as the A6, 5, or E.

I think the Lexus ES falls in between the A4, 3, C and A6, 5 and E. In this grey area, where the Germans don't have a competitor. This is why I think it competes with Buick, Acura TLX or Genesis.

Sure - price plays a good part in where the ES belongs in a segment but its only one part. Just because a car cost a specific amount - doesn't mean it 100% competes with each other. Other factors are considered, like size, type of car, performance and etc...

Yes. No one knows for sure. But on paper - its impossible for the Lexus ES or ES F-Sport to handle better than the A4 Quattro, 3, and C. Its simply because its not built for it (on paper anyways).
Note: For longitudinal FWD layouts; the front-to-rear weight distribution of the car as a whole will be preferable to a transverse orientation where mass is accumulated at the front of the chassis. This should make a car more predictable and is advantageous to all-wheel drive vehicles. The in-line nature of these setups also allows manufacturers to implement complex all-wheel drive systems using torsen differentials and viscous couplings directly down the line from the transmission.
This is why I think the ES will fall short in handling when compared to A4 Quattro, 3, and C. Its transverse FWD layout is holding it back. Even if its fitted with AWD - a transverse AWD system isn't as a longitudinal AWD system.

Levi

What do you understand by "killing" the ES? The badge? They could keep the badge and make it RWD.

In an earlier post I mentioned how the original 89' ES could be based on the RWD Mark II platform instead of the V20 narrow-body Camry. That way the ES could be a much more likeable car and the brand would have a much more favorable image than it has now. I didn't mean 'killing' the ES literally, rather it was a scenario in which the GS never existed.

Sakura

VW Passat and Aerton are both transversely FWD layouts. The Audi A4 is a longitudinal FWD layout. Longitudinal FWD is by far more superior than transverse FWD layouts.

This is why I think the ES will fall short in handling when compared to A4 Quattro, 3, and C. Its transverse FWD layout is holding it back. Even if its fitted with AWD - a transverse AWD system isn't as a longitudinal AWD system.

You are beating a dead horse, even though I agree with you (except Audi).

First of all, we at LE are not the Lexus board.

Next, AWD will always be a compromise in ICEVs. Those compromises vanish with BEVs. Where car makers are wrong really wrong about, and I wonder why you do not criticize that about BEVs, is that RWD BEVs truly far better, cheaper, space efficient, and more simple and durable than FWD BEVs. Except Tesla and BMW i3, all other BEVs are FWD. With the torque they have, they are terrible to drive. With ESC, even more precisely programmable in BEVs than ICEVS, RWD will not be of 'danger' for consumers. It is time for carmakers to stop transforming inefficient FWD ICEVs in BEVs.

Then, back to ICEVs, while FF-L is theoretically better than FF-T, it remains FF, and the difference between FF-L and FF-T is not a great as FR-L to FF-L.

We have already mentioned, that execution of a certain layout it more important than the selection of a certain layout. What good is it to select the right layout if it is not well implemented? Think of how IS XE20 was not praised initially for handling, although it was RWD.

I will repeat, that while FF-L might be better than FF-T, Audi is not well executed from my experience, and thus not comparable to the two other German rivals.

While FF-L is indeed great in Subaru products as F4-L, and Subaru has successful sales, although they market their symmetrical AWD system and Flat4 engine as a value-added USP, they are not bought for these characteristics, but rather for the fact of having AWD and their (now past) perception of reliability. Yet, in consumers eyes the Outback does not hold a candle to the objectively inferior A6 Avant. More than that, Subaru's AWD system in becoming less mechanical and more FWD-biased, thus negating their layout advantage compared to F4-T competitors.

What you are asking is impossible, and more than that incomplete. Passenger vehicles are all about space utilization. Safety standards affect that even more; front overhangs have no function other than crash safety, but the take space, making a vehicle longer without adding passenger or cargo volume.

I have already mentioned, that to get the most out of a given footprint, while not compromising handling -- and that is being RWD -- cars should have a FR-L layout with V4 and V6 (both 90° angle). But this just cannot happen anymore. The reason why cars with V6 have a long hood, is because they all have derivatives with I4 or V8 which are longer, thus V6s are usually inefficient in space utilization, there is empty space.

Platform layout and engine configuration are highly interrelated. First, the more parts different engine configurations can share, the cheaper to develop and produce. Thus I4 and I6. 60° V6 has always been a stand alone engine. 90° V6 can be derived from a 90° V8 as is mostly the case today with non-Japanese makers, but these are big engines for expensive cars, and as the I4 was already established a 90° V4 could not be cost efficient anymore, and many carmakers had no 90° V8 to derive it from.

Notice, that because of I4, and car makers have no incentives to make RWD cars. Because the 1 Series will have no more I6, it will be FWD. Same case with Volvo, even though it was FWD with I6 in transverse layout (Daewoo Magnus/Chevrolet Evanda is another notable exception).

I don't want to tell to go buy the FF-L Audi A4 that you praise so much, but be prepared that what is praise about the 3 German is (unfortunately) not the reason why consumers buy them. They buy them primarily because of the badge, secondarily, because they 'feel' better, third because of market value, related to desirability due to the two first points. If the ES can give consumers a better 'feel' and consumers are aware of it through good sales promotion, it will be a success, regardless of what journalist praise about the Germans: handling and infotainment (iDrive, MMI, MBUX).

There is a big discrepancy between Journalists and Consumers. Consumers need Journalists to help with their buying decision, but Journalists cater to Enthusiasts, that only want Journalists to confirm their personal preferences. That is a big problem for the Consumer, and ultimately for the general Carmaker.

lets try to avoid discussing ES here and stay on topic shall we?

sl0519

lets try to avoid discussing ES here and stay on topic shall we?

Yes, back to GS discussion, please.

Not to stray too much off topic again but what would be the major differences between a 2018 GS 350 F-Sport and a 2019 ES F-Sport. Power is about the same, both have an adaptive suspicion and an 8 speed transmission. Will the AWD or RWD of the GS make that much of a difference for a car that's about the same size as well.

lsu5508

Not to stray too much off topic again but what would be the major differences between a 2018 GS 350 F-Sport and a 2019 ES F-Sport. Power is about the same, both have an adaptive suspension and an 8 speed transmission and styling is pretty close. Will the AWD or RWD of the GS make that much of a difference in handling to make one it definitively better than the ES. The ES appears to have a bit better interior with the new technology additions and many LS type features. The 19 ES F-Sport appears to be a pretty close competitor to the 2018 GS 350 F-Sport especially considering the price points(even though we don't have pricing on the 2019 ES yet I assume the F-Sport will be upper 40's ) but the opinions of ES vs GS seem to be night and day which has me pretty confused. Looking to buy at the end of the year and really not seeing the major difference that makes the non F version GS that superior. I'm new to this so I might be missing something.

In real life every day road driving, there would be no difference. The difference will only be in your mind. But what is in you mind is just as important, otherwise there would be no team called "Marketing".

zeusus

The ES is not a competitor of A6, 5, E.

It is a competitor of A4, 3, C.

Please a provide YOUR examples of why the ES barely competes in that segment. Quality? Performance? Sales?

Exactly! Lexus in their own words has stated that the ES competes directly with the A4, 3 Series and C Class but as we all know the ES is really in a class of it own. The IS line is really the true competitor to the A4, 3 Series and C Class.

Please watch this video from Lexus when they were in Nashville, TN, USA and Lexus shows a diagram at the 3:34 mark showing the ES competing with A4, 3 Series, C Class and TLX. So no the ES has never, currently or will ever compete with the A6, 5 Series or E Class...

Moderator note
I am sick of moving ES posts to the ES thread. This topic is for the GS - if you want to talk about the ES, go to the thread that's stickied to the top of the Lexus Lounge.

Gecko

Moderator note
I am sick of moving ES posts to the ES thread. This topic is for the GS - if you want to talk about the ES, go to the thread that's stickied to the top of the Lexus Lounge.

But in the ES thread they talk about GS. :laughing:

To be fair, after the ES launch there is such a dearth of new information that it becomes hard to have meaningful discussions on this forum so people start beating the dead horses again. I see it becoming a real problem now.