Lexus GS Sedan Not Going Anywhere, Will Continue Sales in North America

Posted by Kevin on June 12th, 2018

Lexus will continue to sell the GS sports sedan in North America for the foreseeable future, as confirmed with both Lexus USA and Lexus Canada.

“The Lexus GS has been an important part of the Lexus line-up since 1993 and we value its role as a sports sedan,” Lexus USA spokesperson Ed Hellwig explained over email. “We will continue to offer the GS in the United States, and will evaluate how best to meet our customers’ needs going forward.”

The future of the GS sports sedan was called into question recently when Lexus Europe discontinued the model due to new emission regulations. It will be replaced in the region by the new seventh-generation ES sedan.

Despite the promise of continued sales, there is no guarantee the GS will see a next-generation model. Lexus would not comment on future product plans.

CanadaLexus GS: Fourth GenerationUSA
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Comments
maiaramdan
ssun30
There are a lot of rumors saying it will become FWD and no longer share platform with IS, which is a very confusing business decision.
No way they will turn it to FWD for 2 reasons

1) it will be nearly same Camry size and that's why they killed the Aurion.

2) the Mark-X is the successor of Brevis / Verossa / Mark-2 / Chaser / Cresta / Cressida which was a Supra 4 doors.

So they will either kill it or make a new RWD generation of it but they will never mess with the name, Toyota never did it before.
maiaramdan
ssun30
There are a lot of rumors saying it will become FWD and no longer share platform with IS, which is a very confusing business decision.
No way they will turn it to FWD for 2 reasons

1) it will be nearly same Camry size and that's why they killed the Aurion.

2) the Mark-X is the successor of Brevis / Verossa / Mark-2 / Chaser / Cresta / Cressida which was a Supra 4 doors.

So they will either kill it or make a new RWD generation of it but they will never mess with the name, Toyota never did it before.
Joaquin Ruhi
mikeavelli
BTW whats up with the Toyota Crown?
According to the Toyota Global Newsroom, the commercial (production) model of the Crown Concept (shown at the 2017 Tokyo Motor Show) is scheduled to be released around the summer of 2018.

ssun30
There are a lot of rumors saying (Mark X) will become FWD and no longer share platform with IS, which is a very confusing business decision.
Beyond confusing, it would be an automotive sacrilege on the order of owning a Mazda MX-5 Miata with an automatic transmission or applying the Mitsubishi Eclipse badge to a crossover SUV.

To me, this plan smells of taking the new 5th-gen U.S. Toyota Avalon and building it in Japan as the 3rd-gen Toyota Mark X and in China as the 3rd-gen Toyota Reiz.

Had Lexus offered an AWD option on the just-unveiled 7th-gen Lexus ES (the 5th-gen Avalon's fraternal twin), I would be more at ease with this possibility, but the lack of AWD on the 7ES deeply disturbs me, as I know it does others on these forums. It is a major faux pas, one that would be even worse if repeated on what has been Toyota's sportiest, most enthusiast-oriented JDM mid-sized sedan.

maiaramdan
Maybe this will be a solution in all countries replacing the GS, but in other question what's up with the Mark-X will Toyota kill it also and concentrate only on the Crown or they will have a next generation of it
Honestly, this conversation is giving me a strong sense of déjà vu, and, rather than repeating ourselves, I refer you to what was said in the Toyota Crown Concept thread back in October 2017.
Joaquin Ruhi
mikeavelli
BTW whats up with the Toyota Crown?
According to the Toyota Global Newsroom, the commercial (production) model of the Crown Concept (shown at the 2017 Tokyo Motor Show) is scheduled to be released around the summer of 2018.

ssun30
There are a lot of rumors saying (Mark X) will become FWD and no longer share platform with IS, which is a very confusing business decision.
Beyond confusing, it would be an automotive sacrilege on the order of owning a Mazda MX-5 Miata with an automatic transmission or applying the Mitsubishi Eclipse badge to a crossover SUV.

To me, this plan smells of taking the new 5th-gen U.S. Toyota Avalon and building it in Japan as the 3rd-gen Toyota Mark X and in China as the 3rd-gen Toyota Reiz.

Had Lexus offered an AWD option on the just-unveiled 7th-gen Lexus ES (the 5th-gen Avalon's fraternal twin), I would be more at ease with this possibility, but the lack of AWD on the 7ES deeply disturbs me, as I know it does others on these forums. It is a major faux pas, one that would be even worse if repeated on what has been Toyota's sportiest, most enthusiast-oriented JDM mid-sized sedan.

maiaramdan
Maybe this will be a solution in all countries replacing the GS, but in other question what's up with the Mark-X will Toyota kill it also and concentrate only on the Crown or they will have a next generation of it
Honestly, this conversation is giving me a strong sense of déjà vu, and, rather than repeating ourselves, I refer you to what was said in the Toyota Crown Concept thread back in October 2017.
Joaquin Ruhi
mikeavelli
BTW whats up with the Toyota Crown?
According to the Toyota Global Newsroom, the commercial (production) model of the Crown Concept (shown at the 2017 Tokyo Motor Show) is scheduled to be released around the summer of 2018.

ssun30
There are a lot of rumors saying (Mark X) will become FWD and no longer share platform with IS, which is a very confusing business decision.
Beyond confusing, it would be an automotive sacrilege on the order of owning a Mazda MX-5 Miata with an automatic transmission or applying the Mitsubishi Eclipse badge to a crossover SUV.

To me, this plan smells of taking the new 5th-gen U.S. Toyota Avalon and building it in Japan as the 3rd-gen Toyota Mark X and in China as the 3rd-gen Toyota Reiz.

Had Lexus offered an AWD option on the just-unveiled 7th-gen Lexus ES (the 5th-gen Avalon's fraternal twin), I would be more at ease with this possibility, but the lack of AWD on the 7ES deeply disturbs me, as I know it does others on these forums. It is a major faux pas, one that would be even worse if repeated on what has been Toyota's sportiest, most enthusiast-oriented JDM mid-sized sedan.

maiaramdan
Maybe this will be a solution in all countries replacing the GS, but in other question what's up with the Mark-X will Toyota kill it also and concentrate only on the Crown or they will have a next generation of it
Honestly, this conversation is giving me a strong sense of déjà vu, and, rather than repeating ourselves, I refer you to what was said in the Toyota Crown Concept thread back in October 2017.
maiaramdan
@Joaquin Ruhi

1) regarding the AWD it makes me feel that the new generation ES won't be the GS successor as if it's a secret message between the lines

2) regarding the Crown yes we all know it will be in summer or most of us here at least, my question is will the Crown top the Avalon to be there new flagship and take the role of GS world wide , or it will be still between Japan & Oceania?

3) regarding the Mark-X if Toyota want make it FWD they will give it a new name and retired this name completely as Toyota always do, they have no idea to retire a nameplate but don't change the he name plate audience or category.
maiaramdan
@Joaquin Ruhi

1) regarding the AWD it makes me feel that the new generation ES won't be the GS successor as if it's a secret message between the lines

2) regarding the Crown yes we all know it will be in summer or most of us here at least, my question is will the Crown top the Avalon to be there new flagship and take the role of GS world wide , or it will be still between Japan & Oceania?

3) regarding the Mark-X if Toyota want make it FWD they will give it a new name and retired this name completely as Toyota always do, they have no idea to retire a nameplate but don't change the he name plate audience or category.
maiaramdan
@Joaquin Ruhi

1) regarding the AWD it makes me feel that the new generation ES won't be the GS successor as if it's a secret message between the lines

2) regarding the Crown yes we all know it will be in summer or most of us here at least, my question is will the Crown top the Avalon to be there new flagship and take the role of GS world wide , or it will be still between Japan & Oceania?

3) regarding the Mark-X if Toyota want make it FWD they will give it a new name and retired this name completely as Toyota always do, they have no idea to retire a nameplate but don't change the he name plate audience or category.
Joaquin Ruhi
maiaramdan
1) regarding the AWD it makes me feel that the new generation ES won't be the GS successor as if it's a secret message between the lines
I really, really want you to be right on this, but I place more credence in Carmaker1's assertion that the 5GS program is dead. What really bothers me is not so much that 7ES is replacing the GS, but that they went partway towards proving this was possible (launching with an F Sport model and offering it in Ultrasonic Blue) but stopped short by omitting the most critical element: a performance-oriented AWD option to mitigate the very wrongness of FWD-only for a sports sedan worthy of rivaling the Germans, and even Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti.

The Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system that will debut in its platform-mate 5th-gen RAV4 would've been such a natural in the 7ES, but no...

2) regarding the Crown yes we all know it will be in summer or most of us here at least, my question is will the Crown top the Avalon to be there new flagship and take the role of GS world wide , or it will be still between Japan & Oceania?
I think that Crown will remain the Toyota brand's flagship, but remain an Asia-only offering. If any Asian markets were to offer both Avalon and Crown, Crown would sit above Avalon.

3) regarding the Mark-X if Toyota want make it FWD they will give it a new name and retired this name completely as Toyota always do, they have no idea to retire a nameplate but don't change the he name plate audience or category.
I totally agree with you there. If Toyota ultimately decides to use a FWD, Avalon-derived model as a replacement for Mark X, better to retire the Mark X badge.
Joaquin Ruhi
maiaramdan
1) regarding the AWD it makes me feel that the new generation ES won't be the GS successor as if it's a secret message between the lines
I really, really want you to be right on this, but I place more credence in Carmaker1's assertion that the 5GS program is dead. What really bothers me is not so much that 7ES is replacing the GS, but that they went partway towards proving this was possible (launching with an F Sport model and offering it in Ultrasonic Blue) but stopped short by omitting the most critical element: a performance-oriented AWD option to mitigate the very wrongness of FWD-only for a sports sedan worthy of rivaling the Germans, and even Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti.

The Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system that will debut in its platform-mate 5th-gen RAV4 would've been such a natural in the 7ES, but no...

2) regarding the Crown yes we all know it will be in summer or most of us here at least, my question is will the Crown top the Avalon to be there new flagship and take the role of GS world wide , or it will be still between Japan & Oceania?
I think that Crown will remain the Toyota brand's flagship, but remain an Asia-only offering. If any Asian markets were to offer both Avalon and Crown, Crown would sit above Avalon.

3) regarding the Mark-X if Toyota want make it FWD they will give it a new name and retired this name completely as Toyota always do, they have no idea to retire a nameplate but don't change the he name plate audience or category.
I totally agree with you there. If Toyota ultimately decides to use a FWD, Avalon-derived model as a replacement for Mark X, better to retire the Mark X badge.
Joaquin Ruhi
maiaramdan
1) regarding the AWD it makes me feel that the new generation ES won't be the GS successor as if it's a secret message between the lines
I really, really want you to be right on this, but I place more credence in Carmaker1's assertion that the 5GS program is dead. What really bothers me is not so much that 7ES is replacing the GS, but that they went partway towards proving this was possible (launching with an F Sport model and offering it in Ultrasonic Blue) but stopped short by omitting the most critical element: a performance-oriented AWD option to mitigate the very wrongness of FWD-only for a sports sedan worthy of rivaling the Germans, and even Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti.

The Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system that will debut in its platform-mate 5th-gen RAV4 would've been such a natural in the 7ES, but no...

2) regarding the Crown yes we all know it will be in summer or most of us here at least, my question is will the Crown top the Avalon to be there new flagship and take the role of GS world wide , or it will be still between Japan & Oceania?
I think that Crown will remain the Toyota brand's flagship, but remain an Asia-only offering. If any Asian markets were to offer both Avalon and Crown, Crown would sit above Avalon.

3) regarding the Mark-X if Toyota want make it FWD they will give it a new name and retired this name completely as Toyota always do, they have no idea to retire a nameplate but don't change the he name plate audience or category.
I totally agree with you there. If Toyota ultimately decides to use a FWD, Avalon-derived model as a replacement for Mark X, better to retire the Mark X badge.
B
Lexus please make a next generation GS. Make it a four door coupe even. Who cares if it's not best selling thing out there. You shouldn't give up on this segment. All the ingredients are there for you to use such as the GA-L platform,twin turbo V6 in the LS, twin turbo V8 coming for the GSF. Please reconsider Lexus. It's for brand image and own good.
B
Lexus please make a next generation GS. Make it a four door coupe even. Who cares if it's not best selling thing out there. You shouldn't give up on this segment. All the ingredients are there for you to use such as the GA-L platform,twin turbo V6 in the LS, twin turbo V8 coming for the GSF. Please reconsider Lexus. It's for brand image and own good.
B
Lexus please make a next generation GS. Make it a four door coupe even. Who cares if it's not best selling thing out there. You shouldn't give up on this segment. All the ingredients are there for you to use such as the GA-L platform,twin turbo V6 in the LS, twin turbo V8 coming for the GSF. Please reconsider Lexus. It's for brand image and own good.
maiaramdan
Joaquin Ruhi
I really, really want you to be right on this, but I place more credence in Carmaker1's assertion that the 5GS program is dead. What really bothers me is not so much that 7ES is replacing the GS, but that they went partway towards proving this was possible (launching with an F Sport model and offering it in Ultrasonic Blue) but stopped short by omitting the most critical element: a performance-oriented AWD option to mitigate the very wrongness of FWD-only for a sports sedan worthy of rivaling the Germans, and even Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti.

The Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system that will debut in its platform-mate 5th-gen RAV4 would've been such a natural in the 7ES, but no...
I'm not insider, so of course Carmaker1 knows more, my point is by this move they tend to compete with Cadillac , Lincoln, Volvo, Jaguar, Acura & Infiniti instead of competing with Benz, BMW & Audi
They need to push a more european shot of performance and luxury and this will never happen with the ES

Joaquin Ruhi
I think that Crown will remain the Toyota brand's flagship, but remain an Asia-only offering. If any Asian markets were to offer both Avalon and Crown, Crown would sit above Avalon.
About Crown I am thinking
VAG considered premium now and Hyundai and Kia succeed selling RWD sedans , so why Toyota won't return to this market again, the car is already here and with top notch quality, there's a lot of reasons makes me think in this direction
1. Crown: it's one of the eldest nameplates and it will not cost them any excess R&D money.
2. Supra: it's near and with 2 coupes in the lineup they need at least one other sedan to justify the case.
3. LF-1: with trying to make more separation between Lexus & Toyota, the next step that everyone of them cover the different categories by its own way, so for example the next LX will be unibody based on LF-1 and the next Land Cruiser will be continued as BOF Ladder architecture, this can be also appears on the way they are doing the coupes, while both Lexus coupes "LC & RC" are a GT luxurious coupes that can perform well the Toyota coupes "Supra & GT" areade with handling to be a handling and yet performance guru from day one
maiaramdan
Joaquin Ruhi
I really, really want you to be right on this, but I place more credence in Carmaker1's assertion that the 5GS program is dead. What really bothers me is not so much that 7ES is replacing the GS, but that they went partway towards proving this was possible (launching with an F Sport model and offering it in Ultrasonic Blue) but stopped short by omitting the most critical element: a performance-oriented AWD option to mitigate the very wrongness of FWD-only for a sports sedan worthy of rivaling the Germans, and even Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti.

The Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system that will debut in its platform-mate 5th-gen RAV4 would've been such a natural in the 7ES, but no...
I'm not insider, so of course Carmaker1 knows more, my point is by this move they tend to compete with Cadillac , Lincoln, Volvo, Jaguar, Acura & Infiniti instead of competing with Benz, BMW & Audi
They need to push a more european shot of performance and luxury and this will never happen with the ES

Joaquin Ruhi
I think that Crown will remain the Toyota brand's flagship, but remain an Asia-only offering. If any Asian markets were to offer both Avalon and Crown, Crown would sit above Avalon.
About Crown I am thinking
VAG considered premium now and Hyundai and Kia succeed selling RWD sedans , so why Toyota won't return to this market again, the car is already here and with top notch quality, there's a lot of reasons makes me think in this direction
1. Crown: it's one of the eldest nameplates and it will not cost them any excess R&D money.
2. Supra: it's near and with 2 coupes in the lineup they need at least one other sedan to justify the case.
3. LF-1: with trying to make more separation between Lexus & Toyota, the next step that everyone of them cover the different categories by its own way, so for example the next LX will be unibody based on LF-1 and the next Land Cruiser will be continued as BOF Ladder architecture, this can be also appears on the way they are doing the coupes, while both Lexus coupes "LC & RC" are a GT luxurious coupes that can perform well the Toyota coupes "Supra & GT" areade with handling to be a handling and yet performance guru from day one
maiaramdan
Joaquin Ruhi
I really, really want you to be right on this, but I place more credence in Carmaker1's assertion that the 5GS program is dead. What really bothers me is not so much that 7ES is replacing the GS, but that they went partway towards proving this was possible (launching with an F Sport model and offering it in Ultrasonic Blue) but stopped short by omitting the most critical element: a performance-oriented AWD option to mitigate the very wrongness of FWD-only for a sports sedan worthy of rivaling the Germans, and even Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti.

The Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system that will debut in its platform-mate 5th-gen RAV4 would've been such a natural in the 7ES, but no...
I'm not insider, so of course Carmaker1 knows more, my point is by this move they tend to compete with Cadillac , Lincoln, Volvo, Jaguar, Acura & Infiniti instead of competing with Benz, BMW & Audi
They need to push a more european shot of performance and luxury and this will never happen with the ES

Joaquin Ruhi
I think that Crown will remain the Toyota brand's flagship, but remain an Asia-only offering. If any Asian markets were to offer both Avalon and Crown, Crown would sit above Avalon.
About Crown I am thinking
VAG considered premium now and Hyundai and Kia succeed selling RWD sedans , so why Toyota won't return to this market again, the car is already here and with top notch quality, there's a lot of reasons makes me think in this direction
1. Crown: it's one of the eldest nameplates and it will not cost them any excess R&D money.
2. Supra: it's near and with 2 coupes in the lineup they need at least one other sedan to justify the case.
3. LF-1: with trying to make more separation between Lexus & Toyota, the next step that everyone of them cover the different categories by its own way, so for example the next LX will be unibody based on LF-1 and the next Land Cruiser will be continued as BOF Ladder architecture, this can be also appears on the way they are doing the coupes, while both Lexus coupes "LC & RC" are a GT luxurious coupes that can perform well the Toyota coupes "Supra & GT" areade with handling to be a handling and yet performance guru from day one
L
Carmaker1
And it is curtains for the GS indeed. :mad: Despite having brought cancellation rumour to surface in late 2016 straight from Japan, I backtracked upon discussing it some months later with a few parties in spring 2017. Last week, I spoke with a Lexus UK rep who I ran into at a Lexus dealer outside London. He has confirmed for me, it will indeed be solely replaced by the ES. The L10 successor is no longer on schedule. In now reviewing recently updated industry database info for suppliers, some still say the same info and a few state "TBD".

The idea for the UK market, is to offer the new ES as a discount alternative to the G30 5-Series and W213 E-Class, just as the LS was targeted as a discount alternative to the W222 (and upcoming W223 S-Class), that sits between the E-class and S-Class. A new GS will no longer be coming this decade.

This idea works with LS (somewhat), but with the ES, I don't know about that at all. It is not convincing to me and a terribly cynical marketing exercise.

As for the next IS sedan, he has seen that car and it is roughly 2 years away (UK market). The RC might be absorbed into the 4IS lineup, by 2022. The possibility of forgoing the entry level luxury 2-door market was not answered directly by him, as product planning hasn't progressed to that point from what he currently knows.

Regarding the GS, I am very disappointed, after all this back and forth the past year. I want know why the individuals who confirmed 300B was coming last spring (to me privately), got their internal info from and how they missed any internal changes along the way. Especially if they attended internal showcases or had certain responsibilities, which provides privileged access.

And for those suggesting it will become a crossover, well...uhm...no it won't. :confused: Anything that uses the current nomenclature clearly will not bear the name GS, if anything other than a sedan. GX is already taken up, for the next 5 years at minimum, and GC =/= GS. GX will be updated heavily next year.

A 4-door, 4-seater sports car could bear the name GS though (just not next year at this point), but how do they justify the application of GS for a "coupe" model? Simply put, if the GS is dead as a 4-door sedan, it is simply GONE. A crossover will never be a GS, particularly when again, a nameplate factors in. The LF-1 under Project 650B will utilize flagship nomenclature and cannot use "S" in its naming. LX SportCross makes more sense. Mid-range crossover will clash with RX and NX and I don't see them doing such a model anyway, outside of a flagship model a la LF-1.

Unless this car is still being developed so much on the low as an extremely niche product (like Ford GT), I can't understand why a new GS-F was ongoing some months ago?:confused:
Lexus will sell ES as family sedan in all markets, but a new GSF is still coming as a more race-focus and sportier F car.
GSF will be a new series itself, with 2.5/3.0/3.5L TTV6 engine provides 400+hp and 4.0/4.4L TTV8 provides 670hp.
That's not a joke. Saw the info on JPN website before. IF you wanna a reliable green sedan, go with ES300H. IF you wanna a sport version of LEXUS sedan in low price, then go with ES250 F sport or ES350 Fsport. IF you wanna a high-per LEXUS sedan, go with the new Gazoo-tuned GSF...Sounds good
L
Carmaker1
And it is curtains for the GS indeed. :mad: Despite having brought cancellation rumour to surface in late 2016 straight from Japan, I backtracked upon discussing it some months later with a few parties in spring 2017. Last week, I spoke with a Lexus UK rep who I ran into at a Lexus dealer outside London. He has confirmed for me, it will indeed be solely replaced by the ES. The L10 successor is no longer on schedule. In now reviewing recently updated industry database info for suppliers, some still say the same info and a few state "TBD".

The idea for the UK market, is to offer the new ES as a discount alternative to the G30 5-Series and W213 E-Class, just as the LS was targeted as a discount alternative to the W222 (and upcoming W223 S-Class), that sits between the E-class and S-Class. A new GS will no longer be coming this decade.

This idea works with LS (somewhat), but with the ES, I don't know about that at all. It is not convincing to me and a terribly cynical marketing exercise.

As for the next IS sedan, he has seen that car and it is roughly 2 years away (UK market). The RC might be absorbed into the 4IS lineup, by 2022. The possibility of forgoing the entry level luxury 2-door market was not answered directly by him, as product planning hasn't progressed to that point from what he currently knows.

Regarding the GS, I am very disappointed, after all this back and forth the past year. I want know why the individuals who confirmed 300B was coming last spring (to me privately), got their internal info from and how they missed any internal changes along the way. Especially if they attended internal showcases or had certain responsibilities, which provides privileged access.

And for those suggesting it will become a crossover, well...uhm...no it won't. :confused: Anything that uses the current nomenclature clearly will not bear the name GS, if anything other than a sedan. GX is already taken up, for the next 5 years at minimum, and GC =/= GS. GX will be updated heavily next year.

A 4-door, 4-seater sports car could bear the name GS though (just not next year at this point), but how do they justify the application of GS for a "coupe" model? Simply put, if the GS is dead as a 4-door sedan, it is simply GONE. A crossover will never be a GS, particularly when again, a nameplate factors in. The LF-1 under Project 650B will utilize flagship nomenclature and cannot use "S" in its naming. LX SportCross makes more sense. Mid-range crossover will clash with RX and NX and I don't see them doing such a model anyway, outside of a flagship model a la LF-1.

Unless this car is still being developed so much on the low as an extremely niche product (like Ford GT), I can't understand why a new GS-F was ongoing some months ago?:confused:
Lexus will sell ES as family sedan in all markets, but a new GSF is still coming as a more race-focus and sportier F car.
GSF will be a new series itself, with 2.5/3.0/3.5L TTV6 engine provides 400+hp and 4.0/4.4L TTV8 provides 670hp.
That's not a joke. Saw the info on JPN website before. IF you wanna a reliable green sedan, go with ES300H. IF you wanna a sport version of LEXUS sedan in low price, then go with ES250 F sport or ES350 Fsport. IF you wanna a high-per LEXUS sedan, go with the new Gazoo-tuned GSF...Sounds good
L
Carmaker1
And it is curtains for the GS indeed. :mad: Despite having brought cancellation rumour to surface in late 2016 straight from Japan, I backtracked upon discussing it some months later with a few parties in spring 2017. Last week, I spoke with a Lexus UK rep who I ran into at a Lexus dealer outside London. He has confirmed for me, it will indeed be solely replaced by the ES. The L10 successor is no longer on schedule. In now reviewing recently updated industry database info for suppliers, some still say the same info and a few state "TBD".

The idea for the UK market, is to offer the new ES as a discount alternative to the G30 5-Series and W213 E-Class, just as the LS was targeted as a discount alternative to the W222 (and upcoming W223 S-Class), that sits between the E-class and S-Class. A new GS will no longer be coming this decade.

This idea works with LS (somewhat), but with the ES, I don't know about that at all. It is not convincing to me and a terribly cynical marketing exercise.

As for the next IS sedan, he has seen that car and it is roughly 2 years away (UK market). The RC might be absorbed into the 4IS lineup, by 2022. The possibility of forgoing the entry level luxury 2-door market was not answered directly by him, as product planning hasn't progressed to that point from what he currently knows.

Regarding the GS, I am very disappointed, after all this back and forth the past year. I want know why the individuals who confirmed 300B was coming last spring (to me privately), got their internal info from and how they missed any internal changes along the way. Especially if they attended internal showcases or had certain responsibilities, which provides privileged access.

And for those suggesting it will become a crossover, well...uhm...no it won't. :confused: Anything that uses the current nomenclature clearly will not bear the name GS, if anything other than a sedan. GX is already taken up, for the next 5 years at minimum, and GC =/= GS. GX will be updated heavily next year.

A 4-door, 4-seater sports car could bear the name GS though (just not next year at this point), but how do they justify the application of GS for a "coupe" model? Simply put, if the GS is dead as a 4-door sedan, it is simply GONE. A crossover will never be a GS, particularly when again, a nameplate factors in. The LF-1 under Project 650B will utilize flagship nomenclature and cannot use "S" in its naming. LX SportCross makes more sense. Mid-range crossover will clash with RX and NX and I don't see them doing such a model anyway, outside of a flagship model a la LF-1.

Unless this car is still being developed so much on the low as an extremely niche product (like Ford GT), I can't understand why a new GS-F was ongoing some months ago?:confused:
Lexus will sell ES as family sedan in all markets, but a new GSF is still coming as a more race-focus and sportier F car.
GSF will be a new series itself, with 2.5/3.0/3.5L TTV6 engine provides 400+hp and 4.0/4.4L TTV8 provides 670hp.
That's not a joke. Saw the info on JPN website before. IF you wanna a reliable green sedan, go with ES300H. IF you wanna a sport version of LEXUS sedan in low price, then go with ES250 F sport or ES350 Fsport. IF you wanna a high-per LEXUS sedan, go with the new Gazoo-tuned GSF...Sounds good
S
maiaramdan
No way they will turn it to FWD for 2 reasons

1) it will be nearly same Camry size and that's why they killed the Aurion.

2) the Mark-X is the successor of Brevis / Verossa / Mark-2 / Chaser / Cresta / Cressida which was a Supra 4 doors.

So they will either kill it or make a new RWD generation of it but they will never mess with the name, Toyota never did it before.
Exactly. The FWD Mark X rumor makes zero sense.
S
maiaramdan
No way they will turn it to FWD for 2 reasons

1) it will be nearly same Camry size and that's why they killed the Aurion.

2) the Mark-X is the successor of Brevis / Verossa / Mark-2 / Chaser / Cresta / Cressida which was a Supra 4 doors.

So they will either kill it or make a new RWD generation of it but they will never mess with the name, Toyota never did it before.
Exactly. The FWD Mark X rumor makes zero sense.
S
maiaramdan
No way they will turn it to FWD for 2 reasons

1) it will be nearly same Camry size and that's why they killed the Aurion.

2) the Mark-X is the successor of Brevis / Verossa / Mark-2 / Chaser / Cresta / Cressida which was a Supra 4 doors.

So they will either kill it or make a new RWD generation of it but they will never mess with the name, Toyota never did it before.
Exactly. The FWD Mark X rumor makes zero sense.
Trexus
This is very sad news about the GS...:sob::sob::sob: Lexus is going the wrong way. If the GS goes away, what about the GS F. This puts a hole in the F performance line.

IS F (seriously bring back)
GS F (leaves a hole in the mid-size segment)
LS F (seriously bring it on)
RC F (still around and hopefully stays around)
LC F (seriously bring it on)
Trexus
This is very sad news about the GS...:sob::sob::sob: Lexus is going the wrong way. If the GS goes away, what about the GS F. This puts a hole in the F performance line.

IS F (seriously bring back)
GS F (leaves a hole in the mid-size segment)
LS F (seriously bring it on)
RC F (still around and hopefully stays around)
LC F (seriously bring it on)
Trexus
This is very sad news about the GS...:sob::sob::sob: Lexus is going the wrong way. If the GS goes away, what about the GS F. This puts a hole in the F performance line.

IS F (seriously bring back)
GS F (leaves a hole in the mid-size segment)
LS F (seriously bring it on)
RC F (still around and hopefully stays around)
LC F (seriously bring it on)
Carmaker1
meth.ix
Damn it feels like a wasted effort on the GS F if they're only going to have a GS for this generation.

If Lexus makes an ES F, I will be seriously disappointed in Lexus. The ES is the complete opposite of a performance sedan.

GS at least must become a 4-door coupe, in fact, that might be better because it will help customers differentiate it from the ES as a more performance-oriented vehicle over the ES which is oriented towards families.


ssun30
There are a lot of rumors saying it will become FWD and no longer share platform with IS, which is a very confusing business decision.
And...finally someone mentions a tidbit of mine from a year or two ago, where I mentioned that the Mark X was going to go front wheel drive! I read that from both China and Japanese websites. Doesn't seem sensible, but I remember Toyota is trying cut down on JDM offerings.

Gecko
Unfortunately, all of this plus the cancellation of the GS are why Mercedes, BMW and Audi just continue to pull away from Lexus in terms of prestige and cache. Those brands understand that everything doesn't have to be a perfect cut and dry business case with 50% profit margins. Thank god for LC - if we didn't have that car, Lexus would virtually be Acura at this point.
LOL, especially Audi. That is who has been tugging at Lexus for years and will dethrone them, if MSB becomes a thing with A6 and A8. How much of this Toyoda's influence versus that of him being hamstrung by other senior personnel?

maiaramdan
No way they will turn it to FWD for 2 reasons

1) it will be nearly same Camry size and that's why they killed the Aurion.

2) the Mark-X is the successor of Brevis / Verossa / Mark-2 / Chaser / Cresta / Cressida which was a Supra 4 doors.

So they will either kill it or make a new RWD generation of it but they will never mess with the name, Toyota never did it before.
Excellent point, that didn't occur to me until I read it. The Camry makes that an impossible proposition, if not dimwitted one at that. Unless XV70 Camry stays FWD, while Mark X TNGA-K AWD where both are sold.

Joaquin Ruhi
I really, really want you to be right on this, but I place more credence in Carmaker1's assertion that the 5GS program is dead. What really bothers me is not so much that 7ES is replacing the GS, but that they went partway towards proving this was possible (launching with an F Sport model and offering it in Ultrasonic Blue) but stopped short by omitting the most critical element: a performance-oriented AWD option to mitigate the very wrongness of FWD-only for a sports sedan worthy of rivaling the Germans, and even Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti.

The Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system that will debut in its platform-mate 5th-gen RAV4 would've been such a natural in the 7ES, but no...


I think that Crown will remain the Toyota brand's flagship, but remain an Asia-only offering. If any Asian markets were to offer both Avalon and Crown, Crown would sit above Avalon.


I totally agree with you there. If Toyota ultimately decides to use a FWD, Avalon-derived model as a replacement for Mark X, better to retire the Mark X badge.
The Avalon was once sold in Japan, during the first generation alongside it. A longer wheelbase GA-K with AWD and "performance focus" : unamused: might be of target.

maiaramdan
I'm not insider, so of course Carmaker1 knows more, my point is by this move they tend to compete with Cadillac , Lincoln, Volvo, Jaguar, Acura & Infiniti instead of competing with Benz, BMW & Audi
They need to push a more european shot of performance and luxury and this will never happen with the ES



About Crown I am thinking
VAG considered premium now and Hyundai and Kia succeed selling RWD sedans , so why Toyota won't return to this market again, the car is already here and with top notch quality, there's a lot of reasons makes me think in this direction
1. Crown: it's one of the eldest nameplates and it will not cost them any excess R&D money.
2. Supra: it's near and with 2 coupes in the lineup they need at least one other sedan to justify the case.
3. LF-1: with trying to make more separation between Lexus & Toyota, the next step that everyone of them cover the different categories by its own way, so for example the next LX will be unibody based on LF-1 and the next Land Cruiser will be continued as BOF Ladder architecture, this can be also appears on the way they are doing the coupes, while both Lexus coupes "LC & RC" are a GT luxurious coupes that can perform well the Toyota coupes "Supra & GT" areade with handling to be a handling and yet performance guru from day one
No, just no. I think I recently said that the LX will NOT go unibody and the LF1 has no bearing on it. They are two different model programs, named 220X and 650B. One on GA-L and the other GA-F. As I typing this, the GX might easily go GA-L unibody come 2022-23 after swan song update for 2020.

There is no need to justify anything regarding the Supra, as costs are already shared with BMW's Z4. Lexus brand is not part of that agreement with BMW, for competitive reasons. Otherwise, a sporting SC coupe would've been of ease. A Toyota-only developed A100 or MK6, is the only time that becomes a thought.

LEONWEST
Lexus will sell ES as family sedan in all markets, but a new GSF is still coming as a more race-focus and sportier F car.
GSF will be a new series itself, with 2.5/3.0/3.5L TTV6 engine provides 400+hp and 4.0/4.4L TTV8 provides 670hp.
That's not a joke. Saw the info on JPN website before. IF you wanna a reliable green sedan, go with ES300H. IF you wanna a sport version of LEXUS sedan in low price, then go with ES250 F sport or ES350 Fsport. IF you wanna a high-per LEXUS sedan, go with the new Gazoo-tuned GSF...Sounds good
You are not entirely wrong, but how recent is this information is the question? As I had similar information last year and held out hope for that very reason. There wouldn't be good business case for such a super niche vehicle, with poor economies of scale as solely an F model. Anything is possible, even if I got it straight from a UK guy that has seen the next IS and CUVs. I am not the only person who has heard otherwise.

ssun30
Exactly. The FWD Mark X rumor makes zero sense.
There are ways around that. Make a fully reskinned Camry XSE/Sportivo, with AWD and some serious tuning to differentiate. Not ideal, but tries to understand their convoluted decision making process.
Carmaker1
meth.ix
Damn it feels like a wasted effort on the GS F if they're only going to have a GS for this generation.

If Lexus makes an ES F, I will be seriously disappointed in Lexus. The ES is the complete opposite of a performance sedan.

GS at least must become a 4-door coupe, in fact, that might be better because it will help customers differentiate it from the ES as a more performance-oriented vehicle over the ES which is oriented towards families.


ssun30
There are a lot of rumors saying it will become FWD and no longer share platform with IS, which is a very confusing business decision.
And...finally someone mentions a tidbit of mine from a year or two ago, where I mentioned that the Mark X was going to go front wheel drive! I read that from both China and Japanese websites. Doesn't seem sensible, but I remember Toyota is trying cut down on JDM offerings.

Gecko
Unfortunately, all of this plus the cancellation of the GS are why Mercedes, BMW and Audi just continue to pull away from Lexus in terms of prestige and cache. Those brands understand that everything doesn't have to be a perfect cut and dry business case with 50% profit margins. Thank god for LC - if we didn't have that car, Lexus would virtually be Acura at this point.
LOL, especially Audi. That is who has been tugging at Lexus for years and will dethrone them, if MSB becomes a thing with A6 and A8. How much of this Toyoda's influence versus that of him being hamstrung by other senior personnel?

maiaramdan
No way they will turn it to FWD for 2 reasons

1) it will be nearly same Camry size and that's why they killed the Aurion.

2) the Mark-X is the successor of Brevis / Verossa / Mark-2 / Chaser / Cresta / Cressida which was a Supra 4 doors.

So they will either kill it or make a new RWD generation of it but they will never mess with the name, Toyota never did it before.
Excellent point, that didn't occur to me until I read it. The Camry makes that an impossible proposition, if not dimwitted one at that. Unless XV70 Camry stays FWD, while Mark X TNGA-K AWD where both are sold.

Joaquin Ruhi
I really, really want you to be right on this, but I place more credence in Carmaker1's assertion that the 5GS program is dead. What really bothers me is not so much that 7ES is replacing the GS, but that they went partway towards proving this was possible (launching with an F Sport model and offering it in Ultrasonic Blue) but stopped short by omitting the most critical element: a performance-oriented AWD option to mitigate the very wrongness of FWD-only for a sports sedan worthy of rivaling the Germans, and even Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti.

The Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system that will debut in its platform-mate 5th-gen RAV4 would've been such a natural in the 7ES, but no...


I think that Crown will remain the Toyota brand's flagship, but remain an Asia-only offering. If any Asian markets were to offer both Avalon and Crown, Crown would sit above Avalon.


I totally agree with you there. If Toyota ultimately decides to use a FWD, Avalon-derived model as a replacement for Mark X, better to retire the Mark X badge.
The Avalon was once sold in Japan, during the first generation alongside it. A longer wheelbase GA-K with AWD and "performance focus" : unamused: might be of target.

maiaramdan
I'm not insider, so of course Carmaker1 knows more, my point is by this move they tend to compete with Cadillac , Lincoln, Volvo, Jaguar, Acura & Infiniti instead of competing with Benz, BMW & Audi
They need to push a more european shot of performance and luxury and this will never happen with the ES



About Crown I am thinking
VAG considered premium now and Hyundai and Kia succeed selling RWD sedans , so why Toyota won't return to this market again, the car is already here and with top notch quality, there's a lot of reasons makes me think in this direction
1. Crown: it's one of the eldest nameplates and it will not cost them any excess R&D money.
2. Supra: it's near and with 2 coupes in the lineup they need at least one other sedan to justify the case.
3. LF-1: with trying to make more separation between Lexus & Toyota, the next step that everyone of them cover the different categories by its own way, so for example the next LX will be unibody based on LF-1 and the next Land Cruiser will be continued as BOF Ladder architecture, this can be also appears on the way they are doing the coupes, while both Lexus coupes "LC & RC" are a GT luxurious coupes that can perform well the Toyota coupes "Supra & GT" areade with handling to be a handling and yet performance guru from day one
No, just no. I think I recently said that the LX will NOT go unibody and the LF1 has no bearing on it. They are two different model programs, named 220X and 650B. One on GA-L and the other GA-F. As I typing this, the GX might easily go GA-L unibody come 2022-23 after swan song update for 2020.

There is no need to justify anything regarding the Supra, as costs are already shared with BMW's Z4. Lexus brand is not part of that agreement with BMW, for competitive reasons. Otherwise, a sporting SC coupe would've been of ease. A Toyota-only developed A100 or MK6, is the only time that becomes a thought.

LEONWEST
Lexus will sell ES as family sedan in all markets, but a new GSF is still coming as a more race-focus and sportier F car.
GSF will be a new series itself, with 2.5/3.0/3.5L TTV6 engine provides 400+hp and 4.0/4.4L TTV8 provides 670hp.
That's not a joke. Saw the info on JPN website before. IF you wanna a reliable green sedan, go with ES300H. IF you wanna a sport version of LEXUS sedan in low price, then go with ES250 F sport or ES350 Fsport. IF you wanna a high-per LEXUS sedan, go with the new Gazoo-tuned GSF...Sounds good
You are not entirely wrong, but how recent is this information is the question? As I had similar information last year and held out hope for that very reason. There wouldn't be good business case for such a super niche vehicle, with poor economies of scale as solely an F model. Anything is possible, even if I got it straight from a UK guy that has seen the next IS and CUVs. I am not the only person who has heard otherwise.

ssun30
Exactly. The FWD Mark X rumor makes zero sense.
There are ways around that. Make a fully reskinned Camry XSE/Sportivo, with AWD and some serious tuning to differentiate. Not ideal, but tries to understand their convoluted decision making process.
Carmaker1
meth.ix
Damn it feels like a wasted effort on the GS F if they're only going to have a GS for this generation.

If Lexus makes an ES F, I will be seriously disappointed in Lexus. The ES is the complete opposite of a performance sedan.

GS at least must become a 4-door coupe, in fact, that might be better because it will help customers differentiate it from the ES as a more performance-oriented vehicle over the ES which is oriented towards families.


ssun30
There are a lot of rumors saying it will become FWD and no longer share platform with IS, which is a very confusing business decision.
And...finally someone mentions a tidbit of mine from a year or two ago, where I mentioned that the Mark X was going to go front wheel drive! I read that from both China and Japanese websites. Doesn't seem sensible, but I remember Toyota is trying cut down on JDM offerings.

Gecko
Unfortunately, all of this plus the cancellation of the GS are why Mercedes, BMW and Audi just continue to pull away from Lexus in terms of prestige and cache. Those brands understand that everything doesn't have to be a perfect cut and dry business case with 50% profit margins. Thank god for LC - if we didn't have that car, Lexus would virtually be Acura at this point.
LOL, especially Audi. That is who has been tugging at Lexus for years and will dethrone them, if MSB becomes a thing with A6 and A8. How much of this Toyoda's influence versus that of him being hamstrung by other senior personnel?

maiaramdan
No way they will turn it to FWD for 2 reasons

1) it will be nearly same Camry size and that's why they killed the Aurion.

2) the Mark-X is the successor of Brevis / Verossa / Mark-2 / Chaser / Cresta / Cressida which was a Supra 4 doors.

So they will either kill it or make a new RWD generation of it but they will never mess with the name, Toyota never did it before.
Excellent point, that didn't occur to me until I read it. The Camry makes that an impossible proposition, if not dimwitted one at that. Unless XV70 Camry stays FWD, while Mark X TNGA-K AWD where both are sold.

Joaquin Ruhi
I really, really want you to be right on this, but I place more credence in Carmaker1's assertion that the 5GS program is dead. What really bothers me is not so much that 7ES is replacing the GS, but that they went partway towards proving this was possible (launching with an F Sport model and offering it in Ultrasonic Blue) but stopped short by omitting the most critical element: a performance-oriented AWD option to mitigate the very wrongness of FWD-only for a sports sedan worthy of rivaling the Germans, and even Cadillac, Acura and Infiniti.

The Dynamic Torque Vectoring AWD system that will debut in its platform-mate 5th-gen RAV4 would've been such a natural in the 7ES, but no...


I think that Crown will remain the Toyota brand's flagship, but remain an Asia-only offering. If any Asian markets were to offer both Avalon and Crown, Crown would sit above Avalon.


I totally agree with you there. If Toyota ultimately decides to use a FWD, Avalon-derived model as a replacement for Mark X, better to retire the Mark X badge.
The Avalon was once sold in Japan, during the first generation alongside it. A longer wheelbase GA-K with AWD and "performance focus" : unamused: might be of target.

maiaramdan
I'm not insider, so of course Carmaker1 knows more, my point is by this move they tend to compete with Cadillac , Lincoln, Volvo, Jaguar, Acura & Infiniti instead of competing with Benz, BMW & Audi
They need to push a more european shot of performance and luxury and this will never happen with the ES



About Crown I am thinking
VAG considered premium now and Hyundai and Kia succeed selling RWD sedans , so why Toyota won't return to this market again, the car is already here and with top notch quality, there's a lot of reasons makes me think in this direction
1. Crown: it's one of the eldest nameplates and it will not cost them any excess R&D money.
2. Supra: it's near and with 2 coupes in the lineup they need at least one other sedan to justify the case.
3. LF-1: with trying to make more separation between Lexus & Toyota, the next step that everyone of them cover the different categories by its own way, so for example the next LX will be unibody based on LF-1 and the next Land Cruiser will be continued as BOF Ladder architecture, this can be also appears on the way they are doing the coupes, while both Lexus coupes "LC & RC" are a GT luxurious coupes that can perform well the Toyota coupes "Supra & GT" areade with handling to be a handling and yet performance guru from day one
No, just no. I think I recently said that the LX will NOT go unibody and the LF1 has no bearing on it. They are two different model programs, named 220X and 650B. One on GA-L and the other GA-F. As I typing this, the GX might easily go GA-L unibody come 2022-23 after swan song update for 2020.

There is no need to justify anything regarding the Supra, as costs are already shared with BMW's Z4. Lexus brand is not part of that agreement with BMW, for competitive reasons. Otherwise, a sporting SC coupe would've been of ease. A Toyota-only developed A100 or MK6, is the only time that becomes a thought.

LEONWEST
Lexus will sell ES as family sedan in all markets, but a new GSF is still coming as a more race-focus and sportier F car.
GSF will be a new series itself, with 2.5/3.0/3.5L TTV6 engine provides 400+hp and 4.0/4.4L TTV8 provides 670hp.
That's not a joke. Saw the info on JPN website before. IF you wanna a reliable green sedan, go with ES300H. IF you wanna a sport version of LEXUS sedan in low price, then go with ES250 F sport or ES350 Fsport. IF you wanna a high-per LEXUS sedan, go with the new Gazoo-tuned GSF...Sounds good
You are not entirely wrong, but how recent is this information is the question? As I had similar information last year and held out hope for that very reason. There wouldn't be good business case for such a super niche vehicle, with poor economies of scale as solely an F model. Anything is possible, even if I got it straight from a UK guy that has seen the next IS and CUVs. I am not the only person who has heard otherwise.

ssun30
Exactly. The FWD Mark X rumor makes zero sense.
There are ways around that. Make a fully reskinned Camry XSE/Sportivo, with AWD and some serious tuning to differentiate. Not ideal, but tries to understand their convoluted decision making process.
L
Carmaker1



And...finally someone mentions a tidbit of mine from a year or two ago, where I mentioned that the Mark X was going to go front wheel drive! I read that from both China and Japanese websites. Doesn't seem sensible, but I remember Toyota is trying cut down on JDM offerings.



LOL, especially Audi. That is who has been tugging at Lexus for years and will dethrone them, if MSB becomes a thing with A6 and A8. How much of this Toyoda's influence versus that of him being hamstrung by other senior personnel?



Excellent point, that didn't occur to me until I read it. The Camry makes that an impossible proposition, if not dimwitted one at that. Unless XV70 Camry stays FWD, while Mark X TNGA-K AWD where both are sold.



The Avalon was once sold in Japan, during the first generation alongside it. A longer wheelbase GA-K with AWD and "performance focus" : unamused: might be of target.



No, just no. I think I recently said that the LX will NOT go unibody and the LF1 has no bearing on it. They are two different model programs, named 220X and 650B. One on GA-L and the other GA-F. As I typing this, the GX might easily go GA-L unibody come 2022-23 after swan song update for 2020.

There is no need to justify anything regarding the Supra, as costs are already shared with BMW's Z4. Lexus brand is not part of that agreement with BMW, for competitive reasons. Otherwise, a sporting SC coupe would've been of ease. A Toyota-only developed A100 or MK6, is the only time that becomes a thought.



You are not entirely wrong, but how recent is this information is the question? As I had similar information last year and held out hope for that very reason. There wouldn't be good business case for such a super niche vehicle, with poor economies of scale as solely an F model. Anything is possible, even if I got it straight from a UK guy that has seen the next IS and CUVs. I am not the only person who has heard otherwise.



There are ways around that. Make a fully reskinned Camry XSE/Sportivo, with AWD and some serious tuning to differentiate. Not ideal, but tries to understand their convoluted decision making process.
The seventh-gen ES is still Fwd, which makes me feel sad about the cancellation of GS. AUDI has Quattro and SUBARU has DCCD, etc. They sold AWD sport cars based on fwd well, which TOYOTA hasn't. So i think its' weird that LEXUS only has ES sedan between IS and LS. I got information from the guy who works for Toyota, and he said there's no AWD plan on both Avalon nor ES. When LEXUS said they will stop selling GS in Europe, the guy said stop selling in EU doesn't mean there's no GS anymore. But he's never make it clear about the future of GS. So only the time will tell.

L