Lexus GS Sedan Not Going Anywhere, Will Continue Sales in North America

Gecko

I think that will all depend on how ES and GS are positioned. So far, LC and LS are the "new Lexus" top end products so we have yet to see how Lexus would execute something like a $40-50k ES. Part of the current problem is that both GS and ES currently look like true, three-box sedans and are only within about 30 horsepower of each other. If ES evolves and stays true to that formula, and Lexus is really (finally) willing to differentiate them, there is room I think.

Consider the GS as an ultra-dramatic four door coupe, something like a four door LC but perhaps even more striking - low window line, small greenhouse, exaggerated spindle front end and maybe starting with a V6 pumping out 350-375 horsepower and then offering the 3.5L TT V6 and the multi-stage hybrid option. That's a very different animal from ~300hp, family-friendly ES. They could also potentially ditch "F Sport" like they did with LC and make the sporting intentions standard.

Good Idea.

LS/LC:
I can see the TTV6 making it to the LC sometime down the road making it available in three trims. V6TT, V6MS-hybrid, *V8 TT*. V6 TT priced similarly as the LS. V8 TT replace the current LC 500 pricewise and LS v8TT too

IS/RC:
The RC should be redesigned with the mindset to be the coupe version of the IS. That way it can get rid of the combination of GS and IS it has right now. They need to figure a way to bring The ISF back (ISF/RCF). They should keep the boxy shape of the IS to differentiate it a little from the RC.

ES:
We saw it testing with the E-class and Audi. I think there is a reason the 5series wasn't spotted. The ES can easily compete with those two cars without taking away its characteristics. Luxury like the E-class handling like Audi since it is already FWD based. Also a regular E-class is a nice driving car focused more on comfort.

GS:
Redesign and refocus. Give it a coupe like shape that way it does not need a coupe version of its own. Make it look bold aggressive and still gorgeous in such a way that just by looking at it no sales man would be able to compare it with the ES. Give it performance to back the look up. Get rid of that GS300 weakness by putting a real 3.0 T. Make sure any future GS300 is putting up number close to the current 350. introduce the 3.5MS Hybrid. detune the V6TT in the LS enough to still compete reasonably.

Just an opinion. I still think lexus needs a 3.0L TT.

Gecko

I think that will all depend on how ES and GS are positioned. So far, LC and LS are the "new Lexus" top end products so we have yet to see how Lexus would execute something like a $40-50k ES. Part of the current problem is that both GS and ES currently look like true, three-box sedans and are only within about 30 horsepower of each other. If ES evolves and stays true to that formula, and Lexus is really (finally) willing to differentiate them, there is room I think.

Consider the GS as an ultra-dramatic four door coupe, something like a four door LC but perhaps even more striking - low window line, small greenhouse, exaggerated spindle front end and maybe starting with a V6 pumping out 350-375 horsepower and then offering the 3.5L TT V6 and the multi-stage hybrid option. That's a very different animal from ~300hp, family-friendly ES. They could also potentially ditch "F Sport" like they did with LC and make the sporting intentions standard.

Good Idea.

LS/LC:
I can see the TTV6 making it to the LC sometime down the road making it available in three trims. V6TT, V6MS-hybrid, *V8 TT*. V6 TT priced similarly as the LS. V8 TT replace the current LC 500 pricewise and LS v8TT too

IS/RC:
The RC should be redesigned with the mindset to be the coupe version of the IS. That way it can get rid of the combination of GS and IS it has right now. They need to figure a way to bring The ISF back (ISF/RCF). They should keep the boxy shape of the IS to differentiate it a little from the RC.

ES:
We saw it testing with the E-class and Audi. I think there is a reason the 5series wasn't spotted. The ES can easily compete with those two cars without taking away its characteristics. Luxury like the E-class handling like Audi since it is already FWD based. Also a regular E-class is a nice driving car focused more on comfort.

GS:
Redesign and refocus. Give it a coupe like shape that way it does not need a coupe version of its own. Make it look bold aggressive and still gorgeous in such a way that just by looking at it no sales man would be able to compare it with the ES. Give it performance to back the look up. Get rid of that GS300 weakness by putting a real 3.0 T. Make sure any future GS300 is putting up number close to the current 350. introduce the 3.5MS Hybrid. detune the V6TT in the LS enough to still compete reasonably.

Just an opinion. I still think lexus needs a 3.0L TT.

I agree, @bogglo - good post :thumbsup:

Ian Schmidt

But that will make the GS even more of a niche product, and it would also somewhat interfere with the RC then.

I think GS needs to be priced something like $64-78k, which in theory, would be a bargain for a car that competes with the CLS, A7 and 6 Series Gran Coupe. RC starts around $40k and like bogglo mentions above, I think we will see the next gen closely aligned to the IS redesign instead of being a mashup of IS, IS C and GS. There should be a big difference in engines, interior quality, features and technology between an entry level two-door coupe like the RC and a midsize four-door coupe.

So you'd end up, hypothetically, with something like:

IS: $38-50k
RC: $40-57k
ES: $43-56k
GS: $64-78k
LS: $75-100k
LC: $95-115k

IS F: $64-72k
RC F: $68-74k
GS F: $85-92k
LS F: $100-120k
LC F: $135-150k

^That pricing structure actually makes things a lot easier, IMO, than what we have now where IS bleeds into ES, which bleeds into GS. IS is pretty clearly the choice for the entry level sports coupe, ES is the logical choice for a midsize sedan, GS is a niche product before you get to the LS flagship.

I think there's also a lot of demand in other global markets for four-door coupes vs. traditional sedans, so I think Lexus could make the case with a GS globally. One of the biggest things to consider is Lexus' strategy for F cars... leaving a hole in the high performance midsize sedan arena seems weird. Going from IS F to LS F is a big jump. If someone is going to fork over the money for a car like that, I'd have to think they'd be more apt to purchase a four door coupe anyway... similar to how Audi only offers RS7 here, and not RS6. It's already an emotional purchase - I'd rather go all the way and get the sexier model.

I agree, @bogglo - good post :thumbsup:

Ian Schmidt

But that will make the GS even more of a niche product, and it would also somewhat interfere with the RC then.

I think GS needs to be priced something like $64-78k, which in theory, would be a bargain for a car that competes with the CLS, A7 and 6 Series Gran Coupe. RC starts around $40k and like bogglo mentions above, I think we will see the next gen closely aligned to the IS redesign instead of being a mashup of IS, IS C and GS. There should be a big difference in engines, interior quality, features and technology between an entry level two-door coupe like the RC and a midsize four-door coupe.

So you'd end up, hypothetically, with something like:

IS: $38-50k
RC: $40-57k
ES: $43-56k
GS: $64-78k
LS: $75-100k
LC: $95-115k

IS F: $64-72k
RC F: $68-74k
GS F: $85-92k
LS F: $100-120k
LC F: $135-150k

^That pricing structure actually makes things a lot easier, IMO, than what we have now where IS bleeds into ES, which bleeds into GS. IS is pretty clearly the choice for the entry level sports coupe, ES is the logical choice for a midsize sedan, GS is a niche product before you get to the LS flagship.

I think there's also a lot of demand in other global markets for four-door coupes vs. traditional sedans, so I think Lexus could make the case with a GS globally. One of the biggest things to consider is Lexus' strategy for F cars... leaving a hole in the high performance midsize sedan arena seems weird. Going from IS F to LS F is a big jump. If someone is going to fork over the money for a car like that, I'd have to think they'd be more apt to purchase a four door coupe anyway... similar to how Audi only offers RS7 here, and not RS6. It's already an emotional purchase - I'd rather go all the way and get the sexier model.

I agree, @bogglo - good post :thumbsup:

Ian Schmidt

But that will make the GS even more of a niche product, and it would also somewhat interfere with the RC then.

I think GS needs to be priced something like $64-78k, which in theory, would be a bargain for a car that competes with the CLS, A7 and 6 Series Gran Coupe. RC starts around $40k and like bogglo mentions above, I think we will see the next gen closely aligned to the IS redesign instead of being a mashup of IS, IS C and GS. There should be a big difference in engines, interior quality, features and technology between an entry level two-door coupe like the RC and a midsize four-door coupe.

So you'd end up, hypothetically, with something like:

IS: $38-50k
RC: $40-57k
ES: $43-56k
GS: $64-78k
LS: $75-100k
LC: $95-115k

IS F: $64-72k
RC F: $68-74k
GS F: $85-92k
LS F: $100-120k
LC F: $135-150k

^That pricing structure actually makes things a lot easier, IMO, than what we have now where IS bleeds into ES, which bleeds into GS. IS is pretty clearly the choice for the entry level sports coupe, ES is the logical choice for a midsize sedan, GS is a niche product before you get to the LS flagship.

I think there's also a lot of demand in other global markets for four-door coupes vs. traditional sedans, so I think Lexus could make the case with a GS globally. One of the biggest things to consider is Lexus' strategy for F cars... leaving a hole in the high performance midsize sedan arena seems weird. Going from IS F to LS F is a big jump. If someone is going to fork over the money for a car like that, I'd have to think they'd be more apt to purchase a four door coupe anyway... similar to how Audi only offers RS7 here, and not RS6. It's already an emotional purchase - I'd rather go all the way and get the sexier model.

Gecko

I agree, @bogglo - good post :thumbsup:



I think GS needs to be priced something like $64-78k, which in theory, would be a bargain for a car that competes with the CLS, A7 and 6 Series Gran Coupe. RC starts around $40k and like bogglo mentions above, I think we will see the next gen closely aligned to the IS redesign instead of being a mashup of IS, IS C and GS. There should be a big difference in engines, interior quality, features and technology between an entry level two-door coupe like the RC and a midsize four-door coupe.

So you'd end up, hypothetically, with something like:

IS: $38-50k
RC: $40-57k
ES: $43-56k
GS: $64-78k
LS: $75-100k
LC: $95-115k

IS F: $64-72k
RC F: $68-74k
GS F: $85-92k
LS F: $100-120k
LC F: $135-150k

^That pricing structure actually makes things a lot easier, IMO, than what we have now where IS bleeds into ES, which bleeds into GS. IS is pretty clearly the choice for the entry level sports coupe, ES is the logical choice for a midsize sedan, GS is a niche product before you get to the LS flagship.

I think there's also a lot of demand in other global markets for four-door coupes vs. traditional sedans, so I think Lexus could make the case with a GS globally. One of the biggest things to consider is Lexus' strategy for F cars... leaving a hole in the high performance midsize sedan arena seems weird. Going from IS F to LS F is a big jump. If someone is going to fork over the money for a car like that, I'd have to think they'd be more apt to purchase a four door coupe anyway... similar to how Audi only offers RS7 here, and not RS6. It's already an emotional purchase - I'd rather go all the way and get the sexier model.

If there is a 5GS, I think you are spot on with the prices.

Gecko

I agree, @bogglo - good post :thumbsup:



I think GS needs to be priced something like $64-78k, which in theory, would be a bargain for a car that competes with the CLS, A7 and 6 Series Gran Coupe. RC starts around $40k and like bogglo mentions above, I think we will see the next gen closely aligned to the IS redesign instead of being a mashup of IS, IS C and GS. There should be a big difference in engines, interior quality, features and technology between an entry level two-door coupe like the RC and a midsize four-door coupe.

So you'd end up, hypothetically, with something like:

IS: $38-50k
RC: $40-57k
ES: $43-56k
GS: $64-78k
LS: $75-100k
LC: $95-115k

IS F: $64-72k
RC F: $68-74k
GS F: $85-92k
LS F: $100-120k
LC F: $135-150k

^That pricing structure actually makes things a lot easier, IMO, than what we have now where IS bleeds into ES, which bleeds into GS. IS is pretty clearly the choice for the entry level sports coupe, ES is the logical choice for a midsize sedan, GS is a niche product before you get to the LS flagship.

I think there's also a lot of demand in other global markets for four-door coupes vs. traditional sedans, so I think Lexus could make the case with a GS globally. One of the biggest things to consider is Lexus' strategy for F cars... leaving a hole in the high performance midsize sedan arena seems weird. Going from IS F to LS F is a big jump. If someone is going to fork over the money for a car like that, I'd have to think they'd be more apt to purchase a four door coupe anyway... similar to how Audi only offers RS7 here, and not RS6. It's already an emotional purchase - I'd rather go all the way and get the sexier model.

If there is a 5GS, I think you are spot on with the prices.

Gecko

I agree, @bogglo - good post :thumbsup:



I think GS needs to be priced something like $64-78k, which in theory, would be a bargain for a car that competes with the CLS, A7 and 6 Series Gran Coupe. RC starts around $40k and like bogglo mentions above, I think we will see the next gen closely aligned to the IS redesign instead of being a mashup of IS, IS C and GS. There should be a big difference in engines, interior quality, features and technology between an entry level two-door coupe like the RC and a midsize four-door coupe.

So you'd end up, hypothetically, with something like:

IS: $38-50k
RC: $40-57k
ES: $43-56k
GS: $64-78k
LS: $75-100k
LC: $95-115k

IS F: $64-72k
RC F: $68-74k
GS F: $85-92k
LS F: $100-120k
LC F: $135-150k

^That pricing structure actually makes things a lot easier, IMO, than what we have now where IS bleeds into ES, which bleeds into GS. IS is pretty clearly the choice for the entry level sports coupe, ES is the logical choice for a midsize sedan, GS is a niche product before you get to the LS flagship.

I think there's also a lot of demand in other global markets for four-door coupes vs. traditional sedans, so I think Lexus could make the case with a GS globally. One of the biggest things to consider is Lexus' strategy for F cars... leaving a hole in the high performance midsize sedan arena seems weird. Going from IS F to LS F is a big jump. If someone is going to fork over the money for a car like that, I'd have to think they'd be more apt to purchase a four door coupe anyway... similar to how Audi only offers RS7 here, and not RS6. It's already an emotional purchase - I'd rather go all the way and get the sexier model.

If there is a 5GS, I think you are spot on with the prices.

That ES pricing is way up there and the market will not respond well to it. Think about it, the ES200 is into (top trim) Camry price territory. And there's just no way a new entry-level ES can be more expensive than a well-equipped ES350. The ES needs to be cheap, unless the IS gets a LWB.

That ES pricing is way up there and the market will not respond well to it. Think about it, the ES200 is into (top trim) Camry price territory. And there's just no way a new entry-level ES can be more expensive than a well-equipped ES350. The ES needs to be cheap, unless the IS gets a LWB.

That ES pricing is way up there and the market will not respond well to it. Think about it, the ES200 is into (top trim) Camry price territory. And there's just no way a new entry-level ES can be more expensive than a well-equipped ES350. The ES needs to be cheap, unless the IS gets a LWB.

ssun30

That ES pricing is way up there and the market will not respond well to it. Think about it, the ES200 is into (top trim) Camry price territory. And there's just no way a new entry-level ES can be more expensive than a well-equipped ES350. The ES needs to be cheap, unless the IS gets a LWB.

Nobody in North America really buys a base $39k ES... most have transaction prices around $42-45k. If they do end up offering a base I4, then I think that will lower the base price a bit, but I do expect the new car to be a little more expensive as they try to elevate it a bit to compete against E Class and A6. Even then, they can still be a value leader.

ssun30

That ES pricing is way up there and the market will not respond well to it. Think about it, the ES200 is into (top trim) Camry price territory. And there's just no way a new entry-level ES can be more expensive than a well-equipped ES350. The ES needs to be cheap, unless the IS gets a LWB.

Nobody in North America really buys a base $39k ES... most have transaction prices around $42-45k. If they do end up offering a base I4, then I think that will lower the base price a bit, but I do expect the new car to be a little more expensive as they try to elevate it a bit to compete against E Class and A6. Even then, they can still be a value leader.

ssun30

That ES pricing is way up there and the market will not respond well to it. Think about it, the ES200 is into (top trim) Camry price territory. And there's just no way a new entry-level ES can be more expensive than a well-equipped ES350. The ES needs to be cheap, unless the IS gets a LWB.

Nobody in North America really buys a base $39k ES... most have transaction prices around $42-45k. If they do end up offering a base I4, then I think that will lower the base price a bit, but I do expect the new car to be a little more expensive as they try to elevate it a bit to compete against E Class and A6. Even then, they can still be a value leader.

Gecko

Nobody in North America really buys a base $39k ES... most have transaction prices around $42-45k. If they do end up offering a base I4, then I think that will lower the base price a bit, but I do expect the new car to be a little more expensive as they try to elevate it a bit to compete against E Class and A6. Even then, they can still be a value leader.

Sorry for apparently ignoring the fact that the German competitors have elevated the price of their mid-size sedans. Over $50k for a base I4 5 Series/E-Class/A6 looks suicidal for a market that's rapidly moving away from sedans (think about it, the LS500 is "only" 40% more expensive while having V8 performance). The ES now undercuts them by over $10k while offering a V6. There's some room for the next ES to go up indeed.

Gecko

Nobody in North America really buys a base $39k ES... most have transaction prices around $42-45k. If they do end up offering a base I4, then I think that will lower the base price a bit, but I do expect the new car to be a little more expensive as they try to elevate it a bit to compete against E Class and A6. Even then, they can still be a value leader.

Sorry for apparently ignoring the fact that the German competitors have elevated the price of their mid-size sedans. Over $50k for a base I4 5 Series/E-Class/A6 looks suicidal for a market that's rapidly moving away from sedans (think about it, the LS500 is "only" 40% more expensive while having V8 performance). The ES now undercuts them by over $10k while offering a V6. There's some room for the next ES to go up indeed.

Gecko

Nobody in North America really buys a base $39k ES... most have transaction prices around $42-45k. If they do end up offering a base I4, then I think that will lower the base price a bit, but I do expect the new car to be a little more expensive as they try to elevate it a bit to compete against E Class and A6. Even then, they can still be a value leader.

Sorry for apparently ignoring the fact that the German competitors have elevated the price of their mid-size sedans. Over $50k for a base I4 5 Series/E-Class/A6 looks suicidal for a market that's rapidly moving away from sedans (think about it, the LS500 is "only" 40% more expensive while having V8 performance). The ES now undercuts them by over $10k while offering a V6. There's some room for the next ES to go up indeed.

ssun30

Sorry for apparently ignoring the fact that the German competitors have elevated the price of their mid-size sedans. Over $50k for a base I4 5 Series/E-Class/A6 looks suicidal for a market that's rapidly moving away from sedans (think about it, the LS500 is "only" 40% more expensive while having V8 performance). The ES now undercuts them by over $10k while offering a V6. There's some room for the next ES to go up indeed.

No worries at all... that is my point with how Lexus has an opportunity to succeed with both ES and GS. E Class and 5 Series are ~$65K+ USD with decent options these days, and that is for 4cyl E300 and 530i as you note. I think A6 is a little less expensive. Does a midsize luxury sedan really need to cost that much money? We saw Lexus make a value play with the new LS and I think they have another opportunity here.

ES as the de facto midsize sedan, $42-56k with 2.0T, V6, hybrid, luxury package, F Sport package, AWD optional, will be a ton of car for most people shopping in this segment. Lexus will probably put the 12" screen in it, HUD, LSS+, beautiful interior (think something between RX and LS), Mark Levinson option, probably panoramic roof, etc. I think it will hit all of the big touch points for shoppers while being $10-20k less than a comparably equipped E/5. Theoretically:

ES 300: 2.0T - base price around $40,895
ES 300h: Li-ion 4cylinder hybrid from Camry LE - base price around $42,595
ES 350/400: either new 3.0T V6 or 2GR-FKS 3.5L V6 - base price around $46,395
AWD: Add $1,850
F Sport package: Add $3,500 (Lexus could make AWD standard on F Sport - just a thought)
Luxury package: Add $5,865
Figure another $2-3k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.

There are really no other cars that offer that type of value here right now, aside from maybe Genesis? Depending on how Lexus handles the ES, I don't know that I'd consider the Buick LaCross to still be a competitor 100%. A6 is coming to mind as the most direct competitor. I can see a loaded V6 ES going for somewhere around $54k... which would be a ton of car for that much money compared to E300/530i, unless you just have to have RWD.


Then you can have GS as a niche product with standard turbo V6, optional multi stage hybrid, GS F, ultra dramatic styling inside and out, top end tech:

GS 400: 3.0L turbo V6 - base price $63,895
GS 500h: multi-stage hybrid V6 - base price $68,895
GS F: 5.0L TT V8 - base price $85,395
F Sport Performance Package: Add $8k (active sway bars, TVD, rear wheel steer, etc)
Luxury package: Add $6k
Another $3-5k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.


As a consumer shopping for something midsize, you have the option to get a E/5 quality car for $20k less (ES) or something really niche and special for the same amount of money in GS.

ssun30

Sorry for apparently ignoring the fact that the German competitors have elevated the price of their mid-size sedans. Over $50k for a base I4 5 Series/E-Class/A6 looks suicidal for a market that's rapidly moving away from sedans (think about it, the LS500 is "only" 40% more expensive while having V8 performance). The ES now undercuts them by over $10k while offering a V6. There's some room for the next ES to go up indeed.

No worries at all... that is my point with how Lexus has an opportunity to succeed with both ES and GS. E Class and 5 Series are ~$65K+ USD with decent options these days, and that is for 4cyl E300 and 530i as you note. I think A6 is a little less expensive. Does a midsize luxury sedan really need to cost that much money? We saw Lexus make a value play with the new LS and I think they have another opportunity here.

ES as the de facto midsize sedan, $42-56k with 2.0T, V6, hybrid, luxury package, F Sport package, AWD optional, will be a ton of car for most people shopping in this segment. Lexus will probably put the 12" screen in it, HUD, LSS+, beautiful interior (think something between RX and LS), Mark Levinson option, probably panoramic roof, etc. I think it will hit all of the big touch points for shoppers while being $10-20k less than a comparably equipped E/5. Theoretically:

ES 300: 2.0T - base price around $40,895
ES 300h: Li-ion 4cylinder hybrid from Camry LE - base price around $42,595
ES 350/400: either new 3.0T V6 or 2GR-FKS 3.5L V6 - base price around $46,395
AWD: Add $1,850
F Sport package: Add $3,500 (Lexus could make AWD standard on F Sport - just a thought)
Luxury package: Add $5,865
Figure another $2-3k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.

There are really no other cars that offer that type of value here right now, aside from maybe Genesis? Depending on how Lexus handles the ES, I don't know that I'd consider the Buick LaCross to still be a competitor 100%. A6 is coming to mind as the most direct competitor. I can see a loaded V6 ES going for somewhere around $54k... which would be a ton of car for that much money compared to E300/530i, unless you just have to have RWD.


Then you can have GS as a niche product with standard turbo V6, optional multi stage hybrid, GS F, ultra dramatic styling inside and out, top end tech:

GS 400: 3.0L turbo V6 - base price $63,895
GS 500h: multi-stage hybrid V6 - base price $68,895
GS F: 5.0L TT V8 - base price $85,395
F Sport Performance Package: Add $8k (active sway bars, TVD, rear wheel steer, etc)
Luxury package: Add $6k
Another $3-5k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.


As a consumer shopping for something midsize, you have the option to get a E/5 quality car for $20k less (ES) or something really niche and special for the same amount of money in GS.

ssun30

Sorry for apparently ignoring the fact that the German competitors have elevated the price of their mid-size sedans. Over $50k for a base I4 5 Series/E-Class/A6 looks suicidal for a market that's rapidly moving away from sedans (think about it, the LS500 is "only" 40% more expensive while having V8 performance). The ES now undercuts them by over $10k while offering a V6. There's some room for the next ES to go up indeed.

No worries at all... that is my point with how Lexus has an opportunity to succeed with both ES and GS. E Class and 5 Series are ~$65K+ USD with decent options these days, and that is for 4cyl E300 and 530i as you note. I think A6 is a little less expensive. Does a midsize luxury sedan really need to cost that much money? We saw Lexus make a value play with the new LS and I think they have another opportunity here.

ES as the de facto midsize sedan, $42-56k with 2.0T, V6, hybrid, luxury package, F Sport package, AWD optional, will be a ton of car for most people shopping in this segment. Lexus will probably put the 12" screen in it, HUD, LSS+, beautiful interior (think something between RX and LS), Mark Levinson option, probably panoramic roof, etc. I think it will hit all of the big touch points for shoppers while being $10-20k less than a comparably equipped E/5. Theoretically:

ES 300: 2.0T - base price around $40,895
ES 300h: Li-ion 4cylinder hybrid from Camry LE - base price around $42,595
ES 350/400: either new 3.0T V6 or 2GR-FKS 3.5L V6 - base price around $46,395
AWD: Add $1,850
F Sport package: Add $3,500 (Lexus could make AWD standard on F Sport - just a thought)
Luxury package: Add $5,865
Figure another $2-3k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.

There are really no other cars that offer that type of value here right now, aside from maybe Genesis? Depending on how Lexus handles the ES, I don't know that I'd consider the Buick LaCross to still be a competitor 100%. A6 is coming to mind as the most direct competitor. I can see a loaded V6 ES going for somewhere around $54k... which would be a ton of car for that much money compared to E300/530i, unless you just have to have RWD.


Then you can have GS as a niche product with standard turbo V6, optional multi stage hybrid, GS F, ultra dramatic styling inside and out, top end tech:

GS 400: 3.0L turbo V6 - base price $63,895
GS 500h: multi-stage hybrid V6 - base price $68,895
GS F: 5.0L TT V8 - base price $85,395
F Sport Performance Package: Add $8k (active sway bars, TVD, rear wheel steer, etc)
Luxury package: Add $6k
Another $3-5k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.


As a consumer shopping for something midsize, you have the option to get a E/5 quality car for $20k less (ES) or something really niche and special for the same amount of money in GS.

Gecko

No worries at all... that is my point with how Lexus has an opportunity to succeed with both ES and GS. E Class and 5 Series are ~$65K+ USD with decent options these days, and that is for 4cyl E300 and 530i as you note. I think A6 is a little less expensive. Does a midsize luxury sedan really need to cost that much money? We saw Lexus make a value play with the new LS and I think they have another opportunity here.

ES as the de facto midsize sedan, $42-56k with 2.0T, V6, hybrid, luxury package, F Sport package, AWD optional, will be a ton of car for most people shopping in this segment. Lexus will probably put the 12" screen in it, HUD, LSS+, beautiful interior (think something between RX and LS), Mark Levinson option, probably panoramic roof, etc. I think it will hit all of the big touch points for shoppers while being $10-20k less than a comparably equipped E/5. Theoretically:

ES 300: 2.0T - base price around $40,895
ES 300h: Li-ion 4cylinder hybrid from Camry LE - base price around $42,595
ES 350/400: either new 3.0T V6 or 2GR-FKS 3.5L V6 - base price around $46,395
AWD: Add $1,850
F Sport package: Add $3,500 (Lexus could make AWD standard on F Sport - just a thought)
Luxury package: Add $5,865
Figure another $2-3k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.

There are really no other cars that offer that type of value here right now, aside from maybe Genesis? Depending on how Lexus handles the ES, I don't know that I'd consider the Buick LaCross to still be a competitor 100%. A6 is coming to mind as the most direct competitor. I can see a loaded V6 ES going for somewhere around $54k... which would be a ton of car for that much money compared to E300/530i, unless you just have to have RWD.


Then you can have GS as a niche product with standard turbo V6, optional multi stage hybrid, GS F, ultra dramatic styling inside and out, top end tech:

GS 400: 3.0L turbo V6 - base price $63,895
GS 500h: multi-stage hybrid V6 - base price $68,895
GS F: 5.0L TT V8 - base price $85,395
F Sport Performance Package: Add $8k (active sway bars, TVD, rear wheel steer, etc)
Luxury package: Add $6k
Another $3-5k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.


As a consumer shopping for something midsize, you have the option to get a E/5 quality car for $20k less (ES) or something really niche and special for the same amount of money in GS.

That's why I said that price is so spot on. The LS might not take the crown from the S-class, but looking at the LC and LS interiors, Lexus can easily take the crown for the midsize sedan if they don't hold back. And they can throw in the Apple/Android carplay in the mix so every one can shot up. I personally would prefer a straight up screen mirroring option (that way the use is not limited to certain apps but all apps on the phone).

Gecko

No worries at all... that is my point with how Lexus has an opportunity to succeed with both ES and GS. E Class and 5 Series are ~$65K+ USD with decent options these days, and that is for 4cyl E300 and 530i as you note. I think A6 is a little less expensive. Does a midsize luxury sedan really need to cost that much money? We saw Lexus make a value play with the new LS and I think they have another opportunity here.

ES as the de facto midsize sedan, $42-56k with 2.0T, V6, hybrid, luxury package, F Sport package, AWD optional, will be a ton of car for most people shopping in this segment. Lexus will probably put the 12" screen in it, HUD, LSS+, beautiful interior (think something between RX and LS), Mark Levinson option, probably panoramic roof, etc. I think it will hit all of the big touch points for shoppers while being $10-20k less than a comparably equipped E/5. Theoretically:

ES 300: 2.0T - base price around $40,895
ES 300h: Li-ion 4cylinder hybrid from Camry LE - base price around $42,595
ES 350/400: either new 3.0T V6 or 2GR-FKS 3.5L V6 - base price around $46,395
AWD: Add $1,850
F Sport package: Add $3,500 (Lexus could make AWD standard on F Sport - just a thought)
Luxury package: Add $5,865
Figure another $2-3k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.

There are really no other cars that offer that type of value here right now, aside from maybe Genesis? Depending on how Lexus handles the ES, I don't know that I'd consider the Buick LaCross to still be a competitor 100%. A6 is coming to mind as the most direct competitor. I can see a loaded V6 ES going for somewhere around $54k... which would be a ton of car for that much money compared to E300/530i, unless you just have to have RWD.


Then you can have GS as a niche product with standard turbo V6, optional multi stage hybrid, GS F, ultra dramatic styling inside and out, top end tech:

GS 400: 3.0L turbo V6 - base price $63,895
GS 500h: multi-stage hybrid V6 - base price $68,895
GS F: 5.0L TT V8 - base price $85,395
F Sport Performance Package: Add $8k (active sway bars, TVD, rear wheel steer, etc)
Luxury package: Add $6k
Another $3-5k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.


As a consumer shopping for something midsize, you have the option to get a E/5 quality car for $20k less (ES) or something really niche and special for the same amount of money in GS.

That's why I said that price is so spot on. The LS might not take the crown from the S-class, but looking at the LC and LS interiors, Lexus can easily take the crown for the midsize sedan if they don't hold back. And they can throw in the Apple/Android carplay in the mix so every one can shot up. I personally would prefer a straight up screen mirroring option (that way the use is not limited to certain apps but all apps on the phone).

Gecko

No worries at all... that is my point with how Lexus has an opportunity to succeed with both ES and GS. E Class and 5 Series are ~$65K+ USD with decent options these days, and that is for 4cyl E300 and 530i as you note. I think A6 is a little less expensive. Does a midsize luxury sedan really need to cost that much money? We saw Lexus make a value play with the new LS and I think they have another opportunity here.

ES as the de facto midsize sedan, $42-56k with 2.0T, V6, hybrid, luxury package, F Sport package, AWD optional, will be a ton of car for most people shopping in this segment. Lexus will probably put the 12" screen in it, HUD, LSS+, beautiful interior (think something between RX and LS), Mark Levinson option, probably panoramic roof, etc. I think it will hit all of the big touch points for shoppers while being $10-20k less than a comparably equipped E/5. Theoretically:

ES 300: 2.0T - base price around $40,895
ES 300h: Li-ion 4cylinder hybrid from Camry LE - base price around $42,595
ES 350/400: either new 3.0T V6 or 2GR-FKS 3.5L V6 - base price around $46,395
AWD: Add $1,850
F Sport package: Add $3,500 (Lexus could make AWD standard on F Sport - just a thought)
Luxury package: Add $5,865
Figure another $2-3k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.

There are really no other cars that offer that type of value here right now, aside from maybe Genesis? Depending on how Lexus handles the ES, I don't know that I'd consider the Buick LaCross to still be a competitor 100%. A6 is coming to mind as the most direct competitor. I can see a loaded V6 ES going for somewhere around $54k... which would be a ton of car for that much money compared to E300/530i, unless you just have to have RWD.


Then you can have GS as a niche product with standard turbo V6, optional multi stage hybrid, GS F, ultra dramatic styling inside and out, top end tech:

GS 400: 3.0L turbo V6 - base price $63,895
GS 500h: multi-stage hybrid V6 - base price $68,895
GS F: 5.0L TT V8 - base price $85,395
F Sport Performance Package: Add $8k (active sway bars, TVD, rear wheel steer, etc)
Luxury package: Add $6k
Another $3-5k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.


As a consumer shopping for something midsize, you have the option to get a E/5 quality car for $20k less (ES) or something really niche and special for the same amount of money in GS.

That's why I said that price is so spot on. The LS might not take the crown from the S-class, but looking at the LC and LS interiors, Lexus can easily take the crown for the midsize sedan if they don't hold back. And they can throw in the Apple/Android carplay in the mix so every one can shot up. I personally would prefer a straight up screen mirroring option (that way the use is not limited to certain apps but all apps on the phone).

Lexus must keep the GS 450h as is, a "all in one" car far away from everything else !

Lexus must keep the GS 450h as is, a "all in one" car far away from everything else !

Lexus must keep the GS 450h as is, a "all in one" car far away from everything else !

Honestly I just bought a new GS 350 F Sport black on black and honestly this car is so sick. I mean it doesn't have the 0-60 of others but in manual mode and on Sport + the engine sounds so amazing! They have to bring this car back! I mean look at it! Love seeing it everyday in my garage and love driving it. 5th generation please!

Honestly I just bought a new GS 350 F Sport black on black and honestly this car is so sick. I mean it doesn't have the 0-60 of others but in manual mode and on Sport + the engine sounds so amazing! They have to bring this car back! I mean look at it! Love seeing it everyday in my garage and love driving it. 5th generation please!

Honestly I just bought a new GS 350 F Sport black on black and honestly this car is so sick. I mean it doesn't have the 0-60 of others but in manual mode and on Sport + the engine sounds so amazing! They have to bring this car back! I mean look at it! Love seeing it everyday in my garage and love driving it. 5th generation please!

Gecko

Then you can have GS as a niche product with standard turbo V6, optional multi stage hybrid, GS F, ultra dramatic styling inside and out, top end tech:

GS 400: 3.0L turbo V6 - base price $63,895
GS 500h: multi-stage hybrid V6 - base price $68,895
GS F: 5.0L TT V8 - base price $85,395
F Sport Performance Package: Add $8k (active sway bars, TVD, rear wheel steer, etc)
Luxury package: Add $6k
Another $3-5k each for things like premium package, cold weather package, etc.


As a consumer shopping for something midsize, you have the option to get a E/5 quality car for $20k less (ES) or something really niche and special for the same amount of money in GS.

Why would it have no 2.0t and 3.5l NA engine options though?

Main thing for next GS is to make it stand out. Then sales will come.

But it will certainly offer range of options because most buyers dont care about hp, hence 2.0t in Germans selling so well. Offering 3.0l tt as base does not make it any cheaper, 2.0t would still likely be $3k-$5k cheaper vehicle.