Lexus GS Sedan Not Going Anywhere, Will Continue Sales in North America

Gecko

Not sure we will ever really know for sure, but Toyota also has the RWD Crown and previously had Celsior and others, so I'm sure there is/was a holistic focus on multiple RWD applications across both brands.

I am sure said economies of scale play into this, but since Lexus sells better than Crown and worldwide, it is common sense that Lexus is priority.
Same as with Avalon vs ES - it is referred to as Avalon platform to make Lexus ES seem less important, but in reality, Lexus ES sells at least 3x more than Avalon, maybe 4x these days with China. Pretty obvious that Lexus ES would be priority when designing it and then it trickles down to Avalon.

Just like old RX platform came from base Toyota and could never do what they wanted them to do, sure you can say it was a holistic approach but in the end when you build 2-3 million Toyota's off similar platform and $200k-$3000 Lexi, then it is obvious where the focus is and why RX was never as good drive as they wanted it to be.

Or with new biturbo V6 and V8 engines, they are obviously made for Lexus, since Toyota sells very few of these. Even 2.0t is not going into many Toyota vehicles, while it is spread into Lexus deeply.

Thankfully new TNGA is good platform and vehicles with it ride really good... it is going to be a boon for all of their vehicles, including ES and future RX.

Gecko

Not sure we will ever really know for sure, but Toyota also has the RWD Crown and previously had Celsior and others, so I'm sure there is/was a holistic focus on multiple RWD applications across both brands.

I am sure said economies of scale play into this, but since Lexus sells better than Crown and worldwide, it is common sense that Lexus is priority.
Same as with Avalon vs ES - it is referred to as Avalon platform to make Lexus ES seem less important, but in reality, Lexus ES sells at least 3x more than Avalon, maybe 4x these days with China. Pretty obvious that Lexus ES would be priority when designing it and then it trickles down to Avalon.

Just like old RX platform came from base Toyota and could never do what they wanted them to do, sure you can say it was a holistic approach but in the end when you build 2-3 million Toyota's off similar platform and $200k-$3000 Lexi, then it is obvious where the focus is and why RX was never as good drive as they wanted it to be.

Or with new biturbo V6 and V8 engines, they are obviously made for Lexus, since Toyota sells very few of these. Even 2.0t is not going into many Toyota vehicles, while it is spread into Lexus deeply.

Thankfully new TNGA is good platform and vehicles with it ride really good... it is going to be a boon for all of their vehicles, including ES and future RX.

Another issue is the LS now drives like a GS. So the GS has really be squeezed here by the ES and LS. The LS is now sportier looking than the GS. True it starts 30k more but the ES will surely look like a smaller LS.

The GS truly would need to become something different and maybe a 4 door coupe SUV is the way to go.

Another issue is the LS now drives like a GS. So the GS has really be squeezed here by the ES and LS. The LS is now sportier looking than the GS. True it starts 30k more but the ES will surely look like a smaller LS.

The GS truly would need to become something different and maybe a 4 door coupe SUV is the way to go.

Another issue is the LS now drives like a GS. So the GS has really be squeezed here by the ES and LS. The LS is now sportier looking than the GS. True it starts 30k more but the ES will surely look like a smaller LS.

The GS truly would need to become something different and maybe a 4 door coupe SUV is the way to go.

Gecko

If Lexus can does the following for ES, I will say that I think the retirement of the GS makes sense.

- Base engine: All-new Dynamic Force 2.0T I4 with ~265hp/280lb-ft of torque "ES 300/RX 300" with 8AT
- Optional engine: All-new Dynamic Force 3.0L turbocharged V6 with ~340hp/360lb-ft of torque "ES 400/RX 400" with 10 AT
- Hybrid option for ES: Li-ion Hybrid system from the new Camry LE "ES 300h"
- Hybrid option for RX: Multi-stage hybrid system with new Dynamic Force V6, ~320hp
- Standard front-wheel drive
- Optional active AWD system with torque split that can flex from 50/50 to 30/70 front to rear (Standard on F-Sport V6)

For one, the next RX almost has to have these types of upgrades to be competitive. Two, so does the next generation Lexus midsize sedan, no matter if you call that an ES or a GS.

If you can buy either:

- an ES 400 F Sport with 340hp, 360lb-ft of torque, 10AT, the F Sport package, active all wheel drive, red leather interior option, etc
or
- an ES 300/400 with luxury package including pleated leather, woodgrain, 12" screen, upgraded wheels, Mark Levinson, Lexus Safety Sense +, Panoramic roof, etc

... nobody is going to even care about the GS. And Lexus knows that. The genius in this plan is that they can also sell a $40k FWD ES 300 with base equipment all the way up to a $65k ES 400 F Sport AWD - totally expanding one product line while saving costs on another. It's all about the Benjamins, baby.

Is the 550i M Sport or E43 AMG owner going to be shopping for this car? No, but are they right now? No.

The only qualm I have with this plan is that I think this car should be named "GS" for many reasons - not the least of which is that the GS is already a global product and the ES is not, and the GS is seen as more premium.

Now, if there is no active AWD option for this new ES and Lexus tries to stuff a torquey turbo V6 (or the 2GR-FKS) into an ES FWD or with DTC AWD, they have failed. Period.

(IS-SV, I went off on a tangent here... not directed at you o_O )

While I generally do agree with you, I doubt many people care about how awesome AWD system is - reality is that in those areas where you need AWD, groud clearance is also must and their current FWD system in RX is fine... it is not the best, but I very much doubt that their customers care about if it can go up some engineered slope with one wheel on the ice and other in the air. GS does not get many sales due to its all time AWD system. Sure, they can build better one, afterall they own Torsen, but will the real customers care enough to pay $1k more? Thats the question.

As to the picking up the details like lion vs nimh, or having 5hp more or less, i doubt it matters either.

Main thing here in the end would be that new TNGA is simply a lot better platform than what they had before, and that new suspensions are really good, with good balance of handling vs comfort, something that they never had before. Combine it with good hybrid from Camry, and it would a shame if new ES did not come worldwide.

When it comes to the interior, looking at Avalon, I have no doubts that ES will have its best interior ever and that options will be plentiful.

Audi A6 is very popular around here in Europe, it is most sold fleet/executive sedan and with changing CO2 targets now most sold is 2.0 diesel with FWD. ES with its good hybrid system and finally a good suspension for Europe can compete a lot better than GS ever could... but the question is if Lexus will still find it worthwhile, since in the end, volumes will be low.. but how low? Certainly a lot better than GS that sells peanuts.

Gecko

If Lexus can does the following for ES, I will say that I think the retirement of the GS makes sense.

- Base engine: All-new Dynamic Force 2.0T I4 with ~265hp/280lb-ft of torque "ES 300/RX 300" with 8AT
- Optional engine: All-new Dynamic Force 3.0L turbocharged V6 with ~340hp/360lb-ft of torque "ES 400/RX 400" with 10 AT
- Hybrid option for ES: Li-ion Hybrid system from the new Camry LE "ES 300h"
- Hybrid option for RX: Multi-stage hybrid system with new Dynamic Force V6, ~320hp
- Standard front-wheel drive
- Optional active AWD system with torque split that can flex from 50/50 to 30/70 front to rear (Standard on F-Sport V6)

For one, the next RX almost has to have these types of upgrades to be competitive. Two, so does the next generation Lexus midsize sedan, no matter if you call that an ES or a GS.

If you can buy either:

- an ES 400 F Sport with 340hp, 360lb-ft of torque, 10AT, the F Sport package, active all wheel drive, red leather interior option, etc
or
- an ES 300/400 with luxury package including pleated leather, woodgrain, 12" screen, upgraded wheels, Mark Levinson, Lexus Safety Sense +, Panoramic roof, etc

... nobody is going to even care about the GS. And Lexus knows that. The genius in this plan is that they can also sell a $40k FWD ES 300 with base equipment all the way up to a $65k ES 400 F Sport AWD - totally expanding one product line while saving costs on another. It's all about the Benjamins, baby.

Is the 550i M Sport or E43 AMG owner going to be shopping for this car? No, but are they right now? No.

The only qualm I have with this plan is that I think this car should be named "GS" for many reasons - not the least of which is that the GS is already a global product and the ES is not, and the GS is seen as more premium.

Now, if there is no active AWD option for this new ES and Lexus tries to stuff a torquey turbo V6 (or the 2GR-FKS) into an ES FWD or with DTC AWD, they have failed. Period.

(IS-SV, I went off on a tangent here... not directed at you o_O )

While I generally do agree with you, I doubt many people care about how awesome AWD system is - reality is that in those areas where you need AWD, groud clearance is also must and their current FWD system in RX is fine... it is not the best, but I very much doubt that their customers care about if it can go up some engineered slope with one wheel on the ice and other in the air. GS does not get many sales due to its all time AWD system. Sure, they can build better one, afterall they own Torsen, but will the real customers care enough to pay $1k more? Thats the question.

As to the picking up the details like lion vs nimh, or having 5hp more or less, i doubt it matters either.

Main thing here in the end would be that new TNGA is simply a lot better platform than what they had before, and that new suspensions are really good, with good balance of handling vs comfort, something that they never had before. Combine it with good hybrid from Camry, and it would a shame if new ES did not come worldwide.

When it comes to the interior, looking at Avalon, I have no doubts that ES will have its best interior ever and that options will be plentiful.

Audi A6 is very popular around here in Europe, it is most sold fleet/executive sedan and with changing CO2 targets now most sold is 2.0 diesel with FWD. ES with its good hybrid system and finally a good suspension for Europe can compete a lot better than GS ever could... but the question is if Lexus will still find it worthwhile, since in the end, volumes will be low.. but how low? Certainly a lot better than GS that sells peanuts.

Gecko

If Lexus can does the following for ES, I will say that I think the retirement of the GS makes sense.

- Base engine: All-new Dynamic Force 2.0T I4 with ~265hp/280lb-ft of torque "ES 300/RX 300" with 8AT
- Optional engine: All-new Dynamic Force 3.0L turbocharged V6 with ~340hp/360lb-ft of torque "ES 400/RX 400" with 10 AT
- Hybrid option for ES: Li-ion Hybrid system from the new Camry LE "ES 300h"
- Hybrid option for RX: Multi-stage hybrid system with new Dynamic Force V6, ~320hp
- Standard front-wheel drive
- Optional active AWD system with torque split that can flex from 50/50 to 30/70 front to rear (Standard on F-Sport V6)

For one, the next RX almost has to have these types of upgrades to be competitive. Two, so does the next generation Lexus midsize sedan, no matter if you call that an ES or a GS.

If you can buy either:

- an ES 400 F Sport with 340hp, 360lb-ft of torque, 10AT, the F Sport package, active all wheel drive, red leather interior option, etc
or
- an ES 300/400 with luxury package including pleated leather, woodgrain, 12" screen, upgraded wheels, Mark Levinson, Lexus Safety Sense +, Panoramic roof, etc

... nobody is going to even care about the GS. And Lexus knows that. The genius in this plan is that they can also sell a $40k FWD ES 300 with base equipment all the way up to a $65k ES 400 F Sport AWD - totally expanding one product line while saving costs on another. It's all about the Benjamins, baby.

Is the 550i M Sport or E43 AMG owner going to be shopping for this car? No, but are they right now? No.

The only qualm I have with this plan is that I think this car should be named "GS" for many reasons - not the least of which is that the GS is already a global product and the ES is not, and the GS is seen as more premium.

Now, if there is no active AWD option for this new ES and Lexus tries to stuff a torquey turbo V6 (or the 2GR-FKS) into an ES FWD or with DTC AWD, they have failed. Period.

(IS-SV, I went off on a tangent here... not directed at you o_O )

While I generally do agree with you, I doubt many people care about how awesome AWD system is - reality is that in those areas where you need AWD, groud clearance is also must and their current FWD system in RX is fine... it is not the best, but I very much doubt that their customers care about if it can go up some engineered slope with one wheel on the ice and other in the air. GS does not get many sales due to its all time AWD system. Sure, they can build better one, afterall they own Torsen, but will the real customers care enough to pay $1k more? Thats the question.

As to the picking up the details like lion vs nimh, or having 5hp more or less, i doubt it matters either.

Main thing here in the end would be that new TNGA is simply a lot better platform than what they had before, and that new suspensions are really good, with good balance of handling vs comfort, something that they never had before. Combine it with good hybrid from Camry, and it would a shame if new ES did not come worldwide.

When it comes to the interior, looking at Avalon, I have no doubts that ES will have its best interior ever and that options will be plentiful.

Audi A6 is very popular around here in Europe, it is most sold fleet/executive sedan and with changing CO2 targets now most sold is 2.0 diesel with FWD. ES with its good hybrid system and finally a good suspension for Europe can compete a lot better than GS ever could... but the question is if Lexus will still find it worthwhile, since in the end, volumes will be low.. but how low? Certainly a lot better than GS that sells peanuts.

spwolf

While I generally do agree with you, I doubt many people care about how awesome AWD system is - reality is that in those areas where you need AWD, groud clearance is also must and their current FWD system in RX is fine... it is not the best, but I very much doubt that their customers care about if it can go up some engineered slope with one wheel on the ice and other in the air. GS does not get many sales due to its all time AWD system. Sure, they can build better one, afterall they own Torsen, but will the real customers care enough to pay $1k more? Thats the question.

As to the picking up the details like lion vs nimh, or having 5hp more or less, i doubt it matters either.

Main thing here in the end would be that new TNGA is simply a lot better platform than what they had before, and that new suspensions are really good, with good balance of handling vs comfort, something that they never had before. Combine it with good hybrid from Camry, and it would a shame if new ES did not come worldwide.

When it comes to the interior, looking at Avalon, I have no doubts that ES will have its best interior ever and that options will be plentiful.

Audi A6 is very popular around here in Europe, it is most sold fleet/executive sedan and with changing CO2 targets now most sold is 2.0 diesel with FWD. ES with its good hybrid system and finally a good suspension for Europe can compete a lot better than GS ever could... but the question is if Lexus will still find it worthwhile, since in the end, volumes will be low.. but how low? Certainly a lot better than GS that sells peanuts.

I agree with much of what you are saying but have two concerns:

If Lexus plans to keep some disenfranchised GS owners, they need to have a variant of the ES that is higher performing than it was before. That is where the AWD part comes into play (in a FWD car) - less so for traction and bad weather. Driving an ES 350 hard is no fun - front is twitchy and fidgety, torque steer is bad. An active AWD system would allow Lexus to create a higher performance version that could hopefully keep some GS shoppers.

V6 Camry is the most powerful TNGA vehicle we have so far, and the reviews were not very good with regard to driving dynamics. Many commented that the V6 overwhelmed the chassis, even on the XSE V6, and there was a general preference for the 4 cylinder because it was better balanced. I am sure there will be changes for the ES, but at first glance, these impressions do not bode well for a car that is going to do battle with the A6 and E Class.

spwolf

While I generally do agree with you, I doubt many people care about how awesome AWD system is - reality is that in those areas where you need AWD, groud clearance is also must and their current FWD system in RX is fine... it is not the best, but I very much doubt that their customers care about if it can go up some engineered slope with one wheel on the ice and other in the air. GS does not get many sales due to its all time AWD system. Sure, they can build better one, afterall they own Torsen, but will the real customers care enough to pay $1k more? Thats the question.

As to the picking up the details like lion vs nimh, or having 5hp more or less, i doubt it matters either.

Main thing here in the end would be that new TNGA is simply a lot better platform than what they had before, and that new suspensions are really good, with good balance of handling vs comfort, something that they never had before. Combine it with good hybrid from Camry, and it would a shame if new ES did not come worldwide.

When it comes to the interior, looking at Avalon, I have no doubts that ES will have its best interior ever and that options will be plentiful.

Audi A6 is very popular around here in Europe, it is most sold fleet/executive sedan and with changing CO2 targets now most sold is 2.0 diesel with FWD. ES with its good hybrid system and finally a good suspension for Europe can compete a lot better than GS ever could... but the question is if Lexus will still find it worthwhile, since in the end, volumes will be low.. but how low? Certainly a lot better than GS that sells peanuts.

I agree with much of what you are saying but have two concerns:

If Lexus plans to keep some disenfranchised GS owners, they need to have a variant of the ES that is higher performing than it was before. That is where the AWD part comes into play (in a FWD car) - less so for traction and bad weather. Driving an ES 350 hard is no fun - front is twitchy and fidgety, torque steer is bad. An active AWD system would allow Lexus to create a higher performance version that could hopefully keep some GS shoppers.

V6 Camry is the most powerful TNGA vehicle we have so far, and the reviews were not very good with regard to driving dynamics. Many commented that the V6 overwhelmed the chassis, even on the XSE V6, and there was a general preference for the 4 cylinder because it was better balanced. I am sure there will be changes for the ES, but at first glance, these impressions do not bode well for a car that is going to do battle with the A6 and E Class.

spwolf

While I generally do agree with you, I doubt many people care about how awesome AWD system is - reality is that in those areas where you need AWD, groud clearance is also must and their current FWD system in RX is fine... it is not the best, but I very much doubt that their customers care about if it can go up some engineered slope with one wheel on the ice and other in the air. GS does not get many sales due to its all time AWD system. Sure, they can build better one, afterall they own Torsen, but will the real customers care enough to pay $1k more? Thats the question.

As to the picking up the details like lion vs nimh, or having 5hp more or less, i doubt it matters either.

Main thing here in the end would be that new TNGA is simply a lot better platform than what they had before, and that new suspensions are really good, with good balance of handling vs comfort, something that they never had before. Combine it with good hybrid from Camry, and it would a shame if new ES did not come worldwide.

When it comes to the interior, looking at Avalon, I have no doubts that ES will have its best interior ever and that options will be plentiful.

Audi A6 is very popular around here in Europe, it is most sold fleet/executive sedan and with changing CO2 targets now most sold is 2.0 diesel with FWD. ES with its good hybrid system and finally a good suspension for Europe can compete a lot better than GS ever could... but the question is if Lexus will still find it worthwhile, since in the end, volumes will be low.. but how low? Certainly a lot better than GS that sells peanuts.

I agree with much of what you are saying but have two concerns:

If Lexus plans to keep some disenfranchised GS owners, they need to have a variant of the ES that is higher performing than it was before. That is where the AWD part comes into play (in a FWD car) - less so for traction and bad weather. Driving an ES 350 hard is no fun - front is twitchy and fidgety, torque steer is bad. An active AWD system would allow Lexus to create a higher performance version that could hopefully keep some GS shoppers.

V6 Camry is the most powerful TNGA vehicle we have so far, and the reviews were not very good with regard to driving dynamics. Many commented that the V6 overwhelmed the chassis, even on the XSE V6, and there was a general preference for the 4 cylinder because it was better balanced. I am sure there will be changes for the ES, but at first glance, these impressions do not bode well for a car that is going to do battle with the A6 and E Class.

Gecko

V6 Camry is the most powerful TNGA vehicle we have so far, and the reviews were not very good with regard to driving dynamics. Many commented that the V6 overwhelmed the chassis, even on the XSE V6, and there was a general preference for the 4 cylinder because it was better balanced. I am sure there will be changes for the ES, but at first glance, these impressions do not bode well for a car that is going to do battle with the A6 and E Class.

Pardon me Gecko, isn't the LC and LS more powerful? I believe you meant it is the most powerful TNGA-F car. Your point still stands though. Just something I noticed. :)

Gecko

V6 Camry is the most powerful TNGA vehicle we have so far, and the reviews were not very good with regard to driving dynamics. Many commented that the V6 overwhelmed the chassis, even on the XSE V6, and there was a general preference for the 4 cylinder because it was better balanced. I am sure there will be changes for the ES, but at first glance, these impressions do not bode well for a car that is going to do battle with the A6 and E Class.

Pardon me Gecko, isn't the LC and LS more powerful? I believe you meant it is the most powerful TNGA-F car. Your point still stands though. Just something I noticed. :)

Gecko

V6 Camry is the most powerful TNGA vehicle we have so far, and the reviews were not very good with regard to driving dynamics. Many commented that the V6 overwhelmed the chassis, even on the XSE V6, and there was a general preference for the 4 cylinder because it was better balanced. I am sure there will be changes for the ES, but at first glance, these impressions do not bode well for a car that is going to do battle with the A6 and E Class.

Pardon me Gecko, isn't the LC and LS more powerful? I believe you meant it is the most powerful TNGA-F car. Your point still stands though. Just something I noticed. :)

Levi

It is not that Toyota did not expect the downsizing revolution, it is that Toyota does not believe the downsizing revolution lie. But now they have no choice, the market forces them.

False. Downsizing is not a lie. It has been proven to have positive effect on fuel consumption compared to NA engines, period. But along with downsizing, we had this horsepower war nonsense that forced a lot of downsized turbocharged engines to be rated out of their optimal operation zone. As a result, most cars with downsized motors didn't deliver the promised mileage gains, just because they are universally overpowered.

Downsizing has always been part of TMC's plan. In fact a turbocharged engine was supposed to be equipped by the 5th gen Prius. But the engineers could not meet the efficiency targets within the time they were given. Thus the decision went to using the optimized 1ZR-FXE since it could achieve their MPG goals anyway. The reason TMC did not rush downsizing is that a) they set the goals too high b) they have too many alternative solutions to play with already c) they were not interested in the horsepower war.

The only 'dirty' part of the downsizing revolution is the Germans using their political influence to make nations adopt cycles that give unfair advantage to downsized motors, and using their media connections to convince people they need excessive amount of power.

A comment from a TMEC (Toyota Motor Engineering & Research Center) engineer: our biggest headache is that we have too much technology to play with, it's a nice problem to have, but our competitors just choose to play dirty. Yes, he was referring to VAG.

Levi

It is not that Toyota did not expect the downsizing revolution, it is that Toyota does not believe the downsizing revolution lie. But now they have no choice, the market forces them.

False. Downsizing is not a lie. It has been proven to have positive effect on fuel consumption compared to NA engines, period. But along with downsizing, we had this horsepower war nonsense that forced a lot of downsized turbocharged engines to be rated out of their optimal operation zone. As a result, most cars with downsized motors didn't deliver the promised mileage gains, just because they are universally overpowered.

Downsizing has always been part of TMC's plan. In fact a turbocharged engine was supposed to be equipped by the 5th gen Prius. But the engineers could not meet the efficiency targets within the time they were given. Thus the decision went to using the optimized 1ZR-FXE since it could achieve their MPG goals anyway. The reason TMC did not rush downsizing is that a) they set the goals too high b) they have too many alternative solutions to play with already c) they were not interested in the horsepower war.

The only 'dirty' part of the downsizing revolution is the Germans using their political influence to make nations adopt cycles that give unfair advantage to downsized motors, and using their media connections to convince people they need excessive amount of power.

A comment from a TMEC (Toyota Motor Engineering & Research Center) engineer: our biggest headache is that we have too much technology to play with, it's a nice problem to have, but our competitors just choose to play dirty. Yes, he was referring to VAG.

Levi

It is not that Toyota did not expect the downsizing revolution, it is that Toyota does not believe the downsizing revolution lie. But now they have no choice, the market forces them.

False. Downsizing is not a lie. It has been proven to have positive effect on fuel consumption compared to NA engines, period. But along with downsizing, we had this horsepower war nonsense that forced a lot of downsized turbocharged engines to be rated out of their optimal operation zone. As a result, most cars with downsized motors didn't deliver the promised mileage gains, just because they are universally overpowered.

Downsizing has always been part of TMC's plan. In fact a turbocharged engine was supposed to be equipped by the 5th gen Prius. But the engineers could not meet the efficiency targets within the time they were given. Thus the decision went to using the optimized 1ZR-FXE since it could achieve their MPG goals anyway. The reason TMC did not rush downsizing is that a) they set the goals too high b) they have too many alternative solutions to play with already c) they were not interested in the horsepower war.

The only 'dirty' part of the downsizing revolution is the Germans using their political influence to make nations adopt cycles that give unfair advantage to downsized motors, and using their media connections to convince people they need excessive amount of power.

A comment from a TMEC (Toyota Motor Engineering & Research Center) engineer: our biggest headache is that we have too much technology to play with, it's a nice problem to have, but our competitors just choose to play dirty. Yes, he was referring to VAG.

Gecko

I agree with much of what you are saying but have two concerns:

If Lexus plans to keep some disenfranchised GS owners, they need to have a variant of the ES that is higher performing than it was before. That is where the AWD part comes into play (in a FWD car) - less so for traction and bad weather. Driving an ES 350 hard is no fun - front is twitchy and fidgety, torque steer is bad. An active AWD system would allow Lexus to create a higher performance version that could hopefully keep some GS shoppers.

V6 Camry is the most powerful TNGA vehicle we have so far, and the reviews were not very good with regard to driving dynamics. Many commented that the V6 overwhelmed the chassis, even on the XSE V6, and there was a general preference for the 4 cylinder because it was better balanced. I am sure there will be changes for the ES, but at first glance, these impressions do not bode well for a car that is going to do battle with the A6 and E Class.

Nice post

Every GS owner I've talked to a bit only wants a GS, not an ES. That is kind of the point of the GS, it is the anti-ES.... Surely for sales reasons making the ES more grand makes sense but for enthusiasts they will lose GS owners to another brand if the GS goes away. Just the name alone "GS" is cool.

The ES has alawys be a logical car, the GS has always been the opposite.
1st gen- beautiful looks, pricey, no V-8 option, did I mention beautiful. The only non two tone Lexus sedan. Hardly any competition.
2nd gen- "something wicked this way comes" need we say more? By far the biggest GS success.
3rd gen- Coupe like looks, launched with old engines. Hybrid never caught on. Sales floundred. Oh Competition grew thick
4th gen- Debuts Spindle grill, Arguably best driving in class, more variants then ever, more luxury and tech then ever, sales never took off. Competition thicker than its ever been.

With the LS growing in size and being LWB only they could make the GS quite a bit bigger, more coupe like in design and truly present it as the anti- SUV, anti sedan kind of car. Hell make it a hatchback ala the A7....make it DIFFERENT. Another Lexus sedan with another trunk no longer makes sense.

Mind you we all know the next IS will get bigger, with more luxury etc...

Disclaimer- the GS to me is a big reason for where I am today so I am going to be very passionate about this car.

Gecko

I agree with much of what you are saying but have two concerns:

If Lexus plans to keep some disenfranchised GS owners, they need to have a variant of the ES that is higher performing than it was before. That is where the AWD part comes into play (in a FWD car) - less so for traction and bad weather. Driving an ES 350 hard is no fun - front is twitchy and fidgety, torque steer is bad. An active AWD system would allow Lexus to create a higher performance version that could hopefully keep some GS shoppers.

V6 Camry is the most powerful TNGA vehicle we have so far, and the reviews were not very good with regard to driving dynamics. Many commented that the V6 overwhelmed the chassis, even on the XSE V6, and there was a general preference for the 4 cylinder because it was better balanced. I am sure there will be changes for the ES, but at first glance, these impressions do not bode well for a car that is going to do battle with the A6 and E Class.

Nice post

Every GS owner I've talked to a bit only wants a GS, not an ES. That is kind of the point of the GS, it is the anti-ES.... Surely for sales reasons making the ES more grand makes sense but for enthusiasts they will lose GS owners to another brand if the GS goes away. Just the name alone "GS" is cool.

The ES has alawys be a logical car, the GS has always been the opposite.
1st gen- beautiful looks, pricey, no V-8 option, did I mention beautiful. The only non two tone Lexus sedan. Hardly any competition.
2nd gen- "something wicked this way comes" need we say more? By far the biggest GS success.
3rd gen- Coupe like looks, launched with old engines. Hybrid never caught on. Sales floundred. Oh Competition grew thick
4th gen- Debuts Spindle grill, Arguably best driving in class, more variants then ever, more luxury and tech then ever, sales never took off. Competition thicker than its ever been.

With the LS growing in size and being LWB only they could make the GS quite a bit bigger, more coupe like in design and truly present it as the anti- SUV, anti sedan kind of car. Hell make it a hatchback ala the A7....make it DIFFERENT. Another Lexus sedan with another trunk no longer makes sense.

Mind you we all know the next IS will get bigger, with more luxury etc...

Disclaimer- the GS to me is a big reason for where I am today so I am going to be very passionate about this car.

Gecko

I agree with much of what you are saying but have two concerns:

If Lexus plans to keep some disenfranchised GS owners, they need to have a variant of the ES that is higher performing than it was before. That is where the AWD part comes into play (in a FWD car) - less so for traction and bad weather. Driving an ES 350 hard is no fun - front is twitchy and fidgety, torque steer is bad. An active AWD system would allow Lexus to create a higher performance version that could hopefully keep some GS shoppers.

V6 Camry is the most powerful TNGA vehicle we have so far, and the reviews were not very good with regard to driving dynamics. Many commented that the V6 overwhelmed the chassis, even on the XSE V6, and there was a general preference for the 4 cylinder because it was better balanced. I am sure there will be changes for the ES, but at first glance, these impressions do not bode well for a car that is going to do battle with the A6 and E Class.

Nice post

Every GS owner I've talked to a bit only wants a GS, not an ES. That is kind of the point of the GS, it is the anti-ES.... Surely for sales reasons making the ES more grand makes sense but for enthusiasts they will lose GS owners to another brand if the GS goes away. Just the name alone "GS" is cool.

The ES has alawys be a logical car, the GS has always been the opposite.
1st gen- beautiful looks, pricey, no V-8 option, did I mention beautiful. The only non two tone Lexus sedan. Hardly any competition.
2nd gen- "something wicked this way comes" need we say more? By far the biggest GS success.
3rd gen- Coupe like looks, launched with old engines. Hybrid never caught on. Sales floundred. Oh Competition grew thick
4th gen- Debuts Spindle grill, Arguably best driving in class, more variants then ever, more luxury and tech then ever, sales never took off. Competition thicker than its ever been.

With the LS growing in size and being LWB only they could make the GS quite a bit bigger, more coupe like in design and truly present it as the anti- SUV, anti sedan kind of car. Hell make it a hatchback ala the A7....make it DIFFERENT. Another Lexus sedan with another trunk no longer makes sense.

Mind you we all know the next IS will get bigger, with more luxury etc...

Disclaimer- the GS to me is a big reason for where I am today so I am going to be very passionate about this car.

mikeavelli

Nice post

Every GS owner I've talked to a bit only wants a GS, not an ES. That is kind of the point of the GS, it is the anti-ES.... Surely for sales reasons making the ES more grand makes sense but for enthusiasts they will lose GS owners to another brand if the GS goes away. Just the name alone "GS" is cool.

The ES has alawys be a logical car, the GS has always been the opposite.
1st gen- beautiful looks, pricey, no V-8 option, did I mention beautiful. The only non two tone Lexus sedan. Hardly any competition.
2nd gen- "something wicked this way comes" need we say more? By far the biggest GS success.
3rd gen- Coupe like looks, launched with old engines. Hybrid never caught on. Sales floundred. Oh Competition grew thick
4th gen- Debuts Spindle grill, Arguably best driving in class, more variants then ever, more luxury and tech then ever, sales never took off. Competition thicker than its ever been.

With the LS growing in size and being LWB only they could make the GS quite a bit bigger, more coupe like in design and truly present it as the anti- SUV, anti sedan kind of car. Hell make it a hatchback ala the A7....make it DIFFERENT. Another Lexus sedan with another trunk no longer makes sense.

Mind you we all know the next IS will get bigger, with more luxury etc...

Disclaimer- the GS to me is a big reason for where I am today so I am going to be very passionate about this car.

As a proud GS owner I agree. I test drove the ES and as someone in my 20s there was no way I was going to get that. I can’t afford the LS and the IS is small. I’m an extremely loyal Lexus fan but without the GS I don’t know what I would have gotten. I guess I’ll need to earn more for an LS next time or hope the IS does fill that gap better.

mikeavelli

Nice post

Every GS owner I've talked to a bit only wants a GS, not an ES. That is kind of the point of the GS, it is the anti-ES.... Surely for sales reasons making the ES more grand makes sense but for enthusiasts they will lose GS owners to another brand if the GS goes away. Just the name alone "GS" is cool.

The ES has alawys be a logical car, the GS has always been the opposite.
1st gen- beautiful looks, pricey, no V-8 option, did I mention beautiful. The only non two tone Lexus sedan. Hardly any competition.
2nd gen- "something wicked this way comes" need we say more? By far the biggest GS success.
3rd gen- Coupe like looks, launched with old engines. Hybrid never caught on. Sales floundred. Oh Competition grew thick
4th gen- Debuts Spindle grill, Arguably best driving in class, more variants then ever, more luxury and tech then ever, sales never took off. Competition thicker than its ever been.

With the LS growing in size and being LWB only they could make the GS quite a bit bigger, more coupe like in design and truly present it as the anti- SUV, anti sedan kind of car. Hell make it a hatchback ala the A7....make it DIFFERENT. Another Lexus sedan with another trunk no longer makes sense.

Mind you we all know the next IS will get bigger, with more luxury etc...

Disclaimer- the GS to me is a big reason for where I am today so I am going to be very passionate about this car.

As a proud GS owner I agree. I test drove the ES and as someone in my 20s there was no way I was going to get that. I can’t afford the LS and the IS is small. I’m an extremely loyal Lexus fan but without the GS I don’t know what I would have gotten. I guess I’ll need to earn more for an LS next time or hope the IS does fill that gap better.

mikeavelli

Nice post

Every GS owner I've talked to a bit only wants a GS, not an ES. That is kind of the point of the GS, it is the anti-ES.... Surely for sales reasons making the ES more grand makes sense but for enthusiasts they will lose GS owners to another brand if the GS goes away. Just the name alone "GS" is cool.

The ES has alawys be a logical car, the GS has always been the opposite.
1st gen- beautiful looks, pricey, no V-8 option, did I mention beautiful. The only non two tone Lexus sedan. Hardly any competition.
2nd gen- "something wicked this way comes" need we say more? By far the biggest GS success.
3rd gen- Coupe like looks, launched with old engines. Hybrid never caught on. Sales floundred. Oh Competition grew thick
4th gen- Debuts Spindle grill, Arguably best driving in class, more variants then ever, more luxury and tech then ever, sales never took off. Competition thicker than its ever been.

With the LS growing in size and being LWB only they could make the GS quite a bit bigger, more coupe like in design and truly present it as the anti- SUV, anti sedan kind of car. Hell make it a hatchback ala the A7....make it DIFFERENT. Another Lexus sedan with another trunk no longer makes sense.

Mind you we all know the next IS will get bigger, with more luxury etc...

Disclaimer- the GS to me is a big reason for where I am today so I am going to be very passionate about this car.

As a proud GS owner I agree. I test drove the ES and as someone in my 20s there was no way I was going to get that. I can’t afford the LS and the IS is small. I’m an extremely loyal Lexus fan but without the GS I don’t know what I would have gotten. I guess I’ll need to earn more for an LS next time or hope the IS does fill that gap better.

James

As a proud GS owner I agree. I test drove the ES and as someone in my 20s there was no way I was going to get that. I can’t afford the LS and the IS is small. I’m an extremely loyal Lexus fan but without the GS I don’t know what I would have gotten. I guess I’ll need to earn more for an LS next time or hope the IS does fill that gap better.

Majority of the people who want a sporty sedan and get turned down by the size of the IS buy the 3-series instead. Solution to the problem? Make the IS bigger.

James

As a proud GS owner I agree. I test drove the ES and as someone in my 20s there was no way I was going to get that. I can’t afford the LS and the IS is small. I’m an extremely loyal Lexus fan but without the GS I don’t know what I would have gotten. I guess I’ll need to earn more for an LS next time or hope the IS does fill that gap better.

Majority of the people who want a sporty sedan and get turned down by the size of the IS buy the 3-series instead. Solution to the problem? Make the IS bigger.

James

As a proud GS owner I agree. I test drove the ES and as someone in my 20s there was no way I was going to get that. I can’t afford the LS and the IS is small. I’m an extremely loyal Lexus fan but without the GS I don’t know what I would have gotten. I guess I’ll need to earn more for an LS next time or hope the IS does fill that gap better.

Majority of the people who want a sporty sedan and get turned down by the size of the IS buy the 3-series instead. Solution to the problem? Make the IS bigger.

mikeavelli

Hell make it a hatchback ala the A7....make it DIFFERENT. Another Lexus sedan with another trunk no longer makes sense.

I personally do not like the hatchback/coupe/sloppy 4 door cars like Audi Sportback, BMW GranTurismo, Porsche Panamera etc... If sedan, please proper three box. That is why I do not like the new LS as much, it is not so much a three box sedan like the previous one.

ssun30

Majority of the people who want a sporty sedan and get turned down by the size of the IS buy the 3-series instead. Solution to the problem? Make the IS bigger.

A number of 3 Series Sedan buyers complain it is too big. They would like a smaller one. With the 1 Series Sedan / 2 Series GranCoupe, they now complain that the car of the right size for them is FWD instead of RWD. I agree with the view point. 3 Series/A4 are neither compact, nor executive, but somewhere a bad middle compromise.

mikeavelli

Hell make it a hatchback ala the A7....make it DIFFERENT. Another Lexus sedan with another trunk no longer makes sense.

I personally do not like the hatchback/coupe/sloppy 4 door cars like Audi Sportback, BMW GranTurismo, Porsche Panamera etc... If sedan, please proper three box. That is why I do not like the new LS as much, it is not so much a three box sedan like the previous one.

ssun30

Majority of the people who want a sporty sedan and get turned down by the size of the IS buy the 3-series instead. Solution to the problem? Make the IS bigger.

A number of 3 Series Sedan buyers complain it is too big. They would like a smaller one. With the 1 Series Sedan / 2 Series GranCoupe, they now complain that the car of the right size for them is FWD instead of RWD. I agree with the view point. 3 Series/A4 are neither compact, nor executive, but somewhere a bad middle compromise.

mikeavelli

Hell make it a hatchback ala the A7....make it DIFFERENT. Another Lexus sedan with another trunk no longer makes sense.

I personally do not like the hatchback/coupe/sloppy 4 door cars like Audi Sportback, BMW GranTurismo, Porsche Panamera etc... If sedan, please proper three box. That is why I do not like the new LS as much, it is not so much a three box sedan like the previous one.

ssun30

Majority of the people who want a sporty sedan and get turned down by the size of the IS buy the 3-series instead. Solution to the problem? Make the IS bigger.

A number of 3 Series Sedan buyers complain it is too big. They would like a smaller one. With the 1 Series Sedan / 2 Series GranCoupe, they now complain that the car of the right size for them is FWD instead of RWD. I agree with the view point. 3 Series/A4 are neither compact, nor executive, but somewhere a bad middle compromise.

Levi

A number of 3 Series Sedan buyers complain it is too big. They would like a smaller one. With the 1 Series Sedan / 2 Series GranCoupe, they now complain that the car of the right size for them is FWD instead of RWD. I agree with the view point. 3 Series/A4 are neither compact, nor executive, but somewhere a bad middle compromise.

Despite 3 series sedan buyers that occasionally complain, the bigger 3 series, C class , and A4 all outsold IS in US in 2017.