Lexus GS Sedan Not Going Anywhere, Will Continue Sales in North America

IS I think is a pretty good on-boarder. It's a better one if there's also a GS though :)

Also, it's less of a thing now, but what automaker can resist gunning for the 3 Series? Even though pretty much everyone agrees there are better options now.

Levi

Well, I mentioned that in the Ford thread. IS and GS are too close similar and do not sell in high enough numbers.

What exactly is the purpose of IS and GS, and even RC? If this can be defined, probably a case for these cars can be made. Otherwise, they are done. See Ford and Infiniti.

Actually - the IS and GS is the equivalent of the 3 Series and 5 Series and C-Class and E-Class. Its the entry-level luxury sports to the luxury sports sedan segment. Lexus IS gets into the Lexus brand and then you upgrade to the Lexus GS. If you ask either IS/GS owner, they will not upgrade to the ES because they don't see it as an upgrade.
The Lexus IS sells fine. If you take a look at their 2014/2015 sales numbers, they were able to rack up similar sales numbers as their 2006 model with the same 10+ year old engine. Lexus IS sales always dip during the refresh years, similarity, during the 2G Lexus IS.

I have always thought - what's the point of the Lexus ES? Lexus is the only brand that has a car slotted in between. Example: The 3/5 Series has nothing slotted in between. Neither does the C/E Class. The only reason Toyota can't let go of the ES is that its a cash magnet.

Secondly - the Lexus IS is Lexus' entry-level sports sedan. Its car that lets you enter the brand of Lexus. If the Lexus axe the IS and the GS, they are 100% leaving the luxury segment for good. They will be abandoning the 3/5 Series and C/E Class segment. Leaving the Germans with all the market-share. Lexus is the only brand capable of catching the Germans. If they drop the IS/GS, they'll end where Acura is - a deep crap hole. No consumer will take them seriously with the ES sedan (Avalon re-skin) as their entry-level option.

Last note: The RC is basically the 4 Series and C-Class coupe competitor.
If Lexus drops the IS, GS, and RC they will be dropping out of the 3 Series, 4 Series, 5 Series, C-Class, C-Class Coupe, and E-Class competition. Also - lets not forget Audi A4 and S4 competition as well.
Without these cars, who would really consider Lexus a luxury brand?

Levi

Well, I mentioned that in the Ford thread. IS and GS are too close similar and do not sell in high enough numbers.

What exactly is the purpose of IS and GS, and even RC? If this can be defined, probably a case for these cars can be made. Otherwise, they are done. See Ford and Infiniti.

Actually - the IS and GS is the equivalent of the 3 Series and 5 Series and C-Class and E-Class. Its the entry-level luxury sports to the luxury sports sedan segment. Lexus IS gets into the Lexus brand and then you upgrade to the Lexus GS. If you ask either IS/GS owner, they will not upgrade to the ES because they don't see it as an upgrade.
The Lexus IS sells fine. If you take a look at their 2014/2015 sales numbers, they were able to rack up similar sales numbers as their 2006 model with the same 10+ year old engine. Lexus IS sales always dip during the refresh years, similarity, during the 2G Lexus IS.

I have always thought - what's the point of the Lexus ES? Lexus is the only brand that has a car slotted in between. Example: The 3/5 Series has nothing slotted in between. Neither does the C/E Class. The only reason Toyota can't let go of the ES is that its a cash magnet.

Secondly - the Lexus IS is Lexus' entry-level sports sedan. Its car that lets you enter the brand of Lexus. If the Lexus axe the IS and the GS, they are 100% leaving the luxury segment for good. They will be abandoning the 3/5 Series and C/E Class segment. Leaving the Germans with all the market-share. Lexus is the only brand capable of catching the Germans. If they drop the IS/GS, they'll end where Acura is - a deep crap hole. No consumer will take them seriously with the ES sedan (Avalon re-skin) as their entry-level option.

Last note: The RC is basically the 4 Series and C-Class coupe competitor.
If Lexus drops the IS, GS, and RC they will be dropping out of the 3 Series, 4 Series, 5 Series, C-Class, C-Class Coupe, and E-Class competition. Also - lets not forget Audi A4 and S4 competition as well.
Without these cars, who would really consider Lexus a luxury brand?

Levi

Well, I mentioned that in the Ford thread. IS and GS are too close similar and do not sell in high enough numbers.

What exactly is the purpose of IS and GS, and even RC? If this can be defined, probably a case for these cars can be made. Otherwise, they are done. See Ford and Infiniti.

Actually - the IS and GS is the equivalent of the 3 Series and 5 Series and C-Class and E-Class. Its the entry-level luxury sports to the luxury sports sedan segment. Lexus IS gets into the Lexus brand and then you upgrade to the Lexus GS. If you ask either IS/GS owner, they will not upgrade to the ES because they don't see it as an upgrade.
The Lexus IS sells fine. If you take a look at their 2014/2015 sales numbers, they were able to rack up similar sales numbers as their 2006 model with the same 10+ year old engine. Lexus IS sales always dip during the refresh years, similarity, during the 2G Lexus IS.

I have always thought - what's the point of the Lexus ES? Lexus is the only brand that has a car slotted in between. Example: The 3/5 Series has nothing slotted in between. Neither does the C/E Class. The only reason Toyota can't let go of the ES is that its a cash magnet.

Secondly - the Lexus IS is Lexus' entry-level sports sedan. Its car that lets you enter the brand of Lexus. If the Lexus axe the IS and the GS, they are 100% leaving the luxury segment for good. They will be abandoning the 3/5 Series and C/E Class segment. Leaving the Germans with all the market-share. Lexus is the only brand capable of catching the Germans. If they drop the IS/GS, they'll end where Acura is - a deep crap hole. No consumer will take them seriously with the ES sedan (Avalon re-skin) as their entry-level option.

Last note: The RC is basically the 4 Series and C-Class coupe competitor.
If Lexus drops the IS, GS, and RC they will be dropping out of the 3 Series, 4 Series, 5 Series, C-Class, C-Class Coupe, and E-Class competition. Also - lets not forget Audi A4 and S4 competition as well.
Without these cars, who would really consider Lexus a luxury brand?

Levi

Well, I mentioned that in the Ford thread. IS and GS are too close similar and do not sell in high enough numbers.

What exactly is the purpose of IS and GS, and even RC? If this can be defined, probably a case for these cars can be made. Otherwise, they are done. See Ford and Infiniti.

Actually - the IS and GS is the equivalent of the 3 Series and 5 Series and C-Class and E-Class. Its the entry-level luxury sports to the luxury sports sedan segment. Lexus IS gets into the Lexus brand and then you upgrade to the Lexus GS. If you ask either IS/GS owner, they will not upgrade to the ES because they don't see it as an upgrade.
The Lexus IS sells fine. If you take a look at their 2014/2015 sales numbers, they were able to rack up similar sales numbers as their 2006 model with the same 10+ year old engine. Lexus IS sales always dip during the refresh years, similarity, during the 2G Lexus IS.

I have always thought - what's the point of the Lexus ES? Lexus is the only brand that has a car slotted in between. Example: The 3/5 Series has nothing slotted in between. Neither does the C/E Class. The only reason Toyota can't let go of the ES is that its a cash magnet.

Secondly - the Lexus IS is Lexus' entry-level sports sedan. Its car that lets you enter the brand of Lexus. If the Lexus axe the IS and the GS, they are 100% leaving the luxury segment for good. They will be abandoning the 3/5 Series and C/E Class segment. Leaving the Germans with all the market-share. Lexus is the only brand capable of catching the Germans. If they drop the IS/GS, they'll end where Acura is - a deep crap hole. No consumer will take them seriously with the ES sedan (Avalon re-skin) as their entry-level option.

Last note: The RC is basically the 4 Series and C-Class coupe competitor.
If Lexus drops the IS, GS, and RC they will be dropping out of the 3 Series, 4 Series, 5 Series, C-Class, C-Class Coupe, and E-Class competition. Also - lets not forget Audi A4 and S4 competition as well.
Without these cars, who would really consider Lexus a luxury brand?

I agree, Lexus needs to keep at least some parity in regards to model-to-model competition. The last thing Lexus wants or needs is to peel back the layers so much (because they can't compete) that they become an...Acura.

What Acura did was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Poor sales, leads to less models (because of poor sales), which leads to a drop in overall image, which leads to more poor sales, which leads to less models, and around and around we go. Lexus is peering down that barrel.

The solutions to a competitive and desirable sports-type sedan or-- even better--a four-door coupe'/sportsback, is quite apparent, at least to me and I've said it ad nauseum.

To me, though, it's just unforgivable that they couldn't predict this, foresee this, or even have some contingency plan (you know, a what if) in their pockets. Other manufacturer's can churn out engines as quickly as they redo models, not Lexus. Why they thought they could skate along with ancient power trains for as long as they have is just mind-boggling to me. You can't have a sports sedan without a good engine.

So, before you throw out a new model, Lexus, it better be the COMPLETE THING and have a legitimate, convincing engine, or it will be a sacrificial lamb. Just going through the motions with your name and some half-baked pistons under the hood just doesn't cut it anymore. Kia can produce a better engine for crying out loud. No excuses.

Levi

Well, I mentioned that in the Ford thread. IS and GS are too close similar and do not sell in high enough numbers.


What exactly is the purpose of IS and GS, and even RC? If this can be defined, probably a case for these cars can be made. Otherwise, they are done. See Ford and Infiniti.

What is there to define? Lexus better figure out why they can't move RWD product while others can, that's what they have to define.

Rhambler

I agree, Lexus needs to keep at least some parity in regards to model-to-model competition. The last thing Lexus wants or needs is to peel back the layers so much (because they can't compete) that they become an...Acura.

What Acura did was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Poor sales, leads to less models (because of poor sales), which leads to a drop in overall image, which leads to more poor sales, which leads to less models, and around and around we go. Lexus is peering down that barrel.

The solutions to a competitive and desirable sports-type sedan or-- even better--a four-door coupe'/sportsback, is quite apparent, at least to me and I've said it ad nauseum.

To me, though, it's just unforgivable that they couldn't predict this, foresee this, or even have some contingency plan (you know, a what if) in their pockets. Other manufacturer's can churn out engines as quickly as they redo models, not Lexus. Why they thought they could skate along with ancient power trains for as long as they have is just mind-boggling to me. You can't have a sports sedan without a good engine.

So, before you throw out a new model, Lexus, it better be the COMPLETE THING and have a legitimate, convincing engine, or it will be a sacrificial lamb. Just going through the motions with your name and some half-baked pistons under the hood just doesn't cut it anymore. Kia can produce a better engine for crying out loud. No excuses.

I definitely agree with you on the first bit. Lexus needs to keep the model-to-model competition in order to stay relevant to the Germans. The reason Acura and Infiniti can't compete with the Germans is because they lack the product-line up. Lexus is the only Japanese brand truly capable of taking money from the Germans. If Lexus removes the IS/GS, they are folding and will literally be like what Acura is.

This is a reply to the text I have bold in your quote: The thing is - Toyota and other Japanese car companies, are insanely slow at releasing or updating engines. Its for a few reasons why they do this:
1) This has a lot to do with the conservative nature of Japan.
2) Its much more profitable to keep using older engines rather than develop new ones - especially if sales still stay high. Example: The 2014 3G Lexus IS sold the exact same number of cars, with the same 10 year old engine, as the 2006 2G Lexus IS. This is profits right here. The Lexus IS sales, ever since the 2G, always dip after refresh. It'll likely spike once incentives roll in for outgoing models and then it'll spike back up to 50K/units per year once new Gen arrives.
3) Toyota/Lexus doesn't focus on performance first - like say BMW or Infiniti. I always see Lexus a young Japanese Mercedes Benz, where they focus on the quality, smoothness, and comfort of the ride first.
4) Japanese car reliability. They know their old and much more proven engines will last longer than something freshly developed.

Rhambler

What Acura did was a self-fulfilling prophecy. Poor sales, leads to less models (because of poor sales), which leads to a drop in overall image, which leads to more poor sales, which leads to less models, and around and around we go. Lexus is peering down that barrel.

True, but you have skipped a phase Lexus goes through: half backed models, before no models at all. An this is even worse: not enough money spent to make a excellent product, but money spent that could have been used elsewhere. Even the not well selling Jaguar XF tries more than Lexus, with 2.0d and 5.0l V8 Supercahrged. Lexus updated the GS lineup too late.

I think it is nice to have a simple lineup, ala Ferrari, one car, one engine, one trim, no variations, also like the first Apple products, one iPhone, one iPad etc... But well even Apple now has several iPhones and iPads. Of course Lexus also needs to do the same. Before the 200t/300 and 300h models, Lexus in Europe has only 4 cars - not counting CUVs/SUVs (that is fine) but each only one engine: Ct 200h, IS 250, IS 220d, IS F, GS 450h, LS 600h. Nice clean small lineup, but same wise low sales. But a lineup with mediocre products is not better.

Levi

True, but you have skipped a phase Lexus goes through: half backed models, before no models at all. An this is even worse: not enough money spent to make a excellent product, but money spent that could have been used elsewhere. Even the not well selling Jaguar XF tries more than Lexus, with 2.0d and 5.0l V8 Supercahrged. Lexus updated the GS lineup too late.

I think it is nice to have a simple lineup, ala Ferrari, one car, one engine, one trim, no variations, also like the first Apple products, one iPhone, one iPad etc... But well even Apple now has several iPhones and iPads. Of course Lexus also needs to do the same. Before the 200t/300 and 300h models, Lexus in Europe has only 4 cars - not counting CUVs/SUVs (that is fine) but each only one engine: Ct 200h, IS 250, IS 220d, IS F, GS 450h, LS 600h. Nice clean small lineup, but same wise low sales. But a lineup with mediocre products is not better.

Its not fair to call Lexus products "half-baked" because they offering high-performance engines in some models. That's sort-of-like saying: the Germans are producing "half-baked" products because they don't even last till 50K miles without problems. Or saying German products are "half-baked" because they tons of blank switches and poor cup-holders.

The problem wasn't that the Lexus GS updated too late nor the performance figures of it. I feel like the GS sales numbers can be blamed on these faults:
1) The Lexus ES. Why? The Lexus ES is cheaper and has more room than the Lexus GS. To the average consumer (which is the majority of car-buyers) its a no-brainer to buy a car that is cheaper and has more room. What the average consumer saw was that the Lexus ES is a cheaper Lexus GS. The average consumer wouldn't like pay more for the driving dynamics and RWD of the Lexus GS. I honestly believe - if Lexus product-planned better - they could have sold tons of Lexus GS if they canceled the Lexus ES long ago and made the Lexus GS cheaper.
2) Because the Lexus ES is cheaper and bigger - its easier to sell at dealers. Dealers will have an easier time pushing ES out the door than trying to BS their way into getting an average buyer to pay more for a GS.
3) The Lexus GS doesn't have enough badge prestige for majority of average consumers owners to want to buy one.

Lastly - why I don't think its the power delivery that's a huge factor: MB and BMW both offer I4 Turbos on their base level E-Class and 5 Series. I'll admit - the Lexus GS I4 Turbo is slower. But do you really think people that buy the Base engine for these luxury full-size cars care about the power? From a performance stand point - all three are slow. People aren't buying the Base Engine E-Class and Base Engine 5 Series to go less than a second faster than to 60 compared to the GS.

But Ferrari is a niche brand. They don't won't ever have a big line-up because they are a catering to a small demographic of people.

Business side of things - Toyota doesn't care about the European Market. Toyota's biggest market is North America and Asia - especially USA and China. This is why the new Lexus ES is designed for the Chinese Market - not the US-Market.

Sakura

Business side of things - Toyota doesn't care about the European Market. Toyota's biggest market is North America and Asia - especially USA and China. This is why the new Lexus ES is designed for the Chinese Market - not the US-Market.

Toyota does not care about European market or has not been able to take hold on the European market? TMC is business, they would eagerly has Lexus have some share of the Germans, if they knew how.

Levi

Toyota does not care about European market or has not been able to take hold on the European market? TMC is business, they would eagerly has Lexus have some share of the Germans, if they knew how.

Toyota does not care about the EU Market because they know they'll never take hold of the EU Market and it'll be a waste of time trying. The EU-Market is relatively small compared to North America and Asia - specifically USA and China. China is the hot market right now. So majority of businesses are focusing there - where the money is.

Sakura

Actually - the IS and GS is the equivalent of the 3 Series and 5 Series and C-Class and E-Class. Its the entry-level luxury sports to the luxury sports sedan segment. Lexus IS gets into the Lexus brand and then you upgrade to the Lexus GS. If you ask either IS/GS owner, they will not upgrade to the ES because they don't see it as an upgrade.
The Lexus IS sells fine. If you take a look at their 2014/2015 sales numbers, they were able to rack up similar sales numbers as their 2006 model with the same 10+ year old engine. Lexus IS sales always dip during the refresh years, similarity, during the 2G Lexus IS.

I have always thought - what's the point of the Lexus ES? Lexus is the only brand that has a car slotted in between. Example: The 3/5 Series has nothing slotted in between. Neither does the C/E Class. The only reason Toyota can't let go of the ES is that its a cash magnet.

Secondly - the Lexus IS is Lexus' entry-level sports sedan. Its car that lets you enter the brand of Lexus. If the Lexus axe the IS and the GS, they are 100% leaving the luxury segment for good. They will be abandoning the 3/5 Series and C/E Class segment. Leaving the Germans with all the market-share. Lexus is the only brand capable of catching the Germans. If they drop the IS/GS, they'll end where Acura is - a deep crap hole. No consumer will take them seriously with the ES sedan (Avalon re-skin) as their entry-level option.

Last note: The RC is basically the 4 Series and C-Class coupe competitor.
If Lexus drops the IS, GS, and RC they will be dropping out of the 3 Series, 4 Series, 5 Series, C-Class, C-Class Coupe, and E-Class competition. Also - lets not forget Audi A4 and S4 competition as well.
Without these cars, who would really consider Lexus a luxury brand?

Well the ES was aimed at the 3/C etc initially when it debuted in the USA, even offering a manual. Obviously those buyers didn't jump to an ES and the ES became really a baby LS, down to the two tone colors etc....They even pitched the 2nd gen as sporty and that didn't work either.

At this time Lexus Europe got the IS 200 which was the Toyota Altezza in Japan (1997). Lexus USA started asking for a true entry level sport sedan to battle the 3/C etc head on since the ES didn't do that. The success of the second generation GS also made dealers feel a vehicle slotted under it would work.

Thus we got the IS 300, which gained the 2JZ since dealer feedback was the I-4 in Altezza wasn't appropriate for the car (how times have changed) in the USA and the European I-6 was underpowered.

Thus Lexus had really two distinct lines GS/IS which were sporty and LS/ES which were not.

Fast forward and then the HS joins! A fifth sedan!

Fast forward to today where SUV's now dominate and Lexus has debuted a sportier ES while the GS continues on as the IS. The HS is gone and the LS is now also sporty.

Lexus obviously wants to streamline its sedan lineup but I just do not see a FWD ES making any ground in the market the GS occupies similar to how a FWD ES didn't make any ground where the IS currently lies. There seems to be no AWD coming fast.

That said with the ES going to Europe and the GS getting canned is simply not a good sign.

Sakura

Its not fair to call Lexus products "half-baked" because they offering high-performance engines in some models. That's sort-of-like saying: the Germans are producing "half-baked" products because they don't even last till 50K miles without problems. Or saying German products are "half-baked" because they tons of blank switches and poor cup-holders.

The problem wasn't that the Lexus GS updated too late nor the performance figures of it. I feel like the GS sales numbers can be blamed on these faults:
1) The Lexus ES. Why? The Lexus ES is cheaper and has more room than the Lexus GS. To the average consumer (which is the majority of car-buyers) its a no-brainer to buy a car that is cheaper and has more room. What the average consumer saw was that the Lexus ES is a cheaper Lexus GS. The average consumer wouldn't like pay more for the driving dynamics and RWD of the Lexus GS. I honestly believe - if Lexus product-planned better - they could have sold tons of Lexus GS if they canceled the Lexus ES long ago and made the Lexus GS cheaper.
2) Because the Lexus ES is cheaper and bigger - its easier to sell at dealers. Dealers will have an easier time pushing ES out the door than trying to BS their way into getting an average buyer to pay more for a GS.
3) The Lexus GS doesn't have enough badge prestige for majority of average consumers owners to want to buy one.

Lastly - why I don't think its the power delivery that's a huge factor: MB and BMW both offer I4 Turbos on their base level E-Class and 5 Series. I'll admit - the Lexus GS I4 Turbo is slower. But do you really think people that buy the Base engine for these luxury full-size cars care about the power? From a performance stand point - all three are slow. People aren't buying the Base Engine E-Class and Base Engine 5 Series to go less than a second faster than to 60 compared to the GS.

But Ferrari is a niche brand. They don't won't ever have a big line-up because they are a catering to a small demographic of people.

Business side of things - Toyota doesn't care about the European Market. Toyota's biggest market is North America and Asia - especially USA and China. This is why the new Lexus ES is designed for the Chinese Market - not the US-Market.

Nice post again. I think its not just the ES that hurt the GS but the current RX. In our household as soon as my wife saw the new RX she said it will replace her modified GS F-Sport at the time. For her (and likely most people) you now get a pretty equivalent interior, features and more room and to her more style in a SUV package. She loved her GS but when I suggest a GS F replacement she adamantly wanted a SUV.

I think the RX is so good it also is hurting GS/IS sales. If you really don't push the cars to the limits and just want a nice daily the RX F-Sport fits the bill.

mikeavelli

Well the ES was aimed at the 3/C etc initially when it debuted in the USA, even offering a manual. Obviously those buyers didn't jump to an ES and the ES became really a baby LS, down to the two tone colors etc....They even pitched the 2nd gen as sporty and that didn't work either.

At this time Lexus Europe got the IS 200 which was the Toyota Altezza in Japan (1997). Lexus USA started asking for a true entry level sport sedan to battle the 3/C etc head on since the ES didn't do that. The success of the second generation GS also made dealers feel a vehicle slotted under it would work.

Thus we got the IS 300, which gained the 2JZ since dealer feedback was the I-4 in Altezza wasn't appropriate for the car (how times have changed) in the USA and the European I-6 was underpowered.

Thus Lexus had really two distinct lines GS/IS which were sporty and LS/ES which were not.

Fast forward and then the HS joins! A fifth sedan!

Fast forward to today where SUV's now dominate and Lexus has debuted a sportier ES while the GS continues on as the IS. The HS is gone and the LS is now also sporty.

Lexus obviously wants to streamline its sedan lineup but I just do not see a FWD ES making any ground in the market the GS occupies similar to how a FWD ES didn't make any ground where the IS currently lies. There seems to be no AWD coming fast.

That said with the ES going to Europe and the GS getting canned is simply not a good sign.

Agreed on the agree I bold. +1.

I don't see a FWD ES ever replacing the GS or taking old GS consumers. I don't think the ES F-Sport, ES AWD, or F-Sport AWD ES will either. The Lexus ES isn't built to be sporty - its built to be a luxury sedan. I like your example of how the IS to the GS is like the ES to the LS. The mass majority of its core buyers are elder gentlemen, they will have to build the car mostly directed at this audience.

I think Lexus should have done what MB and BMW does. 3, 5, 7 and C, E, S. So Lexus should do IS, GS, LS. All they gotta do is make the GS cheaper.

mikeavelli

Nice post again. I think its not just the ES that hurt the GS but the current RX. In our household as soon as my wife saw the new RX she said it will replace her modified GS F-Sport at the time. For her (and likely most people) you now get a pretty equivalent interior, features and more room and to her more style in a SUV package. She loved her GS but when I suggest a GS F replacement she adamantly wanted a SUV.

I think the RX is so good it also is hurting GS/IS sales. If you really don't push the cars to the limits and just want a nice daily the RX F-Sport fits the bill.

A good point! I totally forgot about the RX. Especially with the SUV craze going on in the USA right now - its not surprising something like the RX would harm GS sales. For an average consumer that doesn't care about driving dynamics and just want a good daily, the Lexus RX makes much more sense than the Lexus GS.

I would to add to your post as well. I think the Lexus NX is harming the Lexus IS sales in similar ways. The IS and NX are priced similar when loaded. I believe the NX is only a grand more at most but you get 360 Camera. For the average consumer here as well, the NX would probably be more worth it than the Lexus IS.

Sakura

I would to add to your post as well. I think the Lexus NX is harming the Lexus IS sales in similar ways. The IS and NX are priced similar when loaded. I believe the NX is only a grand more at most but you get 360 Camera. For the average consumer here as well, the NX would probably be more worth it than the Lexus IS.

While that's true, I think it's equally likely in the current market that if Lexus didn't have the NX and RX many of those customers would just go get a similar CUV from Acura or Ze Germans.

Ian Schmidt

While that's true, I think it's equally likely in the current market that if Lexus didn't have the NX and RX many of those customers would just go get a similar CUV from Acura or Ze Germans.

That's definitely true. The SUV craze is so intense right now that Lamborghini even made a SUV. The NX and RX is there to get that intense SUV market share for sure. Lexus is doubling down on SUVs too. They are going to add the UX and just trademarked LQ - which many believe is their high-end crossover model. The down side to all of this is - the IS, GS and maybe even LS (if the LQ comes out) will get the short-end of the stick.

Its just unfortunate that cars that are geared towards enthusiast tends to just sell less.

Yeah, I love my LS500 a lot, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't following the LF-1/LQ developments closely.

Sakura

Its just unfortunate that cars that are geared towards enthusiast tends to just sell less.

I'll surmise, a lot of enthusiasts don't put Lexus high on their lists of luxury brands. I also consider the fact that many of these enthusiasts don't keep their cars for over 10 years, since a lot of them would get bored (Luxury car buyers can afford to buy a car more often than not).

Tragic Bronson

I'll surmise, a lot of enthusiasts don't put Lexus high on their lists of luxury brands. I also consider the fact that many of these enthusiasts don't keep their cars for over 10 years, since a lot of them would get bored (Luxury car buyers can afford to buy a car more often than not).

Car enthusiasts is a very general term - its also very broad. That's very true - there will be car enthusiasts that won't put Lexus high on their list or even consider Lexus. But the opposite is also true - there are car enthusiasts that would put Lexus high on their list. Example: car enthusiasts that have small kids, want something RWD, fun-to-drive and can take to the track on the weekends: Lexus IS350, IS-F, RC-F, and stuff. Also - probably the car enthusiasts that plan to keep their car a long-time.

The term is just too broad to be specific. There are car enthusiasts that are rich that only buy used 2nd hand cars. There are car enthusiasts that buy only new luxury cars. There are car enthusiasts that buy that one sports car and keep it forever.

Sakura

Car enthusiasts is a very general term - its also very broad. That's very true - there will be car enthusiasts that won't put Lexus high on their list or even consider Lexus. But the opposite is also true - there are car enthusiasts that would put Lexus high on their list. Example: car enthusiasts that have small kids, want something RWD, fun-to-drive and can take to the track on the weekends: Lexus IS350, IS-F, RC-F, and stuff. Also - probably the car enthusiasts that plan to keep their car a long-time.

The term is just too broad to be specific. There are car enthusiasts that are rich that only buy used 2nd hand cars. There are car enthusiasts that buy only new luxury cars. There are car enthusiasts that buy that one sports car and keep it forever.

CE is a broad term, if you segment and categorize CE, which are already not many compared to "like having a nice car" and "need to get from A to B in 21st century", you will see that within CE there are also even smaller minorities, so carmakers will target the largest segment of CE. The main issue is that all carmakers want to target the largest segment, yet every market research comes up with different results and every carmaker will disagree with each other's interpretation of the results, so will customers. But CE can also take the blame, because more often than not, they car brand loyal, and even if they like some other brand's product, they would prefer their favorite brand to make the same. And this leads to brand dilution most of the time, so now p*ss when some marketing gang (PR) mentions "heritage" and staff like that. There is no more heritage left, maybe just random fragments.

One example:
USP Before Now
3 Series Sport Badge
C Class Comfort Badge
A4 Quattro Badge

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PS: Why BBCode tables do not work?

Sakura

Car enthusiasts is a very general term - its also very broad. That's very true - there will be car enthusiasts that won't put Lexus high on their list or even consider Lexus. But the opposite is also true - there are car enthusiasts that would put Lexus high on their list. Example: car enthusiasts that have small kids, want something RWD, fun-to-drive and can take to the track on the weekends: Lexus IS350, IS-F, RC-F, and stuff. Also - probably the car enthusiasts that plan to keep their car a long-time

Of course there are Lexus enthusiasts (Gee, what website is this place?), just like there are Acura enthusiasts too. I'm saying that in general, from all the opinions and generalizations on forums and media, Lexus wouldn't be the brand that most enthusiasts think of in the luxury class, and its more like most think that the Europeans are the leaders in the luxury sport segment. Before the Giulia became available to the US, there weren't many Alfa Romeo fans because of their past history, but with a competent performing vehicle AND very enticing lease offers, the car has become an enthusiast darling.

But in terms of followings, I would say that BMW tends to have a lot more enthusiasts than most other luxury brands...just google Bimmerfest.

The term is just too broad to be specific. There are car enthusiasts that are rich that only buy used 2nd hand cars. There are car enthusiasts that buy only new luxury cars. There are car enthusiasts that buy that one sports car and keep it forever.

Yes, the term is very broad, and obviously everyone has different tastes. Some are super fanboys, while others could be brand loyal, but that wouldn't preclude them from liking a car from another brand.

Tragic Bronson

Of course there are Lexus enthusiasts (Gee, what website is this place?), just like there are Acura enthusiasts too. I'm saying that in general, from all the opinions and generalizations on forums and media, Lexus wouldn't be the brand that most enthusiasts think of in the luxury class, and its more like most think that the Europeans are the leaders in the luxury sport segment. Before the Giulia became available to the US, there weren't many Alfa Romeo fans because of their past history, but with a competent performing vehicle AND very enticing lease offers, the car has become an enthusiast darling.

But in terms of followings, I would say that BMW tends to have a lot more enthusiasts than most other luxury brands...just google Bimmerfest.

Yes, the term is very broad, and obviously everyone has different tastes. Some are super fanboys, while others could be brand loyal, but that wouldn't preclude them from liking a car from another brand.

I know there are Lexus and Acura enthusiasts. There is many types of car enthusiasts overall - was my point. There are car enthusiasts that buy Yugos, and you really have to be a car enthusiasts to buy an old Communist car.

I know about Bimmerfest/Bimmerpost, and etc... I actually post there from time-to-time. True. Bimmerfest/Bimmerpost is highly active and it could seem like they have a lot more enthusiasts than other luxury brands. That's if we compare luxury brand enthusiasts to other luxury brand enthusiasts; then BMW clearly is the winner.
However - I would believe - that if you factor out the "luxury brand" part of it and count Toyota with Lexus. I believe the Toyota/Lexus car enthusiasts scene is much larger than BMW. I also believe Nissan/Infiniti bunch together is much larger than BMW scene too.
This is based off of - the Japanese Tuner scene is huge and also the VIP scene is also huge.

I don’t mind the SUV craze but can Lexus add some power to the SUV? We need an F for sure and something quick. The SUVs look aggressive but aren’t truly aggressive.

Sakura

I know there are Lexus and Acura enthusiasts. There is many types of car enthusiasts overall - was my point. There are car enthusiasts that buy Yugos, and you really have to be a car enthusiasts to buy an old Communist car.

I know about Bimmerfest/Bimmerpost, and etc... I actually post there from time-to-time. True. Bimmerfest/Bimmerpost is highly active and it could seem like they have a lot more enthusiasts than other luxury brands. That's if we compare luxury brand enthusiasts to other luxury brand enthusiasts; then BMW clearly is the winner.

However - I would believe - that if you factor out the "luxury brand" part of it and count Toyota with Lexus. I believe the Toyota/Lexus car enthusiasts scene is much larger than BMW. I also believe Nissan/Infiniti bunch together is much larger than BMW scene too.
This is based off of - the Japanese Tuner scene is huge and also the VIP scene is also huge.

Oh definitely, a lot of the "tuner" VIP scene does consists of Lexus, albeit older ones more accessible to more younger buyers...IDK if I could say that the Toyota/Lexus car enthusiast scene is larger; Toyotafest is the largest one I know of, but yeah, each make and model has their own gatherings though many places, a general "Import" show is the norm. I'm just old now that I'm not a fan of "stance" and all that stuff popular with the younger enthusiasts today.

James

I don’t mind the SUV craze but can Lexus add some power to the SUV? We need an F for sure and something quick. The SUVs look aggressive but aren’t truly aggressive.

The SUV craze is built on looking tough without actually being tough so in a way that works. But yeah, an RX F would be pretty killer.

Tragic Bronson

I'll surmise, a lot of enthusiasts don't put Lexus high on their lists of luxury brands. I also consider the fact that many of these enthusiasts don't keep their cars for over 10 years, since a lot of them would get bored (Luxury car buyers can afford to buy a car more often than not).

A nuanced topic that got generalized within two full sentences, you don't see that on the internet much.: unamused:

That really depends what an "enthusiast" is defined as, as well as what "luxury brand" is defined as.

But doesn't really matter, anybody that calls themselves an automotive enthusiast should likely understand that there are nuances and that every niche has their own bias.

Now if we're talking about the auto market in general, yes Lexus is a highly desired luxury brand that people aspire to. That is not a very nuanced discussion as it is a generally accepted fact, at least in the relative segment and price point.

zeusus

Now if we're talking about the auto market in general, yes Lexus is a highly desired luxury brand that people aspire to. That is not a very nuanced discussion as it is a generally accepted fact, at least in the relative segment and price point.

Aspire to? That's also subjective as well. Money no object, I'd be "desiring" Prancing Horses and Bulls, but to me, Lexus is a smart choice for luxury car buyers (of course, the LC is one of those vehicles that more people WANT than need). I'll stop here because its OT.

Tragic Bronson

I'll surmise, a lot of enthusiasts don't put Lexus high on their lists of luxury brands. I also consider the fact that many of these enthusiasts don't keep their cars for over 10 years, since a lot of them would get bored (Luxury car buyers can afford to buy a car more often than not).

Indeed true. Proof is here:

https://www.germancarforum.com/threads/poll-your-favorite-hi-end-two-door-coupe.58361/#post-890849

No mention or consideration of the LC, as if it never existed.

(Also not even of the aging but phenomenal GranTurismo.)

Levi

Indeed true. Proof is here:

https://www.germancarforum.com/threads/poll-your-favorite-hi-end-two-door-coupe.58361/#post-890849

No mention or consideration of the LC, as if it never existed.

(Also not even of the aging but phenomenal GranTurismo.)

I'm sorry - but this forum isn't considered "proof". I would consider it bias proof.

This isn't a general forum of car enthusiasts, where all brands come to talk cars. Its literally states "GermanCarForum". So - its obvious majority of the answers won't be Japanese cars but rather German-based or Europeans. The polls didn't even have one Japanese car. I find that tons of German car enthusiasts are actually European car enthusiasts (includes Aston, Bentley, Alfa, and etc...)

Its pretty obvious Lexus won't be ranked high among German (European) car enthusiasts. Its just like how German (European) cars won't be rank high among the Japanese car enthusiasts crowd.

What if I start a poll on ClubLexus or LexusEnthusiasts, about everyone's favorite high-end coupe. What if these answers are skewed towards Lexus (because Lexus forums)?
That means: I can't use this as proof that German cars aren't ranked high among car enthusiasts. Its a one sided form - just like your link.